catch me up on Shaolin controversies?

[lkfmdc]

This is a completely serious post, as I just read this forum for the first time last night (I generally read the open forum and the southern). To show how long I've been around (sad) I remember when the Chinese government found Hai Deng and got him to try and re-establish Shaolin. Anyone remember this? the movie where at the end he stands on one finger? The tour around the world where the movie was shown in Chinatowns and then Hai Deng and students would do demonstrations. Then apparently he fell into disfavor? When he died his students were kicked out of Shaolin by the government?

Other than that, I only remember that they had that first, really horrible, "shaolin monk" tour that Wai HOng sponsored here in NYC. They did wushu sets straight out of "Shaolin Temple" the movie and when a couple of the traditional sifu asked them if they could chant, they couldn't. They opened the performance by just standing on stage while they played a tape of chanting.

I haven't kept up on the Shaolin controversies since then, which was quite a while ago obviously. Now it seems like a HUGE MESS. Anyone care to just explain the issues? Not to flame, just so I have a clue what is being so hotly debated here?

[illusionfist]

I just recently acquired the Hoi Tung tape and i wasn't impressed with it at all. Lots of the stuff Hoi Tung did at the end looked like mere camera tricks, especially when he stabbed his fingers into the sand bag. I mean the guys fingers couldn't even straighten, they were crooked the whole time. Then of course the whole wu shu team bit and blatant Jet Li propaganda wasn't all that cool either. I like how they said that the wushu team is now spreading shaolin all over the world.

I've heard the many stories about Hoi Tung and i know lots of people respected him, but that video IMHO didn't do him any justice.

Peace :D

[phoenix-eye]

What was the name of the video?

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[lkfmdc]

Well, Hai Deng was a real Buddhist monk and had a good lineage that could be traced back to Shaolin (Lo Han I think) but he wasn't a "Shaolin monk" and certainly a lot of stuff in that film was hockey... remember "hitting" him with the three sectional and they were barely touching him. And the last scene was an obvious manipulation. It was arguably the start of the Shaolin problem, sort of real, sort of BS...

Anyway, anyone going to add more to this? We're stull talking about 10+ year old stuff and I'm curious to get caught up

[HuangKaiVun]

Fake or real, Hai Deng's videotape is an interesting study on the modern state of Shaolin.

Shaolin traditionally has been influenced by the governments that support it, and today is no different from any other time.

I don't disagree with anybody here on the wushu that was exhibited, and I'll bet that the current Shaolin monks would agree themselves!


"Real" Shaolin kung fu from a hardcore traditional combat perspective - definitely not!

"Real" Shaolin kung fu as it pertains to the state of Shaolin today - definitely

[This message was edited by HuangKaiVun on 08-27-01 at 08:15 AM.]

[Shaolindynasty]

Shaolin was never "traditional"

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[mortal]

I love the use of the word contemporary. Is that contemporary tai jutsu lol. Alot of lost souls in this country don't know the first thing about kung fu practice. It is not knowing a million fighting techniques and being generally out of shape. It is also about developing cardio. It is learning how to do your basics until they can be applied. For all you "real kung fu" people you should take karate. From what I could see there is nothing traditional about 9 out of 10 schools in this country. Traditional to me would be like standing in a horse stance for the first three years of training. Or kicking as high and mighty as you can for hours. No one in our fat ass country would ever do that. I'll stick to my contemporary wushu training with one of the fake monks. lolo
Whats up shaolin dynasty? Cool site? You ever come to New York? More Training. More Chi!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Mortal,
I've got a few students that would disagree with your opinion of Americans. They are fit, trained and ready to play.

Although, you are mostly right from what I have seen. Heck, I'm not fighting fit anymore, but that has more to do with desk jobs than desire.sigh.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[mortal]

I also have a desk job. It is hard to meet training schedules. By being in shape I mean really in shape. Not all bulked up from working out with weights. I am 29 and I train my little cousin(15) in shaolin. He would be the picture of physical fitness just by looking at him. Yet when we train he gets winded way too easily. My point is kung fu is about developing energy and fast twitch muscles. All I ever here about is applications. If the person you are fighting is not fatigued and you are, all the techniques and hidden applications won't save you. Sorry to make it sound like all Americans are out of shape. In my travels most are though.
In a way I am defending wushu because everyone bashes it but few do it well. Yet everyone considers traditional to be all these applications. Someone in one of these forums said that they are disciple of this guy and blah blah blah. Anyway he said there was a tournament so he would have to get back in shape. He should have been in shape to begin with! More training!

[xian_witch]

what does the training at the usa shaolin temple in manhattan for beginners consist of? is there a focus on chi development and breathing along with all the physical basics?how long does the average to semi-experienced person get put in horse stance?would you say the training there is a combination of both shaolin gong-fu and today's shaolin wu-shu?

harmonize the forces of heaven, earth, and hell.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'll go for that.

I agree with you completely, actually.

And frankly, I've noticed that my definition of out of shape is still better than the average person. (Although I'll admit to sucking wind after sparring a MMA guy last weekend. More footwork for me.)

But it is in the training. My group is 'traditional', but the training methodology is real - and therefore too boring for most people. But it does work at least from my emprical experiments ;).

I guess it goes to show the old adage is correct:

"In theory there is no differencve between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Shaolindynasty]

Is your philosophy the same as the USA Shaolin Temple if so.....I need to get to New York and join your school! Anyway I think you are right about people and their "magical applications that take no strength". Alot of Kungfu practitioners are out of shape.I agree totally with the USA Shaolin temples saying: More Chi! Train Harder! To bad most don't though.

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[mortal]

Bridewithwhitehair I answered these questions on the"who here has trained with a monk" topic. Actually these questions are slightly different. Anyway here goes
Cost 125 a month
or 300 every 3 months
or 1000 for the year

Chi development? I'll answer no. I think I know what definition of chi you are familiar with and Shi Yan Mings definition is different. He relates chi with energy and stamina he doesn't think it is mystical or makes power were there wasn't any. In other words he is more about the physical not the mystical internal side.
Horse stance?
He is not as stance oriented as alot of teachers. Nothing to worry about as far as him torturing beginners with a horse stance. He makes the class as a whole hold it for a minute. If you have to get up you can. Everyone seems able to do it though.
Wushu or kung fu?
Both hand in hand. before you get to the more advanced class he teaches you elementary long fist. It is a real endurance builder. "long" is a good description. I stiil can't do it and not be completely winded. The traditional is there as well. We also dp a good amount of pad work and lots of drills. class is 2 hours of torture but it pays you back 1000 fold in other ways.
Monkeyslap too What do you train in? Your the teacher? Cool. What part of the country? Just curious. if you aren't that far maybe I could check out your school.
Shaolin Dynasty beleive it or not I have quit training with Yan Ming. I am now training with Hengxin right around the corner. The classes with Yan Ming are intense but I felt I needed more personalized attention. Hengxin classes only have 6 people compared with Shi Yan Mings 60. Just keeping everyone updated lol. You should come out here and train sometime. There are fake ballet wushu monks everywhere!!!!!lol They all have one thing in common. Hard Training!!!!

[Shaolindynasty]

"There are fake ballet wushu monks everywhere!!!!!lol"

The ballet dance of Death!!!! I'd love to come to NY somtime and train, I hope that was a sincere offer cause I may take you up on it!!! As soon as I get the money to travel(things are tight now)I'll be there. When I go to NY I'd like to train with Yan Ming, Hengxin and Goulin. If nothing else just to see the differences in their training and philosophy.

New classes New online Catalog
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[mortal]

Come anytime. All the "fake ballet wushu actor monks" have their own "modern choreographed routines lol" I love that. Then what is karate? Why aren't katas called modern choreographed routines. oh I forgot there ancient watered down wushu to begin with. I would like to come out there and see how you guys do things. Hengxin is trying to get a school going but for now it is in a dance studio lol. perfect place. He gives tons of attention and trains with you. He is a great ballerina.

[Kung Lek]

unfortunately, Hai Deng was "used" by the prc.

He put on the mantle of "buddhist monk" but in fact was a lay disciple.

i remember that old film. There was one other about him and some textual information available and indeed it was Hai Deng who was called from his village to come to the temple and restart the martial monks.

He did fall from grace with the prc because of his wish to bring back the real agendas of the true shaolin order. This was unacceptable to the communists who didn't like the idea of "autonomous righteousness".

Shaolin was destroyed 3 times in it's long history because of it's autonomous righteousness and acts thereof.

If the rder thought a leader was bad for the people they would "remove" that person from their position of leadership under the idea of the buddha guatama that evil must be destroyed.

The destruction of evil was one of the main reasons Shaolin monks practiced martial arts.
Fire with fire so to speak. Defend the helpless and walk the eight fold path. it was a dichotomy to be sure and that dichotomy scared the hell out of any ruler of cheiftan or leader who was in any way shape or form corrupt. If he was corrupt and didn't do right by the people, the the order would put things right.

When it got very unstable in the late 1800's and through to the take over by the communist regime, many Shaolin went out into the world to bring Kung fu skills to the commoners, it was too big of a job for the monks alone to set right, so the idea was that the people could do it with their help.

The paradigm still exists, it is in a stage of dormancy at the temple now though and the whole paradigm of the Shaolin order has been distorted to the point where it is questionable in it's modern form by those who would seek to bind martial arts and buddhist philosophy together.

One day, this could all change again, but it doesn't look like that will be occuring all to soon. To much materialism and greed in the world, so much so that it overshadows the righteous acts of sensibility that could be happening.

To give up on the ideals of Shaolin and the ideals behind the original order is to forfeit the true Kung fu offered by the study of Shaolin Kung fu.

peace

p.s, read the "Shaolin Abbot is an ***hole thread, it is intersting. Also, Gene is there right now I think, I'm sure he will bring back some stories of what's up at the Temple and the wushuguan.

Kung Lek

[MonkeySlap Too]

My primary art is Shuai Chiao. I have clubs I started back in Chicago that are still active. Right now I'm on the West coast. I teach at a friend's school to help him out, but I currently do not teach regularly other than seminars at my old schools. My workouts are mostly learning more from other teachers or cross-training with other guys like me in terms of experience.

You can eMail me at VisaJoe@Hotmail.com if you want to get ahold of me.

It's a shame I didn't know of you before, because I was in New York in July with my top students to attend a wedding. It would have been fun to get a lesson in Shaolin.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[mortal]

Monkeyslap Too

I always wanted to learn about Shuai Chiao. I too wish we could have connected sooner. The two arts definitely compliment each other. In my old school(Shi yan ming)we had to learn forms for years before he would teach free fighting. I would love to learn something aside from bone throwing. We do alot of pad work to develop power and it works well but I want to know how to really lock someone up and throw them. I know plenty of Shaolin mini routines that are good for developing sweeps and overall athletism. Maybe one day I'll be able to travel to the west coast. Funds are tight as of now. My email is on my profile. Lets keep in touch. You never know.

[Royal Dragon]

Hmm,
From a guy who has been on both sides of the fence, I'd have to say back in my mid 20's, I was a CONSIDERABY better fighter than today. IKnow more now, but back then I was training like hours a day 6 days a week, with PLENTY of conditionnig. This included strength, Cardio and flexibility, all traditional exercises.

Now, especially with reacent health problems and a scedual that barely allows a maintinence program, even though I know much, much more, I can't put it all in gear the way I used to.

In my mid 20's, I could throw 1800- 2000 marching front snap kicks in 40 minutes, and not be all that winded. NOW, I'm doing 900 - 1000 in 20 minutes, close to my old performance level's halfway mark, but once I get to 1000 or 1100 kicks I just go in the dumper. I get winded, tired sloppy etc.. By 1400 kicks I'm so spent I almost feel like I need a nap, I can't even make 1500 anymore.

The same holds true for my stances, my once SOLID 10 minute horse stance is now a fight at 3 minutes.
My flexibility, wile seemingly "good" to an onlooker, it is actually tight, stiff and immobile compared to my younger self.

The difference in figting is VERY apparent. In the "old" days, if I looked at a target on my opponent, It was already being hit. That's it, no effort at all, it just happened. I guess my Chi just flowed real good back then or something. Often is an attack was comming in several defense options would come to mind and I'd just pick one and it automaticaly fired off, it was like my opponent was fighting in slow motion or something, I had plenty of time to think about stuff. I would conceptualize my response, and the appropreate technique just "happened".

Now, It'more of a struggle. I find myself in trouble more often and I need to use escapes and distancing as I can't block like I used to. It seems if I try to hit an open spot, my opponent has the opertunity to block it. Before I just blasted them.

Some say it's all age, as I'm 33 now, and I was like 24-26 then, but I know it's my hectic life style preventing me from maintainng my favorite 3 hour training scedual (like I could even do it today).

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[mortal]

Royal Dragon
You count your kicks? It must be hard counting to 2000. I think that must make it harder. I always just do as many as I can.
Horse stance. I think a ten minute horse stance is great! I never did one for that long. I think 3 minutes is good enough even though my monk teachers claim 2 hour stances.
I think the point that your getting older means training harder in a smaller period of time. Shi Yan Mings classes are 2 hours of none stop basics and forms. Compared with 2 and a half years ago when I started I feel, look and act younger. I found out pete sampras was 30. He looked like an old man. Kung fu training should be making you younger and stronger with more energy. If you really truly push yourself for an hour you would be to sore to stand.
I read about people going to gyms. I also read about how 3 times a week isn't enough and so on and so forth. I think the bottom line is these people are not training hard enough at the school. We think were training hard enough but these hired actor monks have shown me a new threshhold of pain and endurance that I don't beleive is pushed by alot of "American masters". That is the only key. My friend always asks me "what would you do if I did this" I just say I would kick your face. Than he says "I'll put my arms up" I would kick right through them. I was just trying to prove a point. Not sound arrogant. If you have been practicing a side kick for ten years and it can't blast through someones arms you better rethink your training. lolo

I guess all I can say is do as much as possible for 2 hours without stopping. Your moves will improve tenfold. Extend that time as you work up to it. I think 3 hours is the perfect all out workout so I start 30 minutes before class and try to finish 30 minutes after but it doesn't always work out that way.

P.S. don't forget to shave your head!lol :cool: