weight lifting & wing chun

[sleestack]

I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but IMO weight lifting is beneficial to any martial artists including wing chun. Consider that between the ages of 30 and 60 the average person (who doesn't lift) will lose approximately half their muscle mass. (this is also a general health issue). Contrary to what some people think, muscles are used in wing chun movements. It's physically impossible for bones and tendons to move without the use of muscles. Proper weight training simply allows those muscles to perform with maximum efficiency.

In my experience, weightlifting doesn't hinder the ability to relax. Relaxation is mostly mental. Can wing chun be effective without weight lifting? Yes (obviously). Will weight lifting develop wing chun power? No. But a trim and fit body will improve overall efficiency in movement and help prevent injuries.

WSL stated in an interview with Qi magazine that Yip Man was "a lot more powerful" in his fifties than in his seventies. Now you could argue that this was due to cancer, but a big part of it was probably due to a certain amount of muscle deterioration. Because of the aging process, some deterioration is inevitable but it can be minimized through proper weight training. (and by weight training I also mean body weight exercises).

Any thoughts?

Troy

[fa_jing]

Depends what kind of weight lifting (bodybuilding's a bad one) and how big of a percentage of your training it consists of. I would think that something like Kettlebells would be a good workout for any martial art.

[reneritchie]

Weightlifting means absolutely nothing for WCK.









However, weightlifting can mean a great deal to some of the people who train WCK, and can benefit some people in general, as can proper nutrition, cardio, and general good health.

And, IMHO, while "what Yip Man" did or didn't do are cute (but lazy) little debate tactics, Yip Man didn't (to my knowledge) fly in airplanes or go for a MRI scan. Doesn't mean anyone has to swim to Europe or leave a major injury for a barber to diagnose. Learn as much as possible about physical training, its demands, and what benefits it, then make an informed, intelligent decision based on your own unique needs.

(And some people might just love doing it, like they love baseball or having children, or watching Sopranos. WCK is part of life, you're allowed to have other parts).

(Caveat, I don't lift weights, but don't burn those who do at the stake).

(Enough brackets already)

(Really)

(I mean it)

[Ernie]

**** your brave to suggest fitness and conditioning to wing chun people i'm impressed.
wieght lifting will not hurt your wing chun in any way unless you lift wrong and hurt yourself and then can't train.
you won't turn int o a body builder or some big monster unless your allready big or taking steroids and even then it would take years of extreme training . '' so kill that myth''
regaudless if it will help your wing chun who cares as you may never get into a fight but you need to use your body everyday so anything that can improve your body go for it.
if becomeing some kind of wing chun master means you can't improve your body as u see fit , then screw wing chun
but if you get stronger and faster and can still apply structure ,relaxation,and sensitivity
the guess what you just upped your chances for survival.
you can train sport specific and develop your attributes with the use of wieghts and other devices as well as supplements and get the benifit of a good looking and functional body to boot ,
but that requires hard work and most people would rather find ways to not work hard then just shut up and do it .
as for that other myth '' can't use your muscle when your 50,60,70,,,and so on '' i got two things to say
1. if you work out no matter what the age you will be in better shape then if you don't
2. if your still fighting or plan on fighting when your 50,60,70,,,then your an idiot and need mental attention not martial arts .
do what makes you feel good screw what everyone says including me.

[fa_jing]

Well there's more possibilities for detrimental effect other than getting so big that you can't scratch your nose. Such as increased stiffness. That's why you should weight train according to a routine that is designed for athletics.

IMO it is useful for any martial art, including Wing Chun. The reason being that Wing Chun often puts that body weight behind a strike. Anytime you can increase your body weight without compromising fluidity and speed, your strikes will be more powerful.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by sleestack
I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but IMO weight lifting is beneficial to any martial artists including wing chun. Consider that between the ages of 30 and 60 the average person (who doesn't lift) will lose approximately half their muscle mass. (this is also a general health issue). Contrary to what some people think, muscles are used in wing chun movements. It's physically impossible for bones and tendons to move without the use of muscles. Proper weight training simply allows those muscles to perform with maximum efficiency.

In my experience, weightlifting doesn't hinder the ability to relax. Relaxation is mostly mental. Can wing chun be effective without weight lifting? Yes (obviously). Will weight lifting develop wing chun power? No. But a trim and fit body will improve overall efficiency in movement and help prevent injuries.

WSL stated in an interview with Qi magazine that Yip Man was "a lot more powerful" in his fifties than in his seventies. Now you could argue that this was due to cancer, but a big part of it was probably due to a certain amount of muscle deterioration. Because of the aging process, some deterioration is inevitable but it can be minimized through proper weight training. (and by weight training I also mean body weight exercises).

Any thoughts?

Troy
Hi Troy,

I've come around to your side on this issue for the reasons you've cited. When I was young, I could assume that my body could do whatever was required. As I have progressed to my ancient state, I am often dismayed that in non-Wing Chun matters, my strength is not what it was. Rene was right that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun. It has to do with managing age-related muscle loss and maintaining tone and metabolism.

As far as diminishment in Yip Man's physique, could it have had something to do with his opium use with its associated loss of appetite?

In addition to resistance training, cardiovascular conditioning becomes more important, not less, as we age. Or, we could just be satisfied with being unable to keep up with the youngsters. For some practitioners, particularly those who teach and put in long hours of Wing Chun, both the benifits of resistance training and cardio might be present in them. My own teacher is 62 years old, 115 pounds, does only Wing Chun, and he's more powerful than me at 220 pounds in the way it counts in Wing Chun.

Now to get out of this chair and go out to the garage and do some lifting. :D Then tonight, after it cools off, I can go for a run after doing my sets. (Today's an off-day for practice.) :D

Regards,

[KingMonkey]

I think weight training is important.

Having triceps that can generate more power means a faster more powerful punch.
Having a stronger body attached to the arm will provide a more stable base and so again a more powerful punch.

If I compare myself to my peers I have a faster hand speed and more powerful punch than them. I dont believe it's a coincidence that I am the only one who ever spends any time in a gym.

[AndrewS]

Come over to the dark side of the force. . . join me. . . join the Party. . . for I am your fath. . .

Weights rock. Kettlebells rock harder.

The Bear sucks unless you're a serious masochist. Luckily, I'm a serious masochist.

DL 315x5 for 6 sets, 295x5 for 4 sets, time elapsed approximately 50 minutes (things slowed down a bit for the last 4 sets as my girlfriend had to start seriously cutting her weights).


And tonight is squat night. . .

Andrew

[kj]

Weight training for Wing Chun, absolutely not.

Weight training for general health and well being, therapy, or just because you love it and can't quit, great.

Walking the walk not just talking the talk, I NEVER work weights for Wing Chun. However, I have been working with a physical therapist & personal trainer, who helped design a program for my own unique health and wellness needs, which includes resistance training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Hey Kathy,

separating the health and well-being of a practioner from the art they practice is splitting hairs. If you're in better shape, injured less often, rehab quicker, have better cardiovascular conditioning, develop stronger bones and connective tissue- it should make your Wing Chun better.

FWIW,

Andrew

P.S. And of course, some things seem to actually specifically help Wing Chun structure and mechanics.

[Ernie]

''Andrew

P.S. And of course, some things seem to actually specifically help Wing Chun structure and mechanics.''

i'm living in the dark side right along with you but lets list a few things that translat right over for other people
1. squats/deadlifts = explosive power off the ground
2. clean and jerk =same
3. lat pulls = lop sau from hell
core training '' resitience to build the waist'' = helps everything
theres alot more but i'll let the rest add on

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hey Kathy,

separating the health and well-being of a practioner from the art they practice is splitting hairs.

Indeed. I openly confess to being a bonafide hair splitter, LOL.



If you're in better shape, injured less often, rehab quicker, have better cardiovascular conditioning, develop stronger bones and connective tissue- it should make your Wing Chun better.

I cannot argue or disagree with that. The only caveat is that, IME, those who induldge tend to have more trouble with Wing Chun than those who train Wing Chun only. At least in the way I and mine practice Wing Chun.

I'm convinced that there needs to be some sort of best balance of training for the individual, as there must be in all things. Not only in light of Wing Chun, but in the individual's broader life context.



FWIW,


I value your opinions, even where we may dicker on the odd occasion.



Andrew

P.S. And of course, some things seem to actually specifically help Wing Chun structure and mechanics.

I'll have to defer on this one; especially with your background and my lack of, I would be remiss to debate. All I can offer is that IME thus far, both for myself and in observing others, that the most fruitful training for Wing Chun has been more training in Wing Chun.

Our conclusions and practices may lead us to seemingly opposing stances, but I think philosophically our differences are but a razor's edge (or that darn nit I can't stop picking). As I think you know, I value well reasoned conclusions over simply agreeable ones. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Hi Kathy,

weights have their perils- certain lifting schemes can tighten you up, others will do next to nothing for you. When you talk about people you train with lifting, the question then must come- how do they lift?

IMO, good anatomic understanding of the nature of structure and understanding of weight-training can much more rapidly fix some structural problems than years of trying to train into condition.

When it comes to training and time spent- how much time do you have to spend? If you only have six hours a week, do Wing Chun. If you regularily log 20+, cutting back on some training time and doing 5-7 hrs of strength and conditioning a week is probably a better use of your time.

Ernie,

deadlifts- the freakin' king of lifts. The Tzar. The posterior chain and great ab stabilization comes from this lift, I love it dearly, and think it's the best thing out there for Wing Chun. The muscle mechanics of the punch and step are near identical to the deadlift.

k-bell or dumbell swings/snatches (and presumably pure Oly snatches, though I don't do those)- teach you to use that chain developed above exposively with good muscular endurance, and unilaterally (out to one hand).

jerks- punching straight up, and you better keep your shoulder down if you want your skull intact. Arm extended, shoulder *down* and *back* is good Wing Chun lesson. Jerks seem to be the closest to punching of any lift, in terms of feel.

squats- core stabilization, and hip flexibility if you go for the brown stain on the floor. I'm on a front squat kick now, trying to learn to live low. These serve my kicks and chi gherk very well.

dumbell rows- wonderful drill for developing the shoulder girdle and correct left-right imbalances

single leg deadlifts with weight in hand across from foot on ground- pure love for balance work

windmills and bent presses- amazing for developing flexible arm/body connection.

I'll stop before I hyperventilate.

Ernie- where are you Oly lifting? Gold's in Venice is the only place around I know of which has a platform.

Later,


Andrew

[Ernie]

Kathy,
[that the most fruitful training for Wing Chun has been more training in Wing Chun.]

there is skill training and there is conditioning , one can excel with out the other but both can be symbiotic, as they both relate to the same source '' the human body and mind ''.
when you train skill, your trying to refine your sensitivity, balance ,relaxation ,timing and so on . this is more mind and body unification, gaining experience and confidence , programming the auto pilot per say.
but this requires moving the human body from point ''a'' to point ''b''
in direct relation to something else that is moving .
when you feel fit and your endurance is good , when you know you can go for 30 min. in a fight even though it may only be 30 sec. you are more relaxed and confident your more patient and aware . you won't blindly rush into some thing because you feel desperate and you have to get it done immediately because you know in your heart you will run out of gas.
IME the apparent down side is trying to chi sau when I'm sore as hell from lifting or running . it throws off my relation time a bit and my feel is a little of . but I have grown to enjoy that feeling as it simulates what happens in a fight kind of sorta, when you get in a fight probably won't happen when you want to fight . meaning you wont be warmed up and stretched out and in a training state of mind , so you will be fighting your own body and mind . not to mention adrenaline dump, fear and shock . all these things effect your skills . in the fights I've been in I tend to feel like things are happening in slow motion and my body initially feels sluggish '' kinda sorta like when I'm fatigued by weights '' . see were I'm going with this . training is all about simulating and having experiences .
if you are creative you can find experience were you least expect it .
but I understand we each have our own way.

[Ernie]

Andrew
I train at bodies in motion in Pasadena, got all the fun stuff there plus full boxer gear ''heavy bags ,speed bags ,double end bags , upper cut bags , even water filled and a full size ring to boot for that occasional sparring session. the whole nine spinning palates you name it . but odd that you would mention gold's as I'm on the hunt for good hammer strength equipment as for the last 2 years I haven't had a steady work out partner and it shows .
I was looking into the gold's in Pasadena 2 miles from my house. any way enough personal stuff . what do you use for speed and explosiveness , I'm starting to run up hill sprints and going back to plyo's

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by AndrewS

weights have their perils- certain lifting schemes can tighten you up, others will do next to nothing for you. When you talk about people you train with lifting, the question then must come- how do they lift?

Which brings up the third necessary exercise for us, stretching. Warming up before and stretching after a weight training session is mucho importante.

Also, an excellent alternative cardio and resistance exercise program is swimming.

Regards,

[TjD]

while upper body strength may not be as important, lower body is quite important. the legs generate a lot of power in WC. stronger legs = more power.


i lift 4 times a week and the only thing my wing chun brothers/sifu noticed was that im strong for my size. everyone says i have soft hands. relaxation is all in the mind.

my routine is really simple, halfway between power to the people and the bear.

day 1: 5x5 bench, 5x5 rows, 5x5 calf extensions
day 2: 5x5 squats, 5x5 military press, 5x5 lat pull down
5 minute rest inbetween. every time i lift i increase the weights 5 lbs until i cant do my 5 sets of 5. if i cant, i take a day or two off and go down 10 lbs and start again.

as my legs get stronger, my WC gets better. i can handle the single legged stance much better, which really improves my chi gerk. stronger legs have also improved my endurance (i can train more = better WC), footwork and chi sau.

[IronFist]

Weight lifting owns you.

IronFist

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hi Kathy,

weights have their perils- certain lifting schemes can tighten you up, others will do next to nothing for you. When you talk about people you train with lifting, the question then must come- how do they lift?


Other than "like most people seem to," I haven't got much of a clue. There have been some lifters in our school who have been surprisingly supple and relaxed, though that has been the exception and not the rule. Even they though (the supple and relaxed ones I've known), experienced a lot of trouble giving up use of strength in their Wing Chun work. Also, their overall Wing Chun development and skills did not come any easier for them than for the rest of us.

OTOH, those I know who have attained exceptional skill, did not undertake any explicit weight training at all, other than what is inherent within the Wing Chun repertoire (e.g., stance work, knives, pole). I have no way of assessing the degree to which implicit weight training may have been present in their day-to-day lives. I realize others MMV altogether.

WRT certain efficiencies in alternative training vs. Wing Chun training as you mentioned earlier, I hear what you're saying, and remain justifiably open minded. My reservation is largely based on my own observations (I do confess some small pride in trying to pay attention, LOL), combined with those of many of my seniors and peers. I fully realize that our combined observations are only a sample data set, and until everyone is sampled and counted with all training permutations considered, cannot be exhaustive. If I were going on logic alone, I would likely have conceded to your conclusion already.



IMO, good anatomic understanding of the nature of structure and understanding of weight-training can much more rapidly fix some structural problems than years of trying to train into condition.

That's exactly why I sought to have my own remedial and preventive program designed. I do indeed have "structural problems" that need fixing, with or without Wing Chun. :(

While Wing Chun may "help" in some ways, I in no way believe it was designed to fix my inherent problems for me. I do think there is some presumption that we come to Wing Chun in reasonably decent health and working order. Again, and on this point, touché to your argument. When that isn't the case, we can either choose to a) work with what we have, or b) aim to fix and improve things that are malfunctioning or suboptimal - and I think we may be in sufficient agreement on this last point "b."



When it comes to training and time spent- how much time do you have to spend? If you only have six hours a week, do Wing Chun. If you regularily log 20+, cutting back on some training time and doing 5-7 hrs of strength and conditioning a week is probably a better use of your time.

Again, I'll defer agreement or disagreement, though I concede that the proposition is valid.

IME, there always seems to be a catch-22 as regards weight training and Wing Chun.

Regards,
- kj

[AndrewS]

Ernie,

I think only the Gold's in Venice has a platform. For speed and explosiveness? Kettlebells and squats. I think Oly lifts are the way to go for explosiveness- one of my seniors exclusively trains for Oly lifting and has had great results for the last two years.

I don't really understand plyos well, despite having read a few books and tried them. I need to find a good coach to go through them with me.

I'm a serious k-bell fiend- they're the best fight cardio I've ever done.

Travis,

the Party rules! Why the 5x5 thing with long rest intervals? What are you trying to do? The short rest interval gives you hypertrophy, the long, strength. It sounds like you're doing strength stuff, but why not pull some singles or doubles in there?

Kathy,

what about folks who weren't lifting when they learned to be soft and have good structure, who then started to lift? Thoughts on them?

'Like most people' would be 'like a moron with no plan'- think of it as randomly performed half-taught purposeless qi gong, and you'll understand what most weightlifting people do is. No science, no understanding, little gain.

Andrew

[Ernie]

andrew
i right about to get back into a heavy lifting cycle , starting next week , maybe i'll pick your brain for some solo training idea's .i've been off all my supplements for the last six months so i haven't had that spark but summers coming and vanity will rule.
plyo's build you 0 to 100 speed mostly for footwotk . you can apply the same mental trigger to punching and intercepting . relax and explode then relax again.
more later got to go

[IRONMONK]

Anyone planning to do olympic lifting etc make sure you have someone experienced to teach and show you how to do the techniques correctly.I heard that Bruce Lee damaged his lower back severely from incorrect lifting.
I have seen a device that you can buy which attaches onto your back and has some cables so you can practise your punches against resistance.Has anyone used this before ?is it any good?

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Kathy,

what about folks who weren't lifting when they learned to be soft and have good structure, who then started to lift? Thoughts on them?

Except for those who undertook some type of weight routine for health reasons, I haven't seen this yet. Those who did undertake for health reasons did generally seem to improve whatever health issue it was they were working on, which at least in the respect or being able to practice properly was helpful to their Wing Chun; the general health benefit. However, no noticeable improvement in the overall quality of their Wing Chun execution from what I could tell, or from any reports about it.

I don't have enough data to speak more generally about whether or not it increased the challenge in some way; I've "heard" it does increase the challenge, but I don't know to what degree such reports are reliable. I've also "heard" that it has less of an impact to start weights later, and this I can swallow a bit more easily on the basis that the body has learned at least to some degree about Wing Chun relaxedness before introducing the perturbation. Again, there could be exceptions outside the scope of my sample set, so I can offer observations, but cannot be conclusive about it.

As an aside, I don't think I have met anyone who has learned to be "soft enough" yet (read, fully functional yet undetectable and unusable); only people who are closer to the ideal than others. It's a continuing work in progess. Not surprisingly, Ken is the closest I know of in Wing Chun, and dang if he doesn't seem to get even smoother and more undetectable as time goes on.

OTOH, I have known some serious lifters who gave it up. Notably, one of Ken's more advanced students recently, if reluctantly, stopped lifting in favor of Wing Chun, as he conceded that it seemed to be impeding his progress. He had been seriously dedicated to weight training for years, and while I don't know what his lifting routine was, he is distinctly not the sort to approach much of anything in half-smashed, unintelligent or uneducated manner. It was apparently a very difficult decision for him. I've no doubt he's still a fitness nut, but sans the weight routine. I'll be interested to hear his findings after another year or two.



'Like most people' would be 'like a moron with no plan'- think of it as randomly performed half-taught purposeless qi gong, and you'll understand what most weightlifting people do is. No science, no understanding, little gain.

I hear you there with total clarity. As little as I know about weight training (and I promise, it isn't much), I have probably researched more than some who regularly pump it up, which is sad to say.

I would love to actually see first hand success stories where weight training was a specific help to Wing Chun or even that it generally had no impact. There is little that would please me more than a symbiotic relationship between modern weight training or other methods and Wing Chun progress. Trust me, if there is a shortcut or enhancement method, I would love to take it!

I do think there must be some balance point between the two where weight training won't especially hurt or hinder one's Wing Chun, though I don't know how easy it is to find that perfect juncture, or to what degree it varies by individual. I sure hope to find it though, LOL.

So while I have not seen the synergy between weights and Wing Chun yet, I retain a cautiously open mind that someday I might. Maybe you will even be the guy who resolves the seeming disconnect. Based on your writing, background, and predilection for research and experimentation, I've grown a high degree of respect for your views on such things and others over the years, and you've a better than average shot at being the one to convince me yet.

I'm keeping my eyes peeled for tangible evidence that solidly refutes our more traditional training advice. Meanwhile, and to the relief of the lifting proponents, I'll excuse myself from the thread, LOL.

Regards,
- kj

[TjD]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Travis,

the Party rules! Why the 5x5 thing with long rest intervals? What are you trying to do? The short rest interval gives you hypertrophy, the long, strength. It sounds like you're doing strength stuff, but why not pull some singles or doubles in there?



definately going for strength, not hypertrophy. however i've found that the 5 sets of 5 helps me build a little extra mass (which i definately could use :D )

i'm not killing myself by doing the bear, so lifting doesnt impede my WC practice, the strength gains are great, and i like the extra muscle im putting on (for purely asthetic reasons).

the routine is giving me really strength good gains... so i don't see too much reason to screw with it :D

[EnterTheWhip]

If you're going to invest time in weight training for the supposed benefit of your Wing Chun, why not use the time more wisely by training the WC weapons? That would be far more beneficial to you. However, if you don't know the weapons, training with weights using motions similar to those done in WC, would also be helpful.

Another alternative is the Bo Flex (sp.?).

But my bottom line is, unless you want to become The Rock, use the time for Wing Chun. That is, if Wing Chun is #1.

[AndrewS]

Ernie,

as we're only a few miles apart we should catch up face to face some time and trade martial and conditioning info. I'm lifting with my girlfriend right now, so I'm not looking for a lifting partner, but if I start with Oly lifts and we get a platform down in WeHo, you'd be welcome there- better drive than Venice.

Faze,

Bruce was doing 'good mornings' Bruce trained like an idiot. His regimens fail to include this thing called 'rest' which is necessary for improvements. Not taking anything away from the guy- he's the first (besides Leo Fong) to really address conditioning, but he succeeded in spite of many of his methods.

Oly lifters (snatch, c&j) seem to have the lowest injury rates of any type of athlete- a very surprising piece of info).

Kathy,

fwiw- two schemes have had the least day to day impact on my WT performance- kettlebell work 5-6 days a week, varying intensity, doing hard cardio one day, circuts the next, technical another day, and Pavel's 5x2 5 minute rest scheme with deadlifts + training lifts for squats one day, squats with training lifts for deadlifts the next, kettlebells the next, then rest. These basically did nothing but good for my performance. Stuff like the hypertrophy work I'm doing now is definitely short term sacrifice for long-term gain.

Isn't Eric Burnett from your line? He'd started weights later in his training and was very happy with his results, I believe.

When it comes to Ken- here's my take, based on training with my sifu, and a bunch of other people- no one gets good exactly the same way. If I try to condition and train like my sifu, to emulate the training regimen of an elite athlete, I'm gonna get hurt. I've seen guys try to train like him- they get injured, fast, 'cos his recovery times, fiber type, neurology, etc. support him doing the stuff which makes him better. I need to find the ways to make myself better, and those are *my* ways.

Ken (and others, Leung Ting among them) decry the rough, hard muscular ways of their youth- to what extent was that a necessary conditioning background for their present skill?

Thanks for the kudos, but the best argument for weights is experiential. Learn to use them well, and feel the difference. I got softer when I started to lift, as my balance and kinetic linkages improved.


Travis,

hey, why argue with a winning game plan? You're getting sore off that with 5 minutes rest intervals- are you getting protein within an hour post-workout?

ETW-

I don't have the Wing Chun weapons, but I do train with long staves, middle-length stuff, and sticks, as well as some over-weighted weaponry (3 3/4" diameter, 5 ft long pieces of rebar duct-taped together to emulate a great sword, parking meter, or stop sign). Useful stuff. Weights seem to provide a more versitile conditioning base, though- they carry over to my floorwork better.

Later,

Andrew

[EnterTheWhip]

The bottom line is the only thing that can make your Wing Chun better is Wing Chun.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Kathy,

Isn't Eric Burnett from your line? He'd started weights later in his training and was very happy with his results, I believe.


Eric Neeck maybe?
I can only imagine the cringes on my training bro's faces if I were to start lifting weights. :P

[AndrewS]

Hey Eric B,

could be, sorry about taking your name in vane. Did he train with Jerry McKinley then under Ken? Last time there was weightlifting flamefest on the WCML, one Eric was chiming in. My brain may be fried, though.


ETW,

only to the extent which all motion may be perceived and executed through the lens of Wing Chun. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Later,

Andrew

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by AndrewS
ETW, only to the extent which all motion may be perceived and executed through the lens of Wing Chun. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly disagree. All WC motions should be perceived and executed through the lens of Wing Chun.

[TjD]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Travis,

hey, why argue with a winning game plan? You're getting sore off that with 5 minutes rest intervals- are you getting protein within an hour post-workout?



definately getting the protein :D my problem was less that i was getting sore and more that my muscles were really fatigued. i dont get the fatigue from 5x5, while 10x5 got my muscles pretty tired and it affected my WC.

i also practice the knives/pole in addition to lifting. the lifting has only helped them. squats have really improved my ability to hold the low horse stance. for the knives i've found the lifting doesn't get in the way and they're an insane forearm workout :D

[fa_jing]

You have to try a bunch of different stuff to know what works for you. Also, time considerations play into anyone's decision.

I can see how, instead of doing my power pushup etc. today I could have had the energy to do 1000 punches. My priorities don't lie with Wing Chun right now.

To all: what if it doesn't help your Wing Chun, but it does help your fighting?


Another question, for those that do lift weights: Do you think it is wise to do Wing chun training (punches etc.) after you lift weights, or split these up into seperate days?

[TjD]

i do them on the same days - i try to train my WC every day.

however, i don't do them on the same time. i usually give my body a few hours to recouperate after lifting before doing any WC and i usually give my body a few hours after wing chun before i start lifting :D

[Ernie]

andrew
lets do it bro , email me i'll give you my number and we can hang out there's a few wsl brothers in venice i will be training with soon so your welcome as well . if not we can just get together no problem. you seem like good people and i'm always down to learn .

[kj]

Hi Andrew.


Originally posted by AndrewS
Isn't Eric Burnett from your line? He'd started weights later in his training and was very happy with his results, I believe.

I think you are referring to Eric Neeck as others mentioned. Yes, he was very happy with his results. As I understand it, the impetus for his training regimine was first and foremost to improve his overall health and well-being. That said, there are numerous possible grounds for his overwhelming satisfaction, among them:


Improvement in his general wellness and fitness, including increased energy, and easier carriage and mobility, both in and out of Wing Chun context (highly desireable and likely, IMHO)
Improvement in the functional and mechanical aspects of his body (e.g., orthopaedic, neuromuscular, and other physiological functions), above and beyond what he experienced in his Wing Chun work and yet directly translating to that work (possibly)
Maintenance or increase in his ability to utilize his existing or newly acquired strength and mass to success against smaller, weaker, and less skilled partners without realizing he is doing so (as a large man to begin with, this is likely at least in degrees, IMHO)
An increase in his ability to relinquish use of strength in the large muscle groups in favor of the smaller and less committed joint alignments and adjustments we prefer, and which are crucial for our particular way and goals for training (knowing how hard earned this non-instinctive attribute is, unlikely that his strength training would help in this regard, IMHO)


Regardless of outcome, I do know Eric was very pleased with the results, and I couldn't be happier for him. His satisfaction, increase in wellness and sense of well-being, and his enjoyment of the work are more than sufficient justification for it, and regardless of positive, neutral, or negative impacts on Wing Chun work.

It has been so long since I have heard from or about Eric, that I'm not even certain if he is still actively training in Wing Chun or not. Considering how much he was enjoying his strength and fitness routine, I wouldn't be surprised if he is currently favoring it over his Wing Chun practice.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Ernie,

check your pm. I'd be up for a run out to Venice. One of my bros is out there (and he's been flaking on training for a year now- needs his cage rattled).

Travis,

what rest interval were you doing for 10x5? Was that a bear thing? I'm on a month of hypertrophy before going back to some mixed PTP and k-bells to cut fat, then on to a serious strength cycle.

Fajing,

I try separate things by a few hours, but that doesn't always happen.

Kathy,

1). I think is pretty iron-clad. Weights are excellent fitness tools, and will make you feel better.

2). Is part of what I'm arguing for.

3). I doubt, if you're being honest with yourself. I can feel when I'm 'muscling', using my mass, etc. Part of developing skill is internal as well as external 'feeling', and I haven't found that I've lost any of that as I've lifted. Once you know the right stuff to use, you can tell when you're using it.

4). The small stuff which holds these alignments is gonna get stronger, too, and strength in those postural groups is part of 'structure'. If they are better able to hold alignment, it should (in theory) be easier to let other things go (i.e. if the shoulder girdle is strong and one has good control of it, you'll be able to relax your neck and deltoids much more).

It would be a pity if Eric stopped training, he's someone I wanted to meet for a while.


Later,

Andrew

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Kathy,

1). I think is pretty iron-clad. Weights are excellent fitness tools, and will make you feel better.

That one is the gimme.



2). Is part of what I'm arguing for.

I presumed as much, and this also serves as a main impetus for my benefit-of-doubt. Too bad there aren't a lot of public or private funds available to thorough research on comparative studies (i.e., modern sports fitness vs. traditional martial arts training methods). I am a huge respecter of modern science and medicine. At the same time, I'm under no illusion that every angle, discovery, or insight has yet been explored or gleaned, and feel there is still a lot of work to be done.



3). I doubt, if you're being honest with yourself. I can feel when I'm 'muscling', using my mass, etc. Part of developing skill is internal as well as external 'feeling', and I haven't found that I've lost any of that as I've lifted. Once you know the right stuff to use, you can tell when you're using it.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time I deluded myself, LOL. You may be entirely correct; I completely confess there are times when either my perceptions are wrong, my biases get in the way, or both. There are, however, some actual bits of evidence leading to my general, albeit inconclusive inclination on this. Among the pieces I find compelling enough to give me pause:

a) Reports from my seniors and betters in observance that I and others were indeed being "out-muscled" by otherwise skillful Wing Chun people on many occasions (lucky for them in the moment, but not a sufficiently controlled experiment). This, rather than just my perceiving it so.

b) Observing the billions of incessant corrections I and so many others continue to receive to stop using so much muscular force, combined with the positive results realized as we respectively (even if temporarily) approach the aim.

c) That even I resort to use of far too much force and strength, despite being one of the least likely candidates to do so. This was painfully underscored to me in recent weeks, even though I remain convinced that I do a better job of avoiding muscling than many, if not most. I also remain convinced that I simply can't get away with relying on that as easily as some others (like the big guys, who don't encounter proportionally as many bigger, stronger, more skillful people than themselves). I truly did not realize just how much I still tend to "fight back" rather than "allow" the mechanics to work for me, and thought I was ****her beyond that than I am. I am hard pressed to fully ignore my own personal experience, just as I am sure you or others are hard pressed to ignore yours.

d) That in observing the work and corrections others endure, many, if not most have more difficulty in abandoning reliance on excessive force even than I do.

None of these are specific to Eric, BTW, as I did not have the luxury to work with him after he buffed up. He may well be the very exception we are looking for.



4). The small stuff which holds these alignments is gonna get stronger, too, and strength in those postural groups is part of 'structure'. If they are better able to hold alignment, it should (in theory) be easier to let other things go (i.e. if the shoulder girdle is strong and one has good control of it, you'll be able to relax your neck and deltoids much more).

While I still hold some caveats around it, I can fully follow your argument, and remain hopeful that such benefits may at least cancel out any potential negative impact of such programs on the MA work of interest to me. Because I personally am in such need of orthopaedic tuneups, this serves as somewhat of a counter balance to my own personal concerns about strength training.

Given enough time, my own inclinations and perspective may change too, based on my own non-WC remedial strength program among other factors. Hopefully this concession that I am still adding to my data set may redeem me a little from seeming too imbalanced. I realize I must seem incorrigible, but perhaps not fully beyond redemption yet, LOL.



It would be a pity if Eric stopped training, he's someone I wanted to meet for a while.

Agreed, and hopefully that is not the case. I only wonder about it, since he has been so absent for so long now.

Regards,
- kj

[TjD]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Travis,

what rest interval were you doing for 10x5? Was that a bear thing? I'm on a month of hypertrophy before going back to some mixed PTP and k-bells to cut fat, then on to a serious strength cycle.


yeah it was the bear, i took around a 4-5 minute rest between sets