How do you get out of an armlock?

[chen zhen]

I tryed out grappling for the first time last week at a JKD school, and I was introduced to the upa drill, and then I had a freestyle wrestling match with the schools assistant instructor. I did pretty well, considering I'm a newbie at this fighting range, I had the guy in a leglock at one time (which he got out of).
Then at last he got me in an armlock (the one where his legs are on both sides of your arm and placed on your chest), and I had to tap out.
Then I wondered: what am I supposed to do in this situation? what's the standard counter technique to an armlock? And don't mention the dirty tricks, like biting the leg or something like that, I had figured them out already while I was lying there.:)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by chen zhen
Then at last he got me in an armlock (the one where his legs are on both sides of your arm and placed on your chest), and I had to tap out.
Then I wondered: what am I supposed to do in this situation? what's the standard counter technique to an armlock? I believe the standard response would be to struggle like a hooked fish before hearing a sick snap, and feeling an intense agony as your elbow bends the way it shouldn't...

I think the problem is you've allowed it to go to far. You should try and counter it before it gets to this point...

at which point in the discussion you have to say how he got to this point... and talk to someone who something about what they're talking about...

which completely lets me off!:D

Bye!

[chen zhen]

I see your point.. I just have to know when it's coming, and how to stop it at the right time. And that, takes a lot of hard training to reach that point:) remember, it was my first time.
i did one thing, though.. I turned my arm so that it was the inner part of my elbow he was pulling downward, and not the outer, to not allow him to snap it. I tapped, not because it started to hurt, but because I could feel I couldn't go further, being locked down and everything.:rolleyes:

[Vapour]

I do bit of judo. Firstly, once arm lock is properly set, there isn't anything you can do. That is the whole point of *lock*. So you have to get out before the lock set in.

The moment before you think your opponent is moving into the lock, you have to relax your arm and turn your arm in the way so that it will not get locked.

Aside from that advice is to learn how to properly do arm lock.

Few thing you can keep in mind are

*position of your hip
*your grip/twist
*your leg have to be properly corssed to prevent opponent's other arm to come into rescue.

If you know what to do and what not to do when attempting arm lock, you also know how to get out from arm lock *attempt*.

Once arm lock is in, you tap.

[Empty Fist]

"bite, are we not animals?" - Bruce Lee

[Merryprankster]

Biting's a terrible suggestion, FWIW. I won't let go; I'll break your arm. The chances of you taking a chunk out of my leg are pretty small although I'm sure you'd break skin...

Anyway, to get you out of that armlock, there ARE things you can do, even if it's extended. Take the following steps.

1. Try to snatch your elbow into your body and turn your hand. An armlock is strongest when your thumb is facing directly away from his hips. Turn your hand as though you were trying to turn your thumb towards your ear--then keep turning it. Notice that your elbow is no longer facing towards the ground--this gives you more time to figure out what to do next. He's going to try and bring it back repeatedly, so you're going to have to keep moving your arm like this.

2. Come up slightly on your shoulders and feet and try to crab your your feet out AWAY from him. Try to make your body as parallel as you can. He should be perpendicular to you. The more parallel you can be, the better. Don't go the other way or you'll set yourself up for failure.

3. As you are coming parallel, and once you have a little space and time, start forcing your thumb down even more and turn your body with the rotation of your hand. Start to think of yourself as a drill and whatever way you turn your hand/thumb, your shoulder and body follow. Learn to leg under vice roll over. It will help.

The above three steps are general, but should help you get out.

Realize that if he has his knees together tight and his feet flat on the ground, this will be MUCH harder for you to do. In that case, do step one, but, right afterwards:

1a. With your free hand, start pushing the leg that's on your face, off over your head. A bridge will help to some extent. The higher you can get the leg on your head, the better your escape chances. Proceed with steps 2 through 3 and come up to your knees whenever possible. Once that leg is nearly off your face, don't let go--you'll notice his knee pressure is drastically reduced and that's the key to controlling your body!

If there is enough space, as he is going for it, snatch your arm as though you were trying to drive your elbow into the mat and turn your body towards him as you do so. This will help keep him from getting your elbow on his hips.

Finally, you can tap. ;)

There are other variations on this theme, involving walking around people's head and stuff, but that comes once you figure out the first bits.

Good luck!

[chen zhen]

Thanks for that, MP, I had to read that through a few times:)

[fragbot]

3 things are important, it's best they happen all at the same time:

1) when you feel the juji gatame coming on, begin turning your body *into* the lock.

2) relax your arm and shoulder as much as possible since it's more difficult to lock someone relaxed

3) pull your elbow and arm in towards your body

FWIW, even if you do all this correctly, you'll still get locked if you start too late or if the person you're with is significantly better than you.

[cho]

do what the ninjas do: dislocate your shoulder and wiggle out of it.

[Royal Dragon]

Try this, with your free hand slap either the ground, or your open thigh 9 times in rapid sucsesion and very firmly state "Uncle!" in a loud and clear voice.

If he is well trained, he will be brainwashed into letting go. His programming will be so powerfull, he won't be able to help himself. Then get up, and kick him in the nads :p

When he complains, tell him Kung Fu is too brutal for the ring, and has no rules so anythings 'a go.













:eek:














OK, OK, I'm just joking!!! :D :p :D

[chen zhen]

:confused: :eek: ...:D
Ok, I'll try your suggestions out.. thanks fellahs ;)

I'm gonna start at the JKD place next month, the place was pretty good. The instructor's got his instructor-license from Paul Vunak some years ago. They teach all sorts of good fighting-tools, like groundfighting (a mix of BJJ and Vale Tudo), Kali, kickboxing/boxing, and WC trapping techs. It's a little different from what i've trained before, but I need some realistic fighting skills. and that's the place! :)

[IronFist]

I can't believe I'm contributing to a grappling thread. I suck at grappling.

Anyway, check this out.

If he's putting you in an arm bar from the mount (he's mounted you), as soon as he secures your hand to his chest and begins to step over you (before he lays down to the side), grab your own hand with your free hand. When he rolls to the side to lock your arm, roll with him so basically you end up over him on your knees kind of and he's on his back. Remember that it's important to bend your elbow as you are rolling so incase you mess up he can't lock your arm.

I hope that makes sense. Once you're on top of him (you'll be on your knees, he'll be on his back), it's just a matter of wiggling your arm out of his grip. It's hard, but it's better than having your elbow broken.

I have myself doing this on video when I was fighting one of the higher up guys in my college's NHB club. I wish I could put that part online so you could see it.

Do it slowly with a partner and you should get it.

Good luck,

IronFist

[SevenStar]

you can grab your arm, but if the guy is doing the armbar properly, you will NOT be on top of him. If you are able to roll over like that, it means that he gave you too much space when he was bringing his leg over. Either that or he tried to sit before he put his leg over you, which is a no no.

After grabbing your arm, try to turn into him and follow MPs advice. be careful while turning into him though, as you don't want to turn right into a triangle choke.

[Empty Fist]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]Biting's a terrible suggestion, FWIW. I won't let go; I'll break your arm. The chances of you taking a chunk out of my leg are pretty small although I'm sure you'd break skin...

Biting is not a terrible suggestion, as a matter of fact, it is the most practical and quickest response to apply in this situation assuming we are talking about a real fight (competition biting is not allowed). I’ve trained over three years in Judo. Read Vapor’s post. Pretty much if done properly, you are not going to get out of an arm lock. Therefore, any of Merryprankster’s suggestions are pretty much useless “if the arm lock is done properly” which I think he pretty much alluded to by always having the option to tap. However, Merryprankster’s techniques that he suggested do have some merit if an arm lock is not done properly.

My suggestion for biting is for a real fight situation. If you bite, your opponent will most likely will release the tension that is helping to create the arm lock itself. This could provide you the opportunity to get out of the arm lock completely or apply other techniques like the one Merryprankster suggested. Hope this helps.

[Royal Dragon]

My suggestion for biting is for a real fight situation. If you bite, your opponent will most likely will release the tension that is helping to create the arm lock itself.

Reply]
Bite=pain

Arm lock can = Break

Once the guy feels Bite, he will respond by getting more ****sed off, and breaking the elbow of the arm he's locking.

Sure, your going to get out of it, but by biteing, your just going to motivate him to bust your arm more.

I'm not a grappeling expert or anything, but I do know enough about fighting to know that pain compliance techniques only work on the weak minded. Adrenelin makes pain go away. Only techniques that take away an opponents structure and ability to fight work reliably. I'd think comming up wiht an escape that prevents him form being able to controll yuo from a physiscs standpoint wuld be much better than hoping he's weak minded enough to fall for a pain compliance technique.

Seriously, didn't Tyso bite Holifields ear half off, and still loose to him (Disqualifacations not withstanding)?

Then there is the whole "Aids" thing too.

[chen zhen]

Allright, in a real world situation, biting is definately an option, and in many situations, the ONLY option, but not at the kwoon, in a training situation. I don't want to make enemys or get expelled from the place:D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
My suggestion for biting is for a real fight situation. If you bite, your opponent will most likely will release the tension that is helping to create the arm lock itself.

This is flat out untrue, and dangerous. If someone is applying a correct armbar, they are trained, which means that their reaction to a bite is going to be to yank on the arm and break it, not relax.

[Black Jack]

Biting has its place as an option but IMO I would put it in the psychological set up phase and not be any means an end all be all or first strike position.

Though on a speculative level it "could" be a fight ender.

Grab somebody's face and bite their nose off and that would take the fight out of most. As a set-up I would say like hair-pulling/manipulation the bite has to be very non-telegraphic and quick. Like when someone knows their hair is going to be pulled as your partner does it slow, it is very much more resistable, but when done jerking fast and aggressive it really is different.

The bite is nasty IMO on a psychological level when it is done on the face, the checks, nose, lips, or even on a serious physical level if done on the voicebox or carotids.

[chen zhen]

A bite to the leg could be dangerous to yourself also, if the guy has strong and tough lower legs, and/or he pulls it violently out of your mouth in pain, you've gotta go see a dentist afterwards:(

[Royal Dragon]

FatherDog,
Thank you. Biting "May" or "may not" have a place, but useing it to get out of an arm lock is not one of them. Even us lowly Kung Fu guys know the BJJ guy will break your elbow if you try to bite him.

[Merryprankster]

Empty Fist,

Biting as a way out of an armlock is a stupid idea, and I don't hesitate to say it. Real world defense dictates that you actually learn how to get out. If you want to use biting IN COMBINATION with some of the things I or others have suggested, that's fine, I suppose. Vapor has done some Judo, true, and his suggestions aren't exactly wrong--but giving up just because you are in a tight spot isn't the answer--there are some things you can do, and I have posted them.

I might also point out that biting has some severe limits depending on what your opponent is wearing. Blue Jeans anyone? May not get much effect beyond pain--which isn't enough in many cases. Our teeth just aren't made for rending, sorry.

My suggestions are NOT useless, thank you. It's like saying a punch properly thrown can't be blocked or evaded. That's crap and will remain so regardless of any protestations.

"If done right, no can defense?" Give me a break (bite?)

:rolleyes:

[taijiquan_student]

I love how it's the grappling guy that actually thinks of realistic shi.t like what kind of pants the guy might be wearing, and it's the deadly kungfu guy that bases things on what he thinks might possibly happen. I thought those BJJ people were inferior and low level, and completely unprepared for vicious biting and ball-grabbing. My whole universe is crumbling.

[Royal Dragon]

I love how it's the grappling guy that actually thinks of realistic shi.t like what kind of pants the guy might be wearing, and it's the deadly kungfu guy that bases things on what he thinks might possibly happen

Umm excuse me, but THIS deadly Kung Fu guy is agreeing with the Graple head guy. I'm looking at it from a pain compliance VS. structural incapacitation perspective, but still I got the same answeres.

[taijiquan_student]

Well pardon moi. I think you know I was talking about emptyfist.

THIS deadly kungfu guy agrees with you and the grapple-head.

[Empty Fist]

Merryprankster

You bite off my head (no pun intended) for suggesting a simple technique? Obviously you don’t have a friggin’ clue to what I’m talking about. What happens when someone punches you in the stomach or the balls? You are going to bend over and hold your stomach or balls. That’s a normal reaction for most people. What I’m suggesting if you bite someone, the person doing the arm lock MAY release their arm lock to grab or hold the source of the pain (bite). Will a bite work in every situation? Hell no but it is a quick and simple technique that can be used. FYI a human bite exerts 200 pounds per square inch of pressure.

Royal Dragon makes a good point about Aids but if someone is willing to break my arm who knows what else they are willing to do. I’ll take my chances. I think everyone’s suggestions have merit. You just have to be aware of your options and use them as you see fit. Enough said.

[Xebsball]

bitting = HOW ABOUT A BIG BUCKET O' AIDS!!?!

:D

really, to escape an armlock you need to not let it happen, cos once it happens it sucks dude

[Black Jack]

First off blood born pathogens are not that common and the chances are low on you getting aids. Second if you did get a case of full blown aids and that bite bought you 10 more years of life instead of getting greased right their then I would go for the 10 more years of living.

Saying that, I would also point out that biting would be a very last ditch deal for me. Hopefully the situation and my training would provide me with a much more viable means of escape without having to take that drastic measure as a tactic.

Just saying I am not going to throw it out as you never know what the heck you might ever be forced to use. Not something I practice on a monthly schedule. More like conceptual thought on the idea.

[Christopher M]

Chen zhen,


Originally posted by Merryprankster
Try to snatch your elbow into your body and turn your hand... Turn your hand as though you were trying to turn your thumb towards your ear--then keep turning it... you're going to have to keep moving your arm like this.

...try to crab your your feet out AWAY from him. Try to make your body as parallel as you can.

...start forcing your thumb down even more and turn your body with the rotation of your hand. Start to think of yourself as a drill and whatever way you turn your hand/thumb, your shoulder and body follow.

If you consider your arm as a bar, and the lock as someone trying to bend the bar a certain way; the natural reaction is usually to contract your own muscles in opposition to this contortion: to bend the bar the other way.

A more skillfull reaction might be to act is if the bar was the diameter of a wheel, and move your body in such a fashion as to "turn" the wheel.

Of course, the skillfull mechanic for such things would depend upon the movement of your entire body in a relaxed and coordinated fashion, rather than a segment of it in a tense and isolated fashion.

A great example of this has allready been posted above. "Concieving" of your reaction as the above-described sort of pivot that defeats your opponent's force by redefining the parameters of ideal angle, rather than by opposing the force along a predefined parameter... has, I've found, been a useful "mind game" for unlearning the natural reflex for tension and opposition. The trick here is learning to identify the pivot points as they are defined by the tension a specific lock puts you under, and in learning to stay relaxed and coordinated. Of course, this makes alot more sense hands-on, rather than "words"-on... but, on the off chance that it might help, eh?

Good luck.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
Merryprankster

You bite off my head (no pun intended) for suggesting a simple technique? Obviously you don’t have a friggin’ clue to what I’m talking about. What happens when someone punches you in the stomach or the balls? You are going to bend over and hold your stomach or balls. That’s a normal reaction for most people. What I’m suggesting if you bite someone, the person doing the arm lock MAY release their arm lock to grab or hold the source of the pain (bite). Will a bite work in every situation? Hell no but it is a quick and simple technique that can be used. FYI a human bite exerts 200 pounds per square inch of pressure.



What MP is saying is that you can't realistically base your self defense off of the assmuption that someone MAY release their lock - that's too low %.

the strike to the nads is a good example. When adrenaline is rushing, you often times won't feel the nad shot until after the confrontation. As far as biting, that will only make him want to break your arm more... When I'm rolling with someone and we both end up going for a leg lock, you know what I do? Try to lock him faster, NOT let go of my lock. When someone is in my guard and digging their elbows into my knees, do I just quit and let them pass my guard? No, I either move myself, their elbows or let them tir themselves for a bit. I think such reactions are typical.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Empty Vessel
Obviously you don’t have a friggin�Eclue to what I’m talking about.No, because what you're talking about is obviously very very deep and difficult to understand, and obviously born of lots and lots of practical unarguable experience. As opposed to MP, who's never thought about these things, and let's face it, is such a simple character, he can barely tie his own shoelaces... Big fat :rolleyes:.

What happens when someone punches you in the stomach or the balls?
Well, somebody gets a clear shot in your stomach, they're gonna double you up. But if someone gets that clear a shot in your stomach, you're unlucky, you're not a fighter, or they've already hit you with a combo that'll mess you up anyway.

When somebody hits you in the balls, usually you're ok. When someone gets a good shot to your balls, usually it takes a few seconds, or longer, until the adrenaline has cleared, for you to feel anything. Ok, if someone gets a very good shot to your balls, you're unlucky, you're not a fighter, or they've already hit you with a combo that'll mess you up anyway.

You are going to bend over and hold your stomach or balls. That’s a normal reaction for most people.
Have you ever had a shot to the balls when you're riled up? Get your GF (if you have one) to call you a ***** to **** you off, then get her to kick you in the nuts... It'll be an interesting test, and it may even spice up your love life a bit. Please video it and post it here on KFO.

Quite apart from which, shots to the balls and the stomach are a different kind of pain experience to a bite on the thigh. Try and stick with the programme.

What I’m suggesting if you bite someone, the person doing the arm lock MAY release their arm lock to grab or hold the source of the pain (bite).
Yes, indeed, they may. Or a passing train may run over his head.

But if I'm in pain, I don't relax so often... I tighten up. And that breaks your arm.

Will a bite work in every situation? Hell no but it is a quick and simple technique that can be used.... prior to swallowing your food. Please don't get eating and fighting confused again.

I'm with BJ.

Give him a BJ. That'll stop him.

Er no, I'm with B(lack) J(ack). His last post was on the button(Jesus, that's at least twice I've said that...). And MP.

Biting will work if you are prepared to take a piece out of someone's face... otherwise stick to MP's suggestions...

FYI a human bite exerts 200 pounds per square inch of pressure.
What, everyone's...? what happens if you're a slack-jawed fa*got?!:D

[Merryprankster]

EF,

I'm sorry, which part of "if you want to bite in conjunction with some other stuff," did you not understand? Bite alone won't work, which is certainly what you seemed to suggest originally. Pain compliance is UNRELIABLE and should be used to de-escalate if and only if you are in a position of dominance (IE, quit now, or I break your arm, choke you out, kickstomp you...). In chen zhen's situation, GETTING OUT is your primary focus, or you are likely to become incapacitated.


Obviously you don’t have a friggin’ clue to what I’m talking about.

Obviously, you don't know how to get out of an arm lock.


What happens when someone punches you in the stomach or the balls? You are going to bend over and hold your stomach or balls. That’s a normal reaction for most people.

You've seen too many movies and/or are confusing reactions in a non-threatening environment with those that are dangerous. I have the liberty of curling up into a ball when I accidentally rack my boys on a counter corner in the kitchen--in a fight, I don't. Once again we've gone back to the "just hit 'em here and take the fight out of 'em response."

And FWIW, Chris M, who I believe has never done Sub grappling of any sort in his life, hit it on the head--it's all about angles and moving in such a way so as to facilitate those angles.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Firstly, once arm lock is properly set, there isn't anything you can do. That is the whole point of *lock*. "

Theres a reversal to every type of lock there is :)
called "anti chin na"
For the arm lock?
if your arm bends, and you can get your body around his leg lower on your chest, get yourself to basically be sitting on his chest, Will partially lock his leg, making him let you go. But then you gotta realize he still has a free arm and your back is to his face.... so... :)
There was one other one I learned... These **** panlor they gave me for my arm f*ck me up tho.
I like being stoned, but not f*cked on pills. :(
Stupid doctor. Why didnt he just give me tylenol?
:)

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
What happens when someone punches you in the stomach or the balls? You are going to bend over and hold your stomach or balls. That’s a normal reaction for most people.


For most people in a normal situation, maybe. For most people whose adrenal glands just gave them a shot, I don't think so.



What I’m suggesting if you bite someone, the person doing the arm lock MAY release their arm lock to grab or hold the source of the pain (bite).


I once had someone bite me while I was working for a lock (not juji gatame but similar). Did it hurt? Yeah, it felt like someone was pinching my arm. Did it cause me to stop (remember this is friendly training with my compadres)? Not even close. Put another way, if anyone here has grappled with someone who tried pinching their way out of a lock or holddown, it has similar effectiveness.

I'm confident in saying that had the situation been real a bite wouldv'e been even less effective unless it targeted something critical.

Responding to the "what if the guy is wearing jeans question?" The bite broke skin through a single-weave judo gi and, several months later, I still have scar tissue that's relatively tender.

Caveat: I doubt it was a full-strength bite.

[Merryprankster]

Interesting about the biting. I was thinking in terms of trying to take a largeish bite, and I figured tightish, thickish jeans might make it harder...

Regardless, you pretty much made my point for me, that biting won't necessarily stop things...

But, broken skin and a little blood? What of it? Now, if somebody removes a good chunk--well, I think that's fairly interesting from a conceptual standpoint. Wierd, but interesting.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
"Firstly, once arm lock is properly set, there isn't anything you can do. That is the whole point of *lock*. "

Theres a reversal to every type of lock there is :)
called "anti chin na"


that's fine, but you have to counter BEFORE the lock is set in. Once it's set, kiss your arm good bye.

[Knifefighter]

If it's a street fight and your arm is locked in tight and fully extended, it's most likely going to be broken anyway. Might as well bite like there's no tomorrow as your last ditch effort if the leg is over your face. Of course, if it's on the street, the leg shouldn't be over your face in the first place.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Interesting about the biting. I was thinking in terms of trying to take a largeish bite, and I figured tightish, thickish jeans might make it harder...


It left a mark about the size of a silver dollar. The gi didn't effect it that much. Tho' I suspect a skin-tight gi might've made a difference.



Regardless, you pretty much made my point for me, that biting won't necessarily stop things...


Er, I sometimes don't communicate very well. That was the point I was trying to make. It didn't stop me and this was friendly. If it were for real, it probably just means I break out all the guys teeth before I'm "done."

Put another way, something about biting turns a self-defense situation--break the elbow and disappear--into something else entirely.



But, broken skin and a little blood? What of it? Now, if somebody removes a good chunk--well, I think that's fairly interesting from a conceptual standpoint. Wierd, but interesting.

Yeah, unless you tear open an artery (possible?), sever a tendon or ligament, or break one of the larger bones, it's mostly a distraction.

While I think it's possible a human could bite into certain arteries or remove a finger/toe, I don't think they'd be able to do much else.

A medium-largish dog, OTOH, could probably do all of the above with sufficient motivation. Which gives me another thought, would someone who's curious at the effects of biting be well-served to look at ER reports of maulings?

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
"Firstly, once arm lock is properly set, there isn't anything you can do. That is the whole point of *lock*. "

Theres a reversal to every type of lock there is :)
called "anti chin na"


Your statement is true and irrelevant to its context.

Yes, every lock has counters.

That being said, they need to be done *before* the lock is on.



For the arm lock?
if your arm bends, and you can get your body around his leg lower on your chest, get yourself to basically be sitting on his chest, Will partially lock his leg, making him let you go. But then you gotta realize he still has a free arm and your back is to his face.... so... :)


I don't think I understand your counter. A properly-applied juji gatame will have one leg over your head to fix your body in relation to mine.

[Merryprankster]

I'm not THAT curious about biting. Morbid.

Knifefighter and Seven are correct. I guess I'm trying to say that the point of no return is not necessarily as soon as some people think it is.

[fa_jing]

So, bite vs. armlock - maybe

bite vs. armBREAK - forget it.

[Lao_Peng_You]

True defense against an armbar is 1) realizing how you're getting set up and 2) Being Proactive so that you don't get cought in a bad situation. For #1 experience will be your best tutor. Examine how you were put in that hold. Go to open sessions against experienced ground fighters, knowing that you'll get beat. There are tendencies that you'll pick up which will help you defend these attacks. For example: If he was in the mounted postion, he may have done something like a choke so that you put your hands up in defense, which leaves you exposed for an armbar. What you'll learn is that there are ways to defend and escape even these bad positions. I like to fight standing up (kung fu), so I like to practice escapes quite a bit.

Being proactive is a natural extention to #1. If you can recognize what someone's trying to do, obviously it's easier to defend. If a BJJ guy pulls guard on you, punch him quickly in the abdomen or face only to create space to escape (I emphasize escape, as your ability to beat an experienced grappler from this position is low, i.e. get back up to a position you prefer to fight from). Don't try to choke him from that position, or you will get armbarred. If you're practicing submission wrestling/BJJ and can't strike rules-wise, again practice body postioning and escaping. From a KF point of view, this is more natural, as basic KF concepts assist in this. Such as hip angle and position in relation to your opponent. In other words, letting the root dictate what the tip is doing.

just my .02

[Royal Dragon]

But, broken skin and a little blood? What of it? Now, if somebody removes a good chunk--well, I think that's fairly interesting from a conceptual standpoint. Wierd, but interesting.

Reply]
The wonderful thing about adrenilin, is you can be pretty hurt, and still keep going for a bit, till you realise what's happened and shock hits you. If I bit someones leg really hard, unless I actually sever tendons, and break the mechanical structure that allows movement itself, by the time the opponent fully realises whats happeneing, or the extent of the bite's dammage, he's busted your arm.

If you think about tendon eating, try imagine this, stuff a huge staek in your mouth, and in one intantanios chomp, sever it clean in half. You can't do it, It's going to take a bit of chewing, tearing wiggling around. In the meantime the opponent is going to break your arm in an attempt to use threat of injury or pain to stop you.

If your in a situation wher your pinned close to his neck, you can go vampire on him and chomp on the arterie. You might have more effect as the opponent will bleed to death if he tries to break something. As a conselation, he dies, and you just need to heal up your elbow.

I don't see a skilled fighter letting you get that close though. If he did, you'd probably already be done for. For me biteing is what you teach at the "Women's Self Defense" Classes, as most would be rapeists are not going to be well trained BJJ exponents. The most common rapeists is going to have mediocer fight skills at best, and most likely relies on strength for dominance. Not that is 100% here either, but the % of it being sucessful is higher in that situation, and it might be the only effective thing a woman remembers from her "Seminar" anyway.

[Lao_Peng_You]

Why do my fellow KF guys like to recommend biting and eye gauging as great defenses to ground fighters? In general, the kung fu I know, can be characterized by using great bridge moves, closing angles, root control and position, and devestating finishing moves. Why not offer this as a better solution to not getting taken to the ground and arm barred? Who would recommend standing toe to toe against a boxer to avoid being pummeled, or pinching his arms as a deterrent to being hooked?

BTW, I do disagree with the guys that say getting kicked in the nads has no effect, even if until after the adreneline rush. This may happen, but at what risk? I'd say if you got kicked or hit there hard enough, you're more than likely going to the hospital.

[Black Jack]

Biting is really only effective within wrestling distance, any soft protruding part of the anatomy can be bitten, stuff like the nose lips and ears, kinda off-putting but still valid and when attacked it could come natural.

[chen zhen]

I think that if the guy is only thinking about locking my arm, then a bite might turn him into doing a leg BREAK instead. and also, if the guy is trying to break your arm as his primary focus, then you'll try to do ANYTHING, else your ****ed, and then a bite might be a good solution, OR it might not.
so it can be turned around:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lao_Peng_You

BTW, I do disagree with the guys that say getting kicked in the nads has no effect, even if until after the adreneline rush. This may happen, but at what risk? I'd say if you got kicked or hit there hard enough, you're more than likely going to the hospital.

the risk doesn't matter to me during the fight. If I fight you and you kick me in the nads, but I still break your neck, who's worse off? If I go to the hospital after the fight, at least I lived through it to go to the hospital. I'm not saying it has no effect, I'm saying it's not always the fight ender that many people think it is. If it effects me after the fight is done, then the kick still did nothing to save you

[Oso]

...isn't it sweet when a newbie kf guy comes in and get's the mma/grappler guys all excited.:) ;)

I'll have to give EF at least a 5 out of 10 on the "Troll Meter" if for no other reason than getting MP to respond.:)

and, btw, I agree w/ MP. And RD is making some sense as well.;)

and, of course, seven is my all time hero!

[Lao_Peng_You]

7*, I've seen a guy in full fight mode get kicked in the nads, who subsequently dropped and quit fighting. He was taken away on a stretcher shortly thereafter. My point is, you *could* sustain a blow there, but there is no guarantee that you will be able to continue to fight. Getting bitten while on an adrenaline rush and getting kicked in the balls while under the same is not equivelent. One requires a little pain tolerance to sustain, the other luck. I've also seen a guy who had his arm broken twice, knee once, and other arm broken as well in a fight who continued to fight (meth head). It was truly grotesque. The point: anything is possible, but not always.

[Merryprankster]

I saw the after-effects of a fellow who landed nuts down on the end of a pole after a failed pole vault attempt. One testicle was grapefruit sized and had to be removed. he got a prosthesis.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I saw the after-effects of a fellow who landed nuts down on the end of a pole after a failed pole vault attempt. One testicle was grapefruit sized and had to be removed. he got a prosthesis. C'mon! We don't need that kinda talk around here! This is friendly fighting board!

[chen zhen]

you callin' me a newbie?!:mad:

but well, I am..:rolleyes:
compared to you ;)
and all the others here:o

I figured an escape out too: I soften my arm and turn it in the opposite direction, so he won't be able to break it. Then I push my hips up suddenly, so his legs will roll off my chest to right above where my head is (will only work if his leg pin is not that strong. Then I turn my body around while I keep holding his hand. In the way I imagine it, then his body will be face down, with his previous locking arm(s) pinned between his own legs, and then I just have to keep him from not turning around.
Does it sound obscure, or..:confused:

[Merryprankster]

Chen Zhen,

This is more or less what I told you to do. The problem you are going to run into is that if his knees are pinched in tight and his legs are tight to your body, you have to get the one on your head, off, once you have turned your arm/hand.

Walking around, as you figured out, is the "other" way to worry about escaping. Works well.

[Oso]

CZ, nope! I was referring to empty fist. You asked a good question. And got good responses from MP and others.

it's just funny when, after a certain equilibrium is reached between the tcma peeps and mma peeps, someone new wades in with the bite/pinch/gouge/nutshot argument.


all of those things can, as MP said, be PART of a defense. IMO, they can be the quick, possibly stunning, reaction to an attack. But, whatever window of opportunity they give you for a follow-up 'finishing' type move is small indeed and you need to capitalize upon it quickly or the adrenaline/endorphine rush is going to drown the pain out...if they felt it at all.

but I'm just sort of repeating what's already been said.

[Oso]

oh, and don't let post counts fool you...I'd say better than 50% of most poster's counts are completely OT.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I saw the after-effects of a fellow who landed nuts down on the end of a pole after a failed pole vault attempt. One testicle was grapefruit sized and had to be removed. he got a prosthesis.

That's just nasty...

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive done enough sparring w/o a cup to learn to cover the nuts.
hehe
:eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lao_Peng_You
7*, I've seen a guy in full fight mode get kicked in the nads, who subsequently dropped and quit fighting. He was taken away on a stretcher shortly thereafter. My point is, you *could* sustain a blow there, but there is no guarantee that you will be able to continue to fight. Getting bitten while on an adrenaline rush and getting kicked in the balls while under the same is not equivelent. One requires a little pain tolerance to sustain, the other luck. I've also seen a guy who had his arm broken twice, knee once, and other arm broken as well in a fight who continued to fight (meth head). It was truly grotesque. The point: anything is possible, but not always.

That's exactly the point I'm arguing - we're just using examples on different sides of the coin. it's not really relevant whether or not you attribute sustaining the pillshot to luck, only that it's not always effective - and that's basically what we are both saying.

[chen zhen]

MP: I see now that you've already said that. But thanks for commenting my suggestion:)

Oso: I misunderstood that.. but I don't talk about post counts, I talk about the number of years either of us have spend training. (I looked in your profile;) )

[chen zhen]

I also thought about this: you could (after turning your elbow and loosening his leg pin (in some way)) turn your body in a direction so that your body and legs is pointing in the same direction as his, and then roll around while holding on to his arm. Then you can again pin his arm between his legs, and /or lock his knee joint.
any good?:confused:

[chen zhen]

...:confused:

[Merryprankster]

I'll get back to you! Swamped!

[chen zhen]

:eek:
WTF

[Shaolin-Do]

get your arm sideways, so he is locking it to the side, not down. Then its not really in a lock.
Get your ass onto his stomach, and you should have his leg pinned up now.
Only prob, is that your back is to his face, and he has 1 free hand.

[ntc]

Tickle, tickle.... (just kidding... couldn't resist it)

[Dai Yoshida]

That's kind of like asking, "I got kicked in the groin. How do I get out of this?" Your counter must be initiated long before getting locked in.

Traditional counter would be the very basic "hook" common in all northern style and taichi.

Your opponent would have to reach over to initiate the attack. The southern systems calls this, "starting a bridge". If he manages to grab you, "he completed the bridge". If you grab his wrist and execute a hook, you completed the bridge but to your advantage.

Bagua style counter would utilize the reverse. You spin into "twisting dragon" placing your back against his chest allowing your free hand access to his groin followed by a shoulder throw.

Just because your opponent is grappling does not mean you have to play his game.

Bruce Lee was innovative in introducing "biting" as an option. However, CMA tradition always had simpler answers without resorting to such extremes.

['MegaPoint]

Fragbot's suggestions on pg.1 were the best and most concise. To "rotate" out of an armbar takes a "Curly Shuffle" type, breakdancin' footwork deal. Won't detail it here, but suffice it to say that you have to have some real groudwork training before attempting it. It is a very good reversal. Learned it from Ryron Gracie:)

[Black Jack]

Well......I bet Xesball would beg the guy to not break his skinny girl like arm in exchange for a brazilian hummer.

[Water Dragon]

Insport, you have to counter the lock before it's fully set. I suggest you do like me; drive yourself in thru his legs so that you get out of the lock and walk right into the triangle choke he slaps on you next :D

In the street, you shouldn't have this problem. As soon as you hit the ground you should have him held in your guard with your knife out and be half done slicing him in two. What? You didn;t have your knife ready? You haven't trained to get your folder out and open in about 3 seconds as soon as you hit the ground? Maybe you weren't really training for the street then :eek:

[chen zhen]

"tickle tickle":eek: :eek: eewww

OK, thanks for the answers. It was'nt the best I could come up with, but I just needed some feedback (is it called that:confused: :rolleyes: )

[Leimeng]

~ Once an armlock is properly placed, I can't consistantly get out of it. I reccomend that you don't get into the situation where you don't get in one the first place. Of course, I don't study grappling as a formal art form. Perhaps Gracie's videos could show you good escape.
~ If it is not properly placed, you can bend your elbow and go with the flow of energy and do some nice and nasty things to your opponent.
~ If you can come up with a way that will consistantly get you out of a properly placed armlock from multiple opponents, I am sure you could make a lot of money by making a video or DVD of it.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[Merryprankster]

If you can come up with a way that will consistantly get you out of a properly placed armlock from multiple opponents, I am sure you could make a lot of money by making a video or DVD of it.

I'm sure that if you can come up with a way to avoid grappling in a multiple opponent situation, you could make a lot of money by making a video or DVD.


Or, you could make something up, never really test it full speed on several determined people who want to drag you to the ground, decide with your training partners that "that should work," make a video or DVD, and get some cash.

Oh... wait. That's already happened. Repeatedly. Sucker born every minute, or something, right?

[Unstoppable]

Chen Zhen a Good Defence for armbar from Mount is to grap ur own arm and Bridge over so that You are on Top (BE CAREFUL OF BICEP CRUSH). It works good if you Use the Momentum as he sits Back.

now the Guy is underneath and Trying to Extend his Hips - - - - DON'T STAND UP OR LIFT YOUR BODY UP IT IS THE WORST THING U CAN DO ---- it will give him Space to Extend the Arm and Lock it Out -

Lean on Him with ALl your Weight and TRY to push It Down threw his Neck. DONT TRY TO ROLL HIM OTHER ON TO HIS BELLY (DONT LET HIM SLIP HIS HEAD OUT THE BACK) - if You do That he can Just Armbar you from a Face Down position (ALSO DOING THIS CAN ACTUALY MAKE IT COME ON QUICKER).

Push the Weight THrew his Neck/Shoulders and Jerk your arm out Bit by Bit. Little Jerky MOTIONS - not one Big pull. Once your elbow is past his Thisgh you are safe. Pass his guard

ALSO YOU CAN TRY TO THROW HIS LEG OFF FROM OVER YOR HEAD AS HE GOES OVER BUT THEN YO HAVE TO WATCH FOR THE TRIANGLE LIKE THE OTHER GUY SAID.

[chen zhen]

That was the word, the bridge.. if I just have remembered that, I could've explained it more easily. thanks unstoppable.. and try to fix your caps lock key..;)

[chen zhen]

OK, anything else? opinions?

bla bla



just trying to keep this going

[chen zhen]

Armlock pic:


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool:

[chen zhen]

Ok, more opinions?