all wing chun is not created equal

[Ernie]

ETW made a very interesting statement that got me thinking '' all wing chun is not created equal''
this intrigued me because I never saw wing chun as such a confusing thing . I will agree that all men/woman are not created equal , but wing chun is a systematic approach to develop fighting skill .
I understand that along the way some people have put there own slant on wing chunconcepts , favoring this over that . but that is also part of wing chun learn the whole system and after you have it , go out and use it and fid out what best applies to you as a individual and refine that .
so I can see why this person perhaps likes this stance and that person may never use that technique. based on individual experience makes perfect sense to me .
this leads me to my question '' what is wing chun to you?''
not the my sifu says , or my linage says stuff just what is it to you as another individual trying to do your best to figure it out and advance your potential.
to me it's scientifically supported system to develop fighting skill in the most efficient and safe fashion I have seen.
the key word being skill
1. sensitivity '' the ability read pressure and intent and use that information against an attacker.
2. timing '' the ability to know when to intercept , launch or apply a technique or concept
3. speed '' the ability to get the job done in the most efficient fashion ''
4. power '' a way to maximize my full potential to generate power from a structural point of view
5. adaptability '' the ability to flow and change as a fight changes and not be stubborn and to have the right tools to change and adapt with.
this is what it sums up to for me , beyond the name wing chun,beyond the forms ,beyond the politics .
what do you find to be your core understanding and universal application
1. body structure '' to absorb and generate power /to understand my own body and mind and to understand how to use another persons to defeat them .
2 . forward intent '' some like the word pressure , but basically to always give the person some thing to deal with instead of you dealing with there attack.
3 sensitivity '' to redirect and feel a persons strength and weakness and focus my strength into there weakness.

now there is allot more to wing chun application I know but what is your take on it and how do you develop it . is this not the information we should be sharing vs. that my teacher did in 1902.
again I don't see as there being any secrets just hard work and training ina progressive fashion the testing and refining ,
words can lie but experience can not you just have to deal with it and if your smart learn from it . and if your good hearted share it for the benefit of others .

[WCis4me]

to me it's scientifically supported system to develop fighting skill in the most efficient and safe fashion I have seen the key word being skill.
1. sensitivity '' the ability read pressure and intent and use that information against an attacker.
2. timing '' the ability to know when to intercept , launch or apply a technique or concept
3. speed '' the ability to get the job done in the most efficient fashion ''
4. power '' a way to maximize my full potential to generate power from a structural point of view
5. adaptability '' the ability to flow and change as a fight changes and not be stubborn and to have the right tools to change and adapt with.
this is what it sums up to for me , beyond the name wing chun,beyond the forms ,beyond the politics .
>Couldn't have said it better or agree more. Part of that is exactly what WC is to me, and the rest is what I want and am striving for it to be to me.

[fa_jing]

hey Ernie, nice post!

[Ernie]

fa_jing
than you , just trying to find some silver lining in all the storms i tend to brew up :)
please feel free to share your definition of the system . it would seem that many argue ofer minor details yet when a honest over explination is asked '' silence falls and i can hear the cricket at my feet'':D
i'm looking for universal concepts that define wing chun , the heart and soul of it from a individual point of view .
i expect it to vary , but that's what makes it beautiful is all the diffferent ways it can be expressed.

[fa_jing]

I would just add that of all of the above points you have laid out, Ernie, the one that makes it all come together is Timing. Timing is the missing ingredient in many people's Wing Chun and it can only be fully learned in sparring, IMO. Technique is important, but Timing is more important than Technique.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I Technique is important, but Timing is more important than Technique.

Nonsense. If your technique is good, you have all the time in the world.

[Ernie]

alpha dog
Nonsense. If your technique is good, you have all the time in the world.
o.k. which technique ,againist what , how do you scientificly and progressivly make it good and adaptible . why is one technique better then anotherif many will work towards the same goal , what defines a good technique .how do you personally develop this good technique, when do you use this good technique and what is your defenition of wing chun. please share

[Alpha Dog]

If you think that MA in application is a matter of applying this technique in that situation, then I have found your obstacle.

[Ernie]

i'm just feeding of the wording that you used , and i just wanted you to share your reasoning with facts , so that we may all gain from your remarks , nothing more by the way could you add to the original question what is wing chun to you.on a individual basis.
you seem very definitive with your conclusions on combbat and i would love to read a detailed explaintion of your wisdom as i lack your obvious clairity .
thank you

[Alpha Dog]

Ernie, what really troubles you?

[Ernie]

well
i feel that if we are to get anything out of this forum we should support our statements instead of being smart a$$ess . if you make a blanket generalation you should back it up with experience and fact . or else our dialogue is reduced to ingnorant childish stabs at one and other ''which i caught myself falling into as well. ''
so i simply asked you to validate your statment yet you seem unable to . i would like to take what you say something we can all learn from yet it is difficult when you answer a question and avoid the oriqinal question.
this is by no way a attack but the exact oppisite just seeking individuals oppinion and experiences based on fact .
i asked a very simple question what is wing chun to you.

[Alpha Dog]

I'm not being a smart ass. I disagreed with someone other than you, and I stand by what I said -- timing isn't the key. If you focus on timing, you see your opportunity as a brief window to strike, rather than control.

You chose to pick up the ball, even though it wasn't thrown to you, with a glib "ok, tell me what you would do in any given situation" reply. And to that I maintain, it's impossible/impractical to look at WC or any MA in such simplistic terms. You have to be there to judge distance, terrain, trajectory... lots of variables; you can't sit back online and pontificate "if... then..." strategies.

But I am a nice guy, so I will answer your question. To me, WC is having complete, unequivocal control over your opponent.

[PaulH]

AD,

You are a very talented writer and gifted with words. I would rather that you use it for substantial WC discussions rather than more fruitless chases on the "wabbit's trails." It's unseemly of your good talents. Let be nakedly real for a change under the sun.

Regards,

[Ernie]

cool now we have a dialogue
what do you see in wing chun that allows you to develop this '' complete control''
and how do you feel you developed it and improved it .
i do agree with you you can't crystalize a fight and have all the answers in a nice neat little system .
You have to be there to judge distance, terrain, trajectory... lots of variables; you can't sit back online and pontificate "if... then..." strategies
what do you find in your training that has alowed you to develop this ability .
i am happy to see you contribute , it would seem that people are very gaurded and don't like to put them selves or there experiences out there . but i didn't start this thread to saw this is right and that is wrong . just wanted to ask a simple question and see if people could answer .
i butted in on your comment to avoid it becoming a argument with people throughing darts at one in other seeing who could become the biggest *****.
there is tones of that going already .
so i can honestly say thank you for hanging in there and giving your view .
that ''alpha dog '' is all i was looking for .

[Ernie]

hey paul your not off the hook ,
what is wing chun to you and why.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by PaulH
AD,

You are a very talented writer and gifted with words. I would rather that you use it for substantial WC discussions rather than more fruitless chases on the "wabbit's trails." It's unseemly of your good talents. Let be nakedly real for a change under the sun.

Regards,

Hey Paul! How's life? Thanks again for the kind words. But I am curious as your interest in me.... Is this some Great Expectations of the 21st Century? If so, I will do as you say b/c I could use the inheritance.

[PaulH]

Here is what know in my simplistic version of caveman's WC:

1. To hit without being hit.
2. To hit in protected lines.

It works! Let not rock the boat! Ha! Ha!

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Ernie
what do you find in your training that has alowed you to develop this ability .


Developing the ability means being on the right road to it. This is the path I am taking, because I see it as the right one. If you or others disagree, all the best to you and I hope you reach your goal.

[PaulH]

AD,

The ****ensian world has long passed away until you come along in the guise of Mario Puzo. I enjoyed your latest fiction a lot. Inheritance? I'm afraid you will get nothing but empty winds. They come and go. Nobody know even where they come from and what it is all about in the end. Let be friends while it lasts.

Regards,

[Ernie]

paul that was a safe answer , but thanks for your two cents :o
alpha ,
your road is your road and that is the right road for you no other person can disagree with that .
but here is my delema, when some on in the street ask you what is wing chun , how would you answer them in a way they could understand . i started the post with my explination . and i know i can't have all the answers . so i thought i would pick a few brains .
i was looking to see if there were common denominaters between all our different approaches universal truths , that we as wing chun people hold dear and follow . i know we have our proverbs and sayings . but i wanted a regular guy point of view . no my sifu say's stuff or this grandmaster told me in a secret chamber stuff.
just bare bones wing chun.
and i am amazed on how hard that is to get people to talk about .
since i always read stuff like . well if they did proper wing chun then that wouldn't happen , yet no one defines proper wing chun. they just make statements .
so i said to myself ''self lets ask the most simple direct question i can ask , and see what happens.
thanks for the input. and may you advance everyday.

[Alpha Dog]

So, which is it: technique or timing? Or neither? What comes after technique to make timing irrelevant?

[Ernie]

So, which is it: technique or timing? Or neither? What comes after technique to make timing irrelevant?
that would best be left for another thread as i don't want this one to go astray but since you were cool enough to contribute .
this is how i see it
technique is the mechnical application . the ''how '' to do something . [ you through a punch like this ]
technique by itself is just a empty form .but we must learn how from something .
timing is the ''when'' you use said technique . this we learn from experience and feel.
the how is the easy part the when is the hard part as it is alive and adaptive .
for example lets say you favorite technique is a striaght punch . you have punched the air and the bag 1000 times or what ever and you have it down.
now you have to hit a moving target that is trying to hit you and infict damage to that moving target .
so since the ''how '' the punch in this case can be interchangable with any other tool , kick ,eye jab and so forth it seems less important and more open to interpitiation then the ''when'' timing which must remain constant .

[Alpha Dog]

So in your interpretation "timing" is not seizing a window of opportunity to strike but to know what to do, when? If so, I can live with that.

[Wingman]

Nice discussion between Ernie & Alpha Dog. Below are my views about technique & timing.

IMHO, technique comes first before timing. You first must know HOW to punch before you know WHEN to punch.

Ernie's definition of timing is correct & simple. Alpha Dog's definition of timing is also correct yet profound. I like his definition of timing, "seizing a window of opportunity".


now you have to hit a moving target that is trying to hit you and infict damage to that moving target

When trying to hit a moving target which is also trying to hit you, you must know WHEN to hit it . At the same time you must not give the "moving target" an opportunity to hit you first. The best time to hit the target is when he gives you the opportunity to hit him (example: he made a mistake). You must immediately seize that "window of opportunity" before he has time to recover.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Wingman

When trying to hit a moving target which is also trying to hit you, you must know WHEN to hit it. ...... You must immediately seize that "window of opportunity" before he has time to recover.

Wingman is correct

-David

[Alpha Dog]

I see where you are coming from, but here is what I am aiming for: I hope that one day my WC will be good enough that I don't have to wait for my opponent to give me those windows of opportunity -- I want to be able to create them at will. I think that WC has this potential.

[sel]

to me, wing chun is

maximizing my potential to generate force and overcome force

[Ernie]

wingman
nice blend of alpha dog's and my discriptions, thnaks for chiming in , could you give your input on the original thread question, a little break down of what you see wing chun to me and what to you is the most common core concepts

dersert wing chun ,
could you add as well.


alpha dog
your concept of not being ruled by another persons timing ,or haveing to wait for the ''time '' to go in .
is one i have been working on for a few years now , as i prefer to be on the initiating attack side . '' probably do to the fact that i get bored easy:) ]
this type of timing is to always be one 1/2 beat ahead of the person . i say 1/2 beat , because you still want to be close enough to the action to moniter change and be able to adjust . if you are a full beat ahead sometimes your moving a little to fas and commited , and can't draw your attack back or alter it's course when the situation comes up.
now you can launch a simulated agressive attack to draw out a cohesive element '' man sau concept ''on a full beat then cut your time to a half beat to continue you now adjusted attack .
either way the other person is behind your timing , chasing your timing'' sort of like chasing hands concept''
this way the person is more worried about defending and trying to regain position then hitting you.
basicly he is no longer fighting you '' the art of fighting with out fighting '' but you are free to fight him.
i never want to be in a slug fest were to ego's are battleing it out . not for me i never want to know how good the other persons skills are . i want him dealing with mine and if he can still come back from that , well that's why i keep fit , so i can run for my **** life ......
this timing that i have gotten so long winded about is one of the more difficult as it goes back to closing the gap ,i have found my solution but it does diviate from '' wing chun sitting structure and posture '' though i still stick to center facing principle and elbow's down my foot work has been modified and my wieght distribution also has , as i see a attack posture much different then a recieveing posture . but more on that on another thread perhaps .
thanks again for all your input

[canglong]

Ernie,
Don't you think all wing chun is created equal it's just the application that may vary?

[Ernie]

what is your definition of wing chun , most important core concepts that you in your expression of wing chun find to be of greatest use .
i listed mine but i would like to hear other peoples

[canglong]

My personal definition of wing chun looks at wing chun as a science more than an art and would start with a complete state of self awareness gained through the science of human physiology/kinetics provided by human interaction with the experience of time space and energy. A core triangle of human body > deminsions of time space and energy> and the correlation of those two factors and absolute truth, if you will.

I believe the kuen kuits express this science though obviously they lose something in the translation or more wing chun would look more similar than not as is the case.

[Ernie]

thank you tony
but can we de mystify it a bit and perhaps look at the exact skills you feel are key in this very intelectual definition. pretend im just a regular guy at the pub .
what i'm looking for is the body [what skills you feel are important and how you systematicaly develop them]
the mind [ mental state, animal instinct , nerological triggers and how to find better and faster stimulation and response ]
all summed up so that a three year old could get the general idea .
what is wing chun , how do you learn it and how do you use it .why is one wing chun better than another and yet no one can explain this in a definitive fasion beyond one silly detail over another one ,
there has to be a core commen thread for it to be wing chun the key elements and a way to develop them. very simple
no need for politics and my sifu said stuff that is all personal slants and gets more into the whole spiritual voodoo bible thumping thing . it gets personal and that may be what wing chun is in the end product your personal interpetation of the core idea's
which leads me back to the beggining what are the universal core idea's that make up wing chun.
sorry to rant but wheni get a thought going it takes over..:D

[canglong]

Ernie, lol fair enough,

The core you speak of is Taan, bong, fuk and gate theory everything else you mention is just window dressing, attributes that are either natural or better applied over time. Staying with the core taan bong fuk, gate theory you then add the kuen kuits that is what brings wing chun alive I believe. Skill I am talking about is knowledge because when you learn wing chun although it does make you stronger faster quicker it does so with knowledge along with years of physical skill enhancement. How do you acquire this skill? Only way I know is constant and persistant study and practice.

[Ernie]

tony , i here you loud and clear
as far as the three terrors of wing chun and how they deal with energy at perspective ranges and positions.
the core taan bong fuk, gate theory you then add the kuen kuits that is what brings wing chun alive
but this is all determined by individuals personality level of sesitivity and natural attribues ...so results and interpetations may vary.
but
Skill I am talking about is knowledge because when you learn wing chun although it does make you stronger faster quicker it does so with knowledge along with years of physical skill enhancement. How do you acquire this skill? Only way I know is constant and persistant study and practice.
skill or rather specific development of skill as it relates to the human body in a combative situation as defined by the priciples of wing chun.
this is the part that i don't see addressed in a very clear and systamatic way uniformly among wing chun people .
the how to aquire skill and how to break each skill down train it specificly and then put them all back together again to make a stronger more effecient whole .
this should be common knowledge yet it is not ,
anything can be broken down in stages and worked on it's how we as humans learn .
but i don't see that in our wing chun world . opps i'm ranting again. thanks for your words ......

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
alpha dog
your concept of not being ruled by another persons timing ,or haveing to wait for the ''time '' to go in .
is one i have been working on for a few years now , as i prefer to be on the initiating attack side . '' probably do to the fact that i get bored easy:) ]
this type of timing is to always be one 1/2 beat ahead of the person . i say 1/2 beat , because you still want to be close enough to the action to moniter change and be able to adjust . that's great! It's unfortunate that your JKD mentality is holding you back from achieving it sooner.

[Ernie]

etw ,
there you are , i knew you would chime in with a childish remark . but to actually , get some good information out there and make something positive come from our little dicussions , could you add your wisdom to this thread
since you inspired it . by saying wing chun is not created equal.
could you in a factual and scientific way validate that statement
and give us lesser beings your personal interpitation of wing chun.
not in a my sifu or my system way but from your own experiences.
i'm sure you have the difinitive ability to clairify this for the rest of us . thank you for responding.
p.s. but if all you got is empty name calling save that for the playground.

[EnterTheWhip]

Children do have a knack for seeing the truth.

[Ernie]

well
you proved my point you can't step up and give you clear and scientific view on wing chun . but you sure seem all emotional about jkd . lots of remarks but empty................
sad though i was hoping you were adult enough to add some useful information. any way good luck and dont forget to change your diaper cuz you smell like your full of something .
sorry couldn't help myself :D
but really if you got something good to add it will be well recieved.

[KenWingJitsu]

When in doubt, AD HOMENIM ATTACK! lol.

Watch out 4 the theorists.........

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
but really if you got something good to add it will be well recieved. You first.

[Ernie]

whip
i did when i started the thread and have continued through out the thread .
simple process read fisrt ask questions later , give statements back them up .
hey
ken could you add your input of what wing chun is to you . and what are the core elements you see make it all come together.
no theories :D just plain old fundamentals .

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
whip i did when i started the thread and have continued through out the thread . Perhaps you think so. I haven't read anything good from you yet.

[canglong]

"...skill or rather specific development of skill as it relates to the human body in a combative situation as defined by the priciples of wing chun." Ernie

you find little of for the same reasons self interpretation called evolution has taken over training.

"this is the part that i don't see addressed in a very clear and systamatic way uniformly among wing chun people ." Ernie

Unfortunately, I have to agree yet there may be hope on the horizon.

2 tracks of learning wing chun understanding SNT and SLT for they are not the same (http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/hfy_two_track.php)

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
I see where you are coming from, but here is what I am aiming for: I hope that one day my WC will be good enough that I don't have to wait for my opponent to give me those windows of opportunity -- I want to be able to create them at will. I think that WC has this potential.
That is a very profound idea. It is certainly something we should all aim for -- "Don't wait for something to happen; instead, make it happen".


Originally posted by Ernie
...could you give your input on the original thread question, a little break down of what you see wing chun to me and what to you is the most common core concepts...
IMHO, the core concepts of WC is summarized in my signature:

Defend where there is no attack; attack where there is no defense. Attack is the secret of defense; defense is the planning of an attack

a) Defend where there is no attack
The centerline is where we should occupy & defend. If the centerline is well defended, it would be very difficult to attack. The opponent will be forced to look for a more indirect route to launch his attack rather than mounting a direct attack on the centerline.

b) attack where there is no defense
We should always probe for the opponents weaknesses; and launch our attack from there.

c) Attack is the secret of defense
Another way of saying this is, "offence if the best defense".

d) defense is the planning of an attack
If you have no good defense, then you won't be able to plan & launch an attack because you are busy defending against your opponent's attacks.

As to the question whether WC is created equal, my answer is, "NO". WC might teach us the same principles; but each individual will formulate different strategies. And each individual will carry out these strategies differently.

[Ernie]

tony
thanks for your information

wing man
'' bravo''
the next step would to take each of your very well put stradagies and look at the skills and training that it would require to develop them . but you have given a very clear answer and for that i thank you.

etw , i think you are what they call a ''troll'' and should be best left to wallow in dark holes.

[KenWingJitsu]

Your last statement Ernie, is your most correct.

As for what WC is to me? Well, it's a bunch tools and principles to help me beat someone up :D

[AndrewS]

What is Wing Chun to me?

1). A method of fighting
2). A meme- a self-perpetuating construct of skills, ideas, and socialization
3). A large part of my life and way of personal experience

2) and 3) are a portion of any martial system to its serious practitioner.

1). is the matter we discuss here.

As a way of fighting Wing Chun is-

- a set of mechanics, a way of using the body, focusing first on what could approximately be called flexor compartment usage to unify the body, and extensor compartment usage to express force, while maintaining alignment between contact point and ground using an ever-shifting path of support musculature, control of which is driven by perception of internal state and relation to external force ('sensitivity'). Later in the learning progression, subtle interplays of flexor and extensor are used to express interesting kinds of force. Mechanically, whole body or parts are used.

- a group of fighting strategies, dealing with contact and precontact situations, focusing on making contact, all primarily derived from the idea of initial attack, based on the mechanics above

- a set of visualizations, cues to internal states to better achieve the mechanics and strategies above

- an ongoing self-transformation process bone, tendon, muscle, nerve, and self, through which I find the route to my most effective performance in combat, and create the self which performs best in combat

Hmmm, I should probably shoot myself now- I think I just started to sound like Peter Ralston. . .

Andrew

[Ernie]

ken
thanks
andrew
thank you for your time and thought on that on , i really do look forward to us sharing and comparing , i only hope i have something to contribute .
on a side note i got some video of the stuff ''wing chun wise '' we do on my server laet me know if you want to peep it and i have some '' stick and knife as well from a seminar my friend rob held at gary's school.
just thought i would put it out there .

[AndrewS]

Hey Ernie,

I'd love to see any video you have. I have some stuff on tape that's worth a look, too. Once my schedule calms down, maybe we could get some folks together for a beer and video night. . .

I'm looking forward to catching up with you- I think we should both have some good things to share.

Later,

Andrew

[Ernie]

andrew
i'll pm you a list of some stuff,
i got a very extensive collection some stuff i can openly just share and some stuff out of respect for those that allowed me to have i can only show.
drinks food and wing chun now that makes for a night .
looking forward to it man. i might get ghost on this forum though . so keep track of my email

[KenWingJitsu]

You'll have to include me in that Ernie. I didnt notice you were in L.A.

[PaulH]

I really like what is happening between you guys now. I hope you all can make use of the vast amount of info available to improve the learning and adaptive process from WC theories to actual fightings. It can only get better from now on.

Regards,

[Ernie]

ken
i'm all about makeing friends with the same twisted self distructive mind i have :D
you in partner just keep track of my email or icq as i said i might bounce of the forum ,
never was one for this stuff and i find myself getting to much radiartion of my pc:mad:

but if i hook up with some more crezy folks thatn it was worth it :D

[Ernie]

paul
what you think i'd leave you out , your automaticly incuded man your like family.
sounds like a frienship seminar with drinks
we got the emin camp,wsl,moy yat,concepts guys ,and so on hell lets charge admisssion:p
good things come from good people
peace

[Ernie]

oh
by the way
i don't drink beer but i can bring the rum and cuban cigars

[AndrewS]

Hmm,

I've got an apartment in WeHo that might work as a nice central get-together.

Is a week from this Saturday at 5ish good for people? Maybe go do a couple hour workout in the afternoon, so we can play a little, then head back to somewhere for booze, tape, and socialization?

Ernie, you're in luck- Rum is one of the few things I find undrinkable, so I think I have a quart or so in the cupboard. Bourbon, on the other hand, rapidly evaporates in my presence. . .

Later,

Andrew

[Ernie]

i might be able to do that i'll be out of town this weekend i'll check with my better half .
but it looks good .
lets stay on it and make it happen . i train from 7 till 2 on sat .i'll be spent but always down for another work out .
don't worry about the spirits i rarely drink but some occassions are worth a toast .
andrew did you get that clip
it's gary lam playing around with pak sau .
well off to get eyejabbed at class be well gentleman

[Ernie]

well all good things must come to an end
this thread burned brightly for a while and gave much insight .
i would like to thank all those that contributed and put up with my questions .
train hard play hard laugh hard squeeze every last drop out of life before they put you in the dirt:)

[PaulH]

Good idea, Ernie. I heard this morning that one of my company's employees is murdered by her husband who also killed himself afterward. He is merciful enough to spare the lives of his children. It sobers me up. In life we find death so suddenly. I ask myself today how should I live if tomorrow never comes.

Regards,