For Women Only [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Lindley

05-16-2003, 10:32 AM

I would like to hear from our Si-Moi's and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun.

We started out in what I will refer to as "the garage" back in 2000, no windows on a 19' by 60' concrete floor. The building was tucked away behind a popular restaurant in town. Although it was clean, it was more like a "Marvin Hagler" environement. We were there until July of 2002. During this time, we had 3 female students join . We have since moved to a location on the main street of the town and have wooden floors, mirrors and a more professional looking 1200 square foot training area. We are about to get our first female student at this facility this weekend.

We have had over 90 students to date with less than 10 of them being women. We keep a database of inquiries and I have about 15 or so I would like to call on. I am looking for some ideas that might attract them.

Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?

How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?

Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training or make you decide to leave.

Thanks

Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

WCis4me

05-16-2003, 11:46 AM

Hi Lindley,
I will answer your questions as best I can from my own perspective.

I would like to hear from our Si-Moi's and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun.
For me it was wanting to lose weight, get fit, self-defence, be a better part of my spouses world, be a good example for my children (life does not end in your 30's it begins lol). The fact that I was already exposed (outsider looking in) to various martial art styles made the decision to choose Wing Chun an easy one. Seeing the comparisons of the effectiveness.......the visuals of that......made the difference.

Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?

For me personally it doesn't. I am aware of other women who do prefer all women classes rather than co-ed classes for gyms and such though. I think it depends largely on the reception they receive within the class. I know I would personally be offended if I was not taken, or percieved not to be taken, as seriously as my kung fu brothers. An example might be if my Sifu didn't give me as much insight as he did with my male counterparts (blew me off more consistantly for lack of a better term). I feel my willingness to remain part of the class/school would reflect how I was received and responded to by the class/school. Another point on that note is that when women go to train they are just as serious and intent about it as men are (even though their reasoning behind it may or may not differ). To be not treated with the same respect (being judged and stereo-typed) in any regard would be offensive and cause to seek a more comfortable and adaptive environment.

How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?
Only in that it would make me wonder why women were not wanting to be a part of that school. This certainly wouldn't imply that I thought the school had a problem. I am sure many from this forum can attest that women are largely outnumbered in this art. I think it is because 'kung fu' in general is perceived by the non martial art world to be much more hard core than some other more 'gentle, flowery' arts.

Specifically the turn ons are:

-Physical Fitness that is enjoyable (lol ok mostly)
-Ability to defend against attackers that are much bigger and stronger, a deep feeling of personal security is HUGE to me and I suspect most women.
-Respect, dedication, knowledge, patience, praise and constructive criticism from my Sifu.

Specifically the turn offs are:

Haven't had any yet, but the things I mentioned hypothetically at the beginning of my reply would certainly fit the turn off description. Anything that was opposite to the turn on portion of my reply would be a turn off lol.

Thank you for starting this thread it was fun to respond to something that I actually have some deep insight to ;)
All the best in your endeavors with your school,
Vicky

05-16-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Lindley
I would like to hear from our Si-Moi's and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun.

We started out in what I will refer to as "the garage" back in 2000, no windows on a 19' by 60' concrete floor. The building was tucked away behind a popular restaurant in town. Although it was clean, it was more like a "Marvin Hagler" environement. We were there until July of 2002. During this time, we had 3 female students join . We have since moved to a location on the main street of the town and have wooden floors, mirrors and a more professional looking 1200 square foot training area. We are about to get our first female student at this facility this weekend.

We have had over 90 students to date with less than 10 of them being women. We keep a database of inquiries and I have about 15 or so I would like to call on. I am looking for some ideas that might attract them.

An insightful way to examine the question may be to explore through another question: Why an interest in attracting women students? Are there particular benefits for them? For the school? For the art? What, if anything, might be different with a larger proportion of women in the class? How would they be received? Just food for thought stuff.

Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?

Based on how this is phrased, not entirely sure I'm clear on the question. If the question is about whether or not an all women's class is favored over a co-ed class, I definitely and distinctly prefer the latter.

The only reasons I can remotely fathom myself being a supporter of all-women's classes are:

a) As a temporary remedial alternative for women with some kind of "issues.” This, by the way, is not my area of greatest energy, especially as it may imply something outside the direct realm of Wing Chun that needs to be dealt with. Possibly with the aid of professionals; social work and psychotherapy, as examples, are entirely separate issues from training in Wing Chun, IMHO. Being qualified to teach or coach or simply share in Wing Chun does not automatically qualify us in other areas.

Segregating women for the duration of their training won’t help them to face the challenges of reality or achieve their highest levels of excellence. For this and other reasons, I’m a bit hardpressed to support even this type of reasoning for a women’s only class. I only hedge on the side of open mindedness because I do realize that women (and men) sometimes have legitimate “issues” to deal with and overcome, which shouldn't necessarily preclude their opportunity to learn and train. Still, my general take (exceptions aside) is that when it comes to Wing Chun class or training in general, “issues” are better left at the door along with egos and other baggage.

I realize I’m not the best candidate for the “Ms. Sensitivity” award, LOL. Perhaps I maintain a bit too strict a focus on the training as opposed to the human side of things at times. Too bad. ;)

b) To provide reasonable and serious women some relief and a venue apart from an overly machismo, irrational, or unproductive training environment. In which case any rational and balanced men who deserve some relief and an improved training environment should also be welcomed, IMHO. In general, this is the only legitimate excuse I would support, and then only under extenuating circumstances. But even this is more a matter of maturity and reasonableness in training than a gender issue.

Fortunately, neither of these ("a" or "b") are or have been issues for me.

c) An option I've never pursued, but have given consideration to, is an occasional "women's training day." I don't see a need or overriding benefit for a steady diet of this. However, since we women do share some particular issues and concerns in common with respect to training, self-defense, etc., this might provide some value, and could allow us a more open opportunity to exchange on things of particular relevance and importance to us. The kinds of concerns which tend to get drowned in the more usual and exciting din about MMA, bar room brawls, who-can-beat-who, who-can-beat-everyone, what-if scenarios, etc., LOL.

How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?

There have been times when I was the only female, and even now during many individual classes I still am. It doesn't really affect me one way or the other, as long as the people I am working with are mature and serious. That is not at all to imply that I don’t enjoy a wicked sense of humor. ;) Seriousness and humor don't have to be mutually exclusive.

There have been a few occasions when a younger or older male has come to the class with "issues" of their own regarding females in general, females of my age and stature, or just me in particular, LOL. Fortunately, we've thus far been able to manage through those well enough.

Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training or make you decide to leave.

Some Turn Ons:

A rational, serious, and mature training culture and environment, including considerations for safety and overall well-being
A capable and credible instructor
Adult classes
A training methodology suitable and practical for women, rather than an expectation for women to become and develop more like men (i.e., relying on prevailing strength and athleticism). As in, "what's with the pushups and deadweights??" :rolleyes: We are, after all, supposed to be training in Wing Chun. ;)
Training that is physically consistent with the principles espoused (keenly related to the bullet above). This is in contrast to schools which “say” one thing, but demonstrate and demand something contradictory in practice.
A reasonably safe location (for the coming and going)
Mutual respect
Plenty of individualized help and 1:1 instruction from teacher, qualified seniors, or both
Teaching paced appropriately to my personal rate of development
The same things that are "turn ons" for individual males, may be the same for females

Some Turn Offs:

Lack of seriousness about the training in general
Taking the women's training (in particular) less seriously than the men's, or being treated "differently" on the basis of gender (as opposed to individual differences)
Unreasonable demands or expectations, especially as regards safety, risk of injuries, or overall well-being
Too much testosterone in any of its manifestations
Thoughtlessness, unkindness, and inconsideration
Emphasis on "fight club" mentality (in contrast to increasing "fighting capabilities")
Too much emphasis on training credentials or certificates, resume's, worshipful titles, etc. ... if someone is trying too hard to impress me or command my respect, chances are they won't
Expectations of hero worship or cult-like servility. Also unreasonable demands on students beyond actual training (e.g., in terms of time, money, services, etc.)
Lack of respect for life's demands and responsibilities outside of Wing chun
Excessive commercialism
Big egos, and Alphas that take themselves all seriously (I tend to either gag or laugh)
Holding back, disingenuous, or uneven teaching
The same types of things that turn off individual males, will turn off individual females

Some things that don't really matter

The decor
Other than working with mature adults, age doesn’t matter (18 –108 … it all works for me)
Uniforms, belts, ranks
Tournament participation
Fighting history (this may actually play against a school on the ethics scorecard)
Size of school (unless it is too big)
Proportion of women to men

I’m sure there is more, but these are a few thoughts for starters.

As with most things, it boils down to a matter individual tastes, values and, as always, balance. Much less an issue of gender than it may seem, IMHO.

Thanks

Sure, and welcome.

Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

You too.

Regards,
- kj

hakka mui

05-18-2003, 07:52 AM

Hi Lindley

"I would like to hear from our Si-Moi's and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun."

I started learning wing chun because I wanted to learn how to fight and how to feel more comfortable when dealing with physical confrontations. The attraction was that I had been told that wing chun was developed by a woman to enable other women to defend themselves against a bigger, stronger opponent.

"Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?"

Not sure what you are asking here but my personal preference is for integrated male/female classes. However when other women have turned up we have had women-only sessions in addition to our normal class schedule.

"How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?"

I started at my school (and the one before that) as the only woman in the class so I can’t really say that it affects me one way or another.

"Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training or make you decide to leave."

Nothing really to add to Wcis4me or kj statements, both very well put. :D

Good luck with your training.

Phenix

05-18-2003, 08:34 AM

Hi KJ and other sisters...

IMHO, MEN WCK can be using hard muscles.... look like robot..... tiger or crane from Shao Lin...... pokemon.. or anything one likes to fantasy.:D

As for Woman's WCK, I belive one needs to start with breathing and understand one's body and its natural rythm. Bottom line, Woman's body is more "figile" (not in a looking down sense, since Woman needs to carry baby and breast feed and take care of the kids...... A very important mission).

For example, the chest structure for Woman should not be tigthen with elbow to center line which certainly will cause problem in the long run...

So, more then men, one needs to make the best use of "nature."

For a start, IMHO, take a look at
http://www.breathing.com/articles/gay-hendricks.htm
http://www.breathing.com/tests.htm

And ask the question, is my SLT accord to nature in both breathing, spine movement.... IF not let's seach for a "nature way". Today, we have lots of good research like above website to supply and support us on the path to return to nature.

Ancient myth of "doing this and somedays sometimes will turn one into...." should no longer taking for granted.
Some myth can damage body and cause health problems. We certainly wants all mom looks great and health.:D

However, our ancestors, IMHO, I belive did a very good design in SLT which is very natural.

other opinion,

if you have high blood presure, DONT raise your hand above your eyes and pay attention or forcing concentration on you eye browse area....... as some do in SLT. That cause problem.

If you have low blood pressure, Don't sink your yee to the bottom of your feet as K1 point for long time. That cause problem.

Hendrik

05-18-2003, 09:51 AM

It appears that WCis4me, hakka mui, and I are in general harmony on the subject. While individual preferences, goals, and interests will vary, perhaps we are at least a reasonably representative, albeit small sample set, especially regarding the importance and common themes of attitude and the seriousness of our work. [Greets, gals. :)]

I would add that it is also enjoyable working, sharing, and training with many of our Wing Chun brothers, who help us in so many intentional and unintentional ways, besides bringing balance to the work. Among them are a special few, like Hendrik as case in point, who especially hold our best interests sincerely to heart. Such good will is much appreciated.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

WCis4me

05-18-2003, 10:23 AM

KJ wrote:

I would add that it is also enjoyable working, sharing, and training with many of our Wing Chun brothers, who help us in so many intentional and unintentional ways, besides bringing balance to the work.
I couldn't agree more!
Vicky

dragon lady

05-19-2003, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by Lindley

"Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?"

We actually tried a seperate class for women at our school and no one really came to it. Although, we do usually end up partnering a new female student with a senior one for her first few classes if there is one available.

"How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?"

When I started training, our school was very very small and I was usually the only girl there. I didn't mind at all. There are still times when I am the only female in the room and am often leading class. It affects me in the sense that I am aware of it when I need to be...like when it makes others uncomfortable and I have to address it.

One of my favorite scenarios to present the men folk who have trouble working with women is as follows:

So it has been ingrained within "you" to "not hit a girl"... consider this: I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have "given" me position instead of making me "earn" it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is "your" size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as "woman found in trunk" you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.

Granted, this is just something to break the ice and try to get the big picture on the screen.

"Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training "

Much agree with KJ's list so won't be rudundant

"or make you decide to leave."

---too much about politics and not enouch Wing Chun.

Thanks

Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

05-19-2003, 03:13 AM

Hi dragon lady,

Originally posted by dragon lady
So it has been ingrained within "you" to "not hit a girl"... consider this: I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have "given" me position instead of making me "earn" it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is "your" size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as "woman found in trunk" you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.

Great ice breaker. You can bet I'm going to plagiarize the nuances of this one, LOL.

---too much about politics and not enouch Wing Chun.

Amen to that. :rolleyes:

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Alpha Dog

05-19-2003, 05:29 AM

Please oh please? <wags tail impatiently>

05-19-2003, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Please oh please? <wags tail impatiently>

You've obviously received some excellent obedience training, LOL.

Lindley is the one to consult with since he set the constraints of the thread. I think it's apparent that I and the other ladies are pro co-ed.

Regards,
- kj

EnterTheWhip

05-19-2003, 07:32 AM

I would just like to say, I enjoy beating the ladies in my class. It's quite an ego booster.

Alpha Dog

05-19-2003, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by dragon lady
I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have "given" me position instead of making me "earn" it. I now have a complete false sense of security.

I would like some clarification on "not given me any real energies to deal with." What in Dragon Lady's mind constitutes "real energies?" Does this mean force? Because if so, she should be happy as brute strength isn't part of WC training (chi sao at any rate). The lighter the touch the better!

Second, if the guys have "given... position" what did she do in response to teach them not to do that?

Finally, on the issue of security -- I think more feedback from other women who train would be interesting, because I train with women and would like understand their expectations of their chi sao partners.

Do women who study WC want to be treated the same as male students, or do you want to train differently to meet more specific needs? I think this does need clarification and should be articulated in class so everyone is on the same page and no one is feeling (a) disrespected or (b) that s/he isn't getting what s/he wants out of class.

Lindley

05-19-2003, 08:24 AM

The objective of this post is to get honest feedback from female practicioners. which is to serve as valuable information
for instructors reading this. Useless comments will be (and already have been) reported.

In regard to the question of what women expect during their training: Training, with Chi Sao in particular, should be "cooperative". Male or female, when playing any exericse in class, should communicate what they want to train. If you are training "all out" against your Kung Fu brothers and
sisters at all times, then you are missing the essence of the training. You will not be "focused" and end up affecting your ego instead of developing yourself or your partner. Even in 'Free sparring" or playing free chi sao, your partner should be advised as to what your training goals are.

Kung Fu is intelligent. Use your mind.

WCis4me

05-19-2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by dragon lady
So it has been ingrained within "you" to "not hit a girl"... consider this: I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have "given" me position instead of making me "earn" it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is "your" size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as "woman found in trunk" you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.
>I don't think there can be a better analagy of why we want to be trained in a co-ed environment with the same degree of intensity.

Alpha Dog Wrote:

Can guys come in now?
Please oh please? <wags tail impatiently>
>LOL!

Do women who study WC want to be treated the same as male students, or do you want to train differently to meet more specific needs? I think this does need clarification and should be articulated in class so everyone is on the same page and no one is feeling (a) disrespected or (b) that s/he isn't getting what s/he wants out of class.
>While I think it vary's from woman to woman, judging by my sister's who have posted here along with myself, it would appear that yes we do want to be treated the same. With that said it is also important to note that every person training in WC is on a different plain in at least one of the following areas, different skill level, fitness level, body structure, mindset. Knowing this, a good Sifu will train someone (either male or female or in alpha dogs case, canine ;)) somewhat differently, same skills......different approach. I expect to be trained with the same intensity and skill that is suitable for anyone at the same skill level, and thrown a few challenges by those who are senior to me regularily. This keeps me on my toes and helps my skill to increase.
As far as it being articulated in class, I think myself and my sisters would be pretty good with being clear if something wasn't right for us......just as our brothers would. I dont think we need a special announcement made solely for us. I think it would have more of a segragating quality. It should just be accepted that no disrespect or undermining should occur in the kwoon with regards to ANYONE.

yuanfen

05-19-2003, 08:42 AM

I am reading this and learning much. When I was getting started-
my elder wing chun kung fu sister Nancy Macdonald) was immensely helpful in teaching and showing me the simplest and most coordinated paths in every motion.

Alpha Dog

05-19-2003, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by WCis4me
[B] I dont think we need a special announcement made solely for us. I think it would have more of a segragating quality. B]

I agree. Didn't mean to suggest a "special announcement," just words to the effect that all should train their partners without presumptions -- be they gender-based or otherwise. I don't believe in a "Wing Chun for Women" kinda class, nor do I believe that women who come to class expecting to only learn self-defence techniques should be encouraged to persist in that frame of mind.

WCis4me

05-19-2003, 09:17 AM

I agree. Didn't mean to suggest a "special announcement," just words to the effect that all should train their partners without presumptions -- be they gender-based or otherwise. I don't believe in a "Wing Chun for Women" kinda class, nor do I believe that women who come to class expecting to only learn self-defence techniques should be encouraged to persist in that frame of mind.

Excellent points and well put.

Lindley

05-19-2003, 09:31 AM

On the point of "Women Only" classes, let us remember that Yip Man did have at least one! The women who have responded so far (and I extend my sincerest thanks) seemingly agree for equal training for all. However, we must (as I believe one response did) acknowledge, that there are women who may not feel as comfortable as being the only female or engaging in exercises with larger partners (or the high testosterone levels).

For example, there are quite a few women who do not go to the more famous gyms because they feel it is just a "pickup" joint. And there are some women who train diligently regardless of the stares. The Women's Only class would probably serve a purpose for women who want to "ease" into the more diverse training arena. When we have had sparring classes, we believe in starting out pairing up people of similar size. Facing off in a non-controlled environment is a stage of adjustment in itself. There should be a process of gaining comfort before facing someone of another size.

Rumor has it in my school that at least one female student did not return because of being "talked to" by another student. I have since made it clear that all students should make me aware of any harassing students and that this will not be tolerated. Hence, my point is that like at the gym, harassment can exist. My point being that I was not aware of it before they quit.

Keep going. Maybe one of the instructors out there can relate what they observe about the training relationships amongst the sexes and how they motivate and retain interest in their female todai.

Good Luck with your kung fu!

ntc

05-19-2003, 10:58 AM

This is a good thread, and it is really nice to see the interests and enthusiasm among women practitioners. In my opinion, it is too bad that there are not more women practitioners around, and I hope that there will be more as time goes by. Some of the best students I have come across are female practitioners, and they usually develop really good structures and foundations leading to a very solid, mature Wing Chun as they progress. Hopefully, this thread will help to encourage more female martial arts enthusiasts to explore the style.

Alpha Dog

05-19-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Lindley
On the point of "Women Only" classes, let us remember that Yip Man did have at least one!

No offense, Lindley, but why should that fact matter? Yip Man was of a different time and culture.

In SE Asia, where I started studying WC, there were (when I trained) and still are female-only classes, for three reasons: 1) women don't want to train with men, lest they be touched inappropriately (unintentionally or otherwise) or hit on, 2) men don't want to train with women, because they believe either the women will get hurt or the men could lose face if a woman in the class was better, and 3) men don't want "their women" (i.e. girlfriends or wives) training with other men because they are afraid "their women" might get poached away from them.

So, given that kind of market, any WC Sifu who likes to earn a decent living will offer female only classes. Are the women getting good training, though?

Similarly, how would Western students be better served (in terms of learning WC) through segregated classes (apart from meeting the immediate needs of some women who, for whatever reason, feel uncomfortable around men)?

ntc

05-19-2003, 11:06 AM

By the way, I never really addressed Lindley's original question. It appears that Wing Chun is frequently sought after because of its simple, direct, non-violent approach to martial arts, and this is especially attractive to the female contingent. In addition, the soft aspects of the style and the basis of "leveraging the opponent's strength against themselves" is also very welcoming, especially to those with smaller frames and/or those with a non-aggressive mentality.

Co-ed classes are normal in China, and hardly ever will you see segregation by sexes.... men's class or women's class. The teacher is the fatherly figure, and everyone in the class helps each other, like brothers and sisters. It is also not surprising to find female practitioners outperforming their kung fu brothers. After all, which sex you belong to really should not matter... it is what you practice. The martial artist is the one that makes the art effective... a poor martial artist will make a fool out of the deadliest art, and a quality martial artist will make any martial art seem invincible.

WCis4me

05-19-2003, 11:35 AM

Perhaps the route to go for the occasional woman who is inclined to not want to go coed is a weekly self defense class. IMO the women who do not want to go co-ed are probably not that interested in making martial arts a 'big' part of their life, and are (a) seeking something solely on the basis of self-defense
(b) are doing so based on being victimized by a male in their past and therefore are not so comfortable with having a man as a sparring partner.
Including a self-defense class for women you are covering the spectrum of women who either want to train for a broad spectrum of reasons diligently and for years to come, and women who want to train to defend against attackers and would prefer not to make a life long commitment out of it.
Just a thought.

ntc

05-19-2003, 12:16 PM

There is also the situation where a woman has only been exposed to "women-only" classes in her own experience, in which case she has not had the opportunity to participate in a co-ed kung fu class. This really points to the need for goals and expectations for a certain class, gender-segregated or not, so that she will know what she is getting herself into. Perhaps, allowing her to "try out" and/or to observe some of the actual training will help as well.

anerlich

05-19-2003, 09:54 PM

non-violent approach to martial arts

Sorry, gotta contest that one. Wing Chun is NOT "non-violent". It's for use when non-violence stopped working and you are in deep trouble.

I'd say BJJ is less violent than WC.

My sidai Deborah Peart was interviewed by Australian Blitz last year. She said something like, "If you cant deal with a male instructor and training partners in a supportive environment, how can you possibly expect to deal with a hostile male in a defense situation?" If I can find the article again, I'll post more.

Both my Sifu's school and my si-hing's school are run by husband and wife teams. The testosterone vibe in the place definitely decreased when my Sifu's wife started working reception. I think it helps to have a supportive female in a position of authority that females can confide in if something doesn't feel right to them.

Instructors have to be prepared to act, and quickly. We've had a crazy who started stalking a female student a couple of years back, and Sifu booted him quick smart. Students have to be given the message that disrespect to other students will not be tolerated.

BJJ with its extreme closeness, seems to bring out the gentleman in every male student. Getting your arm cranked by a girl certainly demands respect.

dragon lady

05-19-2003, 11:12 PM

Alpha Dog,

First, understand that this is more of a tool I use to get the men that I work with to be comfortable, not a guide on energetics. The main concern we have gotten from the men at my school is that they are not used to working with women in a training environment. Rather than try and reprogram the mighty protector out of them right away, I point out that they can be part of the solution by empowering their kung fu sisters.

Originally posted by Alpha Dog

I would like some clarification on "not given me any real energies to deal with." What in Dragon Lady's mind constitutes "real energies?" Does this mean force? Because if so, she should be happy as brute strength isn't part of WC training (chi sao at any rate). The lighter the touch the better!

What I mean by "real energies" depends on the situation/exercise and level of all participating students. I understand that the statement is vague, but I did so in lieu of writing down multiple scenarios...hope it did not cause too much confusion. Also, although good WC doesn't equate force with energy (necessarily), that doesn't mean that the person she meets on the street won't. Sometimes you need to see how the other half live so it doesn't sneek up on you. Even if you can handle it, the slightest hesitation can equal the loss of strategic advantage.

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
(chi sao at any rate). The lighter the touch the better!

point well taken and much agreed with

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Second, if the guys have "given... position" what did she do in response to teach them not to do that?

If the "she" was senior, she would correct them as she should (either with hands or mouth)...bad patnering should not go unchecked, regarless of gender. If she is junior she may not have enough sensitivity to know that she has not had her skill properly challenged. It is at this point that a senior student or Sifu should make the appropriate correction and try to address the situation that caused the problem. Often times people will have counter-productive behaviors that are unintentional.

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Finally, on the issue of security -- I think more feedback from other women who train would be interesting, because I train with women and would like understand their expectations of their chi sao partners.

My only expectations of my chi sao partners are that they are willing to communicate the objective of the training session and respect the hands with regards to that determination.

Originally posted by Alpha Dog

Do women who study WC want to be treated the same as male students, or do you want to train differently to meet more specific needs?

I think that all students that join do so to meet specific needs. There are men that want to train to accomplish specifc objectives as well as women. In this regard I feel that women want to be treated the same as men. We all want our needs met.

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
I think this does need clarification and should be articulated in class so everyone is on the same page and no one is feeling (a) disrespected or (b) that s/he isn't getting what s/he wants out of class.

Beautiful statement. It is so important that everyone know what is expected so that the most learning and growth possible can occur.

Thanks for your response,
Crystal

dragon lady

05-19-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

Both my Sifu's school and my si-hing's school are run by husband and wife teams. The testosterone vibe in the place definitely decreased when my Sifu's wife started working reception. I think it helps to have a supportive female in a position of authority that females can confide in if something doesn't feel right to them.

It is definately helpful to have a woman around for those instances when a female student might not feel comfortable discussing something with her Sifu or brothers. You never know what may come up. I personally can't imagine feeling comfortable discussing a matter with my Simo that I couldn't also share with my Sifu, but I have had a considerable amount of time to build that bond. My husband and I plan on opening a school together(eventually). We feel that our students will greatly benefit from having a male AND female Sifu from which to learn.

Cheers,
Crystal

05-20-2003, 05:25 AM

Crystal,

Superbly articulate posts, and right on the money.

Regarding male/female teaching, I think you are onto something. My foremost training partner (male) and I lead and manage our training group; the gender balance does seem to enable a certain synergism, both in atmosphere and learning. Continued feedback confirms that as well. Most of the practitioners in our group are male, BTW.

~~~

Alpha Dog,

Some of the previous posts nailed it, IMHO. Training expectations vary more by individual than by gender. Open communication, real listening, mutual respect, and avoiding assumptions are keys. This applies as much to training intensity, as to other potentially sensitive issues like touching. Emotional maturity certainly helps.

Interestingly enough, we have encountered more men who have expressed concerns or fears about the intensity of training than women. Similarly, in my experience anyway, it is more often men rather than women who have more issues to overcome regarding touch. This may be merely a matter of statistical distribution though, since the proportion of males is so much higher than females. It may also be relative to the natures of women more generally attracted to such undertakings (more assertive, less fearful, more willing to take risks, etc.). Perhaps it has to do with women being more comfortable with touch in a general or nurturing sense. Whatever the reason(s), it seems interesting to note.

As you can see from the posts above, we ladies do encounter some anomalies when working with the guys from time to time. Some will consciously or subconsciously withhold or yield more than they would with a comparably capable male counterpart. A few others will go to nearly any lengths to "show the little lady her place" (e.g., ETW's comment). In the former case we ladies need to appropriately assist and encourage proper and balanced training, using keen awareness and communication. In the latter case, there may be underlying issues which need to be dealt with in another manner or venue.

I appreciate the fine line you guys must sometimes find yourselves walking when working with us gals. Not only is there a wide range of sensitivity among females to aggressiveness or general touch, but also the ever present "breast issue." On the one hand you've got women who will be frustrated if the training is compromised because of "being nice" or "gentlemanly," and not the least concerned or offended about incidental contact which naturally arises in course of training. Then there will be times when anyone may instinctively and physically shy from incidental touch (most often breast for women, groin for men) which can make any or all parties a tad uncomfortable in the moment. Fortunately, as people become accustomed to working out and mature in the work, this issue tends to lessen over time, and especially as training intensity increases.

On the other extreme there will always be some individuals who can take offense at a mere glance, no less misinterpret physical contact. Fortunately, not many of the hypersensitive types tend to come to our classes, and those who do don't usually stick around long. Still, we must be mindful of such things, as all it takes is one person who touches inappropriately, one person who overreacts, or one person with a chip of any kind on their shoulder to incite problems.

Mark (my training partner) and I make every effort to maintain awareness of the group dynamics on all levels. At the same time, we have our own work to do and we aren't baby sitters. Nor do we pretend to be qualified as social workers or psychotherapists.

Our gender-neutral policy is pretty simple. 1) As mature adults, each is responsible for their own safety and well being, both in class and outside of it. 2) It's up to each individual to express their concerns and needs to their training partners, to us or to both. 3) When in doubt, ask.

Some morning kibble.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

05-20-2003, 09:37 AM

I notice my other post was deleted. Did I say something wrong? :confused:

Regards,
- kj

EnterTheWhip

05-20-2003, 04:28 PM

I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

PaulH

05-20-2003, 04:59 PM

Hey ETW,

That's funny. Can I call your mon on this? Ha! Ha! For everyone else I'm truly sorry to intrude this private domain, I couldn't resist the bait.

Regards,

05-20-2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

Nice try.
- kj

Phenix

05-20-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

Nah Nah...

How about your mom and or the nurse who slap you on your butt when you was born?:D

John Weiland

05-20-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.
You know you love it. :p

anerlich

05-20-2003, 09:41 PM

I would just like to say that no woman has ever or will ever beat me.

I've been to that club too. Basically the dominatrix's won't even look at you if you're not wearing leather chaps with the butt cut out over a G-string and one of those leather masks with a zipper for a mouth.

Guess you chose that screen name and the one before for a reason, huh?

Has any woman ever, or will any woman ever, want to TOUCH you with a 6.5 point pole?

Do you actually have a corporeal presence other than as KFO's resident irascible, misanthropic (just added that one to what might become a long list of adjectives) curmudgeon?

EnterTheWhip

05-20-2003, 09:58 PM

Guys, this was a perfectly fine thread until you came along and inserted your useless comments and innuendo. So typical of us men to undermine women's issues. At least my comments were relevant to the discussion.

So, to bring it back the subject at hand... how do you (PaulH, Phenix, John Weiland, anerlich) demonstrate respect for or lack therof the training of the females in your class. Do you hold back because they are female? Do you give them the same intention/energy that you give to the males? Do you attempt to overpower the females (usually by means of strength) to ensure that you don't get beat and embarrassed?

anerlich

05-20-2003, 10:33 PM

Guys, this was a perfectly fine thread until you came along and inserted your useless comments and innuendo.

LOL, You can't seriously be trying to take some sort of high road after that sexist, self-aggrandizing and inane post at the top of the page. ETW lecturing others on forum ettiquette is surreal. Relevant to the discussion ... crap.

Do you hold back because they are female?

Not because they are female. If I am stronger or more skilled than the person I am working with, I try and work maybe 5% above them. If I'm not, then I do my best.

Do you give them the same intention/energy that you give to the males?

I give every student the level of that stuff that is appropriate to their current level of skill.

"Do you attempt to overpower the females (usually by means of strength) to ensure that you don't get beat and embarrassed?"

I might get beat, I wouldn't get embarassed - at my age I'm only a couple years away from some senior citizen discounts and can use that as an excuse :D.

Go to a BJJ school with some female purple belts, you will be made to reevaluate your self-opinion.

A name for you to look up - Erin Toughill (sp).

dragon lady

05-20-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

Not because they are female. If I am stronger or more skilled than the person I am working with, I try and work maybe 5% above them. If I'm not, then I do my best.

I give every student the level of that stuff that is appropriate to their current level of skill.

This is the attitude that women, and I believe ALL students are looking for in their training partners!

KungFuGrrrl

06-12-2004, 08:51 PM

I chose WC (in 1996) because it was based on redirection and deflection, and I would not have to absorb brute force.nor do high kicks. (I have many injuries ( healed broken vertabrae, 3 proturding discs, one into the spinal cord), arthritis in spine..(a result of an attack by a male in 1995)........
interestingly, the ortho surgeons said WC (and TCC) has kept me out of a wheelchair! and helped to heal some of my injuries.

re training with mixed class. I feel this is important because If a woman gets into a real life situation, most liKely she will be attacked by a male and therefore should be able to defend herlsef against people of different size and body structure.

Re My feelings : I used to get very nervous working with the guys, but with the patient teaching and encouragement of my Sifu, and Kung Fu brothers I learned to overcome the overwhelming fear of being approached by male students - I sometimes get a little nervous, but it subsides and all ends well!

I would suggest if you have a woman in the class have her talk to potential female students, that is always ecouraging and helped me when I first joined.
Good luck We need more women in WC!!!!!!:D

Ultimatewingchun

06-12-2004, 10:49 PM

I find this post by dragon lady to be absolutely remarkable:

So it has been ingrained within "you" to "not hit a girl"... consider this: I am a small woman who has been training with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have "given" me position instead of making me "earn" it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is "your" size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as "woman found in trunk" you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.

Remarkable for it's brutal, in-your-face, non politically correct...honesty.

That is indeed the dilemma - FOR MEN - when there are women in the class. We HAVE been taught not to hit women!

And so the end result is that most men are walking on egg-shells when they do chi sao, or spar, etc....with women. Because it's a no-win situation: If you hurt a woman - you're a bully and a coward...If they hurt (beat/defeat/score upon) you - you're a laughing stock for the other guys to make fun of. (And trust me ladies...the other guys WILL make fun of the unfortunate fellow - even if it's behind closed doors).

And if you go "easy" on them (ie. - give them unearned position, don't feed them powerful energy, etc.)...some women (like dragon lady) - will complain.

See the problem?

And the solution is.......

I don't know!

So how about it, ladies...enlighten me.

06-13-2004, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
That is indeed the dilemma - FOR MEN - when there are women in the class. We HAVE been taught not to hit women!

And so the end result is that most men are walking on egg-shells when they do chi sao, or spar, etc....with women. Because it's a no-win situation: If you hurt a woman - you're a bully and a coward...If they hurt (beat/defeat/score upon) you - you're a laughing stock for the other guys to make fun of. (And trust me ladies...the other guys WILL make fun of the unfortunate fellow - even if it's behind closed doors).

And if you go "easy" on them (ie. - give them unearned position, don't feed them powerful energy, etc.)...some women (like dragon lady) - will complain.

See the problem?

And the solution is.......

I don't know!

So how about it, ladies...enlighten me.

This question has already been addressed with utter correctness ... by one of the forum gentlemen. Anerlich wrote, and I requote here from Dragon Lady's post ...

"Not because they are female. If I am stronger or more skilled than the person I am working with, I try and work maybe 5% above them. If I'm not, then I do my best.

"I give every student the level of that stuff that is appropriate to their current level of skill."

Naturally, there's a bit of a rub here if one believes that a) any training short of "hard sparring" is useless and of zero benefit, or b) that training at an intensity below one's skill level is a waste of time.

As for the embarrassment of getting hit by a woman, that's an entirely different issue, worthy of introspection by all IMHO.

More than once I have been "guilty" of restraining myself as well, avoiding or taking a lesser opportunity for concern of a poor fellow's apparently fragile ego or the "face" of a school owner. I have also, on occasion, constrained myself in order to mitigate the risk of an emotionally charged retribution aimed at "putting me in my place" or the need to regain "face." <sigh>

Having said that, I have and do work with lots of guys for whom such things are no concern.

Unfortunately selfishness and ego, including seemingly innocuous factors such as self-consciousness, self-perception, and cultural, societal, or business pressures, can be a significant barrier to mutual and unfettered learning. Not to mention the impact of hormones.

When a problem arises with men and women working together, it isn't an issue of gender as much as inidividual issues.

More often than we may like to admit, the real enemy lies within.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

06-13-2004, 06:42 AM

P.S. As to the problem of other guys making fun, the solution to that could be to help educate them through example. Or find new guys to hang with. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Ultimatewingchun

06-13-2004, 09:05 AM

"Naturally, there's a bit of a rub here if one believes that a) any training short of "hard sparring" is useless and of zero benefit, or b) that training at an intensity below one's skill level is a waste of time." (KJ)

On the contrary, I believe that there is a huge benefit in doing frequent chi sao and light sparring drills that emphasize the "softer" aspects of training (no force-against-force/moving slowly/methodically/relaxed energy/no tension in the muscles/more co-operatively and less competitively, etc.)

The dilemma I described comes when it's time for (and the women in the class want to participate in) a more intense and competitive form of chi sao, sparring, and so on.

Many times I have used (and encouraged my more senior students to use) the 5% extra method that Andrew describes so well...with more junior men and women.

BUT MY FIRST POST ADDRESSED A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

The difficult and...shall we say...delicate...issue of how to handle the situation when it's time for something harder and more competitive.

I can remember a really tough young lady who attended my school about ten years ago. At the time she was about maybe 23-24 years old - and already had about 5 years of Muay Thai and kickboxing experience. She was about 5' 3" and weighed about 125lbs. And she could really punch and kick butt - against men who were much bigger than her (but with less experience).

In time, however, when their technique and wing chun knowledge grew (some of the men in question)...she couldn't beat them anymore. (Their natural size advantage having eventually tipped the scales in their favor). And she was the only woman, at that time...in the advanced sparring class.

She eventually got very upset with me - because I "didn't teach her enough technique" to enable her to triumph over the bigger guys...at least that was her complaint - as unfounded as it was.

She quit the school.

06-13-2004, 12:19 PM

KungFuGrrrl,

Thanks for sharing your story. You go, grrrl! :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

06-13-2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Naturally, there's a bit of a rub here if one believes that a) any training short of "hard sparring" is useless and of zero benefit, or b) that training at an intensity below one's skill level is a waste of time." (KJ)

On the contrary, I believe that there is a huge benefit in doing frequent chi sao and light sparring drills that emphasize the "softer" aspects of training (no force-against-force/moving slowly/methodically/relaxed energy/no tension in the muscles/more co-operatively and less competitively, etc.)

It's good to get a glimpse of this more balanced perspective, Victor.

The dilemma I described comes when it's time for (and the women in the class want to participate in) a more intense and competitive form of chi sao, sparring, and so on.

Many times I have used (and encouraged my more senior students to use) the 5% extra method that Andrew describes so well...with more junior men and women.

Why wouldn't the less junior men and women be afforded the same learning advantage? Five percent on an iterative and increasing basis is very reasonable with limitless advancement potential. If they cannot perform and sustain at 5%, why will they perform or learn more effectively by being overwhelmed or injured at 10% or 20%? Unless they have an unusual view of themselves and the world, everyone understands that they can be beaten. I don't need to gulp spoilt milk to know what it tastes like; a whiff tells me enough.

BUT MY FIRST POST ADDRESSED A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

The difficult and...shall we say...delicate...issue of how to handle the situation when it's time for something harder and more competitive.

Presuming we are talking about adults, this is a personal decision, no?

I can remember a really tough young lady who attended my school about ten years ago. At the time she was about maybe 23-24 years old - and already had about 5 years of Muay Thai and kickboxing experience. She was about 5' 3" and weighed about 125lbs. And she would really punch and kick butt - against men who were much bigger than her (but with less experience).

In time, however, when their technique and wing chun knowledge grew (some of the men in question)...she couldn't beat them anymore. (Their natural size advantage having eventually tipped the scales in their favor). And she was the only woman, at that time...in the advanced sparring class.

Size, strength, and reach "do" matter, especially when skill is comparable, and even with higher level skills when physical attributes of the "opponent" are dramatic enough. This is mirrored in one of our proverbs: "Within the same school, the one with longer reach has the advantage." Skill can increase indefinitely, yet there is no panacea. Perhaps she didn't realize this, or was too impatient.

She eventually got very upset with me - because I "didn't teach her enough technique" to enable her to triumph over the bigger guys...at least that was her complaint - as unfounded as it was.

She quit the school.

I cannot possibly guess what was true cause of her leaving, since I don't know the parties, scenario, histories, training environment, or other personal and situational complexities.

Having said that, here is some "general" perspective that I can offer, which may or may not have anything to do with the situation described: a) If hard sparring is advocated as the primary learning methodology, if b) the student is told or encouraged that there are no alternative means of learning, and c) if the training methodology is such that one is in fact not continuing to learn and increase in skill and capability, then in that environment, unless there is some other ancillary draw, it seems foolish to me that the person should stay.

Another thing I know, is that not all training environments are equally suited to all people and all learning styles. Being that many of us are adamant about one training methodology over another doesn't change the fact that "one size does not fit all."

Again, there is no way I can know if any of this is in any way relevant for the young woman in question, nor can I know if another training methodology would have enabled her to continue progressing. For all we know she had other responsibilities, got tired of training, had her own ego problem, wanted to avoid someone in class, or one of an infinite number of other possibilities. I hope she managed to find whatever it was that she needed.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Ultimatewingchun

06-13-2004, 06:29 PM

A very thoughtful post, Kathy Jo, and I appreciate that.

A few points...you wrote:

"Here is some "general" perspective that I can offer, which may or may not have anything to do with the situation described: a) If hard sparring is advocated as the primary learning methodology, if b) the student is told or encouraged that there are no alternative means of learning..."

I think I know where you were going with this - but I can assure you that she wanted to do hard sparring - and actually complained when more than a few classes went by wherein she didn't get to spar.

Actually - you were quite on the mark, IMO, when you wrote the following:

"Within the same school, the one with longer reach has the advantage." Skill can increase indefinitely, yet there is no panacea. Perhaps she didn't realize this, or was too impatient.

She was, indeed, a very impatient type - though I liked her a lot.
She had many admirable qualities.

An another note, you wrote:

"Why wouldn't the less junior men and women be afforded the same learning advantage? Five percent on an iterative and increasing basis is very reasonable with limitless advancement potential."

I was just trying to point out that I treat all the juniors the same when it comes to light and moderate contact in chi sao, sparring, etc.

And finally, you wrote...first quoting me - and then adding a comment of your own:

"On the contrary, I believe that there is a huge benefit in doing frequent chi sao and light sparring drills that emphasize the "softer" aspects of training (no force-against-force/moving slowly/methodically/relaxed energy/no tension in the muscles/more co-operatively and less competitively, etc.)"

---------------------------------------------------------------

"It's good to get a glimpse of this more balanced perspective, Victor."

Perhaps I've given the mistaken impression, Kathy Jo, that I just want to encourage people to SUBTRACT something from their training, ie. - the softer side of chi sao, of other drills, and so on.

That's not true - I simply want to encourage people to ADD something...

Harder, and more realistic combat training...(for those adults who want it). Hard sparring is not mandatory in my school - it's voluntary.

Regards,

06-14-2004, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
A very thoughtful post, Kathy Jo, and I appreciate that.

Ditto back at you, Victor.

[deletia]I think I know where you were going with this - but I can assure you that she wanted to do hard sparring - and actually complained when more than a few classes went by wherein she didn't get to spar.

I can't help but wonder if she was too impatient, too "greedy" for her own good. IME, the kinds of skills the smaller person needs are a slow go and require a lot of patience.

I don't buy the rumors along the lines of "everything you need in Wing Chun you'll get in 3 years," etc. Kung fu isn't something someone can "give" to us in a prescribed amount of time. Rather it is the cumulative result of effort over time, and something which must be "earned." The smaller or more physically disadvantaged party especially must remember this, and have (and nurture) sufficient patience for the process to play out. IME and IMHO, instant results are superficial and limiting in context of all that is possible.

As before, the smaller person can't appropriately compare oneself with bigger, faster, longer reach people ... we need to work diligently on our own game and keep an eye on the longer term. (Note avatar, LOL.)

I also wonder to what degree her compulsion to spar out of her range contributed to a sense of exasperation. I know in my case, it is much more productive to work on small and incremental skill improvements. This type of progress may become obscured through frequent sparring, especially if sparring outside of my skill, size and strength range. My incremental improvements are more easily observable, and observable more frequently, through less intense and better controlled experiences. Each of these small improvements adds up over time, combining with other skill improvements to amount to something in the longer term.

I know myself well enough that I personally would become exasperated if a preponderance of my training experience and feedback was essentially a no-win. Don't get me wrong - I consider the reality check of failure to be a very useful, healthy, and essential aspect of training. I am grateful to the "mountains" I sometimes run into for the learnings offered and gained there. But as a steady diet, overwhelming failure is too counterproductive, and overshadows anything I may have done "right" or may be improving upon. Constant "failure" can too easily extinct hope, lead to a loss of interest or resignment.

[deletia]She was, indeed, a very impatient type - though I liked her a lot. She had many admirable qualities.

Perhaps she'll develop more patience over time, and through more life experience. Improved patience may provide the balance she needs to gain best advantage of her other positive attributes, to serve her better in other endeavors and in the long run.

[deletia]Perhaps I've given the mistaken impression, Kathy Jo, that I just want to encourage people to SUBTRACT something from their training, ie. - the softer side of chi sao, of other drills, and so on.

That's not true - I simply want to encourage people to ADD something...

Harder, and more realistic combat training...(for those adults who want it). Hard sparring is not mandatory in my school - it's voluntary.

Again, good to hear, Victor. The proportion and passion of your posts may obfuscate this aspect at times.

Thanks again for your pensive reply. These kinds of reflections may appear as idle rambling; to the contrary, I believe they can help to nurture mutual and respective growth.

BTW, and in case you don't already know of it, there is a small book you may be interested in titled, "Mastery: The Keys to Success and Long-Term Fulfillment" by George Leonard. Matrix mentioned on the forum one time, and it has since gone on my "favorites" list. (Thanks again, Matrix!!) It's an interesting and insightful discussion on the process of growth and development, relative to martial arts or virtually anything else. I can easily see the relevance of the author's observations to the student you describe. It's also a very quick read.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Matrix

06-14-2004, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by kj
"Mastery: The Keys to Success and Long-Term Fulfillment" by George Leonard. Matrix mentioned on the forum one time, and it has since gone on my "favorites" list. (Thanks again, Matrix!!) Kathy Jo,
The pleasure is all mine. I'm pleased to see that you enjoyed the book.

Bill

blooming lotus

06-14-2004, 05:55 PM