Opinion on forum discussions

[Arb]

I've been a member of this forum for a while now, but never posted before. I have lurked and read many of the post. I'm a novice wing chun practioner. Since I'm definitely not as experience as other forum members appeared to be, I was hoping to find some useful discussion on wing chun, and kungfu generally.

Thus far, I have been very disappointed. Although there have been some useful post, its few and far between. I've found the majority of the discussion to be petty, disrespectful of others point of view, and some just down right ignorant. Rather than focusing on open discussion of wing chun techniques, beliefs and way of life, there’s a lot of bad mouthing and bashing of individuals and lineages. Frankly, I expected kungfu practioners to display more tolerance and openness to others point of view.

Also, how do some you guys find time to train?! I have a full-time job…40 hrs/week, sometimes more. I go to kungfu class at least 3 times a week sometimes more. I have more Internet access at work than most. But I could never keep up all the posts the way some of you do!! Especially given the length of some of the threads!!

That said, please don’t take any more time from kungfu training to respond criticizing my point of view, or to correct my grammar, or to challenge me to a fight. I mean no disrespect to any of you esteem kungfu practioners. I apologize in advance if I’ve offended anyone. This post should not in any way be interpreted to be directed at any particular group or individual. The ONLY purpose of this post is to respectfully request that future discussions display more respect, dignity, tolerance and openness to others point of view, techniques, style and lineage.

[azwingchun]

Hey, you know, I couldn't agree anymore with you. I feel the exact same way about this forum. I feel no matter what the system/style/teacher/claimed origins etc, we all can learn from each other. But the learning process seems to be side tracked by everyone's personal opinions and beliefs. I find this pretty sad to be honest.

As far as expecting this not to happen, well I can't say I agree here. Ever since my beginnings in Wing Chun, there has always been this bickering (as well as going on longer than my time). So, I have always expected this sort of behavior. Though, it doesn't have to be this way. If we as Wing Chun family members (regardless of lineage or claims) would just swallow our pride and egos, this forum would be a great place.

I personally don't allow claims about someone's system or Sifu to bother me (I must admit there was a time where it did). But now find them interesting, regardless of superior art or Sifu claims. I am not one who needs you to scientifically or historically prove yourself to me. Though, I do understand that this is important in showing validity of a system for general purposes (such as mentioned, historical proof, etc.). I don't feel the need to prove myself to anyone and therefore don't expect you to have to prove yourself to me. I am of the mind that if you are generally happy in the art you are doing, others claims and statements shouldn't bother you. Unless, you are egotistical or arrogant.

If I make claims today that I am the greatest Wing Chun man alive, some may want to challenge me. Why? How does it affect you by my claims? In reality, it shouldn't and doesn't. It hasn't affected my Wing Chun and/or training in the any way at all. And the best to you and your claims.

Sorry, just letting off some steam. ;)

[anerlich]

This has more in common with a bunch of people sitting around in a bar shooting the breeze than some sort of Order of the Knights Templar. Most just come here to unwind, and bring their foibles with them.

People don't turn into some sort of virtuous monk when they train WC. Indeed, most seem to turn into lineage and style fascists and smarta$$es. The internet just allows them to broadcast their true natures to the world.

If you expect a more exalted atmosphere than that, you'll most likely be disappointed.

I might spend 20 minutes a day on here, tops. I get my full time job, classes and home training done. It's a matter of time management and priorities, which includes some time to wind down.

Not implying any personal criticism, I don't know you, but I would make sure I was more virtuous than another before I criticised their behaviour.

[azwingchun]

Not implying any personal criticism, I don't know you, but I would make sure I was more virtuous than another before I criticised their behaviour.

Not sure if this was intened for me or Arb or both. But I never claimed to be anymore virtuous than anyone else. In fact, I don't think this is required to state an opinion. And having an opinion of civility isn't to much to ask IMHO.


People don't turn into some sort of virtuous monk when they train WC. Indeed, most seem to turn into lineage and style fascists and smart a$$es. The internet just allows them to broadcast their true natures to the world.

Though, this I agree 100%. ;)

[HuangKaiVun]

You have an honorable intent, Arb.

However, this is KFO where people with combative personalities get together and duke it out in a SAFE environment.

Yeah people challenge each other. Yeah people are disrespectful. That's kung fu folk for you.

The idea that kung fu men should be more tolerant is great, but reality is that it isn't that way. Actually, some of the most INtolerant folks I've ever met were kung fu practitioners. This kind of bickering has been around in kung fu for millenia.

When things get too heated, always remember that virtually nobody here (except for the professional martial artists who post at KFO) actually goes out and meets people face to face.

That said, I've met people from this forum like yuanfen and Richard Loewenhagen and Savi (Loewenhagen's disciple) and Dachengdao (Master Wang Regang) who I feel are excellent examples of real life kung fu.

There's a lot of BS here, but there's a lot of real stuff here. Besides, the BS is almost as fun as the real stuff anyway!

[azwingchun]

Speaking of meeting people, I have yet had the chance to meet up with you. I am actually just down the road from your school. I will make it down there soon and put a face to the name. ;)

[sel]

ok i'll try and play nice.;)

[KPM]

I like a comment that was once made on rec.martial arts. I'll paraphrase.....

You get a bunch of martial artists together from different backgrounds and a fight breaks out....go figure!

Keith

[Arb]

If my post implied that I think I'm more virtuous than other...that was not the intention. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why there are so many personal digs, at individuals, lineages, and systems.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm not a wing chun expert, heck, I'm not even close. But I'm sure every lineage and system has its good points, and bad. It's just makes it hard to pick out these points when there seems like there's a multitude of unconstructive criticisms against a lineage, system or individuals.

I understand that on a forum of diverse individuals not everyone will agree, but that shouldn’t be an excuse, to be nasty. I don't expect other forumites to be “virtuous monks”, just a more civil.

I know that no one forces me to come to this forum. However, I think this forum has the potential to be a great resource to wing chun practioners. There are forumites here with lots of insights and skill in wing chun, that could be shared with the general public not fortunate enough to be in the same locale.

Again, this is not directed at any particular individual, system or lineage. My intentions are not to offend anyone.

[Merryprankster]

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why there are so many personal digs, at individuals, lineages, and systems.

I'll sum it up for you: True believer syndrome.

Apoweyn introduced me to this term and I stole it from him. Basically, people have invested a lot of time and effort into something and they have a need, for whatever reason to believe it's the best. A lot of people are incapable of seperating a conversation/argument about an idea or system from personal attacks. And sometimes, people come right out and MAKE personal attacks because they are to stupid or too intellectually lazy to actually argue a point, and others respond (perfectly legit in my book--the responding bit).

Am I guilty of true believerism? Yes--but not in a stylistic way. I'm guilty of true believerism from a training methods perspective. You have to beat the crap out of each other regularly and with some frequency, and face people of many different backgrounds if you want to be any good as a fighter. Other goals are of course, acceptable and may not need that intensity.

Other than that, I don't care what style you do--Hell, I don't even do WC, but I find it fascinating for some reason.

[yuanfen]

MP-
Maybe true believer syndrome for some. Undisciplined ego for many- wc has little to do with it. Anonymous net talk chemistry for others.

Actually- lots of first class wing chun folks are not on lists and
dont engage in trash talk.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


-Hell, I don't even do WC, but I find it fascinating for some reason.

What could be that reason M.P. ?...

[Merryprankster]

Yuan,

Allow me to clarify- true believerism is the result of an undisciplined ego. I realize there are plenty of first class folks who never get involved in this type of stuff.

I liken it to the difference between "in your face" Christians and those who simply live in a way that makes you desire to emulate them. While I would classify the second as "true believers," I would classify the former as those afflicted with "true believerism."

Old Jong, because WC is simple the way wrestling and boxing are simple. You take a few concepts, you design some basic techniques that teach you to use those concepts, and the skies the limit.

However, I would probably never do WC or any other art that has a lot of form focus. I hate forms. Short attention span. Oddly enough, I can drill something 200 times but I just don't like forms. Boredom sets in, I guess.

[HuangKaiVun]

My school is located at the cross streets of Warner and Dobson in Chandler, azwingchun.

I'm next to "Peruanitos", which is next to the big "C-Fu Gourmet" Chinese restaurant.

Come between 5 and 9 PM on weeknights, as we are not open on weekends.

If you'd like, bring some loose fitting clothes and join a free class!

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by old jong


What could be that reason M.P. ?...

Maybe it's because we have the most active forum on KFO after the main Kung Fu forum - LOL. ;)