fighters of wc

[flaco]

guys, i love wc, and i have reached a very good realization in the last few years, most people will deny this, but i found that yes, i could handle some street guys with wc, but boxers were a real major problem, and wrestlers were a no way.i was training wc for ten years before truly realizing this. now, i know everyone will say that they have beaten this guy or that guy, and again i love the art, but i have gotten in a ring with boxers, and on the mat with good wrestlers, and although i would land some shots, the wrestler would get me down(i did 4yrs on bjj)so i was ok on the ground. a boxer always was able to beat with straight up, and again, these were good boxers, not joe blow.

i found, in the last few years of studying xin i, with a master, what wc teaching was lacking for me. again, i stateFOR ME, i found that way too much time was spent on drills, chi sau, lop sau, etc, not enough just go at it sparring. I did spar at times, with a helmet, and it was close, but it was against wc guys. its a whole different game, with real fighters of other styles. i realize how many wc teachers teach the style well, as a sport, and hobby, but very few can really fight. the ones i met that can fight, were gary lam, hawkins, i know duncan leung and david meadows, and boztepe also can all fight. but many people brag about the rooftop fights in china, etc. these fights by william cheung, and wong, etc, were mostly like in their early teens and twenties, so it was a very low level of fighting, by standards of today. think about the tough guys in your high school, but then years later, you matured, and could handle them. i really dont know how good those guys were at that age. how many wc guys fought in their late twenties, or even mid twenties, as men?

i always honestly thought, that if i boxed for ten years, like i trained wc, i would have been a much better fighter. boxers fight, they get hit, have awesome cardio, etc. i hope to be fully confident in my wc alone, but i feel i wasted many years with drills. also, i really want to hear peoples responses, in a humble manner. how do you really feel about fighting?

[foolinthedeck]

what specifically do you think is the benefit to you of xing yi?
i've done some looking into it, and it looks alot like wing chuns long lost internal uncle.

drills i agree are 'mostly' a watse of time. but not chi sau, when its all out with dirty tricks and everything.

tell us more about what the hsing i / xing yi gave to you!

[anerlich]

I have 13 years WC, 3.5 years and a blue belt in Machado BJJ, and did 5 years of Xingyi/Bagua about 20 years ago.

I agree with your comments about boxing and wrestling. If you can hold your own with a decent boxer, you have something that works. Your average boxer and wrestler train MUCH harder than your average WC student does, and they train like they fight. If WC people train with the intensity and intent of your average state level sportfighter, IMO they can do just as well.

You left people like Joe Sayah, Anthony Arnett and Rick Spain off your list, who had long and successful ring and tournament careers, under kickboxing rules, other stylists and the like.

I can't really follow your logic into Xingyi and other IMA though. It's been no more successful in MA and MMA competition than WC has, and IMO all the complaints you have about WC apply equally well (or poorly) to Xingyi.

Good combat pugilism is good combat pugilism, but IMO the bad internal MA schools are even worse than the bad WC schools when it comes to unsubstantiated combat effectiveness and overall spewing of crap.

[Neurotic]

one thing that is often overlooked in the comparision between something like boxing, and wing chun, is that (more often than not) boxing is something that you may do for a relatively short period of time, whereas wing chun is something that people (least I plan to) be doing their entire lives.

That way it actually makes more sense in terms of Boxing being the way it is - it teaches you to fight, with contact, because that's what you are learning it for, and that's what you will do with it (i.e. - get in a ring, and actually box.) If you are boxing, your chances of getting hit full contact are alot higher, as you are going in there with the intent of that.

With wing chun, alot of people do it for a lot of reasons - from health, to coordination, to self defense etc etc etc. As an instructor, you have to be able to cater towards all these types of people. Particularly when looking at some of the internal aspects of wing chun - these just take TIME.

If you want to take wing chun to a place where there is alot of sparring and alot of contact (and I'm not saying that is a bad thing) the onus is on you to find training partners to go and do that - the onus is not on the instructor or the style.

Anyhow - just my thoughts.

[yuanfen]

Flaco- I answered a query by you in another thread before I saw this one which gives a bit of your background.

Firstly, there are good and bad representatives of any art.

Secondly, one does not have to learn wing chun in order to learn how to fight or defend themselves.

Thirdly, in the current era -particularly in the US---empty hand arts have their limits in the face of gun fu.

Fourthly- wing chun is taught so unevenly and it has spread so fast- that it is difficult to generalize about what a wing chun person in the so called wing chun world really is and what they can do.
If one has first class wing chun instruction- then diligent learning. practice and experience can carry one far. If good wing chun is not available- I tell people find the best vailable in some other art
or arts. We live ina mass production era and somethings were not meant for mass production.

Fifthly- I agree with you that the so called roof top fights have their limts as examples of fighting.

Lastly--- in my own case(or anyone else)- no chest thumping or horn tooting is needed..period. But-
I was not unfamiliar with martial arts, sports or fighting when I came upon good wing chun back in 1976. As I often mentioned(MP hasa different view-which is ok)- the learning curve rises fast
in boxing and wrestling- but levels off by the time one is 30.
Getting going in good wing chun takes time but the learning curve goes up and up and keeps on developing the individual- since
wing chun is not a collection of techniques. At a certain point
of reflexive integration you see martial action through wing chun eyes.

You like many have listed some wing chun people as "fighters"-
those things are matters of opinion and you cant resolve those things in a net discussion..My list maybe quite different from yours. No matter.

BTW- the best individual fighter I have personally known- didnt have a day of formal ma instruction and I have seen him destroy
several first rate boxers and wrestlers...unfortunately as it sometimes happens a rusty icepick to his side shortened his fighting days.

Best to be wary of premature generalizations pro or con about wing chun. Both the art and the indivisual are important.
BTW- just to be sure- I am NOT arguing with you personally....just sharing a perspective.

[Ernie]

flaco

i believe you and i have crossed path's if i am not mistaken , and thank you for sharing your experiences .i hope your health is better and your training going well if you are who i think you are . ernie.
p.s. if i do have the right person in mind did you ever send that picture of hawkins gary and myself .:D

[1renox]

IMHO, when we WC guys fight in the ring against a ring trained opponent, we are already at a disadvantage because we are fighting on our opponents home ground. I'll assume there aren't many WC schools that teach or train how to sport fight. Anthony Arnett, is one exception in my style that I know of--boy how I wished I lived close and could train there!.

I think anerlich makes a good point:
"If WC people train with the intensity and intent of your average state level sportfighter, IMO they can do just as well."

On the street, I've used WC twice against poorly trained or little trained opponents and it worked fine. If they had been highly trained, I'm not sure what would have happened. I think WC has lots of answers, but I don't think it will work in every situation.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Flaco

Anerlich's remarks are on the money...sent you a private message about wc vs. boxing and wrestling...(specifically...TWC versus those arts).

[KenWingJitsu]

i found, in the last few years of studying xin i, with a master, what wc teaching was lacking for me. again, i stateFOR ME, i found that way too much time was spent on drills, chi sau, lop sau, etc, not enough just go at it sparring
WOW. Good to see there are some of us who have taken the 'red pill' and awoke to reality. So far noe of the "blue pill " crew have chimed in so I'll take that as a good sign...maybe they're taking the red pill.

What anerlich said is EXACTLY correct. Train with CONTACT. Train with realism. Train to win. Whne you can defend these things, then you can fight. I probably sound like a broken record to some, but who cares. Chi sao is only the beginging. All it is is a bunch of principles. Can you apply those principle sagainst a resisting aggressive uncooperative opponent? No? well take the red pill and start training to. BTW boxing is the best key to help unlock Wing Chun's potential. After all at its core Wing Chun is (or should be like) a form of boxing.

[Alpha Dog]

LOL, now it is Matrix allusions. When does the next Star Wars come out? I can't think without Hollywood to tell me how.

[Ernie]

ken
stop making sense you might scare away the children.
boxers will hit you from all availble lines of attack and angles [short of kicks and take downs]
if you have consistancy with your concepts against a boxer then a bum in the street will be a little less of a threat .
but it's got to be a real boxer not another wing chun guy with the same game plan as you .
this rode not only makes sense but is fun . you get to deal with your emotions a little pain and humilty and see another guys emotions .
i have learned more about why wing chun works in front of boxers and thai fighters then in any chi sau session.
you see the direct simple concepts that work under pressure and the silly ones that don't . then when you go back to class you refine your wing chun , with this personal information.
if you have a teacher that tells you not to test your skills i would worry about the effectivness of those teachings .

[flaco]

hey guys, first up, ernie, it's me. second- kenwing, its your buddy from ny.
as far as my eyes being opened, by xin i, again, there are good masters, and bad. my teacher is li tailiang, he was a great fighter, and xing i, does resemble wc in some ways, so i really like it. xin i, really focuses on body unity, and power. i know some good wc masters pay attention to this also, but my teacher knows all three xin i systems, so he is very adept at it. we really do need the internal side, in snt, how many people really train internal? it's there for a reason. also, how many people really focus on the spinal alignment in their wc, its what the chinese call qi, and what we call good structure. when your body is aligned properly, with little constriction, you are able to generate great power. i have seen many wc schools ignore this, other than say"keep the hips tucked, and the head up" theres alot more to it. xin i uses the principles of the art, and movements to adapt and fight with boxing, like beng chuan, its used as a boxing cross, another words, your not going to do tghe traditional stance and traditional beng chuan when actually fighting, and i see how effective it is.

i have also seen bad xin i, butmany many wc people all practice trapping and fast hand drills, etc, and they are always against straight punches, and my street experince shows me how few people punch straight. now i never said xin i was better, because i believ it is the practicioner that makes the difference, but one thing is that wc usually is upright, and i have seen herman suwanda my silat teacher, get down on one knee, and play wiyth wc people, and because he was low, he would either get the persons support leg when the kicked, or the wc man would have to punch downward, etc. so i see arts like xin i, silat, etc, the have high and low strategies, and train to burst up from low stances, etc.but most important is the sparring training.

also as far as being able to do wc when your older, as compared to boxing, i understand this theory, but i have never witnessed an old wc man fight an old boxer, so i cant say.i agree that a high level of chi sau is an awesome tool, and again, im glad for all the responses.but the days of the wc, and other gung fu excuses is over, we have yet to see a good gung fu guy stop a takedown in the ufc,etc. reason is not because of the art, but the way people train, collegiate wrestlers train for real, thats why coleman, kerr, etc kick ass, kickboxers train for real, thats why igor, smith,rutten, are all tough as nails. wc guys need to set new standards for training(some have), but most schools dont train hard enough, because it's about business, and money. thats not a bad thing either, but all commercial school owners should have a small group of guys that they train for real, on the side.

also, in closing, there are many xin i guys in china through the years who fought, and xin i was one of the only arts proven in actual combat on the battlefield, so i feel that it has something to offer. i also feel bjj has been proven on the street, and has much to offer. i really dont see many wc guys who can stop a good wrestler.(of course i give props to the ones that can)

[Ernie]

flaco
good to hear from you and i do hope you are feeling better . but there is no wing chun,no xing i,no kick boxing no bjj. there is just two legs ,to arms and bad intentions .
and a world full of people putting titles on training methods .
once you find ''your title '' then you limit yourself .
a sport fighter is required to have conditioning and mental intent. he also gets to pick his fights and get prepared for them. though i am an advocate of sparring and testing new arena's i do so with the full understanding that this is only a very limited tool '' though valuable'' when it comes to a street fight .
since you don't have a clue of how a attack may come or when or by who or how many. then all you can do is refine your ability to adapt and respond to a changing enviroment.
the key and hard part is how . fi you or anyone else feels on system by way of just learning the system is going to prepare them , then good luck .
the only way i have seen this addressed is by puting yourself through as many uncomfortable situations as possible and learning to adapt .
as for the who chi thing . when your getting out of you car and some one socks you in the face and two more guys pull you out and give you a good old fashioned shoe job . i don't think you have the time to summon your chi or put your spine in the correct position.
but that is just my small view on things .
p.s. whats up with the pic. and i might be going back east soon .

[flaco]

ernie, i agree with you on the car scene, and the qi, but the training of these aspects is important, i know if someone attacked me or you as stated, and the first shot landed flush, it ,may as well be over. you are all about street, and i respect that, however i have seen street stuff end quickly, and most, you cannot prepare for, and there is no time for strategy,etc i agree.
so in all honesty,you can prepeare to a certain point, but the bottom line is, how many wc guys train hitting pads, getting hit, getting used to being hit? how many can go 12 rounds in training,etc? my point is only that many wc schools focus too much on chi sau, and trapping. and most people get a false sense of confidence. however i have seen a good twc school here in manhattan, where they use a mouthpiece and vale tudo gloves only, and spar all out, and those guys are in shape, and can fight.

i have been in some brawls, where the boxer has knocked people out with one shot, and its because of how they train. you happen to have some real good teachers, so look at it from a different vies, im talking about the average wc school.

sorry about the picture, i keep forgetting.
as far as summoning qi, that was funny. but really, most external martial artist are injured much easier, than the internal guys, because of the alignment and training. i know many ufc guys who most are taking medications, and there mind and body is way off balance, and the careers will be short. also, without the internal, many of these guys have no way to turn off their rage, and some have abused their wifes, and beat up on people, so i truly believe, as does rickson, that you need bothe sides.

[KenWingJitsu]

"flaco" Wassup Danny!!!!!!

lol. Must you have a new screenname everywhere I see you?

Dang man, long time no see/hear. How you been?

Well it only makes sense that a friend of mine would start an intelligent post like this one.

[Ernie]

flaco''danny''
so in all honesty,you can prepeare to a certain point, but the bottom line is, how many wc guys train hitting pads, getting hit, getting used to being hit? how many can go 12 rounds in training,etc? my point is only that many wc schools focus too much on chi sau, and trapping. and most people get a false sense of confidence
probably more then we both think but i hear you loud and clear , but remember that which draws people to wing chun '' small guy beating up big promise ,if a girl can do it so can i stuff''
this will draw in people who fit that discription and thus your base of wing chun people don't want anything to do with pads .gloves and basicaly breaking a sweat, they want to know if there tan sau should be at this angle and which way there toe will point and how much wieght should be on there right butt cheek,
and if yip man had gas when he ate beans .
history freaks and geeks .
but this is common in life . if this was thai or boxing or mma we would see more warrior types .
but instead we have intelectuals go figure.
that being said there are some real folks out there doing there thing , i thank you for the compliment on me haveing good teachers and some quality that comes from that , but i'm just a regular dude trying to have fun and keep it honest .
plus i don't buy into any of that well my teacher says stuff i try it out for myself and make my choices based on trial and error .
and this does require gloves and pads and bruises and bloody noses ,chipped teeth and so on .
but on the flip side i din't like to hard core with wing chun people that to me is a waste of time . i like to refine skills with wing chun people ' but push myself with non wing chun people .
all in all still don't mean much in a street fight you might slip on some beer in a bar and hit your head on a table and game over .
i guess what i'm getting at in a way to many words is
don't blame those that don't see training and reality the way you do , just do your thing . if they are wrong then they will find out .
but you just worry about you . i almost lost some good friends trying to convert them to my truth , and you know what it wouldn't have been worth loosing the friendships .
when we met i didn't try to convert you but i got all excited to show you as much as i could , real open , no secrets or hidden ajendas .
and now if i see you again regardless of what your path or my path is i will great you as a friend and be the same hyper ,talkitive excited person i was back then.
any way don't be a flake on the pic and let me know when you get a faster isp and i'll send you some cool video.
peace
ernie

[anerlich]

flaco,

I see a bit more where you are coming from now (a pretty good place).

I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of the trappings of internal arts, but then I had a teacher who was a bit strange and manipulative.

What I do agree with is the need for proper structure, breath and alignment for power, energy management and the prevention of injury. If that's "qi" or "internal", so be it, but I can't follow that any further into some of the weird directions that too many IMA practitioners try to take it.

I also agree that many WC people give lip service to correct structure and alignment but not that many of them really understand it. Also that other arts provide better and more accessible solutions to some of the challenges of combat than WC does.

If you haven't already, you should take a look at Scott Sonnon's material (www.rmax.tv) - he touches on a lot of concepts which are fundamental to WC and IMA but explains them in a way which requires no "mysticalised" TCM-style terminology (he makes up some of his own, though :) ). I know KWJ's seen this stuff from the Underground, though he may feel differently about it than I.

[anerlich]

There seems to be a perception amongst some here that boxers have a training life of only a few years.

They may have fairly short RING careers, but these are much longer than the ring careers of most WC people (who have no ring career). Many become trainers and/or continue to hit bags, do roadwork, spar occasionally, etc. Some would be a lot fitter and handier than WC people of comparable age and training duration.

One of my instructor's Dad was a champion boxer in the British Army. He also trained in judo for many years. Basically, his son's students did OK when he was outside punching range, but if he got inside their kicks he'd murder them.

When he was in his late 70's and visiting the old dart, an aspiring punter tried to mug him. The old guy ended up chasing the would-be mugger into a toilet block, where the latter barricaded himself inside a stall until the cops arrived.

What happened to Ali is tragic, but he is in the vast minority. Look at George Foreman, even Joe Bugner if you want to see a boxer with longevity.l

[namron]

Originally posted by anerlich
There seems to be a perception amongst some here that boxers have a training life of only a few years.

They may have fairly short RING careers, but these are much longer than the ring careers of most WC people (who have no ring career). Many become trainers and/or continue to hit bags, do roadwork, spar occasionally, etc. Some would be a lot fitter and handier than WC people of comparable age and training duration.

One of my instructor's Dad was a champion boxer in the British Army. He also trained in judo for many years. Basically, his son's students did OK when he was outside punching range, but if he got inside their kicks he'd murder them.

When he was in his late 70's and visiting the old dart, an aspiring punter tried to mug him. The old guy ended up chasing the would-be mugger into a toilet block, where the latter barricaded himself inside a stall until the cops arrived.


What happened to Ali is tragic, but he is in the vast minority. Look at George Foreman, even Joe Bugner if you want to see a boxer with longevity.l

I too think the ring career thing is where most people get their misconceptions, especially when considering the elite athlete.
They seem to get the stereotype of the failed comeback or one punch too many fighter stamped into their minds.

Not that I would want my marbles rattled as many time as Foreman or Bugner!

Boxing is brutal but so is fighting, it has to be or else the end aim to subdue your opponent is failed from the beginning. Training for fighting doesnt have to be KO attitude but without the contact/resistance of the opponent your only seeing 50% of the picture (i.e. your purely seeing your skills, not your opponents and your reaction to them).

Take a look a good fighting gym say Dana Goodsons in Fitzroy thats trained many successful full contact fighters (boxing and kick boxing) and you'll also run into a whole knot of retired fighters there to train, coach or just yap.

[KingMonkey]

but remember that which draws people to wing chun '' small guy beating up big promise ,if a girl can do it so can i stuff''
this will draw in people who fit that discription and thus your base of wing chun people don't want anything to do with pads .gloves and basicaly breaking a sweat, they want to know if there tan sau should be at this angle and which way there toe will point and how much wieght should be on there right butt cheek,
and if yip man had gas when he ate beans .
history freaks and geeks .
but this is common in life . if this was thai or boxing or mma we would see more warrior types .
but instead we have intelectuals go figure.

This is right on the money. If I look at my school, there are only a small subset of us who want to train with the intensity and realism that I believe is necessary.

[flaco]

hey kenwing, i have a wedding in la, on july 28, i will only have a little time, but maybe we can hook up. email me at my wcskgh@yahoo, and give me your number.

[yuanfen]

Some apples and oranges are being compared.

Boxing is a very demanding activity and is a sport that can give relevant experience for fighting. Some good punchers can take out a person with one punch. Some non big punchers can throw
fast combinations that are difficult to interrupt. Boxers can be unfazed when hit and hit back. With a little adjustment- they can learn how to handle kickers. Grapplers can bea problem -but depends on the relative skills of the two.

Boxers should not be underestimated by kung fu people.

But the goals of the pro boxer is to make money- different from most wing chun people. Good ones in wc work on avoiding trading blows and chasing hands. Takes longer to develop wing chun skills to handle a boxer than the reverse. But once developed-
wing chun skills involve so many more weapons than boxers...
and boxers do burn out faster- if they are pros... and not dabblers.

Dementia, Alzheimers, shot reflexes, eye problems, tons of scar tissue and other repeated trauma related damage are all too frequent among the pros- even the good ones. The amateurs are different- but many amateurs get into boxing to try to become pros.
Damage is also related to the number of fights.

Sure Foreman is a special case... but the number of his fights were nowhere near Louis, Robinson etc. And they were spread out... he quit for some time after the significant Ali and Young disasters.

But the later health problems of boxers with more than 20 fights can be considerable... even the defnsive wizards dont quite escape it.

To Ali---you can adda long list of folks with significant problems
eventually..
Joe Louis, Billy Conn, Sugar Ray robinson,Floyd Patterson,Jerry Quarry, Jersey Joe Walcott, Graziano, AAron Pryor, Jack Armstrong
and others.
I am not against learning to box- its a real challenge of your soirit and mettle- when on the other side there is someone who means to do you harm. But a sense of proportion is vitally important.
Long term wing chun development with appropriate testing allows you to keep your brains and gives you a fair chance at survival- apart from other personal development benefits IMO.