Praying Mantis Exits the Cave

[ursa major]

Hello All,

A couple of years back I began combining my studies of a given form with a WHF book of same name. I use the WHF book as a reference usually correcting what I was originally taught to the WHF version. Recently I began working over Praying Mantis Exits the Cave but in this case I do not have, nor can I find, a WHF book on PM Exits Cave. As far as I know it is not listed amongst the 16 titles on PM written by WHF.

Am I mistaken ? Does anyone know if WHF wrote a book on PM Exits Cave ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[Skarbromantis]

Mistaken you are.

1. Sei Lo Bun Da (Four Directional Chase and Attack)
2. Daw Ghong, Sup Baht Sao (Avoiding Rigidity, 18 Ancestors)
3. Tsahp Tchoy (Stabbing Fist)
4. Law Hawn Gung (Internal Set)
5. Bahk Yuen Tchut Dhong (White Ape Exits the Cave)
6. Bahk Yuen Tao Tow (White Ape Steals the Peach)
7. Mui Fah Kuen (Plum Flower Fist)
8. Mui Fah Lawk (Descending Plum Flower)
9. Mui Fah Sao (Plum Flower Hand)
10. Yut Lo Zhaat Yew (1st Essential)
11. Yee Lo Zhaat Yew (2nd Essential)
12. Sahm Lo Zhaat Yew (3rd Essential)
13. Juey Law Hawn (Drunken Monk)
14. Bung Bo (Crushing Steps)
15. Ling Bung Bo (Crushing Steps 2-man Set)
16. Fei Ngahn Jeung (Flying Geese Palm)

[ursa major]

Hey skarb how are you doing ? I take it you haven't come across PM Exits Cave in a WHF book either eh ?

UM.

[Skarbromantis]

What up, Ursa, doing well thanks, nope never seen one, thats the set 1-16 that I know.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
What up, Ursa, doing well thanks, nope never seen one, thats the set 1-16 that I know.

Well my back is alot better these days. For awhile last winter I thought the jig-was-up.

I am familiar with three versions of 7 Star PM Exits Cave and of course each performs the form differently. I was looking for a WHF book to resolve these differences and hopefully end up with that one version to standardize on.

Regards,
UM.

[Brazil Mantis]

I do not know about late Mantis King from Hong Kong, Wong Hun Fun wrote a book concerning Tong Long Chu Dong (Praying Mantis Exit Cave), but one of your disciples did: Yuen Man Kai.

Hope it helps,

Samuel Mendonça

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Brazil Mantis
I do not know about late Mantis King from Hong Kong, Wong Hun Fun wrote a book concerning Tong Long Chu Dong (Praying Mantis Exit Cave), but one of your disciples did: Yuen Man Kai.

Hope it helps,

Samuel Mendonça

Hello Samuel thx very much for your comments.

The information you provided is all new to me. Do you have any idea where one should look to find a copy of the book Tong Long Chu Dong by Yuen Man Kai ?

regards,
UM.

[Brazil Mantis]

Hi UM,

I am sorry. I wrote a incorrect information. What I have about Praying Mantis Exit the Cave of GM Yuen Man Kai is not a book. It a magazine. Sorry again,

Samuel Mendonça

[LawClansman]

ursa major,

If you are interested in WHF exact Tong Long Chut Dong, it is written in the Chapp Choy (stabbing fist) book (as is most of his curriculum). It was a book at one time but is long out of print. Some of the other forms also not in the series mentioned by Skarbromantis may surface from time to time like Yin Ching Dao, Jee Ng straight sword, Fu Mei three sectional staff, and the two handed broadsword. Originall, these books were not numbered as the current series. They were just books with the names of the forms.
Yuen man Gai wrote an article on the form that contained pics of the entire set. But I never attempted to match it to the kuen po in the Chaap Choy book. You can email me for futher info on this.
http://www.7starmantis.com
sevenstarmantis@hotmail.com

[ursa major]

Originally posted by LawClansman
ursa major,

If you are interested in WHF exact Tong Long Chut Dong, it is written in the Chapp Choy (stabbing fist) book (as is most of his curriculum). It was a book at one time but is long out of print. Some of the other forms also not in the series mentioned by Skarbromantis may surface from time to time like Yin Ching Dao, Jee Ng straight sword, Fu Mei three sectional staff, and the two handed broadsword. Originall, these books were not numbered as the current series. They were just books with the names of the forms.
Yuen man Gai wrote an article on the form that contained pics of the entire set. But I never attempted to match it to the kuen po in the Chaap Choy book. You can email me for futher info on this.
http://www.7starmantis.com
sevenstarmantis@hotmail.com

LawClansman, this is excellent information. I had no idea what all that 'writing' was about in the 2nd half of WHF's Tsaab Choi book. And who knows maybe I'll get lucky and find a copy of the out of print book ?

Oh yeah, great website you have there.

Regards,
UM.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Bahk Yuen tchut dong
hmmmm.......
They call it Bai Hou tchut dong in shaolin-Do.......
Not sure why.
Anyone else know? Different areas maybe?

[BeiTangLang]

No flames intended SD,...but do not try to find rhyme or reason between mantis the system & Shaolin Do.

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont :)
Shaolin do is kung fu, but a pretty lack-luster system. confuses me often.....

[MantisifuFW]

Ursa Major,

The listing referred to by LawClansman it in the Kune Po contained in the Chop Choi edition of WHF books. In this listing he gives the standardization of terminology for the names of the movements of the sets as he taught them. It is definately NOT the complete list of sets he taught. As I understand them, they are the list of sets he planned to do books on at a time when he was not ill. The unique feature of these movement lists is that there are no poetic names for movements. They truly list the movements of the sets as he knew them. The notation method was not unknown at that time but it was a profound effort at preservation nonetheless.

On another note, the notation method has been further developed by Lam Wing Kit in his books. Though his sets are from the CCM interpretation and adaption of the work of LKY, they are very informative and illuminating to anyone who reads Chinese and understands Tanglang Quan.

Lai sifu told me that WHF lamented not being able to document all the sets as he learned them from LKY and the theories upon which they were based.

Hope this helps,

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
... Lai sifu told me that WHF lamented not being able to document all the sets as he learned them from LKY and the theories upon which they were based.
Hope this helps,
Steve Cottrell

MantisifuFW, thx for the info.

I find myself lamenting WHF's lament. Still we are fortunate to have what we do of his writings. I am slowly collecting his books I have 10 so far. I have a friend at work who believes she can translate my Chop Choi manual in it's entirety. If she can I'll post the results.

I am curious did Lai Sifu have any interesting stories about WHF that you can share ? Well, maybe that should be a subject for the Mantis Quarterly eh ?

Thx for your help,
UM.

[MantisifuFW]

Ursa Major,

The Chinese of WHF's books is not difficult even if sometimes unusual. It uses the Wen Yanwen constructions and vocabulary of classical Chinese and martial arts terminology which non Tanglang practitioners may not know. Your friend should have little problem translating so long as you can explain the martial terms. :)

I am about half way through with a book which will teach reading Chinese using the WHF books as reference. Hopefully it will be available this December.

As for stories, indeed Lai sifu told me some of WHF and of the days when he taught as have other martial artists who lived in HK during that time. I have begun articles using them for publication in the future in the major magazines. I will let you know as they come out.

Hey, maybe I could come out and visit with you guys sometime!

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
Ursa Major,

The Chinese of WHF's books is not difficult even if sometimes unusual. It uses the Wen Yanwen constructions and vocabulary of classical Chinese and martial arts terminology which non Tanglang practitioners may not know. Your friend should have little problem translating so long as you can explain the martial terms. :)

I am about half way through with a book which will teach reading Chinese using the WHF books as reference. Hopefully it will be available this December.

As for stories, indeed Lai sifu told me some of WHF and of the days when he taught as have other martial artists who lived in HK during that time. I have begun articles using them for publication in the future in the major magazines. I will let you know as they come out.

Hey, maybe I could come out and visit with you guys sometime!

Steve Cottrell

Right you are. The terminology already has her (my translator) in fits. She spent 5 minutes trying to explain an "insect that is on a journey from it's nest" I said you mean "Praying Mantis Exits Cave" ! Actually her first translation was 'pest' and not 'insect' hahaha I am shaking my head.

MantisifuFW I am looking forward to your book. Please put me on the list for a copy.

UM.

[Shaolin-Do]

"I am about half way through with a book which will teach reading Chinese using the WHF books as reference. Hopefully it will be available this December."

Translating into english?
If so, I would definately be interested as well :)

[MantisifuFW]

Yes, the book will be on translating Chinese into English. Actually the vocabulary, though specialized, is fairly consistant through most of the books. (There are a couple where there were revisions and the language varies a bit).

What I do is to teach how to read the Kune Po first, then I use one of the book's movement sections to teach how to read Chinese. The tone of the book is conversational, as if you were attending one of my Chinese language classes. We avoid any grammarian technical jargon and we have plenty of exercises to teach students to recognize the characters in different contexts. Right now the artist is making drawings of the figures of the form.

Anyway I have let some of my students try the book as it stands and several of them have learned to read the Kune Po and have started on the movement discriptions in only a couple of weeks of study.

Thanks for your interest and encouragement.

Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

In regards to Sifu Cottrell's efforts to make the WHF texts more easily read by non-Chinese literate practitioners:

I applaud his scholarly ambitions to promote our lineage and to make the information available to more fellow practitioners. I must caution readers however that the WHF texts were not written as instruction manuals but as reference materials for students who already learned the material from a genuinely certified instructor of this lineage. I have been told by my Sifu, Sigung, and Sibakgungs in HK that WHF purposely left out details, even movements from forms in some of his published books. WHF even wrote some information incorrectly so that he would know who genuinely studied with one of his students and who tried to learn from the books.

The books also served another purpose for WHF. In Chinese there is a saying: To cast a brick to lure the jade. The real treasures of the style would never be published for the general public. Instead, enough is published to entice the readers to seek out genuine instruction.

While the WHF texts offer some invaluable information, unless you have the guidance of a legitimate certified instructor of the WHF lineage, you will not know whether or not what you read in the books is correct or complete.

YM

[MantisifuFW]

YM,

Granted the books do have errors and it is also true that things such as the seven long or eight short are not spelled out in lists. However, overall, the books are accurate and give insight into the way WHF viewed and practiced Tanglang. For any Western instructor to be able to understand even the Kune Po is to take a great step towards preserving the art and teaching with both authority and accuracy. To be able to read the 99% of the information in the books that is accurate will be a great help to instructors, regardless of lineage. Where there are errors, to be able to question the rest, in today's communication rich society, is not difficult. The books are a gateway to insight, not a substitute for a teacher no where in them do they claim to be otherwise. Nor should people look at ANY text as a substitute for a teacher.

On the other hand, I have sat as a Chinese instructor, (I will not mention the lineage, many instructors use these books for reference), actually held up the books and said, "If only you could read these then you would understand so much more, but alas you cannot. But even if you could read Chinese, these books would not be understandable for you so you probablly should not even try to learn Chinese. Even I, with all my knowledge, have to ask others in order to fully understand them!"

I sat listening, knowing that the books were neither beyond understanding nor the keys to the secrets of Tanglang. They were, for this instructor, though, a means of expressing control over his students. I did not understand this either as they are quite loyal to this instructor because he is knowledgable and capable.

YM, I am working to preserve our lineage. I am also working to help raise the level of understanding of Tanglang, regardless of line, in the West. To this end I will help instructors learn to read marital Chinese, publish the Quarterly to share information, take instructors with me to China to meet and train with superb practitioners of the art, write articles and go train and teach wherever I am invited.

Hopefully the notes will draw instructors and students to come and train and learn more. But they cannot do that if we cannot read them.

Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

Sifu Cottrell,

You seem to be defending your initiative to translate the WHF texts. My post was not intended to say anything negative towards those efforts. In fact, I believe I said:
I applaud his scholarly ambitions to promote our lineage and to make the information available to more fellow practitioners.

It seems though that many practitioners hold the WHF texts as venerable bibles to our particular lineage. While they do contain much information and I read them constantly, I simply wanted to caution readers as to their exact nature.

I was not attacking your motives nor your intentions. If I was, the post would have been addressed to you directly. But as a Chinese American who is literate in Chinese and studies in the WHF lineage, I simply wanted to warn others not to mistake them as instruction manuals and to be sure to seek out genuine instructors.

YM

[MantisifuFW]

YM,

My appologies. I did not take your post as an attack at all. My intent was not to defend myself but to encourage those contemplating the difficult task of learning Chinese to make the effort in spite of the fact that they would not find all the answers in the books. I was attempting to say that even with the errors in text, pictures that show the wrong side, and occasional misstatements, the books are well worth the effort a busy Western teacher or aspiring Tanglang student would put into learning to read Chinese.

Hopefully, when I complete the reading texts, this task will not be as difficult.

Steve Cottrell

[Shaolin-Do]

I definately agree that what you are doing is a great thing for the MA world, because basically..
"give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and he will be fed for the rest of his life."

[ursa major]

My translator quit. She says it is too difficult for her to translate the chinese in WHF books to english.

UM.

[MantisifuFW]

I could send you part of my ROUGH draft, have a look and let me know about the format.

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
I could send you part of my ROUGH draft, have a look and let me know about the format.

Steve Cottrell

That would be very cool. Check your PM.