Pien Sun WCK

[KPM]

Greetings!

I recently made a journey to Boston in order to study the PSWCK system with Jim Roselando. I really like this method! My previous background is in Yip Man WCK (Augustine Fong lineage). Since many more people have seen YMWCK than PSWCK, let me use it as a reference point to try and describe some of my observations. Of course realize that I have only seen the 1st level of PSWCK and am by no means an expert. But at least I can provide a starting point. If questions arise that I cannot answer, Jim frequents this forum and will likely chime in. :-)

1. YGKYM
The basic stance is much narrower than what I had learned previously. The knees are kept as close to a fist distance apart as possible. Others have stated that YGKYM is the "mother stance" of WCK, but PSWCK is the only method I have seen that takes this seriously. For PS, every stance is simply a variation of YGKYM! The feet are NEVER parallel. Even when shifting into a "side body" position, the toes point inward to maintain a measure of "kim sut" and inward energy at the knees. From the perspective of PSWCK, if your feet to do point inward to some extent regardless of how you are standing, then you do not have a good stance. This really does provide a platform for movement that is both very stable and very mobile at the same time. I find that with the narrower stance, rooting and sinking have become easier. I have also found that being "low" does not necessarily equate to being "stable."

2. Body mechanics:
There is far, far more emphasis on using the waist or "kwa/kua" to generate power than what I learned before. To me, this gives my WCK more of a "Tai Chi" or "Hsing I" flavor than previously. In PSWCK, one will often "shift" or "pivot" without allowing the feet to move!....only the waist is used. This allows one to include a lot of "whipping" power in the movements.

Pivoting is on the center of the foot....the K1 point. The weight distribution is kept 50/50, though because of the narrower stance this can be rather subtle. The waist motion initiates the pivot, not the feet or knees.

The fist is not clenched! The center of the fist is kept hollow, and only enough tension is applied to the muscles of the forearm to keep the wrist from bending upon impact. At first I was a bit skeptical, but have found that as long as your alignment is right, this is not a problem. I can hit just as hard, maybe even harder, with this "unclenched" fist and it promotes better relaxation in the movements.

3. Chi Sau
Very cool! Jim said this is described as "two snakes looking for an opening." :-) It is much more flowing and coiling than the luk sau chi sao I have seen most people do in YMWCK. But it is easy to see how the luk sao platform likely evolved from this version. This is nearly impossible to describe. Let me just say that the 1st level PSWCK chi sau is done closer to the wrist with more coiling action as compared to YMWCK chi sau which is done further up on the forearms with more of an up and down circular action.

4. Organization
This is the most interesting part about PSWCK! This method represents Leung Jan's own distillation or refinement of the WCK method that he taught in Ku Lo village after he retired and left Foshan. It is said that he did not change the concepts and techniques, only the teaching method. He drew upon his extensive experience as a fighter and teacher to reorganize his knowledge of WCK into "san sik" or "separate points." These are individual drills. He no longer taught the standard forms....siu lim tao, chum kiu, biu gee, or mook yan jong. He distilled the primary concepts and techniques into a series of short drills or "points." Nearly every point is designed to be practiced solo stationary, solo with various footwork, in a partner drill, and on the dummy. Even the sequence of which "sik" or "point" is taught was thoroughly thought out. I think Leung Jan was a martial genius! I know I couldn't have come up with something so logical and efficient! Each sik progressively develops certain aspects of the system and each progressively builds upon the others.

5. Strategy
PCWCK prefers to "flank" or move to what TWC calls the "blind side" rather than going up the middle whenever possible. "Pien Sun" means "side body" and refers to this preference, as well as the preference for the side stance (shifted position) rather than the front stance (one leg forward).

Overall, I am very impressed with what I have learned of PSWCK. I am looking forward to future visits to Boston to learn more!

Keith

[t_niehoff]

Thanks for the review, Keith!

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Kieth!


It was great to have you come up to Beantown! I had a lot of fun working out with you!

On a quick note. Although we do like to attack from the angles I would also mention that if the middle is open we drive up there to! Its all about what is given to us but since most attack directly down the center we usually end up cutting in from the angle.

Also, the alignment of the joints is the key to the Mai Jee Hong Choi! No need to tense a fist on impact as tension does hurt the penetration and follow up of methods. The closer the fingers are gripped into the palm, the more tension will be found in the forarm!

I have to run but will pop back in shortly!

Good speaking with you.


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Sounds a lot like SNWCK...

(I would be careful about torking the waist without moving the feet, however, since while it does prevent power "leakage", its easy to damage the knees through repetitive stress, so I would recommend letting them turn (*not* enough to be parallel, but enough to keep your knees healthy))

Not for Keith directly, since he's a health professional, but for those painting along with the thread...

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


Sounds a lot like SNWCK...


It is!

(I would be careful about torking the waist without moving the feet, however, since while it does prevent power "leakage", its easy to damage the knees through repetitive stress, so I would recommend letting them turn (*not* enough to be parallel, but enough to keep your knees healthy))

Good advice for the people who are going to try this after reading it! There is a certain point when your feet will follow the waist movement. Do not stress the knees! Its small snaps of the hips and then all follows.

Not for Keith directly, since he's a health professional, but for those painting along with the thread...

Yes. You need to be shown how to do it and if you just mess around with it then you could be doing things slightly off which can cause problems.


Regards,

[dzu]

Rene and Jim,

Do you initiate your shift with one part of the body followed by the rest or is everything synchronized?
Is the shift performed the same regardless of application (lop sao vs bong sao vs tan sao)?
What is your weight distribution when you shift?

When I worked out with Rene and his Montreal Posse :) it seemed that the waist was more involved compared to how I shift, which turns everything as one unit.

I've been comparing and contrasting my YKSWC and my YMWC and the body structures are slightly different. The YKSWC horse has the knees closer and the toes in more. This more compact horse seems to generate more torgue for lop sao and other motions that attempt to pull/draw the opponent off balance. Conversely, I tend find it easier to shift and wedge in using my YMWC horse. I believe there are fundamental reasons for these differences and that everything else is based off of these differences. Would appreciate any thoughts you have on this.

Dzu

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Dzu,


Originally posted by dzu
I've been comparing and contrasting my YKSWC and my YMWC and the body structures are slightly different. The YKSWC horse has the knees closer and the toes in more. This more compact horse seems to generate more torgue for lop sao and other motions that attempt to pull/draw the opponent off balance. Conversely, I tend find it easier to shift and wedge in using my YMWC horse. I believe there are fundamental reasons for these differences and that everything else is based off of these differences. Would appreciate any thoughts you have on this.
[/B]

There are those of us who also trace back to the Yip Man lineage who have our knees close and our toes pointed in. I'm sure Rene can verify this. We don't, however, use the more compact stance to generate more torque. I believe, for our particular school, that the compactness is an important trait for our Wing Chun.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[burnsypoo]

Hi Guys,


Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hey Rene,

Sounds a lot like SNWCK...

It is!
There is a certain point when your feet will follow the waist movement. Do not stress the knees! Its small snaps of the hips and then all follows.

Regards,

Sounds a lot like YMWCK!
... cough ...
Congrats to us all!
;)

[dzu]

Hi Zhuge Liang,

I'm aware of other YM branches which use a more compact horse but I haven't seen many YM branches shift the same way that Rene and some others in his lineage shift. Since most WC systems are built from the ground up, I'm hoping to explore the differences between the more and less compact horses. Feel free to contribute as well!

Dzu

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Dzu,



Rene and Jim,

Do you initiate your shift with one part of the body followed by the rest or is everything synchronized?

It depends on what stage of training you are at but it all starts at the waist. Certainly in the beginning the body is more locked in and all turns in one type of motion. As you advance your body mechanics you then change a bit. At high speed one would not notice a difference unless they had a good eye! Start from the waist and all follows. You can also think of it like this! When you first learn SLT you basically need to align your body and remain quiet to feel everything and to build a strong structure. After years of SLT you would not do it the same way you did it week one would you? Certainly not! The focus would be more towards path of power for the skills and this also works for the turning etc..

Is the shift performed the same regardless of application (lop sao vs bong sao vs tan sao)?

It depends on the situation. If you were late, if you were out of position, if you were in perfect position etc.. In the perfect world it would not change much but your Ging might.

What is your weight distribution when you shift?

When I worked out with Rene and his Montreal Posse it seemed that the waist was more involved compared to how I shift, which turns everything as one unit.

I have seen RR and crew and they are very similar to us.

I've been comparing and contrasting my YKSWC and my YMWC and the body structures are slightly different. The YKSWC horse has the knees closer and the toes in more. This more compact horse seems to generate more torgue for lop sao and other motions that attempt to pull/draw the opponent off balance. Conversely, I tend find it easier to shift and wedge in using my YMWC horse. I believe there are fundamental reasons for these differences and that everything else is based off of these differences. Would appreciate any thoughts you have on this.

I am not sure which YMWC horse or method of turnign you are using? Please explain which one and we can discuss more.


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey Dzu,

"Do you initiate your shift with one part of the body followed by the rest or is everything synchronized? "

Everything can't ever be synchronized, (different from harmonized) as it would be like turning in zero-g (nothing to push off of). Even taking the ground into consideration, articulated systems move by one componant acting off another, and even if the relay is negligible, it still exists. So, one part of the body, regardless of method, has to initiate. Then, you can either make the rest of the body follow (rigid or whiplike) or just parts thereof.

If we're talking strict SNWCK (can't speak for Jim or PS), the way I learned the hips use the brace of the legs on the ground for torque.

"Is the shift performed the same regardless of application (lop sao vs bong sao vs tan sao)?"

Yes and no, no its not the same regardless of application, but I don't consider Lop vs. Bong different applications, just different hands. In application, regardless of hands, I can initiate myself, or I can use the opponent's force to initiate, which might be a little different mechanically.

"What is your weight distribution when you shift?"

It goes from 50-50 to 100-0; if there's no practical (application) purpose for the 100-0, it stays 50-50, and hence no reason to shift.

"When I worked out with Rene and his Montreal Posse"

Just because we wear cowboy hats and kerchief masks doesn't make us a posse, Dzu! 8P

"it seemed that the waist was more involved compared to how I shift, which turns everything as one unit."

The turn is different than what you do, but we're all turning more less as one unit, just using different antagonistic forces against each other to power the turn.

"I've been comparing and contrasting my YKSWC and my YMWC and the body structures are slightly different. The YKSWC horse has the knees closer and the toes in more. This more compact horse seems to generate more torgue for lop sao and other motions that attempt to pull/draw the opponent off balance."

Yup, it constrains power and forces it up from the legs into the hands. You can do the same pushing, but it is not as intuitive and usually takes more time to get comfortable with.

"Conversely, I tend find it easier to shift and wedge in using my YMWC horse."

Robert's horse is definately easier to wedge with. That's not my experience with all YMWCK horses. Some are much closer to the SNWCK I learned, some different to both.

" I believe there are fundamental reasons for these differences and that everything else is based off of these differences. Would appreciate any thoughts you have on this."

Did you see my reply on another (grappling) thread about bridging vs. shrimping? Wedging is basically bridging into the opponent and moving them around you. Side body is basically shrimping away from an opponent and moving around them. While most grapplers seem to understand the interplay of the two, and in fact understand the Swing (Dong) concept and the amazing results they can achieve going from on to the other, WCK people seem to think they have to pick one and then just adhere to it.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey RR,


Did you see my reply on another (grappling) thread about bridging vs. shrimping?

I did not see it but I do not read many posts anymore.

Wedging is basically bridging into the opponent and moving them around you. Side body is basically shrimping away from an opponent and moving around them.

Not sure I totally agree with this as for us it can be both and both are all part of the big picture. I dont believe they should be labelled as such.

WCK people seem to think they have to pick one and then just adhere to it.

This is where they lose out IMO.


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey Jim,

I think, vertical or horizontal, one removes pressure from you and the other removes you from pressure, so either can't be both, but with skill both can be harmonized and performed with the obviousness you'd see in the beginning. I do agree about the big picture, of course 8)

[Jim Roselando]

Richster!


Great post!


Agreed!


See ya,

[KPM]

As pointed out earlier in this thread, PSWCK and SNWCK seem to be very similar. This makes sense, because Leung Jan and Fok Bo Chuen (who taught Yuen Kay Shan) had the same teacher....Wong Wah Bo. So IMHO, the commonalities in movement and biomechanics shared between PSWCK and SNWCK are likely our most representative example of what Wing Chun Kuen was like during the Red Boat era....at least as taught by Wong Wah Bo. Some of these common features that I am aware of include the narrower YGKYM, shifting on the K1 point, and a more "fluid" feel to the techniques. Jim, Rene.....what other common characteristics do you see that may give us an idea of what Red Boat era WCK might have been like?

Keith

[dzu]

Jim,

Generally speaking, my knees are more or less under my shoulders, weight sinking through the K1 points, Yin Tang/Ren 17/Dan Tien aligned, intention forward. I believe you have met my Sifu, Robert Chu, so that should give you a reference point as to the physical structure of the horse.

I realize that application is in part dependent upon the force sensed at the bridges, but I'm trying to compare the differences in power generation and application between the more compact horse (knees 1 fist away) vs a slightly 'bigger' horse (shoulders over knees). I believe that each type has their pros and cons and that this information is what sets up the strategies, tactics, and methodology for various lineage.

Dzu

[dzu]

Hi Rene,

I agree with you that i have the option of moving myself to the outside or moving my opponent so that his outside is exposed.

Personally, I prefer to wedge in and maintain bik ging. Against taller people, I find it harder to shift around them because they become the center of the circle and can just cleave the center as I shift. It's easier for me to try and intercept and turn them by wedging in.

When I do shift around them, it's usually to extend them so that I can lead them or guide their force in another direction.

Which do you find yourself doing more?
When you wedge in, do you use as much waist or is that more for the pulling/extending?
How do the mechanics change when you initiate the shift yourself vs when the opponent forces the issue?

As I mentioned in my response to Jim, I think that the degree of compactness of the horse helps to define the methods espoused by a particular lineage. This is not restricted to just YM vs YKS/SMN/PS since some YM branches have more compact horses than others. I don't necessarily think one is better than the other, but each has their strengths and weaknesses.

Dzu

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Dzu,


Generally speaking, my knees are more or less under my shoulders, weight sinking through the K1 points, Yin Tang/Ren 17/Dan Tien aligned, intention forward.

My knees are more or less under the inside of my shoulders and above the edge of my hips but of course things can change during situations. K1 is the same point we use and posture when errect aligns similar but with the sow hung property. (ankles,hips,shoulders)

I believe you have met my Sifu, Robert Chu, so that should give you a reference point as to the physical structure of the horse.

Ah! You are one of Robert's boys! I didn't realize that! Yes. I do have a better idea of what you are doing now!

I realize that application is in part dependent upon the force sensed at the bridges, but I'm trying to compare the differences in power generation and application between the more compact horse (knees 1 fist away) vs a slightly 'bigger' horse (shoulders over knees). I believe that each type has their pros and cons and that this information is what sets up the strategies, tactics, and methodology for various lineage.

Ok. Remember, although the 1 fist distance is the basic rule it may not be exactly like that in a fight but the advantage is that you have you balls protected without having to think about it and at close range that is ultra important. Most south fist maitain a very small structure (as you look back).


Now, for me the advantages are this. I find the more compact horse to be more natural and lively. You feel like a snake coiled ready to strike. It is also much closer related to the way people stand naturally. So, if something was to happen only a minor adjustment and you are there. In the larger horse alignment I feel in the beginning it is easier to root as it has a larger base to stabilize but do not feel any other advantages and with hard work, and good knowledge, the smaller can also root but it takes more time. Anything you can do with a bigger horse can be done with the more compact horse. Once aligned its about the study of the path of power to generate what needs to be done.

Let me ask you this? How do you root when on one leg?

If you understand Jong then you will see that it is not the width of the stance but the properties and work that goes into it (especially the breath). Thats my belief and from my brief studies of Yi Chuan I can see it is also the belief of others. I have seen masters that can root without any effort or width and generate great Ging.


See ya,

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hey Dzu,


Ok. Remember, although the 1 fist distance is the basic rule it may not be exactly like that in a fight but the advantage is that you have you balls protected without having to think about it and at close range that is ultra important. Most south fist maitain a very small structure (as you look back).

See ya,

Hi Jim,

Having the knees a fist distance away can protect your balls against a front kick that scoops from below but i don't see how it can stop a kick thrusting straight in at an angle parallel to the ground.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Hi Jim,

Having the knees a fist distance away can protect your balls against a front kick that scoops from below but i don't see how it can stop a kick thrusting straight in at an angle parallel to the ground.


100% correct. There is no YJKYM that can protect you against the frontal heel thrust!


Regards,

[dzu]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your information. I agree with you on the point that a slightly wider horse in the beginning is easier to learn how to root. Eventually, however, the root becomes more than just physical mechanics. I root the same on one leg vs two, front vs back, together or apart, etc. The pathways and principles are the same, but the body and intention have to be trained to work together.

That said, however, I feel that a slightly wider horse opens up the pelvis and allows for better drive forward than the more compact horse. That doesn't mean that the compact horse is worse, it just means that for this particular application, it is not as well suited. Some things are just easier from a pure mechanical perspective.

An advantage I see with a more compact horse is that it is easier to generate more torque when shifting in the beginning stages of one's development. Again, this is just my observation of the pure mechanics. It's also easier to transfer weight upon shifting from 0/100 to 100/0 because the legs are closer together. This just leads to certain applications being easier for the more compact horse.

At some point however, the applications converge for the two horses and it becomes possible to wedge and shift with either one. My observation is that some lineages seem to emphasize one version over the other in the beginning stages of training, and that this emphasis is partially defined by/defines the horse that is to be used from a physical perspective.

Dzu

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Dzu!


Thanks for your information.

Thats what sharing is all about! I appreciate your conversation!

That said, however, I feel that a slightly wider horse opens up the pelvis and allows for better drive forward than the more compact horse. That doesn't mean that the compact horse is worse, it just means that for this particular application, it is not as well suited. Some things are just easier from a pure mechanical perspective.

Well, I found from playing with both that "for me" the more compact horse alows from a shaper shocking Ging which unbalances the opponent and then once he is wabbling then the Bik/Biu power comes into play. For me the tighter posture allows me to feel like a sprinter ready to press and drive. "For me" the larger posture was more sluggish and I found the power to be more gross (or long) and "I" believe that the eventualy goal should be refinement not matter what platform you begin with. Gradually refine and shrink so your power and methods become more subtle and less nitceable. That doesn't mean I am correct or for someone else it wasn't the opposite but that was just "my" feelings from the practice of both.

An advantage I see with a more compact horse is that it is easier to generate more torque when shifting in the beginning stages of one's development. Again, this is just my observation of the pure mechanics. It's also easier to transfer weight upon shifting from 0/100 to 100/0 because the legs are closer together. This just leads to certain applications being easier for the more compact horse.

I agree. I should have read this before replying to the above! Uggg! hehehe So, we basically agree on all accounts so far. Wow! In the cyber world this could be a miracle! LOL People should learn from our fine example and even if we dont agree its all good!

At some point however, the applications converge for the two horses and it becomes possible to wedge and shift with either one. My observation is that some lineages seem to emphasize one version over the other in the beginning stages of training, and that this emphasis is partially defined by/defines the horse that is to be used from a physical perspective.

Its all about path of power! Ging! Some use one platform to develop it and some use another. Small/Sharp/Simple


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey Dzu,

To me its much like that game of putting your hands around a baseball bat. You each keep taking turns but at the end, one hand will get the top. I find methods are like that. They all have their strong and weak points, and its a complex pattern when charted.

I do things differently. Sometimes I wedge, sometimes I change a lot, sometimes I turn into, sometimes around. I try different things and am interested in what exists in the transitions and interplays.

When I wedge I tend to bow more and use the opponent for impetus. When I'm not wedging, I'll probably use the waist more, but for both pulling/extending and pushing/filling.

For the mechanics, if there exists no pressure between me and my opponent, I have to create something to drive off of. A classic way of doing this is torquing the hips. If there is pressue, I can bow between the pressure and the ground and drive off that, not needing hip torque (only the structural component between them and the ground).

I agree with you about each having their strengths and weeknesses. My ankle is still torn up from being heel-hooked, for example, so the 1-fist horse is painful for me at this point. No worries, I can use something else.

In general, I prefer to be natural and just stand, just move, only falling into a classic structure when my opponent or conditions force me to, so just like I wouldn't walk around with my hand moving through Tan Sao, I would stand around engaging YJKYM visibly.

[FIRE HAWK]

Are you ever going to write a book on your Pien San Wing Chun I would buy it ?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Fire Hawk,



I have thought about it but to be honest I really dont think I will. My family is ultra private with their info./preservation of Leung Jan's system/teaching and they believe in sharing with very close friends and family only. By doing this they keep a nice tight family. Hey, if you take all my articles, and posts I write on the web boards, then you will have a good ammount of info..

Yet, I really would not mind sharing more info. in a nice little package for all to have but I am not the person who should do this and if I do I will hurt my chances of future training with the Fung family. :eek:


Thanks for the desire to learn more about our art!


Regards,

[William E]

Jim

Thanks for taking the time to share with us. Your posts are long but are worth the read. How's the weather in Beantown?

William E.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello William,


Thanks for taking the time to share with us.

No problemo. Its all about sharing!

Your posts are long but are worth the read.

I can babble! hehehe I do my best to explain as best I can so sometimes they are long winded!

How's the weather in Beantown?

Crappy! Typical Beantown weather. This year was the worst winter as long as I can remember. Even now, when we get a few days of sunshine the rain/couds come back to remind us mother nature is not in a good mood lately!

:mad:


Regards,

[KPM]

Hi Guys!

I think you must have missed my question under "Historical Note" earlier in this thread. Anyone care to give it a shot? :-)

Keith

[reneritchie]

Keith,

There are some, and I agree, with YKS/SN, GL, YM (and other CWS), and YK, factoring out the known changes, we end up with a *very* similar core which probably was how WCK-proper was practiced on the red junks.

But that's only a historical curiosity, like a Ford Model T. Something could be original/old/traditional/etc. and not be very effective, so in and of itself, all the history does is establish a baseline.

[dzu]

Hi Jim


Well, I found from playing with both that "for me" the more compact horse alows from a shaper shocking Ging which unbalances the opponent and then once he is wabbling then the Bik/Biu power comes into play. For me the tighter posture allows me to feel like a sprinter ready to press and drive. "For me" the larger posture was more sluggish and I found the power to be more gross (or long) and "I" believe that the eventualy goal should be refinement not matter what platform you begin with. Gradually refine and shrink so your power and methods become more subtle and less nitceable. That doesn't mean I am correct or for someone else it wasn't the opposite but that was just "my" feelings from the practice of both.

When you say that the compact horse produces a more shocking Ging, are you applying it the same way as the wider horse? If we were to use the basic Jik Chung Choi in YJKYM on a stationary partner holding a focus mitt or air shield on his chest for protection, would you say that, in your experience, the compact horse generates better short power than the wider horse? i.e. Apples to apples comparison.

For me, the slightly wider (knees shoulder width) horse gives me the more compressed/ready to press and drive feel due to the more open pelvis. I like to think of Biu + Bik to break the structure and then Bik to keep them broken.

Dzu

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Dzu,


When you say that the compact horse produces a more shocking Ging, are you applying it the same way as the wider horse?

Pretty much the same. There is only one path of power in YJKYM no matter what the width is IMO. But! This was just for my body! It doesn't mean its not the reverse for others!

If we were to use the basic Jik Chung Choi in YJKYM on a stationary partner holding a focus mitt or air shield on his chest for protection, would you say that, in your experience, the compact horse generates better short power than the wider horse? i.e. Apples to apples comparison.

I found, for my body, that the wider horse took longer to generate power and it was a bit more lost in the lower body. The smaller horse, for me, had a quicker expression of power. More like a body sneeze versus a wave! I hope I am explaining this ok???

For me, the slightly wider (knees shoulder width) horse gives me the more compressed/ready to press and drive feel due to the more open pelvis. I like to think of Biu + Bik to break the structure and then Bik to keep them broken.

I agree with you about the drive feel! You do feel like you have more driving power with the wider base but, for me, the shorter power shocks the opponent more and then you Biu thru them and follow up with some Bik and then finito (hopefully)! Sometimes you dont even need to go that far (hopefully). I always felt the more compact was more like a snake coiled and ready to strike. I dont think its as small as you may think tho! Your feet still need to be wide enough to stabilize the body. So, the toes may be at the shoulders and the heels slightly past.


See ya,

[dzu]

Hi Rene,


When I wedge I tend to bow more and use the opponent for impetus. When I'm not wedging, I'll probably use the waist more, but for both pulling/extending and pushing/filling.

I tend to do the same. If I feel heavy pressure that I feel I can control, I will wedge in. If I feel that I cannot control it or it's too much for my skill, I will pull/extend/swallow to induce an over comittment.


For the mechanics, if there exists no pressure between me and my opponent, I have to create something to drive off of. A classic way of doing this is torquing the hips. If there is pressue, I can bow between the pressure and the ground and drive off that, not needing hip torque (only the structural component between them and the ground).

I can create something to drive off of by sinking and pressing my feet into the ground. This is like 'self-loading the springs' without requiring an opponent to load them for me. Insteaad of torquing the hips, another method is to use a minor shift so that A) I'm no longer double weighted and B) the tip of my triangle is cleaving/wedging into the center but his triangle is deflected to the side. In effect, I move the opponent so that he exposes his outside gate rather than move myself to his outside gate.

Dzu

[reneritchie]

Hey Dzu,

We'll use the rebounding force from Chum as well, but typically not for turning (for straight body application). That and the hip are probably the 2 most common power generation mechanics.

I tend to change from wedging to swollowing, as I said, I'm interested in the transition between the two these days.

[dzu]

Hi Rene,

The transition between the two is what makes them both work!
That whole Yin/Yang thing :)

Dzu

[KPM]

Just some more thoughts, based on the prior conversation about the width of the stance and the "ging" expressed. I find the narrower YGKYM of PSWCK to be a very stable but still a very mobile platform. It seems to me to be the "middle ground" between standing completely upright and thus being very mobile but not very stable, and standing in the wider version of the stance which tends to be very stable but somewhat less mobile. For me at least, I can be standing in a "natural" posture and simply sink my weight and let my heels go out to drop right into the PSWCK YGKYM with knees at a fist distance. Very fast and very natural. Another thing I have discovered is that the narrower stance allows me to sink and use my waist more easily. It just has a more "elastic" feel to me. I think there is a biomechanical explanation for this that has to do with abduction at the hips. I think also that good balance is an issue when using "waist ging" like we have been talking about. It seems to me that the narrower stance is a more balanced platform for using the waist. Again, I feel this is a matter of biomechanics. The simple explanation (or likely too simplistic) for both of the above points may be that as the stance becomes wider and the hips more abducted more muscle comes into play to stabilize the stance, despite how much you can "relax." A more narrow stance requires less tone in the postural muscles to maintain, and therefore stays more "elastic" and allows freer use of the waist. At least that is what I am feeling when I compare the two versions of the YGKYM. Other people's mileage may vary. :-)

Keith