Steroids.

[Mr Punch]

Thought of this reading something Royal Dragon posted on another thread.

How many of you use steroids?

Do you think they have a legitimate place in MA?

[Mr Punch]

Oh goodie! Can I vote again?!:D

[Brad]

There's no point in taking them. Risk to health greatly outwieghs and benifits in my opinion.

[Surferdude]

Steroids suck...all drugs suck:mad:

[Xebsball]

who was the loser that voted that uses steroids?

[sweaty_dog]

I don't, but steroids are not that terrible. If you know what you are doing and are getting the real thing then they have very minimal side effects. Before somebody posts OH BUT THEY SHRINK YOUR BALLS AND YOUR LIVER EXPLODES AND YOU GO CRAZY, that is in the case of either
1. idiots who take whatever they can get with no idea about dosage regimen or what the steroid actually does or
2. body builders who take everything at once without cycling and in massive doses. You don't hear about responsible steroid use because it doesn't cause much in the way of serious problems. It's true they are not good for your health or personality but probably no worse than drinking regularly. If you are a professional athlete whose career could rest on a few fractions of a second, then of course there is a big temptation there... train without slow recovery periods, make rapid gains in strength etc. If that can get you a million dollar contract then a little liver damage isn't such a big price. On the other hand if you are just shooting some random crap into your muscles to try and look tough then you might be an idiot.

[Surferdude]

Yea who did vote that?:mad: :( :eek: :confused:

[Royal Dragon]

You know, when I was going through my collapse, my doctor actually offered to write me a prescription for steroids to help speed my physical therapy up. In his mind, I had a back injury that badly needed muscular support as fast as possible, and the bennifits in my case out weight the risks.

I declined, and spent about a year longer than needed, and I trained twice as hard as I had to, but I solved the problem for the most part without them.

The interesting part of that whole experiance was this, during the whole time I was doing back therapy, yes, my back got stronger, and later I was mixing in regular conditioning, so my arms chest abs and such got stronger, and my cardio got better, it wan't until THIS year when I returned to regular Kung Fu practice that my energy levels began to return to normal. You would think any exercises would have solved that problem, but it didn't. Only holding deep stances, and doing dynamic tension exercises balanced by Taiji Quan practice returned my energy levels to their normal states.

I'm more than twice as strong today as I was a year ago, and I still suck, and am weak by my previous standards. I'm looking back on it now, and I realise I was in a much deeper darker hole than I originally thought.

That being said, maybe taking my Docs perscription for the Roids would have been a better choice. But then, my recovery today is due to good old fashioned hard work, and Chinese Kung Fu. :D

[IronFist]

Steroids can have side effects, particularly the more androgenic steroids, but it's not quite as bad as what the media says.

For people who do their research, steroids can be quite safe. There are drugs you can take to help counter or prevent many side effects.

Steroids do not cause brain cancer. There are no steroid receptors in the brain.

That being said, there are still side effects. High blood pressure, excess wear on the liver, secondary male sex characteristics (balding, extra body hair, acne, etc.) an increase in estrogen and all the related problems that accompany that.

But that being said, it's nearly impossible to make it into the upper levels of sports (read: pro) without using steroids.

Finally, steroids don't make you an awesome athelete or very strong by themselves. You have to train extra hard and eat an extra lot (if you want to get big).

I didn't vote yet. :D

IronFist

[fa_jing]

I don't think steroids are common in the NBA, or in Tennis. I bet it has a lot to do with the particular athletic demands of these sports, they are heavy on endurance. But there are some that use them, definitely too.

[chen zhen]

Steroids are for cheaters

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by sweaty_dog
OH BUT THEY SHRINK YOUR BALLS AND YOUR LIVER EXPLODES AND YOU GO CRAZY,


So that does happen???:D :p ;)

[freedom76]

Steroids are bad news even by prescription. Not only do they beat on your liver (nearly every drug does), but other common side-effects include paranoia, water retention, sleeping problems, brittle bones, not to mention that you cannot recognize pain as easily. Pain is your body trying to tell you something. Sometimes, pain is good, sometimes bad, but not even getting the message is a problem.
Using steroids seems to be in direct conflict with what martial arts are all about. What happened to personal gain? I think only weak-minded people use steroids to enhancement their development. It's pathetic. The only time I see a benefit in using them is for some medical conditions like asthma, or recovery from some severe physical injury, but to be better at sports or martial arts? C'mon. You need to find some balance.

[Becca]

Originally posted by freedom76
The only time I see a benefit in using them is for some medical conditions like asthma, or recovery from some severe physical injury, but to be better at sports or martial arts? C'mon. You need to find some balance.

Even then, you should be careful of idiotic pill pushers. They may meen well, but I doubt that will come as a consolation later in life when you are hooked up to a dialisys(sp?) machine.:rolleyes:

[sweaty_dog]

"Using steroids seems to be in direct conflict with what martial arts are all about. What happened to personal gain? I think only weak-minded people use steroids to enhancement their development. It's pathetic. The only time I see a benefit in using them is for some medical conditions like asthma, or recovery from some severe physical injury, but to be better at sports or martial arts? C'mon. You need to find some balance."

Why not to be better at sport? If you can make millions of dollars in sponsorship (which in some cases is only a fraction of a second away from nothing at all) and get a good life for you and your family, how exactly is that "pathetic". Morally questonable, yes, but then again there is a pretty good chance that the opposition is not squeaky clean either. Likewise, if your job involves actual physical conflict, then maybe that extra muscle mass and strength will save your life or at least prolong your career. For a hell of a lot of people, having a perfectly functioning liver at the age of 85 is a pretty low priority.


"Even then, you should be careful of idiotic pill pushers. They may meen well, but I doubt that will come as a consolation later in life when you are hooked up to a dialisys(sp?) machine."

You'd be surprised how many "idiotic pill pushers" are actually quite intelligent. There is no one way of helping someone recuperate from injury, western and chinese health systems both have benefits. The kind of dosages most doctors would prescribe for a situation like that would be very unlikely to damage the liver in any serious way. Liver damage mostly occurs with high dosages of oral steroids like dianabol. The liver is also quite capable of regenerating if given a chance to do so. Most steroids are very similar to substances produced naturally in the body, they just create elevated levels of these substances. Exactly how elevated you want those levels to be is up to the individual.

[Royal Dragon]

only time I see a benefit in using them is for some medical conditions like asthma, or recovery from some severe physical injury, but to be better at sports or martial arts? C'mon.

Reply]
Even then, I was in that position, and turned it down. I came out pretty good. I can even do jump spinning 180 fan kicks again.

[shaolin kungfu]

Maybe sweaty dog uses steroids.:p

[sweaty_dog]

Yes, I've used steroids. Just not anabolic ones. By the way, whoever listed "asthma", I hope you are joking. There is more than one kind of steroid, people. I am just trying to point out that there is a more balanced approach to the issue than NO BAD CHEATER CHEATER DRUGS KILL. Anabolic steroids are not for most people, I agree, and they have a big potential for abuse. But maybe you should find out a little bit about what they do instead of taking Chester the Anti-Drug Chipmunk's word for it. The truth is there is a very fine line between "supplementation" and "drug abuse" and calling a professional athlete a loser and weak for choosing to use something that has been made illegal is not necessarily fair or accurate. As with most things the amount and type used is far more relevant than the fact that someone "used steroids", and for people who make a living with their bodies steroids can make a lot of sense.

For those of you who say that tai chi is better, you are probably right in many ways, but there are still plenty of situations where muscle mass and quick recovery are more relevant than being one with the Tao and having good chi circulation.

[IronFist]

Hehe, is Chester the Antidrug Chipmunk a real thing?

lol

IronFist

[Xebsball]

sweaty_dog has SHRINKED BALLS HAHAHA :D

[Surferdude]

So they do shrink your balls!!!!:D ;) :p
hahahahahaha

[joedoe]

I use cortico-steroids for my asthma but would never use performance enhancing steroids. Even then, I would prefer to be able to stop using the cortico-steroids but unfortunately my asthma is still pretty bad. My doctor has expressed concerns that the long-term use of the cortico-steroids will result in serious problems later in life.

I personally do not think that it would be as satisfying achieving the pinnacle of sports performance but relying on performance enhancing substances to do so. It would be a bit of an empty achievement to me. But then, not everyone feels the same way that I do.

[Xebsball]

the roids for medical reasons are ok if the dude using calculates the pros x cons and gets a good result
the roids for sport and for lookin good are fawgyt shyt beatch ass fock

[sweaty_dog]

Xebsball, let me explain this to you in nice simple words.

You say roids are for faygs, OK, fair enough. You wouldn't walk up to a vale tudo champ or a powerlifter and say this though, would you? That's because the steroids make them big, strong and aggressive. For people who need to be big, strong and aggressive, steroids make sense. For people who want to have good health and talk rubbish on the internet, they are less important. That is why I don't use them myself.


"I personally do not think that it would be as satisfying achieving the pinnacle of sports performance but relying on performance enhancing substances to do so. It would be a bit of an empty achievement to me. But then, not everyone feels the same way that I do."

I agree. But there is also the $$$, which for some people makes a very big difference. Steroids can also help people recover from an injury which would end their careers, or build up muscle to prevent injury. I respect people who don't use them more, but the people that do probably still train far harder than I can imagine.

[Laughing Cow]

Xebs.

A friend of mine was involved in a car accident many years ago, really buggered up his back badly.

He was put on a course of steroids to help him heal, he never had any sideffecs except that the roids with the recommended training routine(weights) resulted in increased muscle growth.

Like with anything if used correctly they are ok and can be benefitial.

Knowing it from my own experience when I did weights, I was offered plenty of steroids from Gym owners, in the locker-room, etc most of those were illegal, of doubtful quality and strength.

Here is where the danger comes in when you buy and use "under-the-counter" steroids and follow "suggested dosages", etc.

Said that I have alos know guys tht got big using "over-the counter" anabolic supplements(Tablets), certain diets(Potato, whole brown rice, etc) , good training programs and additonal stuff like dessicated liver tables.

Cheers.

[Xebsball]

LC, i said for medical reasons is ok mkay :cool:

sweaty,
yes i would say its for fawgyt shyte. you think theyre so big, but xebby is bigger than most vale tudo champions - fact, im bigger than Minotauro or Vanderlei Silva for example. Not as fit, but yeah bigger :D
stronger and agressiver i dunno.

you thinkin o' money, like oh with roids i make more money on my sport. But there is ETHICS. Like for example say i got this test to get to uni here in brazil called the "vestibular" where you compete with other people to get into university, so a very effective way of winning would be to whack the competition, just kill the most inteligent fockers before they take the test against you, but i dont, cos there is ETHICS son! ETHICS and law! goto jail!!

[joedoe]

Originally posted by sweaty_dog

I agree. But there is also the $$$, which for some people makes a very big difference. Steroids can also help people recover from an injury which would end their careers, or build up muscle to prevent injury. I respect people who don't use them more, but the people that do probably still train far harder than I can imagine.

I understand that. I was only voicing how I feel about the issue. If they have chosen that career path for themselves and feel that is what they must do to maximise their earnings in their career, then that is their decision. I am not going to judge them for that because if there were something I could take to make me a better programmer, I'd consider it too :).

[Xebsball]

i knew i shoulda WHACKED THEM, WHACKED EM ALL, DAMMN!!

ITS MOST EFFECTIVE AND PRODUCTIVE

i get to the best uni, graduate as first place by whacking everyone else taking classes, whats wrong with cheating if it helps you win? :)

cheating = win :)

then after i graduate i make more $$$
then im so rich and so smart

[Xebsball]

DAMMN IF FEELS GOOD TO BE A GANGSTA

i can buy all clothes and cars i want, i fock the beatches with most round ass!!
i have gold teef and gold all over

i might have done wrong shyte, but
I WIN
im such a great bussiness man american profit style

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Xebsball
LC, i said for medical reasons is ok mkay :cool:

Actually, the funny thing is my friend was asked to compete due to his good build thanks to the medical treatment.
;)

He used to joke that everytime he picks up a beer he exercises his muscles in that arm.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

12oz curls.

if i were a professional athlete, and knew i could get away with it, id take steroids.

[JusticeZero]

I don't think they're categorically evil, but I don't really have any need for them for my purposes.

[sweaty_dog]

GDAtrocity & JusticeZero are right on the money.

Xebsball, there are a lot of sports where using steroids isn't tested, some where it isn't even illegal. 45-50% of baseball players supposedly use them. Some countries don't restrict them at all. Even if it isn't legal, is it more ethical to not cheat or to make enough money to provide for your whole family? If you get beaten by someone who's using them, is it all worth it just so you can say "I was more honest"?

Also, it's not how much you weigh, it what it's made of (as in lean muscle, not blubber). I'm bigger than Silva too, but he'd still probably rip my head off and eat it.

[Becca]

Originally posted by sweaty_dog
If you get beaten by someone who's using them, is it all worth it just so you can say "I was more honest"?


To some people, it is. To others, no. It's like how some people find it important to look at some situation or event with an impatial eye untill they feel they have a good idea what really happened, and others don't.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

becca ... i think that's exactly what sweaty dog wants .... an impaled eye.

seriously though ... why be hatin? i just don't see why someone needs to be judged for doing it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

..... i know you weren't hatin becca ... my post kinda sounded like i meant you.

actually it sounded like you were saying the same thing about reserving judgement.

[Becca]

GDA:
Yes, I was. I don't like it when others do that to me, so I try not to do that to them. (Don't always work that way, but I do try)

[Serpent]

I think any kind of sporting excellence should be a result of hard training, not what drugs you can afford.

Except snowboarding. An olympic snowboarder (I don't remember who) was drug tested and they found pot in his system (uh-duh!) When they raised the issue his reply was priceless:

"Well, dude, it's hardly performance enhancing. And, you know, besides, if it wasn't for pot there wouldn't be such a thing as snowboarding."

Beautiful.

(In case anyone anal out there goes and looks up the original quote, I'm paraphrasing from memory with a little artistic licence, ok. Geez!)

:)

[Mr Punch]

For me it's simple.

People use all kinds of equipment in sport: but the latest running shoes aren't gonna make that much more of a difference than the second latest running shoes... Much less of a difference than roids. But of course, roids do nothing much unless you put in the hours with them... so there is still kung fu involved.

The latest nut-guard will enable you to take a better kick to the grollies than, say, no nut-guard (:eek: ), and there is no fu involved...

So why are roids bad? Because they are changing your body (and often your mind) in an unnatural way: it's no longer YOU out there...

Just my take. I wouldn't use them. **** the money, I'm up for personal achievement... if my personal achievement happens to bring money, cool (especially if I can beat down a couple of roided freaks in the process...!:D). And I don't care what anyone else is doing... that's only my business if I can't kick em in the nuts cos they've shrunk too small :eek: :D .


Shrunken Dog
If you get beaten by someone who's using them, is it all worth it just so you can say "I was more honest"? I'd say it was worth it, not out of honesty, but just because it's me. If you know your enemy, and can beat him, and you know yourself and can lose,and learn from the experience, to me that's better than a chemical-induced six-pack of red-mist.

And as for supplements, I eat good food, which does for my body exactly what I planned. I check the supplements I use to make sure their chemical make-up is as close to natural substances with natural buffers as I can, and I use them to help the food do its job.

[Becca]

I respect your oppinion and your right to paraphrase from memory. In fact, I agree. But I also respect other's right to disagree.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Becca
I respect your oppinion and your right to paraphrase from memory. In fact, I agree. But I also respect other's right to disagree.

What do you agree and disagree with? You lost me a bit there. ;)

[Becca]

"I think any kind of sporting excellence should be a result of hard training, not what drugs you can afford."

If you ain't good enough with out 'em, you'll never be good enough with them. Also, if you take riods and win against someone who doesn't, did you win because you are better? Or just bigger?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Becca
"I think any kind of sporting excellence should be a result of hard training, not what drugs you can afford."

If you ain't good enough with out 'em, you'll never be good enough with them. Also, if you take riods and win against someone who doesn't, did you win because you are better? Or just bigger?

This may not be entirely correct. Roids on their own don't do much for you - you still have to train to get benefit out of them. They just give you a boost up that you would not get without them. And don't forget that the benefit is better strength and endurance - they don't enhance skill (though some might argue that with the enhanced strength and endurance you don't need as much skill).

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with them either. However if winning/performing means that much to someone that they will take them, then that is their own lookout. I choose not to and if they beat me it doesn't really matter to me as long as I know I gave it everything I had.

[Serpent]

Right, with you now. Well said, my sentiments exactly. And also, sport is supposed to be a test of human physical ability, not human chemical ability. ;)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

the wierd thing is i refuse to cheat at cards.

but i don't play cards for money. if i did ... and my oponents weren't my friends .... it might be a whole differant story.

[shaolin kungfu]

I agree with GDA. If I played cards for money, I'd use roids to.

[sticky fingers]

I've got a big, nasty 'roid right now...but the Preparation H is helping. Oh we're talking about steroids??



Originally posted by freedom76
Steroids are bad news even by prescription. Not only do they beat on your liver (nearly every drug does), but other common side-effects include paranoia, water retention, sleeping problems, brittle bones, not to mention that you cannot recognize pain as easily.

there are 2 types of steroids - catabolic (corticosteroids) and anabolic.
You've listed the side effects of cortico-steroids, not anabolic roids. If anything, anabolic steroids will make your bones bigger and stronger (notice the women bodybuilders with the unusually square jawline)

I don't agree with the use of anabolic roids in competitive sport. But for aesthetic purposes , it's your own choice to enjoy the benefits of the bigger muscles ...or suffer the consequences of stroke or heart attack. Personally, I wouldn't use the it for the sake of vanity.