Aikido and Internal Arts

[StickyHands]

In a real fight scenario, who would prevail the most? An Aikido-ka or an internalist? Let say if they both have similar number years of training.... let say 15, hmmm, or some good number? I know I know styles and it's comparisons do not matter and rather blunt of me to ask it, and I know their potentials are inconceivable. AND I know, ultimately, Aikido is from Aiki-jujutsu, which is from Daito-ryu Jujutsu, and Jujutsu is from ancient chinese Chin Na, and kung fu also has Chin Na. But without verbal bashing and being too criticial, please post if you can make cogent, articulate argument. Thank you. Would you consider Aikido internal or external art?

[Former castleva]

Aikido is internal by definition,just less "chiisy" and in differing manner than Chinese arts imo.
I have nothing else to say except that to claim jujutsu descends from Chinese methods is somewhat questionable,if not highly.

[Kumkuat]

There was a skirmish between Wang Shu Jin and Chiba Kazuo. There are 2 versions of the story. Chiba Kazuo's version and the other version is by another person. So I will copy and paste the two versions.

Chiba's versions.

### Excerpt of interview with Chiba Kazuo, 8th-dan Aikido instructor ###

Q: With friends like that who needs
enemies! As we are talking about
challenges would you mind telling
me about your confrontation with Mr
Wang, the Tai Chi Master from China?

Chiba: Who told you about this . . . Mr Cottier perhaps?

Q: Perhaps I'd better not tell . . .

Chiba: (Laughter) O.K. then. I was in a big demonstration of Martial Arts in Tokyo in the early 1960's, and Tai Chi Chuan was being shown by Mr Wang. He was from Taiwan and he was very big indeed. He became quite famous later in Japan. Well, at the end of his display he had a number of Karateka line up in front of
him, and each of them punched him in the belly. It had no effect on him.

I was not impressed. I would have done something else (Sensei demonstrated a groin kick and face punch whilst saying this). So, anyway two of my private students were also studying Tai Chi under Mr Wang, and they were very impressed with him.

They invited me to come along and see him. Eventually I accepted and went to watch his class. At the dojo my students introduced us, and he politely asked me to show some Aikido. Even though his words were warm it was still a challenge! Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me. So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal) . . . his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. MasterWang snatched his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that.

### End excerpt ###



And the other version from Mike Sigman.




I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn't know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group.

First, some context. Wang Shu Chin, for those who don't know, was primarily a Pa Kua, Hsing I teacher, who also trained many years in I Ch'uan. He was a massive man, fat over heavy muscle, in his prime, about 5'6" and about 260 lb, I'd guess. He also did t'ai chi, the syncretic form created by Chen Pan Ling, which he did in a very different manner from Chen (this form is, these days, often called the Guo Shu form, the "national form" of Taiwan). Wang was the head of a neo-Taoist sect, which strove to harmonize the major religions of the world.

As always, there are debates about how strong he really was, I studied with him only two months when he was months away from death from melanoma. I witnessed him knock over a very muscular kyoshinkai champion with a side-step and belly blow, but that was a a controlled situation, not free-style. Still, really impressive power, despite his illness. For me, one of the most interesting measurements of his "power" was that when I travelled in Taiwan, every teacher who was talking big and trying to impress with his credentials claimed to have beaten Wang.

Anyway, Wang originally came over to Japan in the '60's, first to teach his son-in-law, who had married his adopted daughter. Among the first to study with him was Sato Kimbei. Sato, among koryu circles, was generally considered a joke. He collected scrolls and licenses. Otsubo sensei, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, told in a very public forum, of Sato apporoaching him, asking how long it would take to get a menkyo kaiden and when Otsubo was noncommittal, trying to bargain with him. Otsubo allowed him to train with him and w/in two months, Sato was nowhere to be found, but years later, he was claiming licensure in the school. Anyway, Sato hooked up with Wang for some years, and this did give him legitimate claim to being one of the "pioneers" of Japanese t'ai chi.

Wang used to ask a former student of Sato's to demonstrate what Sato taught, and he and his son-in-law would pick it apart, laughing and asking him to repeat cerain moves over and over. I also happened to be present at a workshop when the head of the Bejing wushu society, (forgot his name - the guy who put together the 48 movement syncretic t'ai chi form) and another practitioner, who has won the Yang t'ai chi competition several years running and Sato came up and told them that they weren't allowed to teach because they hadn't asked his permission, and they looked at him like you look at a deranged street person asking to borrow your briefcase, and walked away shaking their heads. Sato did nothing, and left with his wife shortly after. Sato is currently claimed as a senior infuence on the Genbukan and Tanemura - - -Oh well.

Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught t'ai chi. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry's direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, "here you'd have all these startched Japanese in their crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he'd start doing impossible slow t'ai chi and he'd turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he'd challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he'd let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he'd just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he'd become, shall we
say, active."

Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember) "the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, 'sure, do what you want' but they wouldn't let up so I said, "why don't you come and check him out for yourself." So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, 'come here boy.' Seriously, Wang's over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he's concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it's timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba's arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he's shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang's wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don't know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang's doing something to him with one hand and he's screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and
says, "You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire more?" Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, "you want to try." They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang again. . . . Far as I'm concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang's feet."


The story that Dobson tells is quite congruent with my own experience with Chiba. When he first returned to Japan in 1976, I think it was, I took his classes for several months. For whatever it is worth, I was the first person he threw in the first class he taught. It's relevant for this reasib. He comes in the room, substituting for Tada, and picks the biggest guy in the room - me. It's like he wants to make an initial impression on everyone. First throw is shihonage, and he very deliberately bridged my elbow over his shoulder and tries to snap it. No ambiguity at all. Not a mistake. He was deliberately trying to hurt me. I had previously been warned about him and was in the air the moment the throw started, yet the elbow did momentarity slip out of the socket and back in with an audible click. I hit the ground and came back up for the next move (jeez, I was a loyal puppy in those days) and Chiba got the same look on his face that you see when someone's slinking out of the porno shop with a back of goodies under his arm, and then he sees I'm not on the ground, or nursing the arm, and he starts in surprise, like he's been caught at something dirty, and then covers it up. Never tried to hurt me again, seemed to like me after that like I passed some sick test - lest some loyal students think I'm reading too much into this, I deal with psychopaths on a daily basis for a living, and I know that look. So I'm inclined to believe Dobson and
Draeger over Chiba's interview.

[StickyHands]

yikes! -_- If this story is true... ouch. But what about people who aren't grandmasters? I saw and read in many places that people who do practice Tai Chi, I dont know how many, but they uhhh spend abundance of time refining their forms and posture, but during a real fight scenario, they really can't fight all that well. And if one let say has to spend 15 years learning really how to fight, and beat guys of all the other styles, what about within that 15 years, they meet up some crazy lunatic on the street, armed or unarmed?

[chen zhen]

I think an aikido vs tai chi fight would look funny, since aikido is all fast and complicated footwork, and tai chi is very rooted. I think when the aikido guy starts the wrist lock and starts doing that characteristic turning and spinning footwork, the tai chi guy will have an opportunity to push or strike the aikidokai, when his back is turned against the opponent. i know for a fact that the tai chi man would have an advantage when the other man have his back turned against him, I have myself been knocked about trying to do fancy stuff :cool:

maybe it's a little off the topic, but I'd like to show my view

[Former castleva]

Root is at least as important in aikido I´d think.
Safe to say for me it is important.

[StickyHands]

I dont think turning and spinning would be a disadvantage instead of advantage. It's a tactic infact, a form of evasion to avoid push or stikes. Remember Aikido originates from avoiding sword and unarmed attacks. Otherwise Bagua practictioner wouldnt do similar methods of twisting and turning around an opponent before attacking. But good argument. I'd like to hear more from Internal practioners or cross trainers.

[chen zhen]

a pakua exponent would (from my limited knowledge of pakua) use a palm strike or leg sweep or whatever after evading, where an aikidokai has a hold on one of your limbs, which is a totally other ballgame. If he has a hold on you, and spins and turns, you can just pull his arm in a direction where he will be unbalanced, or as I mentioned before, push him, because aikidokai doesn't train in rootedness. a pakua exponent will keep moving around you all the time evading and moving in to strike your weak spot.
there is, of course, also the possibility that the aikidokai is very skilled in his method:D

I have a video of steven seagal doing aikido in his youth, and there you can see how they always twist and turn all the time, I'll try to find it, and post it later :)

[StickyHands]

Im not exactly an Aikido expert either, but Im sure they have their methods to counter that, i.e. if you grab their wrists, they have their ways to get it free and grab you. If they simply didnt have any strategy, even a common karateka would be able to force some blows while the Aikidoka was turning with one of their limbs attached to you. And Aikido does have rooting, otherwise how do you propose that the grandmasters of it just stand in one place being immobile while multiple oppoents attack them, each being dropped to the ground? Aikido wasn't meant to be inefficient Im sure.

[chen zhen]

Don't misunderstand me, Aikido can be HIGHLY effective, I just compare it to internal CMA methods.
I don't think they practise rooting to that high level as CMA does, and when you see the grandmaster does that excibition (as we usually see when aikido is demo'ed) where he drops the attackers on the ground one by one, it's more a matter of proper technique, leverage, feeling and proper footwork, than rooting. When you see aikido masters do their thing, you rarely see them stand still:)

[StickyHands]

I actually did see them stand still, otherwise it would have been blunt of me to say it. But I dont really understand how can internal arts be all, end all. Every combat system has its advantage and weakness, not only just the trainee. If the internal arts were so perfect, how come we barely hear of them existing? Especially, in a tournaments or some sort? How come more people aren't interested in it? No offense, but why do we see mostly middle-aged overweight people doing it most of the time? And doing it so slowly and ineffectively, that sometimes you gotta wonder are they getting any martial value out of it. Because for most, it's a regular exercise. With the potential that internal arts has, and as long as it's been known, which I bet ever since world war II to the western society, why aren't more young people involved with it? Or used as one of the main principles taught as self defense strategy as we have utilized with jujutus or karate? If it's that effective and indomitable, how come no one explains or explores its efficacy, take it to the mainstream?? I mean would I really be able to have only let say 2 years of Tai Chi training and beat someone who has 10 years of karate or kung fu or Aikido training? Thanks.

[chen zhen]

I'm not talking about any invincible style here, I'm talking principle vs principle. and the 2 years training vs 10 years will translate into any style. of course 2 years of tai chi can't beat 10 years training in any style. IMA takes a loong time, and patience to perfect, and you need a REAL GOOD teacher, else it would be a waste of time.
and the thing with mostly old folks and hippies training IMA.. that's just too bad. then it's good there's serious people like us around;)
you got some good points, there:)

[StickyHands]

but i suppose 2 years of tai chi against 2 years of aikido, tai chi would prevail, or 10 years of tai chi against 10 years of aikido? im trying to see where you draw the line... what about the other statements i mentioned? how come the internal arts are still in hibernation? meaning again, not in mainstream? im sure younger generation would love it if they knew what it can do.

[StickyHands]

I mean honestly, tell me, how many people are able to fight really well using the internal art, and have well understanding of fa jing and actually use it? Mostly it's the good ol' chinese masters that has absorbed most of the fundamentals. Unless one completely devotes his life to the internal art, it's really hard to get actual top notch fighting skill out of it other than health benefits. Where it's safe to say Aikido becomes much more prolific principle in short time, and rather versatile to any situation. Please dont mind me, but there has been internalists with years and years spent training, who in the end, didnt know how to fight at all. With a more basic style, a good external one let say, one can figure out, wait this is wrong, im not feeling any redemption here. However, with an internal, you're to do what your Sifu says, basically, even if you see your Sifu do it so perfectly, how do you know your learning it to that extent? And can actually fight with it, because before you fight, the whole prospective of internal is to learn a different way of moving right, so it would be too late before you realize whether you learned anything at all about fighting or not. I know internal arts are more than just fighting, but Im talking about fighting here as rather specifically.

[Laughing Cow]

According to sources within Chen TJQ there are 5 levels of skill within the system.

CZL himself has stated publicly that he has not reached the 4th level yet.
;)

Nuff said.

[StickyHands]

No, not "nuff said", I dont really care what this grandmaster said or that grandmaster said, I am trying to figure out how it will help me, in the end, it's my life to protect, not his royalty and lineage.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands
No, not "nuff said", I dont really care what this grandmaster said or that grandmaster said, I am trying to figure out how it will help me, in the end, it's my life to protect, not his royalty and lineage.

Did you check the Video on the other Thread that features CXW, I guess you will find your answers there.
;)

As for saving your butt, get a gun and become street-wise.

MA will give you maybe an advantage in a fight, there are NO guarantees regardless of which art you study.

MA like any skill will only be as good as the person using it and how well you keep it honed and trained.

TMA were designed to ENHANCE your existing skills, not give you skills you don't have.

Remember like with any venture in life what you will get out is in direct proportion to the effort you put into the venture, there are no short-cuts or magic solutions.

Seeya.

[StickyHands]

Which other thead, what's the link? I know what your saying, that's the most obvious thing redeemable. But I rather be a fool and ask stupid question now than 10 years from now and wonder, oh sh1t, i should have studied this art or that, or something is wrong with my teacher, even though I am doing my best. Reading things that Kumkuat said makes u wonder. Just a few years ago, I used to think Karate was the best, hands down.

[Laughing Cow]

Sticky hands.

This Thread:

Tai Chi Vid clips (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22150)

The Chen clip is very good.

As for wasting time, sooner or later you will have to make a decision which style and under whom to study.
You can collect as many opinions as you want but need to remember that most of those are tainted and might not be a good reflection of what is really going on.

Every time you sign up at a new Dojo it will be a gamble to a certain degree.
Just because style X and Sifu Y are good for 100 people does not mean that you will click with him.

The Sifu is a guide along your path to mastering the style/system, the effort & mastery comes from within you.

That's why I feel that which style or which Sifu is less important than your dedication to mastering what you do as the Student.

IMHO, a good MA will suceed not only in his MA style but in everthing he decides to pursue.

Too many people look at Masters like CZL or CXW and ask how can I be as good as them and compare their current skill to the masters current skill.
The question should be:
"If I study style X for 30yrs will I be as good as (fill in master) is/was after 30yrs of dedicated study."

I know the answer in regards to my own studies and regarding my Sifu's skill.
;)

Cheers.

P.S.: Too much thinking/comapring can cloud the mind too, sometimes it is better to go with the gut instinct.

[StickyHands]

LOL. good points made. thanks. i guess the only one i havent heard of so far in a long time and probably remember is the "gut instinct." To know what I like.... hmmm, my conscious is telling me to pretend as a Japanese samurai. haha.

[Becca]

Originally posted by StickyHands
im sure younger generation would love it if they knew what it can do.

No, they are too impatient. Why spend 5 years learning to use internal arts to kick some one's butt, when you can break bricks in 6 mos? The returns of IMA take longer to see, and we don't like to wait even five minutes to get a burger and fries.

A thought to ponder: Have you ever tried to hit a spinning target? your hand bounces off and little of the force is transfered to the target. It also can throw your balance off if you're not ready for it. Very easy to grab that arm once the oponant is off balance.;) Aikido/Aiki Jujutsu/whatever other variation of the style, IS internal to some degree. We are trained to take the hits we can't avoid and turn them into something useful, like leverage or use the momentum to strengthen our next attack.

I haven't studied Kung Fu nearly as long as Ninjitsu, but I do see alot of similarities in the way the two styles deal with punches/kicks/locks. The theories and training differ, but the outcome is the same.

[Becca]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Which other thead, what's the link? I know what your saying, that's the most obvious thing redeemable. But I rather be a fool and ask stupid question now than 10 years from now and wonder, oh sh1t, i should have studied this art or that, or something is wrong with my teacher, even though I am doing my best. Reading things that Kumkuat said makes u wonder. Just a few years ago, I used to think Karate was the best, hands down.

Who's to say it wasn't the best for you at that time? The only wasted effort is one you got nothing from.

[Vapour]

"the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, ...."

- Typical! Sad.

"According to sources within Chen TJQ there are 5 levels of skill within the system."

Yep, it's four guardian warrior side of lineage thingy. Aside from quality of taijiquan,

The level one is begginer student
The level two is intermediate student
The level three is advance student and begginer master/instructor
The level four is intermediate master
The level five is advance master

There supposed to be only 10 people in the world which are level five.

As of aikido not training in roots, you are wrong. They have completely different conceptual approach. They emphasise *floating* and *raising tantien*. If you raise taintien, you make your body uplight and strangely, I notice that you lower body sink into the ground at the same time. Aikido approach certainly emphasise mobility side of this but it's totally the same thing in high level. In Ki style of aikido, they have standard exercise called ki exercise where your and your partner test the stability of each aikido posture by applying pressure.

If you read taijiquan classic, it say you sink ki to tantien, then you *raise shen*. Since I practice both aikido and taijiquan, I think aikido is on shen side first. It's the same thing with different roads.

I would somewhat say that aikido is not as deep as CIMA because it's curriculum are designed to be taught to mass in class room format. This doesn't mean CIMA are better. In fact aikido produce far more competent fighter (especially because it is taught widely to Japanese police) than CIMA. How many Chinese internal martial arts practioners are there? Plus how many tai chi practioners know taijiquan is a martial art?

Btw, you don't show your back when performing aikido techinque. It's actually your side, not to mention that this is only training routine. If one apply techniqe for real, you often dont even turn but you utilise small intrenalised circle.

[Vapour]

Let me add another thing. Concept of being double weighted. Another major Chinese Internal/external martial art concept not at all emphasised by aikido.

In ki aikido, they have an exercise known as ki exercise where one hold one of aikido stadard postures and one's partner push to test the stability of posutre. Before I get pushed, I'm totally double weighted 50/50, but when my partner push from side, that push is redirected to either one of my leg so I become signle weighted. The floating and relaxation is the key in this exercise. More I float (raise tantien) and more I relax (expecially my empty leg but in practice one relax both legs), I can absorb more and more of the push.

I don't know what is the source of the claim that jujitu originated from Chinese Internal martial arts. I also read story claime by few Kung Fu practioners that aikido's internal aspect originate from Morihei's trip to Manchuria, compeletely ignorant of the fact that Morihei have mastered aikijujitu already at that time.

If aikido/jujitu originated from Chinese IMA, can anyone answer me why Japanese empty hand martial arts (karate originated from Kung Fu so it doesn't count) only practice single technique kata. Even in weapong arts which has Kung fu like kata, the form is relatively short and most style has only one form and the rest of training are concentrated on technique drilling (suburi).

Why two main concept of chinese martial arts, rooting and not being double weighted totally absent in aikido. If I talk about rooting or double weight I often get "Huh????" from aikido practioners. Aikido take completely opposite concept which in practice do the same thing.

[chen zhen]

Good to hear answers from Aikidokai and not aikido-ignorant people like me;)

[Former castleva]

"I don't know what is the source of the claim that jujitu originated from Chinese Internal martial arts. I also read story claime by few Kung Fu practioners that aikido's internal aspect originate from Morihei's trip to Manchuria, compeletely ignorant of the fact that Morihei have mastered aikijujitu already at that time."

It seems to be this China statement is done for warmth and fuzzles (from CMA´s of course) :)
This has been discussed to a great degree and probably at least many a aikido practitioner recognizes this possibility but while it´s entirely possible in theory,it still remains as a non-falsifiable hypothesis at best.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Its my experience that in China they don't talk about Japanese martial arts at all. That someone has made the claim that Ju Jitsu comes from China is not surprising. Lots of people say lots of unfounded things. To presume that this is a standard way of thinking is stretch, however. Anyone who knows their history will see the relation between the old Kumi-uchi armour grappling methods and old Aikijitsu. Jujitsu is simply the police version intended for restraint.

When Ueshiba was in the occupying army of northern China I don't think its fair to say he had "mastered" Akijitsu. He was certainly a practitioner and was known for his skill, yet he was still a relatively young man by master standards of the time.

I have touched lots of Aikidoka and I don't see them being able to open and close their joints very well. When you can quickly change from elongating through a joint to drawing a limb in longitudinally, then the large circles and foot work of Aikido can easily be taken away. Everytime I touch a new Aikidoka they try "dai" or leading and with Baguazhang I find it easy to get past their spiral and reverse it or to steal the lead away. After a while they become more cautious, but the first touch is always the same.

[Rockwood]

Although these arts are not the same, they have a number of similarities. I trained in Aikido for 5 years or so, followed by the same amount in various internal CMAs.

Aikido in practice uses lots of joint locks and throws. People need to realize that you don't just walk up to someone and put on a joint lock. That is utterly impossible if they resist with any effort.

In Aikido if your opponent has an opening you attack. If they don't block or avoid it you knock them down. If they do block it you apply a lock or throw. This is the same simple strategy used by almost all martial arts.

In practice Aikido always assumes that your opponent will counter your first assault, so the bulk of practice is done on throws and locks.

Repeat: You only throw someone after the attack has been countered.

Aikido uses two primary attacks.

Shomenuchi: This is the equivalent in IMA to Pi Chuan in Xingyi. You knock him out by advancing into his space and cutting his structure down like chopping wood with an axe. It is powered by the forward step, not the arm's strength. It's a more vertical strike.

Tsuki: This is the equivalent in IMA to Beng Chuan. You knock him out by advancing into his space and punching his torso, neck or face right on like a battering ram. Again, it is powered by the forward step, not the arm strength. It is more of a horizontal strike.

Although there are others, these are the primary attacks of Aikido, which by conincidence are exactly the same as Xing Yi's two most feared and effective attacks.

From my perspective, these are the core of Aikido, just as much as Xing Yi. All the joint locking and throwing only happens if the opponent withstands your attack.

These two attacks are less common in other JMA, thus the rise of the idea that O-Sensei may have learned them during his many years of travel in Northern China during WWI and WWII.

After one year of either Xing Yi or Aikido the practictioner should be the equal of any external martial artist trained the same amount of time. It shouldn't take a "Looooong time" to learn IMA or Aikido for fighting.

If however, the Aikidoists Shomenuchi and Tsuki are not understood and heavily trained, then of course he will get his ass kicked. Same goes for the Xing Yi man who doesn't train Pi Chuan & Beng Chuan obsessivly.

The only real difference I see between the two arts is that O-Sensei didn't leave behind a solo training method, he cut out the forms, but kept the applications. The Aikido people don't have a good way to train their attacks daily, so they get into faking it in the dojo just to get on to the throws and locks. If Aikidoists got back to mastering their core attacks, they would be dominating the UFC by now! Ok, maybe that's a bit much.

Once you have those two attacks built into your body, you have a basis to get into the fun stuff. Until then you are merely faking it.

-JessO

[shaolinboxer]

IMO, Aikido does qualify as an internal art because of the stress placed on yeilding, relaxtion, sensitivity, flutuation between mobility and immobility, and visulization of ki (chi).

Remember that aikido has two sides. We are all familiar with the throws, locks, atemi, etc. However, ukemi (lit. "receiving") is just as valuable if not more so. This is how aikidoka "invest in loss" in many cases. It is at the core of transmission without verbal instruction. In order to do the kind of ukemi that makes people say "oh man that looks so fake" requires the practitioner to acheive a true statue of "mushin" or "no-mind". This is very difficult and a worth while persuit, since it expresses total adaptablity and harmony.

Aikido also focuses on breath, rhythm, using the mind to control the ki through the body, and practice can (if the practitioner is motivated and aware) allow one to experience their own humanity and experiment with their ethics.

Aikido is about self, other, and the discovery of one's relationship to the world. That is not to say that martial efficacy is not a major concern. It is. However, it is only a small part of an art that can open many physical, psychological, and spiritual doors.

[Becca]

"Repeat: You only throw someone after the attack has been countered. "

They are also used to stop an ambush. I.e. if they come up behind you with a side head lock. You grab the locking arm to prevent strangulation, then flip them over your head. Actually, this is a good example of why you don't start with a lock/throw.

[Rockwood]

Becca- yeah, that's what I think too.

Perhaps it is better said as: you throw after the initial attack, whether they attack you or you attack them. Preferably the latter. Many pictures of O-sensei show him on the offensive, using Atemi to motivate the uki to counter, and using the counter as the "fuel" for his throw.

I just wish Aikidoists would realize that shomenuchi and tsuki are two precious jewels that they have. I recommend any Aikidoists to go look up some Xing Yi person and ask to feel Pi Chuan and Beng Chuan. After that their Aikido would never be the same.

Once you have those two moves the rest becomes so much more interesting.

-Jess O

[Becca]

I think it might be more accurate to say that locks and throws are only used to counter strikes from an oponant. My master taught that they are to be fight-enders. That if Jinjitsu Kai is executed properly, a skirmish would last no more than 3-5 exchanges.

And yes, rooting is important. It is used as a starting point. Since you probably won't know what form an attack will take, it makes no sence to commit to a defensive posture that may not be right. We train to assume all defensive postures from a basic rooted stance, similar to hoarse but with a definate grapling feel to it.

[StickyHands]

This is the problem right there, the two foremost attacks you mentioned, forget about that, most Aikido senseis stray away from teaching any "atemi" at all. Instead, some encourage you to take Karate. I found that obscure. Since the originally, O'Sensei did incorporate atemi found in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. But most didn't. And some of the KI Aikido schools, pretty much mostly, all they practice is harnessing the ki and health benefits, less on martial stuff. So what branch or style of Aikido are you guys in? Btw, I dont recall Aikido being part of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. They are "suppose to be" two different arts. (Jujutsu did derive from some Chinese Chin Na elements, other stuff were countering samurai swords). To deny this is blunder, as most Karate came from Kung Fu. Even some parts of Kung Fu came from India, so it cycles back and forth.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by StickyHands
This is the problem right there, the two foremost attacks you mentioned, forget about that, most Aikido senseis stray away from teaching any "atemi" at all. Instead, some encourage you to take Karate. I found that obscure. Since the originally, O'Sensei did incorporate atemi found in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. But most didn't. And some of the KI Aikido schools, pretty much mostly, all they practice is harnessing the ki and health benefits, less on martial stuff. So what branch or style of Aikido are you guys in? Btw, I dont recall Aikido being part of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. They are "suppose to be" two different arts. (Jujutsu did derive from some Chinese Chin Na elements, other stuff were countering samurai swords). To deny this is blunder, as most Karate came from Kung Fu. Even some parts of Kung Fu came from India, so it cycles back and forth.

I think either Morihei Ueshiba or Gozo Shioda was quoted as saying combat aikido is 80% atemi 20% aikido techniques or something like that. When I mentioned this in an aikido forum, a high grade corrected me stating that atemi at highlevel mean any move to break opponent's balance not just strike. Btw, I do ki aikido, the one said to produced the best and the worst of aikidoka.

No one said aikido being part of Ninjutu. Aikido is part of jujitu. Theory that Jujitu originated from Chinese Kung Fu is bit on speculation side to say the least. Karate did come from Kung Fu. There are historical record of number of Karate school founder travelling to China to learn Kung Fu style (such as Five Ancestor). And Karate used to be called, Tang hand instead of Empty hand. And Karate is not strictly speaking a Japanese martial arts. Japan conqured Okinawa few century ago. Karate was used to fight against Japanese invaders.

Not so in case of Jujitu. Aside from lack of any record shwoing founder of jujitu learning from any Kung Fu master, it's approach, training method are different. And as I stated, why standing posture and long form which is the cornerstone of Kung Fu absent in Jujitu. Why in aikido, the concept of *rooting* and *being-single-weight* absent and instead they use completely opposite concept of *floating*. To be short, if Jujitu originated from Kung Fu, why Jujitu is not at all like Kung Fu? Lastly, Altaic groups, i.e. Japanese, Korean, Manchurian, Mongolian, Turkish and so on has very long history of wrestling since they were horse riding tibes. This doesn't seems to be the case with Chinese which also belong to separate linguistic groups from Altaic.

[StickyHands]

If you notice, a lot of the locks in Jujutsu and in Chin Na (I didnt say basic kung fu fighting), have quite complimentary simliarities. Thats is not to say Jujutsu came completely from Chin Na, because again, it was constructed by Samurai warlords. As for Aikido not being Ninjutsu, I was referring to Becca. She practices Aikido, but then sometimes she also refers it to as Ninjutsu Kai.

Btw, what you mean by the best and the worst of Aikidoka?

[Becca]

Originally posted by StickyHands
As for Aikido not being Ninjutsu, I was referring to Becca. She practices Aikido, but then sometimes she also refers it to as Ninjutsu Kai.


No. You got the flow wrong. Ninjitsu Kai came form Aiki Jutitsu. Ninjitsu Kai has only been around for about 25 yrs. Bare with me for a few, and I will tell you what I know of it:

First off, I do not practice Aikido. I practice style based on it. Where the "Nitjitsu" came from, I have no earthly clue; my style does not resemble true Ninjitsu at all. How I came to this conclution is odd, though.

A little over a year ago, I had my second child, and faced the grueling task of getting back in shape afterward. I had used Ninjitsu Kai after my first, and discided to take that route again. I had not studied under a master for several years at this point, so I started looking for a traditional Ninjitsu school to train at. There are a few schools in Denver that teach it, but after visiting them, I realized: A) What I knew was NOT Ninjitsu, and B) I didn't like the aproach true Ninjitsu took.

I mentioned this to a friend at work. He suggested I visit the school he studied at, White Dragon Fist Style Kung Fu. I did and found that White Dragon Fist, or Pai Lum, was exactly what I was interested in, and since I was convinced my old master had been a fraud, I figured I had nothing to loose in starting a new style.

After a few months, I started noticing some similarities in what I was learning and what I already knew. I talked this over with my Sifu, and he suggested I go cyber to investigate Ninjitsu Kai. He didn't know any Japanese styles that were internal, but what I was discribing definantly sounded internal, and what I showed him was not Chinese. So I started haunting MMA forums, looking for something that mite help me either figure out what was up with Ninjitsu Kai or, better yet, help me find my old master.

A few weeks ago, I hit pay dirt in a Bullshido thread. While I did not find my master, I did find people describing my style. But they were calling in Aiki Jujitsu. After a long series of PMs, I found someone who had herd of him. (his name is Jim Zerbst) He was the typical disallusioned student. He didn't like the so called restricions of his teacher, thought he could do it better....Blah blah blah. A fraud, just as I'd suspected. But what he taught was definantly based on Aiki Jujitsu.

They guy I found this out from didn't remember who Jim said his teacher had been and had no idea where he was, though. Right now I'm looking into Aikido schools in my area to see just how close Ninjitsu Kai is to Aikido or Aiki Jujitsu. I don't know yet wether I'd start studying it or not. I like Pai Lum, and I don't know how my Sifu would feel about me studying them at the same time.

I don't supose any of this sounds familiar to any of you, does it? I studied under Jim Zerbst in Kialua, HI from 1994-1997. I think he was retired Air Force. That's about all know about him

Thanx for barring with me.

Becca

[StickyHands]

That clarifies it :) Because real ninjutsu/taijutsu I knew of is a lot different.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by StickyHands
If you notice, a lot of the locks in Jujutsu and in Chin Na (I didnt say basic kung fu fighting), have quite complimentary simliarities. Thats is not to say Jujutsu came completely from Chin Na, because again, it was constructed by Samurai warlords. As for Aikido not being Ninjutsu, I was referring to Becca. She practices Aikido, but then sometimes she also refers it to as Ninjutsu Kai.

Btw, what you mean by the best and the worst of Aikidoka?

I C, got ya. :) If you read ancient European manual of fighting, you would be amazed as to how similar the technique listed there in term of jujitu. When armour comes into equation, you have very little strike and lot of ChinNa. Similarity techniques, in my view is the least important aspect, while training method (such as stance and long Forms) or fundamental concept (rooting and single weight) are more important, in my opinion.

On the other hand, Japanese traditional medicine are refered in Japanese as Kanpo (Shino Method) and no doubt is Chinese origin. I'm quite sure that Japanese obtained knowledge of meridiean and such from Chinese (well Korean to be exact as they brought most of Chinese culture to Japan).

[ShaolinWood]

I would definitly put my money on a trained Taiji expert, but there are not so many out there. On a general level if you want to learn how to defend yourself in a fight in the street I would go for Aikido, because it is learned more quickly because of the hard on technique. Taijiquan on the other hand needs years of training before one starts "feeling" what you are trying to learn. Some people never "feel" it and just does forms, and that way, even though they look great, can't fight.

A true master who has been trained the traditional way (Like in Chen village - they train elbows and knees, full speed fighting) has a big advantage of not using any strength to pull of a through, break or push but has the reflex to back that vast level of skill.

Aikido(a very effective system) still uses physical technique and makes use of an apponants strength. A true Taiji master would not use strength to do an attack.

No one will really know what the outcome will be because a true master or sensei will never comprimise his apponents honour, even though he might win in a challenge.

[Vapour]

By the way, how many people cross train in taijiquan and jujitu related arts (judo, aikido and other jujitu ryu)?

[Former castleva]

"I would definitly put my money on a trained Taiji expert, but there are not so many out there. On a general level if you want to learn how to defend yourself in a fight in the street I would go for Aikido, because it is learned more quickly because of the hard on technique. "
I would not recommend either for that purpose.
If you ask most aikidoka,they would probably be honest enough to tell you that it takes time to learn.

"Aikido(a very effective system) still uses physical technique and makes use of an apponants strength. A true Taiji master would not use strength to do an attack."
I do not know what this means,but when it comes to any technique,it will always be more or less physical.
Yes,aikido does not use strength.

"No one will really know what the outcome will be because a true master or sensei will never comprimise his apponents honour, even though he might win in a challenge."
A true alpha male (moron) would meet the challenge to gain power.
;)

[StickyHands]

Then what you suppose takes shorter time to learn, easy and simple, and efficient fighting for street or tournaments, and of course self defense?

[ShaolinWood]

Yes, some styles like Aikido and karate are optimised for western training (Though there are still schools that train in the traditional way) so you will train to be able to fight quite soon and even do well. butt the difference in TAiji,it takes longer to learn, but the level of skill has so much more posibilities, you will never stop learning, this makes the difference.

Think of it as learning to fix cars, and learning to invent cars, the latter takes longer to learn, but your limitless- only to your own determination.

[Vapour]

Shaolinwood, are you making your statement based on "experience". Have you ever put decent training in aikido and taijiquan? If not, you are talking nonesence.

[Former castleva]

"Yes, some styles like Aikido and karate are optimised for western training (Though there are still schools that train in the traditional way) so you will train to be able to fight quite soon and even do well. butt the difference in TAiji,it takes longer to learn, but the level of skill has so much more posibilities, you will never stop learning, this makes the difference."
What do you mean by western training?
I´m sensing some bias here,which is understandable but I find it very hard to see why aikido would not have a lifetime of training to offer (I have trained for a very short time)
Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof (as far as I have understood you)

[ShaolinWood]

(Yes do speak from experience)
What I'm trying to say is: That if you refer to training a style sothat you don't need strength at all to execute a technique, it would take years of training (like stated by Taiji training).

What I mean is, what ever style you choose, if you don't put those extra many years in training, finding the principals of using spiral energy and correct rooting, you won't reach the highest levels. And I know that you can reach it in most styles, but not if you just want to reach a level of winning a fight.

I don't mean to be dissrespectful to any other styles, one of my closest friends are a Aikido Sensei and we talk about this alot, TAiji and Aikido are actually very similar in technique.

If you will learn proper technique and skill depends on your master and your ability to learn and train.
Mostly depends on your determination and patience to take the long route. There is no shortcuts to proper Taiji.

[ShaolinWood]

Missing the point
It's about finding your center of gravity, when you stand on one leg while doing something else you learn to get used to where your weight should be. And in the same time stretching very important muscles. When you don't stretch your muscles in your body you might injure yourself doing movements like ground sparrow dragon or snake creeps down.

Taiji is still a martial art you must remember that, in traditional training like Chen village Style, you actually train a fighting style.

Don't get stuck on "what's internal and what's external". The problem with Chinese MA is people are too busy trying to make someone else's style look bad that they miss the essense of the age old saying: "If you want more tea, first empty your cup."

Learn from other people, then deside if you want to add to your knowledge or not, but if you don't want to see what someone else wants to teach you, how can he teach you?

(I am happy with my Taiji style, I know my liniage is proper and I am very happy with the results.)

Just getting something off my chest, let's all get along and benefit
Enjoy

[ShaolinWood]

Missing the point
It's about finding your center of gravity, when you stand on one leg while doing something else you learn to get used to where your weight should be. And in the same time stretching very important muscles. When you don't stretch your muscles in your body you might injure yourself doing movements like ground sparrow dragon or snake creeps down.

Taiji is still a martial art you must remember that, in traditional training like Chen village Style, you actually train a fighting style.

Don't get stuck on "what's internal and what's external". The problem with Chinese MA is people are too busy trying to make someone else's style look bad that they miss the essense of the age old saying: "If you want more tea, first empty your cup."

Learn from other people, then deside if you want to add to your knowledge or not, but if you don't want to see what someone else wants to teach you, how can he teach you?

(I am happy with my Taiji style, I know my liniage is proper and I am very happy with the results.)

Just getting something off my chest, let's all get along and benefit
Enjoy

[Vapour]

Just put thing in perspective, here is a link about a judo kata. Itutu no kata (form of five).

http://www.judoinfo.com/kataitsu.htm

[shaolinboxer]

The interesting thing about this stupid story about Chiba which I have heard a thousand times is that Chiba is just a kid and Wang is one of the best internalists ever. I'm amazed Chiba didn't get killed. I mean think about it, a kid going up against a seasoned internalist...ofcourse Chiba is goin to walk away with his nuts between his legs.

Chiba has a cluster of loyal disciples here in Manhattan. I get the impression they are very "samurai" (aka living in a semi-masochistic fantasy world). Many of their students quit due to permament or severe injury.

Terry Dobson (shoulder) and Donn Draeger (elbow) were both permanently injured by the old uchi deshi. Like it was some weird re-enactment of WWII. Japan wins! Horay!

[BAI HE]

This story?

I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn't know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group.

First, some context. WANG SHUJIN, for those who don't know, was primarily a Pa Kua, Hsing I teacher, who also trained many years in YIQUAN. He was a massive man, fat over heavy muscle, in his prime, about 5'6" and about 260 lb, I'd guess. He also did TAIJIQUAN, the syncretic form created by Chen Pan Ling, which he did in a very different manner from Chen (this form is, these days, often called the Guo Shu form, the "national form" of Taiwan). Wang was the head of a neo-TAOIST sect, which strove to harmonize the major religions of the world.

As always, there are debates about how strong he really was, I studied with him only two months when he was months away from death from melanoma. I witnessed him knock over a very muscular kyoshinkai champion with a side-step and belly blow, but that was a a controlled situation, not free-style. Still, really impressive power, despite his illness. For me, one of the most interesting measurements of his "power" was that when I travelled in Taiwan, every teacher who was talking big and trying to impress with his credentials claimed to have beaten Wang.

Anyway, Wang originally came over to Japan in the '60's, first to teach his son-in-law, who had married his adopted daughter. Among the first to study with him was Sato Kimbei. Sato, among koryu circles, was generally considered a joke. He collected scrolls and licenses. Otsubo sensei, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, told in a very public forum, of Sato apporoaching him, asking how long it would take to get a menkyo kaiden and when Otsubo was noncommittal, trying to bargain with him. Otsubo allowed him to train with him and w/in two months, Sato was nowhere to be found, but years later, he was claiming licensure in the school. Anyway, Sato hooked up with Wang for some years, and this did give him legitimate claim to being one of the "pioneers" of Japanese TAIJIQUAN.

Wang used to ask a former student of Sato's to demonstrate what Sato
taught, and he and his son-in-law would pick it apart, laughing and asking him to repeat cerain moves over and over. I also happened to be present at a workshop when the head of the Bejing wushu society, (forgot his name - the guy who put together the 48 movement syncretic TAIJIQUAN form) and another practitioner, who has won the Yang TAIJIQUAN competition several years running and Sato came up and told them that they weren't allowed to teach because they hadn't asked his permission, and they looked at him like you look at a deranged street person asking to borrow your briefcase, and walked away shaking their heads. Sato did nothing, and left with his wife shortly after. Sato is currently claimed as a senior infuence on the Genbukan and Tanemura - - -Oh well.

Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught TAIJIQUAN. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry's direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, "here you'd have all these startched Japanese in their crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he'd start doing impossible slow TAIJIQUAN and he'd turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he'd challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he'd let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he'd just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he'd become, shall we say, active."

Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember) "the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, 'sure, do what you want' but they wouldn't let up so I said, "why don't you come and check him out for yourself." So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, 'come here boy.' Seriously, Wang's over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he's concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it's timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba's arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he's shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang's wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don't know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang's doing something to him with one hand and he's screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and says, "You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire more?" Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, "you want to try." They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang again. . . . Far as I'm concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang's feet."

The story that Dobson tells is quite congruent with my own experience with Chiba. When he first returned to Japan in 1976, I think it was, I took his classes for several months. For whatever it is worth, I was the first person he threw in the first class he taught. It's relevant for this reasib. He comes in the room, substituting for Tada, and picks the biggest guy in the room - me. It's like he wants to make an initial impression on everyone. First throw is shihonage, and he very deliberately bridged my elbow over his shoulder and tries to snap it. No ambiguity at all. Not a mistake. He was deliberately trying to hurt me. I had previously been warned about him and was in the air the moment the throw started, yet the elbow did momentarity slip out of the socket and back in with an audible click. I hit the ground and came back up for the next move (jeez, I was a loyal puppy in those days) and Chiba got the same look on his face that you see when someone's slinking out of the porno shop with a back of goodies under his arm, and then he sees I'm not on the ground, or nursing the arm, and he starts in surprise, like he's been caught at something dirty, and then covers it up. Never tried to hurt me again, seemed to like me after that like I passed some sick test - lest some loyal students think I'm reading too much into this, I deal with psychopaths on a daily basis for a living, and I know that look. So I'm inclined to believe Dobson and Draeger over Chiba's interview.

[No_Know]

"I haven't studied Kung Fu nearly as long as Ninjitsu, but I do see alot of similarities in the way the two styles deal with punches/kicks/locks. The theories and training differ, but the outcome is the same." Becca indicated this.

Aikido seems to require force to work against the opponent-ish. Taijiquan beats Aikido, ideally.

Taijiquan has shift weight after stand~. Shifting weight principle can win many a fight. Aikido learns kneeling and to roll first-ish.

As an aside, Taijitsu (ninjitsu fighiting-moving) does rolls first in at least some instances perhaps.

Ninja body movement (Nbm) works from avoiding Japanese Warrior caste sword (katana (long curved blade)) strikes/cuts.

There was a famous person describded with if you met~ with him it was like wrestling an empty jacket.

Aikido is perhaps near useless when opponent does basically not use force.

Punches have angles from closer ranges than Samurai cuts. Less room to work and shorter reaction space.

Aikido used against a lack of force perhaps is Juijitsu-ish.

[shaolinboxer]

That story. Ofcourse, the common version is the "Chiba snaps wrist then receives push" version.

Really, I don't know Chiba Sensei, nor any of his current students. Also, I never got to meet Dobson Sensei, but I have read his work and many writings about him (the story told by Ellis Amdur in "Dueling with O'Senei" is particularly touching and insightful).

My point was only that 1) the tales of injury do not surprise me and 2) old Wang SHOULD have whipped Chiba since he had many years more experience.

That version of the story is very interesting.

[Vapour]

Is this my imagination or do we tend to find the biggest ego maniac in so called Internal Martial Arts?

In internal arts, you have a "master", then somewhere in the middle you have "sensei" (teaher), then when I do judo, I get "instructor" or "coach" who, after the lesson, go out and drink with us, not to mention that we all call each other with first name.

[ShaolinWood]

Of all the Japanese styles(Now this is purely personal preferance and doesn't mean any disrespect to any style/person) my favaroute is propably Aikido, for me it uses very similar technique (Involving locks and chin na) though with some elements I disagree (purely because I'm taught differently propably)

But If you like what you do(your style) do research, use forums like these to find out what other people in other styles do and believe, then test the principals in your own, We can always benefit from advice!

[Becca]

"Aikido is perhaps near useless when opponent does basically not use force."

I agree. And without force, it is useless. I am allowed to use it in sparring at my kwoon, but as I study an internal art, I get more use from the footwork and evasions than I do from throw and locks.

[Vapour]

As of aikido, I do feel that some people are making assesement of the arts without much of experience. Especially about the comment that aikido use force to apply technique. This comment is rather ignorant of the function of aikido kata training.

In aikido kata training, tori will make pre-aranged attack which uke counter it by using an aikido technique. Few comments about use of force in aikido is based on the perception that it is uke who is learning technique, IMO.

The main concept stressed in aikido kata practice is uke "following" tori's technique. This is because any aikido technique can be countered if one *follow*. Uke by cooperating with tori is not just facilitating execution of technique. He is at the same time, learning to counter/defeat such technique. When you are being tori, you learn "technique". When you are uke, you are learning aikido. Observation that aikido use force is based on the idea that it is uke who is doing aikido. In fact, reverse is true.

Plus aikido's stress use of power from hara (abdominal) or tanden. Do you think taijiquan is not soft because it use fajing? Aikido technique can be applied aggressively if one adhere to aikdo principle. Typical example is Shomenuchi Irimi Ikkyo.

[ShaolinWood]

Yes, I Totally agree that Aikido aims to be "soft" like Taiji also.
My master once told me:"It doesn't matter what road you take, being internal, external, you start hard, end soft, or start soft end hard."

Meaning that you need both Yin and Yang (Being all daoist now) to fully master a system. This doesn't mean that if you do taiji you will end up doing WWF slams and bear hugs, this is the principal of Fajing, coiling energy starting of with soft spring action, and turning hard for the split second of impact then returning to yin again.

[Vapour]

Let me my thought on the concept of "floating" in aikido.

A modern taijiquan master, Zheng Man Qing, when he was about middle age, stressed dozen "check list" which was given to him by Yang Cheng Fu. In later year, he stressed only three. "Swallow the heavens chi", "tap the earth's strength" and "prolong life through softness". I was recently told that at the latter part of his life, he particular stressed "head suspended from ni-wan point" because if your head is suspended from ni-wann point (shen being raised, may be), your weight naturally fall into earth so the second check list become redundant. This is also the exact point which was stressed in aikido. That is to raise tanden and relax. I also stated that if you float, principle of being single weighted can manifest itself when being attacked.

I do beleive that Morihei left what he considered it to be the core of martial principle(s) which practioners of aikido can discover at various level of aikido practice. While back, I attacked a 6th dan with Shomenuchi and he countered it by Irimi Ikkyo. When I received his technique, I felt this strange rush of energy from his ikkyo that I just couldn't think I could resist his ikkyo. With lower dan grade, I could feel them using some degree of brute force so even though I can't stop their technique, I feel that I can resist it somehow. More suprising thing is that not all 6th dan give me this rush. It kinda confirmed me something I read it while back that the highest grade is, in fact, 3rd dan (or 5th dan? I can't remember)

Enough ranting, I think I need to eat my break fast. :)

[Becca]

Yes, Vapor, but if they go at it with the intensity of limp spinach, you must use force generated by YOUR actions to accomplish the throw. And that's run-of-the-mill grappling. Aikido uses these concepts, as do most arts, but what makes Aikdo special is the underlying principals, such as chin na.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Becca
Yes, Vapor, but if they go at it with the intensity of limp spinach, you must use force generated by YOUR actions to accomplish the throw. And that's run-of-the-mill grappling. Aikido uses these concepts, as do most arts, but what makes Aikdo special is the underlying principals, such as chin na.

Mmmmm, left over curry from last nite was bit heavy for breakfast. Now I want to get back to bed. :)

If someone use intesity of limp spinach, it is easier for beginner to do lock because there are not much resistance to such technique. If someone is soft because s/he is following your aikido technique, more you force technique, more likely that he will counter you with lock or throw. Ideal Aikido lock or throw is done by applying minimum foce to your uke's body alignement/balance so better you are at aikido, less force one use.

Btw, underlying technique of aikido maybe ChinNa while underlying prinicple of aikido is not ChinNa (as in techniques) in my view. Morihei Ueshiba got all aikido techniques from Daito ryu Aikijujitu. However, Morihei progressively eliminated more dangerous and vicious ChinNa locks from aikido. Some say that Morihei "watered down" aikijujitu to keep it in accordance with his philosophy. The other say that it is more to do with change in approach to martial arts. Ki aikido, the softest style of aikido don't even have atemi (strike) in their kata performance. Also there are clear shift in emphasis from structure of technique to flow of technique between soft and hard style of aikido. Similar difference can be seen between Chen and Yang style, I think. While Chen contain fajing expression in the form, Yang Chen Fu's form doesn't, though i think it is implied in the form. And haven't we heard of some Chen stylist saying Yang is watered down taijiquan and less martial.

[Vapour]

Well, what I have been repeatedly told in my dojo are

1) Float
2) Relax
3) Follow
4) Tanden

Is this tai chi or what?

[ShaolinWood]

Those elements are surtainly very important in taiji.
ps. I checked out the link you posted, very interesting.
Have a good one!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Although my experience with Aikido is limited to +/- a years training in the mid 70's and contests/play with other players during the following years.. my current feeling is that Aikido is more "technical" than Tai Chi, requiring more complexity in execution and more specific methods of attack to be effective.. One of the more attractive features of Tai Chi, for me, is its "general" usefulness.. regardless of how long it takes to become functional at Tai Chi's internal nuances, the applications blend and flow so well into each other that the ease of execution and effectiveness of dealing with secondary responses make it my art of choice.. Although i borrow from Aikido and many other arts i like this analogy.. "though i may walk many paths, the WAY i walk is Tai Chi.."

Be well..

[No_Know]

"As of aikido, I do feel that some people are making assesement of the arts without much of experience. Especially about the comment that aikido use force to apply technique. This comment is rather ignorant of the function of aikido kata training."-Vapour

Vapour you put a link to judo information. Five principles. The second principle I took to back my concept that a lesser efficiency of Aikido is related to force of attack.

"2. Demonstrates the principle of using the energy of the opponent's attack to defeat them, or victory through yielding."

Less energy; less able to defeat.

I indicated Force. I might have generalized. I think that a better term or at least a factor to be considered is Commitment. Perhaps with little to no copmmitment on attack or defense Aikido's efficiency deminishes. This is perhaps more a correct, my think.

The controling aspects of Aikido seize/control--in Chinese that might be referred to as chin-na, might be accompanied with movemet. When attacked, the movement is momentum--momentum of defender's yielding And the attacker's force of atttack.

"Uke-Nage Relationship
Uke (literally "one who receives", the one who takes the fall) and nage (the thrower) have a very special relationship. Unlike many martial artists who train against an opponent, the aikidoka trains with a partner. There is no competition in aikido, no pitting of one person against another. Instead, each partner is half of a whole, each having equal responsibility for the learning experience."--Aikido West handbook (http://aikido-west.org/handbook/uke_nage.html)

"In aikido kata training, tori will make pre-aranged attack which uke counter it by using an aikido technique. Few comments about use of force in aikido is based on the perception that it is uke who is learning technique, IMO."--Vapour

Vapour, it seems to be my impression that what you said where I've quoted you seems opposite-ish to What's in the Aikido group's handbook.

Few comments about use of force in aikido...If I bring up a point that wasn't mentioned/talked about before doesn't make my mention wrong.

A billion people Can be wrong. Merely a concept, perhaps some might say.

[Becca]

Vapor: I see where your comming from now.:)

[Former castleva]

I recommend everyone with less experience of aikido to do some "detective work". :)
www.aikidojournal.com
www.aikidofaq.com

[No_Know]

Vapour. it is my concept that having a technique Can help in understanding what is involved with that technique. There are no Aikido techniques-ish. All aikido teis reactionary. an attack is required. If you attack with it it is jujitsu joint manipulation and you are a scoundral-ish (seems most likely).

Not much experience? If you even think you know mine, please tell me.

Basically, not too offended if at all. Merely~ interested in what you think you know.

I No_Know

"Plus aikido's stress use of power from hara (abdominal) or tanden. Do you think taijiquan is not soft because it use fajing? Aikido technique can be applied aggressively if one adhere to aikdo principle. Typical example is Shomenuchi Irimi Ikkyo."

I might not have been speaking that Aikido cannot be ferocious. It can be agressive as you seemingly like to be able to point out.

It seems as though Aikido takes advantage~. The agressor has the commitment of extension. The Aikido is intercepting then, unbroken joint manipulation to off balance. Continual joint manipulation to steer the once agressor to an incapacitating or subduing end of the continual lead of keeping the once agressor's balance.

Follow seems to be an attempt to keep from hurting worse or not as bad.

...whatever whatever very good.

[Former castleva]

"Not much experience? If you even think you know mine, please tell me.

Basically, not too offended if at all. Merely~ interested in what you think you know."

In case this was directed towards me which I´m not sure of,I´d like to make sure that I was not trying to assume what anyone´s experience is but rather pointing out a few excellent resources to learn about aikido.

[No_Know]

"Well, what I have been repeatedly told in my dojo are

1) Float
2) Relax
3) Follow
4) Tanden

Is this tai chi or what?"--Vapour

Perhaps Vapour, like there is hard in soft and soft in hard, things are shared.

I tgink that these things might be able to be found in T'ai Chi Ch'uan there might be more that makes up T'ai'Chi Ch'uan than those four things that might make-up Most of Aikido.

Also What makes T'ai Chi Ch'uan Inernal that Aikido does not have-ish While Aikido being Spiritual yet not Internal is the Mind to move. Aikido might have this at some point or throughout; however, it does not seem as trademark or requirement in Aikido as it is in The three Classically/traditionally/Stereotypically Chinese Internal Arts~ of Hsing-I, Pa Kua and T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

[Vapour]

Well, there shouldn't be attack or defence in taijiquan as well. I just wanted to point out that any legit system seems to have common fundamental principle. That is why I put up the link to Judo kata.

I practice the softest style of aikido called ki style and they tend to emphaise flow of technique rather than structure. In general I see the approach (flow v.s. structure v.s. relaxation) as equivelant to Yang though aikido's approach is obviously from grappling arts rather than boxing art like taiji*quan*.

Another thing about ki aikido is its emphais on ki visualisation training know as ki exercise. In ki exercise, one hold one of fundamental posture in aikido in static or dynamic movement. Then one's partner test the stability of posture. For example, in one posture, I hold both hand forward palm together. Then the parter push my hands toward me. At this point, I'm told to imagine that my hand is streching into the wall of dojo and beyond. Funny thing is that when I project my will/intent, my posture become more stable. Oh, and in every movement, we imagine that ki eminating from tanden especially out of tip of finger as if your arms are nozzle. Pretty much the same as "ki follow yi".

[shaolinboxer]

With whom do you study ki aikido? I study with Shizuo Imaizumi, who is the cheif instructor here:

www.shinbudokai.org

Are you a member of the ki no kenkyukai?

[Vapour]

No, I'm in U.K. My instructor's sensei was a student of Sensei William, a first dan grade stucent of Abe who broght aikido to Britain. William sensei switiched to Ki aikido later.

[shaolinboxer]

Abbe, Kenshiro

(1915-1 December 1985). 8th dan judo. Began judo training at age 14. Received 2nd dan from DAI NIHON BUTOKUKAI at age 15. Promoted to 4th dan in 1933 and then 5th dan in 1934 by the Butokukai, said to be the youngest holder of the latter rank at this time. Graduated in 1937 from Butokukai Judo College in Kyoto. Won overall trophy in All-Japan East-West competition and captured 5th dan championship in TENRANJIAI judo tournament also in 1937. Promoted to 6th dan in 1938 and 7th dan in 1945. Chief Instructor of Kyoto Police and Doshisha University beginning in 1949. Became editor of Japanese Judo Magazine in 1951. Moved to England in 1955 and established the Abbe Judo School in 1956. Founded British Judo Council in 1958 and became Founder and President of the International Butokukai in 1960. Abbe is credited as the first to teach aikido in the U. K. He also brought over Tadashi ABE from France to conduct a series of aikido seminars. He remained in U. K. until 1964 when he returned to Tokyo for the Olympics


Interesting. Cool.

[shaolinboxer]

Who did your sensei study ki aikido with?

[Vapour]

I don't give out name of someone I personally know. Sorry.

[shaolinboxer]

Interesting. Fair enough.

[Samurai Jack]

I expect this thread is very close to dead at this point, but I feel compelled to write in defense of Chiba Sensei and question some of the slanderous remarks Kumkuat has made about him.

I have not been training in Aikido for very long at all, but I asked my Sensei who is a personal student of Chiba Sensei about some of the points Kumkuat made. I must also point out that while I have only been training in Aiikido for approximatly five months, I met him several years ago and had the pleasure of breaking bread with him and his spouse on several occasions in the mid nineties.

1) I work in mental health as well. It seems almost silly to even address this accusation, but for the record, Chiba Sensei is not mentally ill. He does not suffer from psychotic delusions, nor is he psycopathic. He also does not exibit the typical sympotoms of a personality disorder such as narcissisim or sadisim.

2) While I am not interested in disputing the perception that Kumkuat had (he obviously harbors a great resentment against Chiba Sensei), I am curious about the details of the incident, because it would shed some light on Sensei's actions. Kumkuat claims thet Sensei "bridged (his) elbow" using "Shiho nage".

I just approached my Sensei and asked him what this could mean. Sensei showed several applications for Shiho Nage, and I musty say, I have no idea how someone's elbow could be threatened with this maneuver. Shiho Nage brings uke's wrist behind his shoulder. The elbow is flexed. stress is placed on uke's shoulder and wrist. Because the elbow is flexed in an upright position, not open, there is virtually no way it could be "popped out of the socket".

Let's assume though that this impossible situation actually did occur. Giving Kumkuat the benifit of the doubt, I expect that as an advanced student, Kumkuat would be able to take ukemi for Chiba Sensei. Apparently Sensei had the same expectation. The fact that Kumkuat's elbow was left intact is proof to me that Chiba was not interested in hurting him.

3) According to Kumkuat, he is writing the story about Chiba's confrontation with Wang Shu jin, as something he heard from someone else who heard from someone who said... ah how many times has THIS happened on KFO? It makes a good story, but hearsay dosen't hold up in court because it's not a fair way to judge a person's character. Period.

I'd rather look at how people chose to tell this story. In Chiba's version nobody wins, and he expresses respect for Wang. In Kumkuat's version, Chiba sounds like a punk and Wang is the taoist hero! Hey, I've met the man, and this does not describe him at all...

In closing, I'd like to say that it's a very good thing that Kumkuat did not continue to train with Chiba Sensei. Of course for a student to feel any loyalty for a teacher, he or she must feel comfortable and safe with ones teacher. The student also must have a sense of value for what they had learned. It is a shame that for whatever reason, that relationship was denied Sensei and Kumkuat. I have been fortunate to have had a very different experience.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I'd rather look at how people chose to tell this story. In Chiba's version nobody wins, and he expresses respect for Wang. In Kumkuat's version, Chiba sounds like a punk and Wang is the taoist hero!

I picked up on this distinction as well. Of course, one is directly quoted by a nuetral third party and the other is definantly hearsay...:rolleyes:

[Kumkuat]

actually that wasn't my story. I just quoted someone's story. I have no idea who it was.

[Rockwood]

Samurai,

If you hang around the Aikido world for a while you will hear that Chiba Sensei has a reputation for practicing a very "hard" style. Some accuse him of purposefully hurting his students. I've met someone who was damaged by him first hand. Personally I like a more hardcore practice. I don't study Aikido anymore, but there's nothing wrong with doing it in a hardcore way. If your experience is different, more power to you. I'm just letting you know that it's not the Wang Versus Chiba incident that is the root of this reputation for brutality, it's been around a long time.

In my experience Shihonage is an elbow break. If you do it with a jolt instead of a smooth flowing motion there are arm breaks throughout the technique. At the end, instead of gently bending the hand over the shoulder, you can put massive force on the elbow by taking the arm laterally away from the body as you bring it down. This is a very dangerous thing to do to someone's arm. Not that I'm saying anyone did this to anybody, I'm just saying that the technique is an elbow break if you want it to be.

The Chiba Versus Wang story has been going around for at least ten years if not longer, Kumkuat was just repeating it for our enjoyment. It's from a time when all concerned were much younger men, so the people we know today are certainly a lot mellower. Back then things were very different. Wang hurt a lot of feelings by proclaiming that Japanese arts were inferior so it seems possible that challengers would be on the offensive.

Anyways, I personally like what I've seen from Chiba Sensei's school. I hope you keep up the training and offer us insights as you get them.

-Jess O

[Vapour]

Yes, shihonage could be applied in such way that it take out elbow. I practice ki aikido but once my instructor demonstrated shihonage in sort of Yoshinkan way. Every moment he turn, he locked into my joint, wrist, elbow and shoulder. You sacrifice flow but it certain is a valid approach. In higher level, I think you can do it both way.