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GOLDEN ARMOR
05-20-2003, 08:08 AM
Can TCM be used to help with (serious) heart problems?

What would a TCM doctor do for this? (eg. herbs, acupuncture, etc?)

Would chi gong help? & would it be safe for someone with heart problems to do?

is there a specific type of chi gong that's good for the heart?

JAZA
05-24-2003, 09:04 PM
There is qigong for the internal organs, but I don't know if will help a vey disease heart. In TCM the origins of disease is different form occidental medicine.
May be you can ask an expert in Sydney, there is a lot of good TCM masters.

Former castleva
05-25-2003, 01:17 PM
Hate to interrupt you but are you not satisfied with conventional medicine or just looking for an alternative (for some reason) ?

Well,Im highly confident that there is no evidence of qi-gong or related therapy helping such a chronic condition.

JAZA
05-25-2003, 05:47 PM
Why are you highly confident about it?

Repulsive Monkey
05-26-2003, 05:08 AM
It all depends what kind of heart problem it is?

azwingchun
05-26-2003, 08:49 AM
I am going to give you my answer based on 4 different people who went to my TCM doctor and teacher. Some had very severe symptoms, from their face turning red, becoming short breath and pains running up their neck and down the inside of their left arm. The others just had basic heart palpitations etc. To answer the questions....they all seemed to recover completely, and are living full and active lifes with no limitations. This was through herbal treatment.

As far as doctors go, well, I prefer TCM over Western medicine myself. This is just from my experience and opinions. This isn't to toot Dr. Chow's horn (the TCM doctor that treated the above people), but I have seen what his patients call 'miracles' from his TCM treatments.

I am sure there will those who will post and call them not 'miracles' but 'placebos'. LOL!!!!! ;)

azwingchun
05-26-2003, 08:59 AM
I would like to add that all 4 of those people mentioned, had all seen doctors (one being my wife), and the doctors found nothing wrong with them, or told them that heart palpitations were normal in 75% of all people and not to worry.

An interesting point made by Dr. Chow concerning the above was, that in many cases health problems aren't detected by Western medicine until there is already organic damage done. Unless, your symptoms occur at the very moment the test are being given by your physician. Whereas TCM can detect problems before this state, where damage has already occured.

What are your ideas and opinions on this? ;)

Former castleva
05-27-2003, 05:50 AM
"I would like to add that all 4 of those people mentioned, had all seen doctors (one being my wife), and the doctors found nothing wrong with them, or told them that heart palpitations were normal in 75% of all people and not to worry."
Uh huh.Sounds like quite a bunch of asses,referring to normality of heart palpitations.At least as far as I understood.

"An interesting point made by Dr. Chow concerning the above was, that in many cases health problems aren't detected by Western medicine until there is already organic damage done. Unless, your symptoms occur at the very moment the test are being given by your physician. Whereas TCM can detect problems before this state, "
Not too easy to agree that generally you cant detect issues in WM before organic damage (btw,this is something that I have seen passed on in books by major quackers-homeopaths etc.)
Id be happy to be convinced that TCM can detect problems before that stage like that.

"I am sure there will those who will post and call them not 'miracles' but 'placebos'. LOL!!!!! "
He heh. :) Miracles,they disappear under analysis.

"I am going to give you my answer based on 4 different people who went to my TCM doctor and teacher. Some had very severe symptoms, from their face turning red, becoming short breath and pains running up their neck and down the inside of their left arm. The others just had basic heart palpitations etc. To answer the questions....they all seemed to recover completely, and are living full and active lifes with no limitations. This was through herbal treatment."
One more anecdote.

Edit;
Sorry JAZA,I managed to miss your question.
Im highly confident because opposing evidence is wanting.

azwingchun
05-27-2003, 12:26 PM
Call it what you want, they are fine now. This for all purposes (whatever you want to call it) is what helped and they are fine and have been fine for a long time now. I am not trying to be sarcastic, just truthful.

By the way...how did I know to expect a comment on this from you? LOL!!!!! ;)

Former castleva
05-27-2003, 12:52 PM
You might find some comfort from the thought that I happened to criticize "western doctors" for a reason.

"By the way...how did I know to expect a comment on this from you? LOL!!!!! "
:) Perhaps due to the fact that to me at least,you seemed to indirectly pose a challenging question at me.

azwingchun
05-27-2003, 01:02 PM
You might find some comfort from the thought that I happened to criticize "western doctors" for a reason.

I wished that I could find the article that I read the other day. I found it very interesting to say the least. I was going to post it for you. It stated that the the third leading cause of death (if my memory serve me) in the U.S was Western medicine. Misdiagnosis, surgeries performed on the wrong patients, perscriptions and dosages that were wrongly administered, etc. And this didn't take into account the patients that didn't die, just suffered greatly. ;)

Years ago I read a journal, that stated in two or three different parts of the world England and South America (again, if memeory serves), that there was a time were doctors went on strike and the death rate dropped during that time period. Again, I wished that I had the article, but this has been maybe 7 or 8 years ago I read this one. ;)

What's your opinion?

Former castleva
05-27-2003, 02:45 PM
Im aware that many die under the care of professionals.
If I remember right,in terms of fatalities from medical issues in U.S,stroke used to rank among the third (if I remember right)
Its these kinds of conditions you see,that would have been termed "hopeless" some time ago,but due to constant evolution in medical SCIENCE,these cases do still have hope to rely on.
When I have been debating alt. medicine entertainers around here,I have been reminded of this same statistic (or related statistics) this,I believe,can be resorted to when running out of support for ones arguments.However,Ill be responding in the very same manner as before.
Medicine causes deaths,yes? Yes.Without medicine more deaths,yes? Id think so.Patients with terminal conditions may or may not recover with care,yes? Yes.If we consider that a dead patient under professional care might have as well had died NOT trying,would that be desirable? No-No.

"Years ago I read a journal, that stated in two or three different parts of the world England and South America (again, if memeory serves), that there was a time were doctors went on strike and the death rate dropped during that time period. "
You might very well had read an actual article,Ill have to cut off some points for not offering it to me though.
In this relatively fresh thread here,Pilgrim posted a link to a rather suspicious site http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22559&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
Site;www.mercola.com
It seems this "doctors,death,3rd" claim can be found directly from this site.Yet this site also happily bashes life saving vaccines,and rides on some recent health scares (along with promoting some quackery) You see where Im getting at?
If I was a doctor,I might well interpret this as a classic ad hominem argument.

fragbot
05-27-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by GOLDEN ARMOR
Can TCM be used to help with (serious) heart problems?


I'm sure they'll be people who'll swear up and down it will. Be prepared to look critically at their comments however.

Overall, I'd listen to your cardiologist.



What would a TCM doctor do for this? (eg. herbs, acupuncture, etc?)


Justa hunch, but I suspect garlic and/or foxglove would be somewhere on the list.

If you're already taking digoxin, foxglove would be contra-indicated. Likewise, if you're taking something like warfarin (coumadin) or plavix (clopidogrel), garlic supplements may be contra-indicated as well.



Would chi gong help? & would it be safe for someone with heart problems to do?


Maybe. In the trivial sense that it's good for your health to get up and move around. Whether or not it's safe, prolly depends on the qigong.

I suspect iron body stuff would be a terrible idea for someone with, say, high blood pressure. OTOH, I can't see how the Chen style reverse breathing or the Dai family squatting monkey exercise would be a problem if they're done with a gentle attitude. Similarly, with its focus on relaxation, I can't see how zhan zhuang would be harmful either.



is there a specific type of chi gong that's good for the heart?

see my initial comment.

FWIW, I'm only associated with health care as a consumer (albeit more motivated than most people), so my advice is worth what you paid for it.

azwingchun
05-27-2003, 03:51 PM
I can appreciate your side of this discussion, but the link you posted on ephedra hardly convinces me of anything. Just be be honest with you. 17 related deaths doesn't convince me of anything. Many of these deaths have been reported that they were misued or over taken such for weight loss. Not to mention many of these people should never have touched ephedra due to pre-existing health problems, this just being an example.

This reminds me of the news story that ran about 6 months ago talking about green tea killing people. They acted as if it was an epidemic. But how many people in the world use green tea? I am surprised that half of China hasn't died. LOL!!!!

Don't get me wrong here (because I am actually enjoying a civil conversation with you about this), but people die from everything. Whether a allergic food reaction, over consumption (ex. alcohol), misuse (ex. diet drugs), the list goes on. You can't logically ban every that has killed a handful of people. I know I am going to the extreme here, but let's be honest, for as long as these natural herbs have been used there are very few related deaths. Though, I will admit I am not one who has all the statistics on these type of related deaths, though you seem to be one who may. You mentioned in the ephedra thread that 17 was enough for you. Your right in the sense that these deaths shouldn't have happened maybe, but what were the circumstances that caused these deaths? Was it over use, were there prior health conditions? You yourself, a man who wants scientific proof of everything should be willing to look into this. You are just accepting the medical point of view with out knowing what actually was the cause of death. I am sure ephedra isn't poisonous, but as anything misused can be fatal.

I am of the understanding that I won't be able to change your mind, and in no way am I trying to. But there are always two sides to a story.....sometimes 3.

;)

Former castleva
05-28-2003, 03:12 AM
"I can appreciate your side of this discussion, but the link you posted on ephedra hardly convinces me of anything. Just be be honest with you. 17 related deaths doesn't convince me of anything. Many of these deaths have been reported that they were misued or over taken such for weight loss. Not to mention many of these people should never have touched ephedra due to pre-existing health problems, this just being an example."

I see.
When I did refer to that discussion in my last post,I was not really all too concerned about ephedra and its influences (which I used to)

"Don't get me wrong here (because I am actually enjoying a civil conversation with you about this), but people die from everything. Whether a allergic food reaction, over consumption (ex. alcohol), misuse (ex. diet drugs), the list goes on. You can't logically ban every that has killed a handful of people. "
I understand,and might go as far as agreement.
To bring up my point,I was mainly expressing my opinion AND the fact that you do not always know what you get (non-regulated materia can circulate around)
In this board,I have posted small list(s) of toxic Chinese herbs (some of these herbs have been ripped off the shelves then,truely due to "trial&error" method) I did hardly list all of the toxic herbs.

"This reminds me of the news story that ran about 6 months ago talking about green tea killing people. They acted as if it was an epidemic. But how many people in the world use green tea? I am surprised that half of China hasn't died. LOL!!!!"
Sounds like a fraud.
In a matter of fact,I do have a couple of bags of Chinese green tea left around here.That must have been some tea then.
Some studies point to benefits of green tea which I recognize,some seem to be more skeptical.Overall,it seems good.

"Your right in the sense that these deaths shouldn't have happened maybe, but what were the circumstances that caused these deaths? Was it over use, were there prior health conditions? You yourself, a man who wants scientific proof of everything should be willing to look into this."
I tried to address this,to some degree.
As before,interaction with other drugs and existing medical conditions etc. are but another good reason to bring the root under the eye.

"for as long as these natural herbs have been used there are very few related deaths."
I might very well be sticking into nuances but natural does not equal safe.

"You are just accepting the medical point of view with out knowing what actually was the cause of death. I am sure ephedra isn't poisonous, but as anything misused can be fatal."
Im not sure if ANYTHING misused can be fatal but ephedra seems to have made its way to the black list.
Heres another article.
http://www.health.org/reality/articles/2003/ephedra.asp
One thing that interests me is that this herb was supposed to have been used for asthma and respiratory infections.
Yet as far as I know,there are no studies that confirm this (that Id been exposed to at least) and that its physiological effects do not necessarily seem to entertain this view,or so it seems.

azwingchun
05-28-2003, 08:57 PM
I have to agree with you on the fact that many herbs (such as ephedra) can be harmful if taken in the wrong amounts, or if someone has a certain type of health condition. But as for banning the herb, well, I find that a little extreme. Again, I might be taking 17 deaths too lightly, but again what were the conditions surrounding the cause of death? Were there any pre-existing health conditions that should have been looked into before taking something such as ephedra? But to be honest, I don't have those answers either, just speculation based upon what effect ephedra has on the body. Then compared to the number of people world wide who use it on a daily basis. The numbers of problems associated with ephedra are very, very low. But, I am not going to beat a dead horse. These are just my humble opinions. :D


I might very well be sticking into nuances but natural does not equal safe.

Hey, we do agree on something! ;)


One thing that interests me is that this herb was supposed to have been used for asthma and respiratory infections.

You are correct, Dr Chow uses it in a mixture of herbs called Decoction of Little Blue Dragon, which he uses for asthma. Though, if there is a heart condition he replaces it with Sileris (but doubled in measurement). Since, I am not a TCM herbalist by far, so what purpose it has on asthma, I can't tell you honestly. ;)

bodhitree
06-25-2003, 08:26 AM
A TCM doctor probably wouldnt recomend ephedra for someone with a bad heart, and probably not as a performance enhancer. It may be good for some things, but other things should be taken into account.