Kali Illustrimo Sparring by Master Floro

[brassmonkey]

Here's a really cool clip of Kali Illustrisimo by Raymond Floro sparring against a gentleman named Radak. Radak at the time was a level 1 Instructor under Vanak. Radak's experience is noted to show he isnt a noob at stickfighting however I don't believe this is a comparison of the 2 different Arts as Floro is a Master of his system while Radak was not at the highest levels of his art ranking wise compared to guys like Vunak and Inosanto. Without further wait:

http://www.jenbjj.com/floro_sefcik2.wmv

[brassmonkey]

Here's some knife sparring of Mr. Floro:

www.jenbjj.com/floro1.wmv

[Edmund]

Reminds me quite a bit of sabre fencing though I guess with a shorter weapon.

[brassmonkey]

That's a great observation as I've read Mr. Floro had a background in fencing b4 learning Kali. Mr. Floro has posted about his fencing influence on mma.tv on the subsection "Moreira, Roy, Jen" if anyone wants to read more or ask questions directly for free, sometimes the net is really great like this.

[Edmund]

Thanks Brassmonkey,

I'll take a look.
The knife clip is taking a while to download for
some reason so I'll have to try again later.

[brassmonkey]

Title should be "Illustrisimo"

[Edmund]

Taken a look at the mma.tv site and found the forum and topic.
Don't think I can contribute much as far as questions are concerned - I know very little about kali. I couldn't really understand the context of some of the arguments there.

Perhaps people on the JKD forum on here could offer something.

I also downloaded the knife clip.
A similar style of action I think. But with the downward pointing
"knife" to take advantage of the downward strikes.

I guess I do have one simple question if you know the answer:
Why do they wear the gloves on both hands?

[Taomonkey]

very very basic. Level one, OK but Instructor?

I'm not trying to bust someones balls, but going just on that video, no other knowledge of these guys their teachers or what they have learned. It looked fun though.

[Oso]

with all due respect, I didn't see anything in the stick sparring to indicate a superlative level of skill.

no flow, just entering in and out of range for single hits.

[Ford Prefect]

Real fighting ain't pretty. I'm sure any of you guys could destroy this kali master with your superior flow and pretty movements.

[Shaolin-Do]

In all honesty, it was a lot of "duck and hit him in the gut" shots... Cant honestly say it was impressive.
Then again, was choppy as hell and looked like sh!t on this computer...

[Liokault]

Well there was more to it than duck and hit in the guts but not much more.

Most of the time when the guy tried to duck and hit in the gut the other guy came over the top and hit the first guy, but it was not clear if the first guy still got his hit in or not.

Also with the short padded things. When the first guy kept getting locked by the second guy....it looked good but I cant help but see the second guy still getting hit. May be it depends on degree of hit, or the differance between getting stabed or just cut?

More than anything it looked to me like every other bit of stick sparring I have ever seen i.e 2 guys standing hitting each other more or less at will.

[Oso]

Real fighting ain't pretty. I'm sure any of you guys could destroy this kali master with your superior flow and pretty movements.

ahem...

didn't say real fighting was pretty.

they were not really fighting.

"flow" is a term I heard spoken by Remy Presas on every occasion I had to be in the same room with him (not many times, 5 or 6, maybe 7). "Flow" was his term to describe the constant motion from one technique to another. I would assume that most other systems of FMA would have similar concepts. I've seen example of two other's (Bobby Tobada's Balintwak sytem and a kali system from a lady in Texas) and they both had the same concept of 'flow'.

[Oso]

since they were obviously only sparring and had plenty of protective gear on, I don't see why they shouldn't have been wanting to train the different striking styles and weaving patterns that they probably practice.



More than anything it looked to me like every other bit of stick sparring I have ever seen i.e 2 guys standing hitting each other more or less at will.

I agree. I think they should have taken the padding off and gone about it about 1/2 as fast as they were and tried to work some real skills and techniques.

Pads tend to make people go into 'wrestlemania' mode and just bash about not really doing what they train.

I like to go back and forth: no pads, moderate contact and try to make some stuff work. Then put the pads and prot gear on and go at it but still try to make the same stuff work.

[KenWingJitsu]

You people are pathetic.

Lets see your clips of you sparring. Come on...where are they?
Thats what i thought........and if you do post clips, please refrain from wearing pajamas. thanks

KWJ

[norther practitioner]

Honestly, chill out...
noone said they sucked.....Just honest critisisms, maybe a bit harsher, as they are written, not said. It looked ok to me, I've seen some stuff with short sticks that looked better in a clip, but that isn't saying too much.

[Oso]

I love fighting in my Winnie-ther-Pooh pajamas.

brassmonkey identified one of the people as a 'master'.

w/o beating that dead horse, I simply commented that I didn't see any superlative skill demonstrated.

brassmonkey may have gotten exactly what he was wanting when he posted the clips.

maybe not. we won't know till he comments.

[Oso]

KWJ, your profile says you know escrima.

can you point out anything in those clips that points to a high enough level of skill to warant the title?

or a high level of skill at all?

[Edmund]

Not sure what high level kali skill is supposed to look like. But that master, Floro, was getting cleanly ahead on those stick strikes. In sabre fencing (I've done some), it is not that easy to score cleanly.

They have a "right of way" rule to make it clearer. Without that, you have to be quite good to get a clean strike ahead of an opponent because the action is generally very quick.

It IS clear to me who was the better person because of my fencing. It may seem to the inexperienced eye that they are both just hitting at the same time.

Not sure what meant by "flowing" but there is not much point doing weaving patterns in fencing. It is not protective at all against anyone with a bit of skill.

Simple movements are what work. One or two moves combined with a step. At the international level of fencing, they aren't doing anything fancy. They are just very good at timing and reading their opponent.

[Oso]

sounds like what you are talking about is just going for the touch.

as far as comparing the two individuals in the clip then yes, one of them was hitting the other more often.

the weaving patterns in the arnis I've done are drilled to teach the changes from one angle of attack to the other.

in the example given one of the players is worse than the other and if the only thing that matters is first touch then I see what is happening. I would still say it would be a better sparring exercise if the initial strike was followed with more techniques.

I've just never heard of any FMA where all you were concerned with in sparring or fighting was the first touch. Or for that matter any fighting style that you didn't follow up with several more techniques after the first one.

Edmund, you asked why the gloves on both hands: If it were arnis/escrima/kali that I have seen it might be because the second hand is used to check and trap and might get struck with the opponents stick. An abinico comes to mind most immediately.

[Edmund]

These two weren't just touching each other though.
They were hitting fairly hard. The person who struck first in an unpadded situation would do a lot of damage.

As I understand it from reading the thread on mma.tv that style of kali doesn't use the second hand much at all.

From what I gathered on that thread, that style seems to emphasize training very simple strikes and footwork hence the lack of the twirling of other kali styles.

[Oso]

well, twirling just for sh its and giggles will definitely get you into trouble quick.

ok, so I don't know anything about the particular FMA in question.

:)

[brassmonkey]

This is my take on the clips, take it as you will as I'm a beginner tai chi student.

"More than anything it looked to me like every other bit of stick sparring I have ever seen i.e 2 guys standing hitting each other more or less at will."

I don't think you watched those clips very closely. Raymond did not take any clean shots.

"Why do they wear the gloves on both hands?"

I'm guessing by the video is because they go after the hands a bit and it would hurt? Dunno

"no flow, just entering in and out of range for single hits."

In tai chi there is a saying something like the body may stop but the mind does not. This to me is flow. Say your opponent stops and your and a advantageous position are you gonna flow out to a lesser position. The opponent stops, I stop, to me this is flow, but we all have different interpretations. What about flow are you looking to get out of it?

"Most of the time when the guy tried to duck and hit in the gut the other guy came over the top and hit the first guy, but it was not clear if the first guy still got his hit in or not."

I saw no ducking per say like boxing ducking where you go completely under but what is wrong with ducking anyways. What I did say was lean backwards by Raymond to get out of the way. I watched these clips several x over and can tell you Raymond didnt get touched and got his shots in.

"Also with the short padded things. When the first guy kept getting locked by the second guy....it looked good but I cant help but see the second guy still getting hit. May be it depends on degree of hit, or the differance between getting stabed or just cut?"

Yes I couldnt tell 100 % I don't believe the opponent could have penetrated much if at all, Raymond had him locked up pretty good, I think that's the advantage of that type of grip tha ttype of locking like a chicken wing.

"More than anything it looked to me like every other bit of stick sparring I have ever seen i.e 2 guys standing hitting each other more or less at will."

Rewatch it Raymond isnt getting hit, that's what makes it so good, I've been to competitive stick fighting contests and most the time the contestants are giving shots back and forth and as someone else pointed out on mma.tv you see alot of people taking shots to give shots.

""Flow" was his term to describe the constant motion from one technique to another. I would assume that most other systems of FMA would have similar concepts"

Ok I think I see where your coming from with "flow" Oso. Lets say I knock out my opponent with a right cross and he's knocked out, do I need to flow into another strike? You get whacked in the head pretty good, its good to restart and try again.

"I don't see why they shouldn't have been wanting to train the different striking styles and weaving patterns that they probably practice"

Actually I think this style practices theyre principles in sparring and do little if no 2 person dances.

"I agree. I think they should have taken the padding off and gone about it about 1/2 as fast as they were and tried to work some real skills and techniques."

Sometimes I have to remind myself to be kind to the blind.

""brassmonkey identified one of the people as a 'master'.

w/o beating that dead horse, I simply commented that I didn't see any superlative skill demonstrated."

Even if Raymond doesnt like or want to be called Master he imo is certainly so high skill that is so rare I call that Master level. In tai chi lore it is said something like Yang Lu Chan had 3 top students in the Army, the practioneer Wu had the highest of Tai Chi skill, neutralizing or yielding skill. If you watch raymond he would rather yield first, while his opponent is fully extended and at most vunerable point attack, similiar to counterpunchers in boxing but the timing is alil different. Then if his opponent isnt attacking he'll use strikes to the hand that could disable or antagonize his opponent into attacking. I don't know about you, but to win through yielding is no easy thing!!! If you don't fight this way let me tell you its very very difficult to get good enough to:

1. match the opponent speed
2. not telegraph your trap
3. have the patience, mindset to yield first
4. timing
5. trajectory knowing it

It will take hundreds if not thousands of hours to pull of what Raymond is doing that is if your lucky enough to find someone who can teach you it.

[Oso]

Ok I think I see where your coming from with "flow" Oso. Lets say I knock out my opponent with a right cross and he's knocked out, do I need to flow into another strike? You get whacked in the head pretty good, its good to restart and try again.

in a fight, no you don't need to but in sparring I would think you would want to practice worst case scenario's and I don't ever think I'm going to finish on the first strike. Even w/ a stick it's not a sure bet. Ever.




Sometimes I have to remind myself to be kind to the blind.


:) I guess I could be offended by that ;)


This is my take on the clips, take it as you will as I'm a beginner tai chi student.

:confused: you seem to speak with authority for a beginner

[Edmund]

I'm guessing by the video is because they go after the hands a bit and it would hurt? Dunno

Sarcasm? I was just asking because they don't use their other hand in the clips.


Sometimes I have to remind myself to be kind to the blind.

That's pretty harsh...
Not everyone here is a kali expert.

No one said they sucked.

[brassmonkey]

Edmund I really wasn't being sarcastic since they were not using regular rattan or hardwood sticks, I'm figuring since head is really not a place you wanna break by chance even if it a stick lesser composite and hands/fingers would be pretty easy to injure also I take into account those were Raymond's 2 favorite spots to hit.

I apologize to whomever I directed the blind comment it was uncalled for. However its so rare I see anything on the net I like and have someone imply the practioneer had no skill I felt was quite insulting to Raymond but if you have different eyes then me I really shouldnt blame you. If I see something I don't like or don't think is very good I just won't comment, well back in my trolling days I would but that's over, most the time I don't understand what people are trying to get across to comment anyhow.

Something I forgot to mention that is of some relevance was since Raymond didnt know the gentleman very well they both agreed to stay at a longer range. This is a good lesson in martial arts practice with people you don't know theyre character to be extremely careful especially if you have a "name" someone could use. This also might figure in to single strikes as the 2nd or 3rd strike might have been close range, most fights go from far, to closer and closer, however like in tai chi push hands once you are had you start over, I do think a pretty good shot to the head would end a fight, who cares it was sparring.

1 more point I forgot to mention, I hate to compare tai chi to what this guy is doing but its the only thing I practice and I hate when I hear other people compare arts to tai chi as I don't they are similiar, I've heard everything from wing chun to hsingi, bagua etc. So I hope this isnt too much of an insult as I know there are few tai chi people who would be respected by practical martial artists. In tai chi classics there is a saying something like "the opponent starts but I arrive first." Raymond on the other board mentioned that this is what he was doing with the hand hitting, the opponent would begin and he would arrive first sorta, they call it stop hitting in jkd circles too.

[Ford Prefect]

Behold the keyboard warrior.

[Skarbromantis]

Originally posted by Edmund
No one said they sucked.

They Suck! :D

[Internal Boxer]

Its all obviously down to the individual what they precieve, for me I would venture that he does have skill as the ability to beat someone to the strike without getting hit themselves is surely the major prerequistes of stick fighting.

For me this is a case of "less is more", while it would be visually entertaining for him to do some really funky techniques, most would agree the simplest techniques always work best, and for me I would rather train the basic aspects, to such a degree that I would not need anything else.

If people want to train a lot of elaborate skills and are able to pull them off then hey good for you, but since I can only manage a couple of hours a night training I would rather reinforce the basic elements of the art rather than the packaging, but thats just my opinion, and if people do not agree thats fine.

I would advise that we do not mistake the essence of the art for the packaging.

Take Kendo, I remeber a story that was relayed to me from a friend, so excuse me if there are any errors about it, but basically I was told in Japan the highest accolades are given to those that have the ability to get in the first hit, this was because the first hit was considered to be a subconsciously prediction when the oponent is going to attack, and this was considered the highest level.

Brass monkey, I think the comparison to moving first and arriving last of Taiji is a fair one, but look mate do not worry what others think as long as you stay true to what you think is important then thats all that matters. :cool:

[Oso]

man.....


so all of a sudden the basics of arnis/kali/escrima are too elaborate?

I don't really want to perpetuate this thread but...

I was at B&N this morning and ran accross this book and spent a while looking through it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804831459/categoricalgeome/104-6508507-3027145


with the usual expected variations, I saw what I would expect to see from good FMA. They discussed 2 man sparring patterns, etc.

it looked good in the book but the video clip did not illustrate the style that BM was saying the guy is a master of, nor any other FMA I'm familiar with.

just one guy who was faster and had a better sense of timing then the other guy.

[Taomonkey]

<<<"Ok I think I see where your coming from with "flow" Oso. Lets say I knock out my opponent with a right cross and he's knocked out, do I need to flow into another strike? You get whacked in the head pretty good, its good to restart and try again">>>

Ok I have to chime in.

Nothing against the guy s in the video they just did not exhibit any style, IMHO.

IN FMA the concept of FLOW is critical, as it should be to any weapon art. One strike does not end until it reaches a piont that another strike may follow, a #1 flows into a #2 for example.
FMA is not like fencing, where after a point contact the combatants retreat and begin again. It is a continious attack, yes we do modify it for sparing, but not much.
There was no technique in the video, except for a few defangs, but what hapens next, nothing, thats just not what I would call FMA.
I'm sure my next comment will offend some but here go's. I would expect someone with chinese weapons background to make comments about flowery twirls and two man dances, because thats what I see in most Wu Shu and chinese weapons forms. But thats not FMA.
The FMA were refined to counter fencing and other Spanish sword play, had the patterns and twirls not been effective, they would be gone, since the masters who used them would have been dead.
We train patterns to develope the concept of flow, it is through the patterns that we find the ability to be infinate (well not quite) in our defense and countering . Its like a jazz or blues musician, you have to learn the scales before you can improvise.
A good FMArtist will exhibit style and technique in his sparring, why, because he practiced it so much.

to the quote I pasted above, no If you knock him out there would be no need to continue to flow. but you better make darn sure you knocked him out, because he has a weapon (stick or knife) you better know the status of that weapon at all times. You do get whacked in the head or hand pretty good in sparing and in training, but in combat if you try to restart you will be dead. We teach our students to continue, even after some pretty good blows (if their really hurt, broken, bleeding badly we stop, we're not barbarians).
Fact is in weapons combat, you are going to get hit, or cut, no avoiding it, unless your opponent is unskilled, which is what I saw in the video's. Someone with some level of skill whacking someone without some.

[Taomonkey]

OK, I watched the knife video again. "Master" Floro? not at the knife, the guy had no footwork at all, he just stayed in one place, until the other guy made a half arsed attempt to attack and then countered. THe last sequence, he (Floro) turned his head away on his counter, the opponents knife was clearly in the area of his armpit and kidneys, a quite leathal target, and Floro didnt even see it. Against a trained knife fighter, he's quite dead.

[Knifefighter]

I couldn't view the clip, so I can't comment on it. I can, however, comment on what real stick fighting is and is not. It is usually not flowery, back and forth flow-type movements. As a rule, it is not pretty. It does not include many of the fancy patterns being taught in many FMA classes. It does involve a lot of grappling.

[Oso]

knifefighter, I agree but wouldn't you say that someone trained in FMA stick/knife would show some movement indicative of their base of training?

I'm not saying that stick/knife fighting is all flowery back and forth movements but from what I've seen (not a great amount but some) the pattern training shows up in the transitions from one strike to the other. Again, no rediculous flourishes just to show that you can redonda

oops, baby possums running amok on campus...........gotta go

[KenWingJitsu]

can you point out anything in those clips that points to a high enough level of skill to warant the title?
Simple; Timing. Minumum exerted energy.

All you people talking about there's no "flow" need to stop watching kung fu movies. Or.....show me one clip of any REAL fight or real match between two stickfighters where there is any kind of a "flow".

For your information, flowery foofy patterns only exist in the imaginations of the people who made them up. When it's time to FIGHT....it looks like that. Although I guess considering the crowd I'm preaching to, the concept of actual FIGHTING may be lost on some...

[Shaolin-Do]

I didnt see much "timing or minimul exerted energy"
I saw them ducking heads while swinging towards the opponents gut.
Then in turn, the other would duck his head in, and take a stab/swing kinda move at the other guys gut.
Why not parrying the others stick away, rounding it off to hit him in the head?
Wait... Im just a kung fu guy talking about flowery movements.
nevermind me.
:o

[KenWingJitsu]

Have you ever parried a guy whos hitting you with a stick?

[Shaolin-Do]

If you parry then he isnt hitting you, his stick is being parried.
And yes, I have 2 sticks in my garage/gym to practice with.They are padded w/foam so you dont need to wear pads. Still hurts a little tho.

[Oso]

wow, I'll go dig Remy Presas up and tell him his method of movement was cr ap.:rolleyes:

ok, I give up, that guy in the video is the best stick fighter I've ever seen and I'm quitting my job and moving to wherever he is.

[Shaolin-Do]

Can I go with you Oso?!?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!?!?!?!!?!
:eek:
!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!

[Taomonkey]

Why yes I have.

The concept of flow is not flowery movements, it is that one strike flows into the next, as milk flows from a glass. Flow is not a dance or exchange of blows. Flow is not the pattern of sinawalli or weapon movement in some kata.

"the concept of actual FIGHTING may be lost on some... "

You may be partially right, but believe me the Masters of FMA are quite familiar with fighting. From defense of their Islands from the Spanish to the Japaneses, From actual street combat, bolo fights and death matches, to numerious tournaments, the old masters know fighting.

If you ever doubt that,,to quote Ernesto Presas..."You can challenge!"

[Shaolin-Do]

"Eschew Obfuscation"
Ive read that about 1000 times now and I still dont get it.
:(

[MasterKiller]

It means avoid being obscure. It's joke.

[Shaolin-Do]

Oh yeah.
Now....
I ... get it....
ha...........................ha.
ha?
:)
beeeeyotches!

[Oso]

SD: Sure, but you'll have to lose that avatar. And it means to 'avoid obscurity'

TM: Do you train with under GM Ernesto Presas? I trained Modern under an instructor of GM Remy Presas here in NC.

[Shaolin-Do]

Actually, I think it is about time for a new avatar.

[Taomonkey]

OSO

Yes, I do train under Ernesto Presas, I have had the honor of being his student for several years.

[Oso]

TM: cool and well met. I was hoping someone with more FMA experience than I would wade into this debate. The arnis was a sideline practice for me for about 6 years. I still work with the striking styles and weaving patterns and 6-count and 10-count drills when I can get with someone that knows them.

[Taomonkey]

MY best advise would be to keep up your basics from the warmups you were taught to striking systems, and sinawallis, tapi tapi.
If you keep the basics the rest is easily remembered.

I have trained since I was 12, strictly FMA and IMA with some tai chi and chi kung thrown in for internal training for seven years now.

6-count is one of my favorites.

Do you have any of Remey's video series, I would be willing to trade

[Oso]

no, I don't but I'm sure I could get them as my sifu has them.

were they titled or numbered? if so let me know which ones you would like, or all, and I could borrow them then make some copies for trade.

I also have some kung fu stick work as well and made a conscious decision to try and follow them, as they are paired with my empty hand forms, so I could (hopefully) gain a better understanding of the kung fu. It's difficult to give up though as I have the greatest respect for fma's stickwork but I'm trying to walk a different path, so to speak.

[rogue]

What are the videos trying to show? Looked pretty typical, lots of non-commited attacks by the level 1. Master Floro was alot faster. Wasn't Dog Brothers.

[KenWingJitsu]

"If you parry then he isnt hitting you, his stick is being parried."

That was not my question. Again...has anyone ever hit you with a stick? And could you parry it? When I say hit I mean HIT. not pretend to to 10 count and 50 count drills......has anyone ever hit you with a stick..for real? The answer is either no, or the answer is yes and you didnt and couldnt parry the stick.

"I still work with the striking styles and weaving patterns and 6-count and 10-count drills when I can get with someone that knows them."

And there lies the answer to your problem.........might I suggest a littel something call sparring? You know...with real contact. Try that instead of srills. I eman tell the guy to HIT you, and you try to HIT him. Let me know how many 10 count drills you can "flow" or pull off.

If you dont "get" my point by now, you never will.
Peace.

[Oso]

kwj, I've trained with the exact same gear on as those guys and hit people and gotten hit, it hurts. but, after a certain point of training we sparred with follow up: 'flowing' from the first hit to the second hit, to the third. we never, ever trained to single hit.

so, I guess I don't 'get' your point but I don't really care if I get 'your' point.

[norther practitioner]

why so negative and sceptical kwj? I've seen stick "sparring" that flowed more, they actually got some blocks and parries in.....
if you parry the stick.... hopefully your not taking a large percentage of the force......

[Edmund]

I think it's the nature of that particular style of Kali. The parrying and followups that you guys are more familiar with are not part of the Illustrimo style.

Hence the sparring would be quite different.

Kenwingjitsu, everyone does spar. It's the nature of any martial arts - there would not be much point without it. But not every style will use the same techniques. Some styles may emphasize parrying more whereas others may use a lot of stop hits.


has anyone ever hit you with a stick..for real? The answer is either no, or the answer is yes and you didnt and couldnt parry the stick.

Why do you think a strike can't be parried?
Is it the stick?

It happens in fencing all the time. Just a matter of knowing what you're doing. If you couldn't, you'd be a pretty useless fencer.

[KenWingJitsu]

lol

I also fenced for a couple of years. I am not talking about 'blocking with the stick'. That's different. Everyone else is talking about 'flowing' and parrying. You're not going to parry a stick being swung at you 100% with your hand. If you are, you're not sparring..........

"Kenwingjitsu, everyone does spar. It's the nature of any martial arts"
Uuum. No,....not everyone spars...thats THE biggest problem with most martial arts. When you spar, 100% full contact, the difference between what you "drill" and what you spar becomes like 7 up - CLear.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Oso
knifefighter, I agree but wouldn't you say that someone trained in FMA stick/knife would show some movement indicative of their base of training?

Absolutely... unfortunately, I can't view Windows format videos so I can't comment on their ability or lack thereof. Is there a QuickTime format of the video?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Taomonkey
The concept of flow is not flowery movements, it is that one strike flows into the next, as milk flows from a glass. Flow is not a dance or exchange of blows. Flow is not the pattern of sinawalli or weapon movement in some kata.

Exactly... One hit (or block, or feint) should set up the next hit (or clinch, or takedown). Along the same lines, a fully committed miss should be followed up by a follow up strike.

[Knifefighter]

I think KWJ is giving a hard time to those who are making judgements, but have never actually fought full contact with real sticks with minimal or no protection against a skilled opponent. BTW, there are more than just a couple of FMA "masters" who fall into this category.

[rogue]

Knifefighter, I've wondered about that. How many FMA "masters" have competed or shown up at the gatherings? What did they think of it?

[Edmund]

You're not going to parry a stick being swung at you 100% with your hand. If you are, you're not sparring..........

I didn't know parrying implied using your bare hand in Kali. In fencing, it is not allowed obviously!

In Wing Chun, we use pairs of small plastic bats to imitate knives so there are no bare handed blocks.

It sounds very difficult to do. I'm having a tough time imagining it.


Uuum. No,....not everyone spars...thats THE biggest problem with most martial arts. When you spar, 100% full contact, the difference between what you "drill" and what you spar becomes like 7 up - CLear.

Most martial arts do sparring. Which martial art doesn't? That would be a very exceptional case. Kali people spar all the time as far as I've seen. I wouldn't go to a school that doesn't.

Do you really mean without ANY protective equipment?

That's pretty dangerous for training. Man, that is tough. The guys in the clips are using protective equipment. A bare stick on your skull is going to at least split the skin. Any decent hit is going to bust some bone. How do they survive it?

[Oso]

knifefighter: I'm attempting to install a file converter to convert the .wmv's to .mov's.

I've gotten the blue screen of death once already though:D

yea, yea, I know...if I was on a mac.....

[Edmund]

Brassmonkey wrote:

Edmund I really wasn't being sarcastic since they were not using regular rattan or hardwood sticks,

Cool. I was just making sure.


I apologize to whomever I directed the blind comment it was uncalled for. However its so rare I see anything on the net I like and have someone imply the practioneer had no skill I felt was quite insulting to Raymond but if you have different eyes then me I really shouldnt blame you.

Most people were pretty polite.

It's difficult to know what to look for though.
It's not a flashy style. I guess you'd consider that a good thing.


I do think a pretty good shot to the head would end a fight, who cares it was sparring.

Agreed. I thought they were landing good shots which should count for something.

[Oso]

knifefighter, I can convert to an .avi (I think) but not to .mov

I think you can configure your quicktime player to play .avi.

if you want I will try to convert and repost as .avi's

[Taomonkey]

Knifefighter, glad we agree, a lot of unintiated people misunderstand what the flow really is.

KenWing.

<That was not my question. Again...has anyone ever hit you with a stick? And could you parry it? When I say hit I mean HIT. not pretend to to 10 count and 50 count drills......has anyone ever hit you with a stick..for real? The answer is either no, or the answer is yes and you didnt and couldnt parry the stick.

And there lies the answer to your problem.........might I suggest a littel something call sparring? You know...with real contact. Try that instead of srills. I eman tell the guy to HIT you, and you try to HIT him. Let me know how many 10 count drills you can "flow" or pull off.

If you dont "get" my point by now, you never will.>

I do get your point and believe it to be quite wrong. I have gone 100%, every strike I swing is a full strike, even in drills. I have taken stick strikes (that I missed) even to my head. I have been bruised and bloodied, I have nearly broken knuckles, had major pop knots, and even broken a finger. I have recieved these things not only in sparring but in drills And it does not take a master to parry. Even with the empty hand. Its called footwork. I move on the angle out of your sticks danger zone and parry at a point close to your hand. Or if I have a stick, as I move I soft block or parry your weapon with mine. Its called defense. These are concepts of the martial arts, and they do work. The best defense is not always a good offense. Drills are not the pinacle of training, but they do have their place. A student has to become familiar with his weapon, so that it can become as normal to him as his own hand. You have to be familiar with strikes comming at you, at different speeds and at different angles. Otherwise, you will take a very hard road in sparring. You build muscle memory and dexterity through the drills. That makes a difference in combat. It allows my mind to move steps ahead of where my body is. My footwork keeps me safe, my angle keeps me safe, yet at the same time they destroy you. I cannot seperate out one aspect of the training that is more important than the other, warm ups, twirls, drills, sinawalli, sparring, grapling, whatever. they all blend to make a skilled and balanced FMArtist. If it didnt work, there would not be so many different FMA Masters, and styles. All different in some aspect or emphasis, but all similiar in other ways. You can tell the families of Presas, Baet, Illustrisimo, Caballes, Sayoc, Suliete, Dagook, Flores, Canoyte, and the hundreds of others, that teh art thier fathers and grandfathers passed to them is crap, the training techniques used for hundreds of years is flawed, and that they should all follow your lead. Or better yet, find you a pinoy and challenge him, tell him hey lets go 100%, I want a full demonstration. Then look for the stars and bright lights then the darkness as you fade from consciousness and possibly from this earth.

[Oso]

sweeeeeet

[Black Jack]

Just because a arnis bloke does not show up at a dog brothers gathering does not discredit him in the least bit. Last I checked no one has the rights down on who invented stick sparring.

I wonder if sometimes people forget that the stick is just a conceptual tool in certain regards.

[Shaolin-Do]

I sleep with a kali stick sized steel rod next to my bed for protection.
:)

Once again, let me re-iterate what I said earlier.
The blokes in the video didnt really impress me too much, and Im not talking about flashiness. I mean no discredit to the practitioners, as this is only personal opinion, but as I said, it looked like a lot of ducking and hitting to the gut, ducking again, little weave, and hit in the gut again.
I have done full contact stick fighting, but they were foam padded. We wore no gear.
and yes, I would say that the parry comes more from the stepping.
Also with the video, it was choppy and looked like crap on this pc, so I may have missed the better points.
SD

[Taomonkey]

I have a pair of steel sticks I mads a few years ago, they are quite thin so its tough to hold on to them, really maakes your grip and strikes strong. Only problem was I went a little to hard with them and hurt my shoulder, I know better now.

[marc_scott]

I think there are really two camps to this, those who look at the videos and say "I see nothing there", and those whom say "I see nothing there and it's great".

I am from the second school of thought. When I look at it I see wonderful, direct, effective, and useful training.

I think a lot of us expect something more, and want something more from a "Master". Take a look at another master of his sport Ray Jones Jr., forgetting his showboating for a second, what makes him so sublime is when an oppoent throws a punch and Roy avoids the punch yet is able to counter with a perfectly timed jab, cross combo. Or yet another master Ray Leonard, same thing.

This is what I see with Ray Floro, someone who has sublime timing and attributes. It is not showy or flashy at all, and I love that. It is done against a resisting opponent, and I love that. He avoids attacks with great economy of motion and counters with probably confrontation ending blows, and yes I love that too.

I have watched these videos at least ten times each I have slowed them down to 1/10th their original speed to try to see exactly what is going on. I can find no fault with what I see. He uses feints, distractions multiple hits, etc. If I had to fight with a knife that is thw way I woudl want to fight. Not slashing at arms or extremities but take out the head. And to do that without even being hit is an even greater accomplishment.

I have no doubt Ray Floro could have used more "flow" and figure eights, but why bother? He accomplised his tasks quickly and efficiently, isn't that what we train for?

**NOTE**

Though not a student of Ray Floro, I am impressed with what he has shown and what he has said on other forums. I do intend to train with him in the near future though when he comes to California in the fall

[Shaolin-Do]

When you are swinging weights, you gotta start low, even if your muscles can handle it.
You have to develop your tendons to be able to handle the extra weight pulling at the end of your strikes.

[rogue]

I think these were more of a home movie rather than a real demo. Floro hardly moved where as the level one was very non-commited and didn't show any economy in his footwork. Floro did look like he could read the level one really well.

When you guys train full contact are what kind of gear are you using and wearing?

[Shaolin-Do]

For stick fighting, no gear. i have padded sticks, they hurt a little, but oh well.
:)
(I dont study and style of stick fighting really, just do it for fun, and 9 times out of 10 when you fight and a weapon is around, its a short stick.)

[KenWingJitsu]

Nice try at trolling there by telling me to go challenge so and so.

The onus is on YOU to prove to me you can parry a stick at full contact. I'm not talking about footwork....because all the pajama cronies were NOT talking about footwork. They were talking about "flowing" with fancy parries. Using footwork is something different entirely.

So.......why don't YOU show us some footage of YOU parrying a fully intentioned strike. Enlighten us.

[Taomonkey]

We use padded sticks or nothing at all

as too marc_scott's comment
<I have watched these videos at least ten times each I have slowed them down to 1/10th their original speed to try to see exactly what is going on. I can find no fault with what I see ..............
I have no doubt Ray Floro could have used more "flow" and figure eights, but why bother? He accomplised his tasks quickly and efficiently, isn't that what we train for?


at 1/10 you should notice where he turns his head away on his last counter, his opponents knife making contact to an unguarded axilliary area (lethal target).
This video was more like fencing, quick single counters, a few defangs, but after each contact there is retreat much like point sparring, where the ref steps in and awards points. Floro is just playing with the guy. Had his opponent had any skill it would have been nice to see some counters, how Floro reacted , I just want to see more. Not to pick apart but to see more. I understand his economy of motion etc. and I like that too.
As to the second part of your post, I think knifefighter, Oso, and myself have described the flow, what it is and what it isnt, you might want to go back and read it.

Look its like this Ray Floro, Is a genuine Master, and is a qualified teacher, and a dangerous martial artist. Its quite easy to pick apart a 1 minute video, find its weaknesses, and incorrectly infer a level of skill based on it. I am guilty of that. The thread quickly changed to other aspects of FMA and I commented on them, mostly what flow is and isnt. I would encourage you to take a few classes before you train with Floro, get in your basics so that you can really learn something.

[KenWingJitsu]

Look its like this Ray Floro, Is a genuine Master, and is a qualified teacher, and a dangerous martial artist. Its quite easy to pick apart a 1 minute video, find its weaknesses, and incorrectly infer a level of skill based on it. I am guilty of that.
Now we're getting somewhere...

[Taomonkey]

KWJ "The onus is on YOU to prove to me you can parry a stick at full contact. I'm not talking about footwork....because all the pajama cronies were NOT talking about footwork. They were talking about "flowing" with fancy parries. Using footwork is something different entirely."

There is no onus, I have nothing to prove. My whole point is that you and I are talking about two different things. You look at "flow" a fancy pretty things, I do not. If in the situation you're describing there is no footwork than somebody is getting hit. Without footwork there is nothing but pain. However do you know what a wing block is, is that fancy? How about a soft block, some might say that is fancy too, but both work. I'm saying that it all works together, block + parry + footwork = safety. If you seperate them out than parry is the weakest legnth, but together they are quite strong.

There is a reason there are the "pretty" "flowery" aspects. Thats my point. FMA is a cultured art, its not just MONGO BASH HEAD.
Better yet, go find a good FMA instructor and ask him why those aspects of the art still exist.

Oh and who are the "pajama cronies"?

[Oso]

knifefighter, I couldn't get any of the freeware I was trying to install to work for me...stupid WMe. sorry.


I hereby declare myself a 'pajama cronie'.

I love it.

Although, the only pj's I spar in are my winnie-ther-pooh one's with the drop out bottom so I can moon my opponent.



:D

[apoweyn]

Good grief. I'm agreeing with all sorts of new people today. Taomonkey's right, in my opinion. Parrying and footwork are definitely different aspects of the same thing. And the footwork is the stronger of the two (if such a thing can be spelled out). Discussing parrying sans footwork in stickfighting is difficult (and potentially pointless).


Stuart B.

[rogue]

Heck ap, parrying without footwork when emtpy handed is difficult (and potentially pointless).

[Shaolin-Do]

Just another thing to point out-
No one ever really said anything about the guys ability.
Just criticized what was shown in the video clip. Im sure he is a talented martial artist with significant ability, but he doesnt really display much in the video clip posted.
Im a clost "pajama cronie".
:eek:

[Taomonkey]

Well I guess its time for the old KFO Group hug and to sing a round of Kum By Ya.
We all agree on something. Darn thats no fun,

[Shaolin-Do]

i think its a first.....
:confused:

[Taomonkey]

hey Ap when did something being pointless really stop us?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
Heck ap, parrying without footwork when emtpy handed is difficult (and potentially pointless).

No question. Good point. Footwork really is the foundation that makes everything else gel.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Taomonkey
hey Ap when did something being pointless really stop us?

Never has, TM. Never has. :)

[Taomonkey]

ANd with that I'm guessing thats the end of this thread

[Oso]

Ap: wuz wondering if you were going to comment on this one...

[Edmund]

Shaolin-do wrote:

Once again, let me re-iterate what I said earlier.
The blokes in the video didnt really impress me too much, and Im not talking about flashiness. I mean no discredit to the practitioners, as this is only personal opinion, but as I said, it looked like a lot of ducking and hitting to the gut, ducking again, little weave, and hit in the gut again.
[snip]
Also with the video, it was choppy and looked like crap on this pc, so I may have missed the better points.


Well you may have missed a little bit. He did hit a few times to the hand and head.

There wasn't much parrying though.

Taomonkey, are there any sparring clips of people doing barehanded parries around?

[Satanachia]

Ignoring the stick one for now, i just watched the knife one. Now i will not profess to be a master or even reasonably good:p but it did bother me.

Anyone with half a brain should know that knife fighting is dangerous and unpredictable, and anyone's who's tried sparring with them knows that *shock* half the time you get stabbed.

Watching the video's it is obvious that one of the guys has a much better sense of distance and much better speed. But there were some things that bothered me. Each thing seems to be just one shot then stops. ie. strike at the head, then just stop fighting.

Analyze the first slow motion bit for a second. First of all, i don't think the first strike connected with the head. I'm being pessemistic here, but i don't think the other guy thought so too. Just as the clip cuts out you can see the second guy's weight shift as he's about to come back in for a backhand stab thing. The first guy is offbalance and if that knife is going anywhere, its going straight into his gut. i put the problem with assuming the first hit will land and incidentally also take all the fight out of the guy. If its just one step sparring or because there's concrete on the ground okay. Whatever you want to call it though, flow, thoughtfullness, whatever, it looks very much like one technique all or nothing, no back up, little intensity, hope that one move will end it.

My last issue is with the strike to head. Its not that its a bad thing, its just that in the last half mainly, he seems to trade off strikes to the head with strikes to the gut/midsection. Now of course, being struck to the head with a knife is going ot make someone literally "freak out", but if i had to choose which i'd be on the recieving end of, i would go for the head instead of the gut every time. I will be bloody and i won't be able to see and i will be panicking:eek: , but i won't be on with life endagering wounds (unless he hit an artery in the neck or something...or managed to drill the knife through my eye:rolleyes: ). but who am i to talk, i've never been in a knife fight, and all things permitting, hope i never will.

If its just a video of sparring. Okay. We all know its unpredictable and never looks good. Though personally i would like to see more intensity, because usually "knife sparring" turns out to be fencing instead of the "real thing" (whatever the hell that is), but if its meant to show how things are done, then....um.....questionable.

Kudos for the video, and the people in it. No doubt they could both kick my butt. And good luck to everyone in the future.

[ARH]

Originally posted by Satanachia
But there were some things that bothered me. Each thing seems to be just one shot then stops. ie. strike at the head, then just stop fighting.

Did it ever occur to all the armchair experts out there that perhapse that was done deliberately in order to focus on a specific range of fighting and training strategies for training purposes?:rolleyes:

You would think it were rocket science judging by the ammount of crap that has appeared on this thread!

[Satanachia]

I believe that would be one step sparring, and as i said, if it is one step sparring or something like it, then its okay, as i said.

[Oso]

ARH, the best point you made was that we DON'T know what their point was. I would have to opine that they were not training specifically for long range but mostly just playing around. It was the word 'master' in combination with the demonstration in the video that seemed disjointed to me.

One step sparring is fine and a good tool for teaching beginners the basics. It is limiting in that you don't ever want to stop at the first step in a real situation. I teach one step drills during the first 6 months of training and then don't ever let my students go back to it.

[ARH]

Since you DON'T know what their point was, despite the fact it should be obvious to anyone who had trained in FMA, do you not think it would be a smarter move not to comment on how good you think or don't think they are untill you find out what is going on?:rolleyes: Isolated sparring has got to be one of the most fundamental training methods around!

I would have thought common sense would have prevented most people here from passing comment on the aledged lack of skill of Raymond, despite the fact he is widely regarded as being one of the top FMA instructors in this country.

I guess that is what you get when you try to disguss FMA in a kung fu forum.

[Black Jack]

I can not see the clip but from what I have read on the scenes discription it sounds like long rang/largo mano work which backs up ARH's top post on this page.

[Oso]

Black Jack, I guess it could be looked at as largo but it didn't look like it was 'largo training'


Since you DON'T know what their point was, despite the fact it should be obvious to anyone who had trained in FMA, do you not think it would be a smarter move not to comment on how good you think or don't think they are untill you find out what is going on?

so if it's so obvious, then enlighten us ignorant folk:rolleyes:

i'm not a master of arnis or even an instructor of arnis but I trained it long enough to recognize decent FMA movement and I didn't see it IN THOSE CLIPS.

I'm not commenting on anyone's real ability...ONLY what is shown in the clips.

I'm not the only one who wasn't impressed. Just the most bored at work:D

[Shaolin-Do]

Dude, we have already said many times, what was represented in the clips in no way demonstrates "a master" level of skill. Im sure his ability far exceeds what is demonstrated in the video, but once again, it IS NOT demonstrated in that video. No parries, no sidesteps, nothing to really avoid attacks. Just hit him in the head, back up, try to get a gut shot, back up... ect....
As oso said, do then, please enlighten us ignorant kung fuers as to what the point really was?

[Shaolin-Do]

Lets fix a quote real quick to make it easy to understand.

but once again , it IS NOT demonstrated in that video

[rogue]

I'm sticking with home movies of a typical stick guy getting to have a master mess around with him. Didn't look like either was very serious.

[Shaolin-Do]

exactly.

[ARH]

Dude, we have already said many times, what was represented in the clips in no way demonstrates "a master" level of skill.

And to think all this time I thought it took skill to repeatedly be able to hit someone while not getting hit myself.:rolleyes:

I have to seriously question just how many people here could spot a well trained FMArtist in the first place. It seems most people here are out to be visually entertained, rather than develop something that is of value in a fight.