Your womens self-defense seminar

[Black Jack]

I got this thread idea from the armlock posts. If "YOU" were to give a women's self defense seminar. Lets say a one day 8 hour event with a mix of females from different backgrounds and ages.

What would you speak about and impart to these women to the best of your ability?

[Shaolin-Do]

That chances are, no matter what they know, they still are not going to beat a man.
Kick him in the nuts, and run. Then let me know.
Least thats what I tell my female to do.....
:)

[shaolin kungfu]

Bite, kick, take off your top, run.

[Black Jack]

Gender physical differences and training ideas aside for a second.

Don't you think that might bring on a defeatist attitude?

[MasterKiller]

I've been at a 2 hour seminar my Sifu gave once. Here's some of things he did.

1: Situational awareness—We did drills where the women had to yell at us if we approached too close while trying to talk to them. Some of the women had a hard time telling us to get away from them.

2: Aggression Training—We did drills where they had to hit a dummy hard in the eyes and then run. We stood still and made them attack the dummy, rather than waiting for them to be attacked and then react.

3: Blind Training—They laid on the ground, and we got on top of them and covered their face with a pillow. At the same time, we held a dummy head within arm's reach. They were taught to cup their fingers around the dummies ears, and then jab their thumbs into the attacker's eyes. A lot of the women freaked when the pillow went over their head.

4: Basic Chin Na. We went over some basic escape and counters from chokes and grabs, and made them practice against heavier, resisting opponents.

[Robinf]

Have them practice these tried and true remedies:

Have her carry an engagement ring and say, "Not until you commit to me."

Have her carry a picture of her family and her date book and say, "So, when are you available to meet my parents?"

[HuangKaiVun]

Good thread, Black Jack.

A woman CAN beat a male - BADLY.

Were that not the case, my student (herself a violent crime survivor) would not've left a powerful would-be kidnapper incapacitated on the sidewalk. He was hospitalized for at least two weeks before being set to jail.

I don't know if I'd do eight hours all at once. , as that's a very long time with a great deal of information. I might split it into about 8 sessions of one hour or 4 sessions of 2 hours (if only to break up the learning patterns).

In general, I'd focus on basic physical maneuvers. Since the goal is to be able to respond to any attack anytime anywhere in any setting, having strong fundamentals is key. This goes beyond merely punching and kicking - it includes escapes, grappling, submissions, and even how to do fatalities. I'm a traditional Chinese kung fu teacher, so I'd probably tie the knowledge in with any one of the short sets that I teach in my school.

Awareness of common scenarios is very important. Knowing the mentality of who you're fighting - be it male or female - is also important. Weapons - there are "weapons" all over the place. All of these need to be addressed at some point in one's training.

Basically, it comes down to applying the lessons of a martial art to real life scenarios.

[Shaolin-Do]

Apologies, that was maybe a little of an over generalization.
But, you have to agree, very few women can take out a man attacking them, and you dont want them leaving with the misconception and false sense of security that they can take out a 250 lb gorrilla of a man who wants to rape/kidnap them.

And robinf, parents love me.


:D


But that engagement ring, no @ss till we're married thing could be a bit of a clencher....

[SevenStar]

basic awareness

target areas to look for

why you shouldn't try to rely on a shot to the nads

grappling

effective use of the elbows, knees and palms

pros and cons of various self defense tools, like pepper spray (or foam), the kubotan, etc.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yet my student (who was 95 lbs) took out a guy who was 6'5" and about 300 pounds!

Those who really train LOSE that sense of "false security". When you get accustomed to training against huge multiple opponents, you realize how easy it is to get hurt no matter how skilled you are.

If anything, training makes you MORE vigilant of what's going on around you. That in itself can save you, as it did this same student who was approached in a parking lot by two young men trying to corner her.

She didn't have to resolve to violence that time, but her "b1tchwalk" and spacing stopped them from moving in on her. So did the key in her hand, which she held like a dagger.

[GLW]

Self defense for women (or anyone for that matter) seminars that focus on techniques and 'how to' actually do more harm than good.

To defend yourself, you have to know when to strike, how to strike, and be able to generate sufficient power to make the strike do damage. You also have to know when to run.

All of these things are developed in much more time than a one time 8 hour class.

If this is all you do, you are likely teaching a group of people to have a false sense of security...and that leads to making stupid mistakes.

If, on the other hand, you deal with the ideas involved...it may be worthwhile.

For example:

Question:
Should I pursue something that will enable me to actually defend myself physically?

Answer with a question:
How do you feel about the sight of blood - YOURS. you will see it and you WILL have to deal with that and the repercussions of doing bodily harm to another person...and that other person WILL want to do serious bodily harm to you.

If the student is uncomfortable with any part of that answer, they should NEVER try to do the defense route. They will fail and it will make things worse.

Deny privacy:
Stressing how important it is NOT to be caught alone with no escape. Things from not being in stairwells, getting off elevators if someone gets on and they make you uncomfortable, etc....

Why not to Yell HELP...but FIRE instead:
People ignore calls for help...but everyone reacts to FIRE.

Why the guy in front of you is not your only worry...

Not every mugger works alone and if your approach in awareness is to focus on the one - you will miss the many.

Be aware....

Most important idea.

THINK BEFORE....it saves reacting blindly.

Have an out....

Etc....

The best lessons do not involve anything other than the mind...

And then...if they want a more active response, you can introduce them to the idea that such training does not happen in a few hours...but it IS possible for everyone to do...provided they can deal with the emotional aspect...their blood, fear, hurting another person, etc...

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!, this is the second topic that spun off comments I made in another thread!! (In the same week no less :D )

To answer the question, I have no idea what I would teach.

The "Royal Dragon school of Mind and Body" is sort of like a sub contractor buisness. I run martial programs or Tai Chi for health classes for park dists, Kid's Kung Fu programs for elementary school etc... When I sit down, and interview a client, and they ask "What can I do for them", I always ask "What do you need?" as I can offere programs to fit a variety of needs, and customise my standard programs to fit even more. Inevitably, there are aways two requests, Some sort of Tae Bo, or Women's Self defese classes. I refuse to teach both.

Why you ask? Because the Tae Bo stuff no one wants to pay attention to doing the moves right, and I see too much risk of hyper extensions and other such related injuries. If you take the time to really teach them right, they quit because they just want to bounce around and pretend they are "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". I have offred the class, but only on the prerequisite that they complete the first Level of my basic Kung fu system (Minus the form). No one was willing to do it then.

As for Women's self defense, I KNOW in order to make it work, comercially, I'd have to be instilling a level of false confidance. I'd be teaching a fantasy. If I had a school, I'd consider it, but ONLY as an intro to the regular Kung Fu clasess. I wouldn't even charge for it (Well, maybe like $5 to cover insurance costs and such). The reason is that in order for someone to REALLY be able to defend themselves, they must be going through the full training program. It takes hours of boring drills, sweat and serious effort to be able to sucessuly defend yourself to any sort of reliable degree. It's not possible to do anything more than hope to stimulate an intrest in the arts in a 2 hour seminar, or a series of 1 hour classes for 6 weeks. At least, they will learn a few things, that they don't possibly hope to appy under any real pressure, but still, they won't be able to apply any of it, except the grossest of moves.

It does nothing to prepare them for an encounter, unless that encounter happens within a few days, or maybe a week or two of the last class. If they really want to accomplish something worth wile, the best course is to follow the Kung Fu program from step one, to at least the completion of the 3rd level (That's when I do the free sparring). Anything short of that is pointless except as a marketing tool for me.

[Black Jack]

I would tailor mine as a workplace to start their learning.

1. I would have a booth setup at the seminar with information from community education centers, local and national victim assistance groups, local firearm training facilities, police department offered civilan courses, first rate martial art/self defense schools.

2. On this line of thinking I would also have available a list of books on personal safety, crime prevention and stalking easily purchased from Amazon that would include such titles as:

The Truth About Self Defense-Massad Ayoob
Gift of Fear- Gavin de Becker
The Women, The Plan, The Gun- Gila May Hayes
Her Witts About Her- Denise Caignon

3. I would also have a small display table which showcases a few self defense items first hand so they can get a look at what kind of tools are offered in the field. Aerosol Spray, Taser, Kubotan, Folder, Firearm (rubber training model), etc.

4. The seminar would focus on prevention, evasion and assertion skills backed by actuarial data on crime followed by simple, effective and easy to remeber strikes and their vulnerable target areas done both standing up and on the ground, after some practice hitting on the target pads, it would then go on to full contact adrenal stress scenrios, using the mugger suit, so the women could experiance the psychological/physical effects of woofing and an attacks following adrenaline dump.

5. Next would be a general overview on weapons and their importance. Looking at both pro and con. With a class focus on a kubotan/yawara style fist stick which if possible with funds would be provided to each class member with purchase of the seminar. Basic striking techniques would be shown with the kubotan, carrying principles, weapon retention.

(I am a huge fan of fist sticks)

Then followed by a section on improvised weapon principles, keys, pens, hairspray, rattail combs, credit card, etc, more in the vain of creative awakening than physical training.

This is a rough draft of course-

For those that are interested my strikes would include some ww2 style methods-

* Hammer Fist
* Cupped Hand Blow
* Tiger Claw & Rake
* Chin Jab
* Elbow Stikes
* Knees
* Stomps
* Shin Kick/Rake
* Eye Gouge
* Ripping Grabs-Ear, Lips, Testicles, Fingers
* Biting
* Basic Cross-Buttock Sweep

Fouling Tactics like screaming in the ear, set-positions, etc.

Just thoughts

[Watchman]

I would say that Black Jack's #4 suggestion is pretty close to the mark on offering something of real value.

The biggest problem I see with many workshops of this nature (along with most of the answers on this thread) is the perpetuation of common myths associated with these issues.

I would suggest anyone interested in specifically teaching women's self-protection go out and actually educate themselves on the issues involved. Most domestic violence shelters or victim advocacy agencies offer free volunteer training for the asking.

Most of the answers on this thread would only really apply to what is termed "stranger assaults". According to the Department of Justice more than 80% of all known sexual assaults against women are perpetrated by someone the victim already has an established relationship with (ie. family member, co-worker, aquaintance, romantic partner, etc.). All the "awareness" coaching about avoiding dark places and carrying your keys in your hands when you go out to your car only addresses a very small factor in the whole equation.

Effective women's self-protection training should begin and end with offering tools on how they can manage interpersonal communication with men, more specifically how they can recognize and acknowledge abusive personality traits. If they can spot when men are attempting to manipulate them into compromising positions they can stop the assault before it ever fully develops. With that principle in mind, most of the physical training really becomes an empowering device that supports the psychological training - rather than the end-all-be-all of the program.

Perpetrators go through a great deal of planning and set-up in order to get what they want, which means there are plenty of warning signs to be seen if only they are acknowledged for what they are. Gavin DeBecker's work is the best primer on this subject. After reading it you should sit down with a licensed family therapist who specialized in treating sex assault trauma, or sit in on victim's support group sessions.

One thing that is very important to realize when conducting courses of this nature is that in any group of women particpating in a "self-defense" class will statistically have around a full 25% that have experienced some form of assault in the past. Your material needs to address their healing process and offer solutions for them to process their trauma. It's a big responsibility. I have had students dip into full-blown flash backs in the middle of classes before where they were re-living the assault. You have to be prepared for things like that.

"As for Women's self defense, I KNOW in order to make it work, comercially, I'd have to be instilling a level of false confidance. I'd be teaching a fantasy."

I disagree. With the proper amount of research and understanding you can arm your course participants with an array of effective tools that address reality rather than myths.

[Knifefighter]

Since the majority of assaults happen at the hands of acquaintances (see Watchman's great post), awareness and assertiveness training is a must. Use of these skills can prevent many assaults and can be taught in just a few hours. After that, a full course of relationship skills should be taught. Unfortunately, many people aren't really interested in this.

Against a physical attack, I believe knife skills are a woman's best bet. A woman who carries and knows how to use a small tactical folder is a match for just about any man, or even a group of men. One or two folders can be carried at almost all times, are easily concealed, are easy to deploy, and can be taught in a relatively short time. A four hour class can effectively teach how to deploy and use the blade, how to retain it, when to use it to de-escalate a situation, and how to bring it into play without the attacker being aware.

[[Censored]]

People ignore calls for help...but everyone reacts to FIRE.

That sounds cute but I don't think it's true. Is that your own personal experience?

[Black Jack]

Watchman- thanks for the really good post. My idea for this topic was not really that I would run one but to just get people here to start playing around with the what-if and what their what-if would be.;)

Knifefighter- Good post. Tactical folders are a great self defense tool. My lady actually carries a tactical spyderco on here person. To her its not about intricate kali blade methodology but distraction techniques. Someone from behind grabs her around the throat lets say in her car and she can hopefully deploy the folder and cut down his forearm to help facilitate her escape.

Imagine how most people react to paper cuts. Kinda a enlarged concept.

That and their are other reasons to carry a knife on one's person. Lets say you are in a car wreck and your seatbelt is jammed, you need to get out fast, using your knife you can cut through the caught up seat-belt.

[Royal Dragon]

"As for Women's self defense, I KNOW in order to make it work, comercially, I'd have to be instilling a level of false confidance. I'd be teaching a fantasy."

I disagree. With the proper amount of research and understanding you can arm your course participants with an array of effective tools that address reality rather than myths.

Reply]
See, here's my problem with that, no matter WHAT you teach them, no matter how good it is, without "On Going" reinforcement, they won't retain anything usefull under fire. Learning is done through repetiton. You can't just expose women to a bunch of skills, work them for a few hours, and expect those skills to be functional during a crunch.

I like what Black Jack said, and I like the idea of going to women's shelters and psycologists to really learn what goes on during the most comon assaults. That being said, "IF" I were to do it, I would have to make it a perminant, On Going course that teaches, developes and maintains the skills they are learning, not just a 6 week course or 6 hour seminar that barely introduces them to skills they have no prayer of useing in such a short time.

[Watchman]

Black Jack,

I didn't mean to seem like I was singling you out with my post - I used the singular terms to refer to anyone who happened to be reading.


After that, a full course of relationship skills should be taught. Unfortunately, many people aren't really interested in this.

Knifefighter is right on about the relationship management aspect of women's self-protection.

I agree that many people aren't generally interested in that to begin with, however if you use other material as a primer that dramatically demonstrates how important learning to manage relationships and interpersonal communication is you'd be surprised to see how many folks work to aquire those skills.

One way that I have found is in using actual transcripts from sex offender treatment programs that dramatically show how the perps use their manipulative behavior and abusive tactics to maneuver their victims into the assault. Once you point it out, women start to see where they deal with similar behavior in a number of ways in their daily lives.

If you can convince folks that their daily lives will improve as a result of applying what you are teaching, they are more apt to work on retaining it and improving on it..........hopefully.

[Watchman]

RD,

We can go 'round-n'-'round on this for a while. I would agree that, comparitively speaking, an on-going course is more "effective" in the long run. However, if this on-going course is solely physical in nature it doesn't really address the specific issues that I feel are much more important. In that case an ongoing course is worthless.

With the right foundation and outlook, you would be amazed at what you can accomplish for people in a short amount of time - and what they are able to retain.


You can't just expose women to a bunch of skills, work them for a few hours, and expect those skills to be functional during a crunch.

A lot of that depends on how you're approaching the workshop format, the skills you're teaching, and what you are using to emphasize them with.

[GLW]

The thing about FIRE instead of HELP...NOT my own idea.

That and much of what I posted comes from some of the foremost experts in the field.

Wish I could remember the guy's anme but he had a VERY good show on PBS about personal protection - not ONE minute was on the HOW of dealing with a physical confrontation.

It was all about concepts and the thngs known from analyzing assaults and rapes from Police files throughout the country...

One of the interesting statistics...

Let's say a person pulls a gun on you....

If you take off running the opposite way...with or without throwing your wallet or purse...what is the chance that the assailant will fire the gun - say 50%....

Now, if he fires, what is the chance that you will be hit - say 50%...

And if hit, what is the chance that you will be hurt so badly that you will not be able to get away - say 50%...

0.5*0.5*0.5 = 12.5% chance that you will NOT get away and really be hurt.

Now, from this guys work and the actual police statistics at the time..and this was about 6 or 7 years ago, the ACTUAL statistic was 2%. Meaning that 98% of the time, people who did the unexpected and took off running actually got away with it.

The big issue is denying the attacker privacy. for example, car pulls up, gun, and they say get in. If you take off running, you have a very high chance of getting away. The statistic is equally high that if you get in the car, you will be killed... Those are the statistics.

[Black Jack]

Watchman- I did not think you were bro. No prob. I enjoyed your post because that is the type of good info I am looking for.

It's important to hear from people who actually do these things on a consistent basis. It helps reinforce certain ideas and beliefs.

Cheers,

[Royal Dragon]

Watchman,
Yeah, you are right, we can go on and on about this. I have been teaching for a long time now, and I have tried a number of formats. The one I found the most sucsessful for teaching both martial arts, and anyhting really, is to give them a little, make them concetraite on that, and give a little more. To pass on any sort of workable skills and knowledge takes time, effort and repetition. These are something you don't have the resources for in a seminar, or short course type of format. In a short format like this, it is best to stick to the most simplistic basics as THAT is what thye will remember when it all goes down, IF they are lucky. However, if thier attacker did a semester of wreasling in Highschool or college, they will have far mor time and reinforcment in their arsenal than our "Women's Self Defense" course student. Also, an attacker is going into an attack with a much higher level of comfort in the area's of violence and physical confrontation. Many of the Women that go to these things have absolutely NO clue.

Terri was the victem of a Stalker. In her case, she had been closely associated with a "Biker club", and grew up in a really bad neighbor hood. Her brother was a rather prominat figure in the local street gang as well (He's in Jail doing life BTW). When "Stalker boy" attacker her, she stabbed his a$$. She was no stranger to violence. When we were talking about learning martial arts, she laugh at me. Her "Street Smarts" told her that stuff was for fools and weaklings. Her opinion was that good fighters go into martial art schools, learn martial arts, and come out no longer able to fight.

The idea of a "Woman's" Self defence class actually made her laugh. It wasn't till we found Saviano's White Tiger Kempo in Addison that she decided to actually take up the arts. Then, it was only in a serious way because she knew anything as stupid as a seminar or half baked 6 week course was assinine and would amout to nothing but a big waste of time, no matter WHAT they taught. Only fully imersing herself in a full training course would do her any good, and then ONLY from a good proven, competitve, reality based teacher.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by [Censored]
People ignore calls for help...but everyone reacts to FIRE.

That sounds cute but I don't think it's true. Is that your own personal experience?

dunno if he has any stats on that, but IME, it holds true also. When you yell "FIRE!", people think about getting themselves out of danger. When you yell "HELP!" people have less of a positive reaction, as they aren't interested in putting themselves in a situation where they may be hurt or killed for the sake of someone they don't know.

[Watchman]

RD,

Knifefighter summed up in one sentence what it took an entire post for me to convey, so here it is again:


Since the majority of assaults happen at the hands of acquaintances, awareness and assertiveness training is a must. Use of these skills can prevent many assaults and can be taught in just a few hours.

I think you're still hung up on preparing someone against the whole stranger assault myth (defending against some 250lb gorilla that attacks you in a lonely, dark parking lot).

Using your story above, with a few hours of training in some of the stuff I have already mentioned, "Terri" may very well have been able to prevent that particular assault ever happening by knowing how to manage individuals with manipulative and abusive behavior and never allowing the relationship to progress as far as it did.

Of course, that is just speculation, but I'm trying to point at something I think you may not be seeing here.

The Pre-Assault Indicators began when she first met the individual who began stalking her. The end result happened after a period of built up interactions with her attacker.

Gavin DeBecker manages to prevent incidents of violence against entire organizations through "half-baked seminars" and consulting. The magic is in the material.

[Black Jack]

The thing I don't like about DeBecker is that he is anti-gun. His work is excellent. It just feels like when I am pimping his stuff that I am also pimping something I don't know if I am 100%comfortable with.

You are right though, and that is why I have mentioned him here and in the past. His work is very good.

btw- I am a believer in that a person can pick up basic skills and principles in a short period of time. IMHO some people confuse a set style and what goes along with learning that traditional set style with self defense/awareness training which can often be a different animal alltogether.

[Ryu]

Because I actually do teach this now, the main things that have to be taught are:

Environmental and situational awareness
Criminal mindset, and what predators look for in victims
Predator/prey roles and reversals.
De-escalation stances, tactics, and semantics.
Pre-emptive strike tools such as:
1. palm strike
2. eye jab
3. web hand strike to throat
4. eye rake
5. elbow
6. headbutt
7. hammerfist (all used from the non-telegraphic de-escalation stance)
concepts of offensive groundfighting including nuclear tactics like eye gouging, biting, plus much emphasis on escapes, reversals, and how to impliment nuclear tactics with sound grappling skill.
How to deal with the adrenaline dump, and how it effects your gross motor skills vs. your fine motor skills.
And finally training with scenario drills that include full contact scenarios against a resistent "bad guy"
All tactics and tools above should be able to be used in these full contact scenarios to give women the experience of fighting off a resistent attacker who is usually bigger and stronger. Avoid the lage 5 foot heads worn by some Women's Self Defense courses.
Instead use a tightly fitting (and protective) headgear with plexy glass face guards, or sturdy goggles. This gives a more realistic target to hit, and presents a more realistic adrenaline response than such a huge and often times "humerous" giant head.

I posted an anectdote about the power women really have in self-defense, and especially training properly with first strikes, nuclear tactics, resistent opponents, etc. I'll find it.

Ryu

[Ryu]

Here it is. From another forum.

A word on palm strikes....


I was giving a free self-defense lesson to a girlfriend of mine. Most of what we covered was situational awareness, de-escalation stances, pre-emptive strikes, and contact scenario drills.... She learned the eye jab, the palm heel, the knee to the thigh, and the web hand strike to the throat....

Now about the "power" of a surprise palm heel...

This girl is Chinese, 5 feet 3 inches tall, and weighs about 100 pounds soaking wet. She's never hit anyone before, etc...

After working her up to a reasonable level of proper mechanics, non-telegraphing the pre-emptive hit, etc., we began the contact scenarios. I put on headgear and durable goggles. My face was concealed behind the protective gear.

We worked her strikes with power through different scenarios. Each shot rocked me LOL, but what was beautiful was her true surprise hit.

Obviously during scenario drilling you know as the 'bad guy' you'll be getting hit. I'm always able to mentally prepare myself for the onslaught by the "victim." That way the surprise and shock isn't too bad........

Well......

On our second to last scenario drill, I came up to her, casually asked her if she had some money. When she replied she didn't, and had to be on her way, I crowded her. I became more aggressive, a little intimidating. She put her palms up in an almost "submissive" de-escalation stance. She said she had none, and wanted to be left alone. She didn't want any trouble.
I (playing the bad guy ) shouted a profanity at her, told her that I wanted some goddamm mon....
.................... She launched an amazing rear palm strike just seconds before I was expecting it (And I was SUPPOSED to be the guy who gets hit! )

When it hit my face, my whole head rocked back. I could barely manage a "glaaaah!" as she charged in with three more palms, a knee to my thigh, and high tailing it he hell out of there....

This little 100 pound, 5'3 girl nearly floored me for real! I'm about 175, 5'8, solid muscle, and have been doing JKD and grappling half my life! And THAT surprise hit nearly floored me. I didn't even know what hit me.

There is so much to be said for a pre-emptive strike... you can take out just about anyone if you know what you're doing.
Ryan Hall is dead on in just about everything he has said on the subject.

Ryu

Hope that helps,
and Watchman, if you see this, send me an email! :)

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmmm, not not caught up on the stranger attacking. I have known a good number of women who have been abused (Terri being the only one with enough moxi to stabb her attacker and fight back). in ALL cases, it was a boyfreind. There are deeper issues going on here. Many of them know full well the guy thye are with is dangrous, but for some reason they don't leave him. Thye become so unbelveably submissive with them it's downright scarrry. I know this one girl, her liveing boyfreind put a knife to her throat, and the next day she was making up with him. The same girl had been so brutalised by her last boyfreind that she needed reconstructive surgery on her jaw, and now has false teeth at 33. There are more women out there like this than you think. It takes time for them to comearound.

Since the majority of assaults happen at the hands of acquaintances, awareness and assertiveness training is a must. Use of these skills can prevent many assaults and can be taught in just a few hours.

Reply]
It may be able to be taught in a few hours, but like I said, humans learn through repetiton, and an on going course is going to be nessasary for them to "Retain" what they have learned for any length of time.

Many women go into some sort of "Delusional fog" when they are with a guy they are physically attacted to (I have seen it time and time again). They become totally blind to who and what the guy is. I mean, guys in prison get married to girls they have never met who write them from the outside wile they are incarserated. If your talking dealling with someone who is in an abusive cycle, yes they might get "Something" out of a seminar, but it's going to be a long drawn out, on going process of continual reinforcement before they can break the mindset that is causeing their destructive attraction to complete *******s. It's almost like wheening a drug addict off of drugs. I'm not saying you won't help a certain percentage of women with a short seminar platform, but at the very least your going to have to have some sort of self study system in place so they can continually review on thier own (A manual, or video etc...)

As for the girl who floored her boyfeind, THAT was a lucky shot. He wasn't in the leasty bit prepared for4 any kind of confrontation. If you put the same two in a REAL combative situation where he wanted to really rob her, and didn't care how bad he hurt her, she would have been busted up robbed, and left to die.

I don't mean to offend, but most women are Fragile, Giggly and naturally submissive. Even when you "Try" to teach them this stuff, they just don't get it. They act like they do, and then go right ot and meet a gy that meets every warning in the system, adn they will start dateing him, because he "Seems" like a nice guy. Then, when he starts to become abusive, they say he "turned on me" and could not see it comming. Infact, this may be true. Abusive types are often very nice guys for a long time, till thye become settled in the relationship. The abusiveness slowly comes out sort of like the same way a Cult slowly brainwashes a victem wihtout them realising it. It's the old

"Drop a lobster in a boiling pot, and it will jump out, put him in a cold pot, and slowly turn up the heat, and he will just sit there and cook to death."

This is why I don't believe in the Seminar or 6 week course deal. Only an ongoing program of continual reinforcement of all skills and knowledge taught, is sufficiently effective to rely apon. Anything less than that is delusional. The only way a 6 week course would work would be in a military setting where you are learning all day, 5-6 days a week for 6 or more weeks, Even then, I think the Military basic training is 12 weeks (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Yes, you can teach them quite a bit in the short course or seminar setting, it's getting them to RETAIN someting usefull and USEABLE over the long hual, long after the course is over, that your not going to be able to do. This means when they need it, it won't be there anymore because they forgot it, or they are trying to think, to recall what they learned, and what to do, and they will lose the window of opertunity.

[Knifefighter]

Women who have a history of abusive relationships and continue to be involved with abusive men were usaully abused as children. Self-defense classes will not help them- only therapy will.

Emotionally healthy women can benefit greatly from a well-designed SD seminar.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ryu
Here it is. From another forum.

A word on palm strikes....


I was giving a free self-defense lesson to a girlfriend of mine. Most of what we covered was situational awareness, de-escalation stances, pre-emptive strikes, and contact scenario drills.... She learned the eye jab, the palm heel, the knee to the thigh, and the web hand strike to the throat....

Now about the "power" of a surprise palm heel...

This girl is Chinese, 5 feet 3 inches tall, and weighs about 100 pounds soaking wet. She's never hit anyone before, etc...

After working her up to a reasonable level of proper mechanics, non-telegraphing the pre-emptive hit, etc., we began the contact scenarios. I put on headgear and durable goggles. My face was concealed behind the protective gear.

We worked her strikes with power through different scenarios. Each shot rocked me LOL, but what was beautiful was her true surprise hit.

Obviously during scenario drilling you know as the 'bad guy' you'll be getting hit. I'm always able to mentally prepare myself for the onslaught by the "victim." That way the surprise and shock isn't too bad........

Well......

On our second to last scenario drill, I came up to her, casually asked her if she had some money. When she replied she didn't, and had to be on her way, I crowded her. I became more aggressive, a little intimidating. She put her palms up in an almost "submissive" de-escalation stance. She said she had none, and wanted to be left alone. She didn't want any trouble.
I (playing the bad guy ) shouted a profanity at her, told her that I wanted some goddamm mon....
.................... She launched an amazing rear palm strike just seconds before I was expecting it (And I was SUPPOSED to be the guy who gets hit! )

When it hit my face, my whole head rocked back. I could barely manage a "glaaaah!" as she charged in with three more palms, a knee to my thigh, and high tailing it he hell out of there....

This little 100 pound, 5'3 girl nearly floored me for real! I'm about 175, 5'8, solid muscle, and have been doing JKD and grappling half my life! And THAT surprise hit nearly floored me. I didn't even know what hit me.

There is so much to be said for a pre-emptive strike... you can take out just about anyone if you know what you're doing.
Ryan Hall is dead on in just about everything he has said on the subject.

Ryu


Nice.

[[Censored]]

dunno if he has any stats on that, but IME, it holds true also. When you yell "FIRE!", people think about getting themselves out of danger. When you yell "HELP!" people have less of a positive reaction, as they aren't interested in putting themselves in a situation where they may be hurt or killed for the sake of someone they don't know.

So, do most people run away from dangerous fires, or TOWARDS them? LOL, don't answer that. :D

[Ryu]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Nice.


I just thank God I had my headgear on! :D

Ryu

[Royal Dragon]

So, do most people run away from dangerous fires, or TOWARDS them? LOL, don't answer that

Reply]
They run towards them............Fires are cool. Infact, a local school just bought out a number of homes on the outer edge of thier property. They wanted to demolish them to make room for the new wing, so they had the fire Dept burn them for training. It drew a crowd of people from miles around.

[[Censored]]

They run towards them............Fires are cool.

So perhaps instead of yelling "FIRE" when in danger, they should yell "MATRIX RELOADED"?

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Women who have a history of abusive relationships and continue to be involved with abusive men were usaully abused as children. Self-defense classes will not help them- only therapy will.

Emotionally healthy women can benefit greatly from a well-designed SD seminar.

Knifefighter is correct.

One note to add, while self-defense classes will not specifically help women with a history of participating in abusive relationships as far as physical self-protection goes, the classes CAN help as a form of therapy.

This aspect requires some coordination on the part of the instructor with the participants' therapist/counseling agency so the proper mind-set is being reinforced throughout. We have a referral program set up with two counseling agencies for just this purpose.

I didn't mention it before, but I wholeheartedly agree with your comments regarding women and tactical knife fighting. This is an avenue I have been doing additional study and research on.

[rogue]

The few SD seminars that I've audited taught techniques, supposedly mindset and other things which were nonsense. Let's face the fact most people aren't going to remember techniques when under the gun without constant drilling. My wife without any training fended off a would be rapists, and she's also ruined the day of a LIRR commuter groper. She followed the rules below without knowing them.

The best I've yet to see that could be taught in a seminar is from Sanford Strong

1. React Immediately - your best chance to escape violence and minimize injury is in the first few seconds.

2. Resist - your only alternative is to submit; both choices are lousy, but resisting gives you the best chance.

3. Crime Scene #2 - always more isolated then the initial point of contact, and always worse for you.




A friend of mine used to teach for the city a SD course for abused women. The harderst part was finding the trigger for them to fight back. For some he never found it for others it was yelling the same abusive phrases at them that their husbands did. More than a few hubbies got a surprise when they used those against their wife.

4. Never, never give up - your attitude can keep you alive when you're badly injured.

[Royal Dragon]

I didn't mention it before, but I wholeheartedly agree with your comments regarding women and tactical knife fighting. This is an avenue I have been doing additional study and research on.

Reply]
You know, bsaed on hearing Terri's recount of her experiance, I truly believe that cheap folder saved her life that night. I whole heartedly agree with the tactical knife fighting for women. It's probably better than a short Woman's self defence course any day.

[norther practitioner]

Good post rogue...
I think some exposure is better than none though.... the only problem I always see is overconfidance...which has been brought up already. The practicle knife stuff would be good too, just as long as they can get it out of there purse :p . All in all I think it is better to have more people a little trained than not at all.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
The practicle knife stuff would be good too, just as long as they can get it out of there purse

If a person has been trained correctly, the knife will not be in her purse.

[No_Know]

Thanks. I'll think about that seminar, Black Jack.

[norther practitioner]

If a person has been trained correctly, the knife will not be in her purse.

I was being sarcastic with the purse remark.... but in all honesty, where would they keep it?

[Black Jack]

Tactical folders have a clip which allows easy access and carry, on a belt, pants or jacket pocket, I have even seen a brastrap, anywhere you can reach without hassle.

[Shaolin-Do]

Do I even have to say it?
:rolleyes:

[rogue]

You have to take some care where you clip your knife. In my experience you want to make sure your knife is clipped to something that won't move with the draw. In other words a belt may move up in the direction you're trying to unclip your blade. I've also had this problem with drawing from the inside pocket of some of my jackets. Best place to me is still on the waste band or pocket of the pants.

[norther practitioner]

I'm just saying, that with a lot of woman I know, there pants pockets are fairly non-functional, the wasteband would be ok, but it might block the view that the new lowriders are providing...lol... and I can't think of too many other options if they are into the tighter clothing...
I used to carry a blade on me when I lived in New York, I have to agree with the belt thing... the pocket and waste band are better. I also liked it in my inside jacket pocket. Shaolin-do.... were you actually going to say something?

[Royal Dragon]

See, with Terri, she's kind of the Ex Biker chick type, so a big folder attached to her waistband is part of the look she often goes for. She even has this "Harley Davidson" folder in the black Harley sheath and everything.

[Knifefighter]

Knife carry should be part of a complete "system" of unobtrusive carry and easy deployment. The knife should be readily available in the various situations in which a woman might be attacked. Ideally, there is more than one blade available as part of the system. There are a variety of ways and types of folders to accomplish this. With the right approach, the woman should almost always have easy access to the blade without other people ever noticing that she is carrying.

Clipping is OK, but is not practical for many women and is best used only during those times in which a more effective method of deployment is not available.

The ideal carry system should be customized around each woman's lifestyle and preferences.

[hongkong fuey]

for most of you have good answers, but answer this one for me . Your a woman about 35 yrs 135lbs mother of 2 divorced and you are being stalked by 250lbs ex golden glove boxer with plenty of street fighting skills, also has a violent passed serving two terms for battery and rape and continues to get away with it . put yourself in this womans scenerio and let the answers roar.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by hongkong fuey
for most of you have good answers, but answer this one for me . Your a woman about 35 yrs 135lbs mother of 2 divorced and you are being stalked by 250lbs ex golden glove boxer with plenty of street fighting skills, also has a violent passed serving two terms for battery and rape and continues to get away with it . put yourself in this womans scenerio and let the answers roar.

She needs two things- documentation and surprise.

Surprise in the form of him not knowing or being ready for her to fight back with firearms or bladed weapons if a physical attack occurs.

Documentation in the form of police reports, restraining orders, etc. Every contact he initiates should be documented with a police report. This will help keep her out of legal trouble by proving a history of harrassment and will show that she has tried to stop him.

[Royal Dragon]

Knifefighter,
Yes, absoloutely. Infact when Terri was being stakled by her ex, the very fact that we called the cops on him every time we saw him kept him at bay. He was the type that slowly worked up his courage. Getting locked up for showing up at th house wiht a gun for instance reduced him to harasng phone calls for about 3 weeks. Of course he would then start all over agin wiht the drive by's, then parking around the block and jumping fences to creep around in the yard, looking in our windows and vadalising cars we stoped even trying to buy new tires, and went to crappy used ones he got us so many times 8 complete sets on my car alone.

This allways escalated to yelling at us or driving by and shooting in the air, sometimes from inside the back yard close to the windows. He'd then scamper off as fast as possible before we could see who it was. We finnaly just started telling the cops we actually saw him even though we didn't, and he'd get arested and go back to simple phone harassment for a few weeks. Somehow, he always beat it in court. Usually by fabricateing withness to lie and say they were together in another part of town. Still, I belive the arests kept him from building a deadly level of "Courage".

We had some weird break ins too. One was into my car, where documentation on my daughter, (School records, her "Safety ID" and pctures of her and her mom) just apppeared on my front seat (Nothing taken though). This was after a breaking to the house 2-3 weeks prior where we found nothing missing. I never thought to look at that stuff though, and there is no other explanation as to how it got from my file box, and my daughter's room to the front seat of my car.

Anyway, docuemting everything may not nessasarily work 100%, but it will often "limit" the agressor's level of engagement. However, there is also the kill'em, bury the body and say nothing aproach. This woud prevent 3 years of misery, and losing jobs because of having to take off of work for court dates 6 times a month for months at a time, because you have 6 frikin court cases against a guy at one time.

[rogue]

Never ever count on restraining orders or calling the cops to keep someone at bay. What the docs do for you is if you use violence of action against the aggressor you can at least show it was justified.

[No_Know]

The police being informed to establish the situation as credible. Get a digital camera to snap images of hem in public places or near you throughout the day. Even catching a shadow from a hidden figure can indicate Someone was there at least for the image. Catalogue the images by date and time. Uploading them to a computer and saving to at least two targets (at least one floppy disk or Compact Disc. Accompany the image shots with notifiing the police~ that it happened again. Keep on it because if they arenot too responsive a newspaper reporter or television host(ess) or station person could use the correlation of calls to the Police to inform them of your concern(s) and the images that show specifically that the person was close enough to be caught in the image. This might help if there is a restraining order.

I recommend three micro recorders one in the purse (mostly for face to face type situation even if he yells might be something to fight against him in court or with the police~). One (at least) in the house-type-place (perhaps near the telephone (toss-up between bedroom or most accessable downstairs)). This is to try recording threats (put part where sound goes in near the part of telephone you would put your ear to hear. And one on the car.

Carry an envelope opener (even the kind that you run alog the top and has plastic for safty--it has a thick needle like part (dull plastic) and could be bennt or precut from the inside halfway through so that it can be broken off or bent more easily to expose the blade part.

Carry mail with you in the car and your purse and actuallt use the envelope openers to open your mail. Have at least threeHouse-place (central location within house-type-place, at least), in your purse or hand bag or briefcase..., and in the car.

Check around your car towards the car and immediate area. Look for shadows without visible solids, damage to your car (for signs of entry at least--trunk. Flashlight to look in backseat at night.

There can be more, percautions and the such. Private message me, E-mail me... if you'd like more but away from the public board-ish