Leaning backwards?

[chen zhen]

How come all the WC masters you see in the old (and new) pictures are always leaning backwards, or hunching their backs? Does that have a specific purpose, or is it just bad form? because at my tai chi or xingyi classes I'm always corrected if I do it unconsciously, and taught that it's not possible to get real power in your punch if you hunch your back.
Sorry if this have already been posted;)

[hunt1]

No leaning back no crunching forward. Some may well have poor structure but pictures can be deceptive.

[chen zhen]

Look at Yip Man and BL in this pic. Don't say they aren't leaning. (and look at the bad foot position Bruce has, but that is off-topic..:rolleyes: )

edit: actually Yip Man is leaning more than BL. But maybe it's a bad example, I'll try to find a better one in a minute..

[Alpha Dog]

That's a great question for your Sifu. Ask him, see what he says, and if he can't answer you, get a new Sifu.

If he does answer you, please post it online.

[chen zhen]

I don't practise WC, so well..:)

[Alpha Dog]

That's too bad. Your teacher is right about the hunched back and its inability to generate power, though.

[chen zhen]

He showed me in a good way too, he let me strike a target in a relaxed way while in the hunched position, and then afterwards while having a straight back. I could definately feel the difference!
That's why I wonder why many WC'ers does it.:confused:

[Alpha Dog]

For everything the camera captures, there is something hidden.

[Wingman]

I don't think that the back is hunched in the picture. It just looks that way because WC keeps the arms in front and tucks the elbows in. In the picture, I can see that both YM & BL are leaning back a little. I was told that the more adept you are at WC, you tend to lead back. Maybe that's why WC masters tend to lean back. I don't really know the reason why they lean back because I'm not a WC master.:D

[Alpha Dog]

Wingman, who told you that?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Wingman, who told you that?
My WC teacher. Unfortunately, he didn't tell me the reason why. Of course, he is no WC master, just a humble teacher.

[Alpha Dog]

Fair enough.

I'd like to hear from some of the more experienced WC practicioners online, if they can pull themselves away from talking about who taught whom what first and why, what they think about expert level WC being a leaning backward posture.

[Neurotic]

This is something I've had conversations about.

Alot of wing chun is pushing forward (duh!) so you are using (if someone has better anatomy than me, please correct me) mostly the front muscles on the shoulder, and pec (as well as other, i.e. tricep etc), however, there is not much excercise of the muscles on back that pull the shoulders back.

This probably doesn't explain it very well - however, it is likened to someone who spends a long time in front of a computer - the shoulders come foward, and the back curves (especially if they slouch) as the muscles at front will tighten. Thus if you work in front of your computer for long periods you should do exercises to stretch out your pecs, and constrict your back muscles, to stop this from happening.
(I find bell flys, and dumbell rows etc really help this)

Anyhow - back on topic - without proper excercise to balance these effects, you CAN get a curved back and shoulders from doing alot of chi sau, because you are constricting muscles at the front, and not at the back.

All in all - its not a GOOD thing, as its bad posture, and bad for your back. So make sure you work out your back muscles when you do wing chun!

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Neurotic
This probably doesn't explain it very well - however, it is likened to someone who spends a long time in front of a computer - the shoulders come foward, and the back curves (especially if they slouch) as the muscles at front will tighten. Thus if you work in front of your computer for long periods you should do exercises to stretch out your pecs, and constrict your back muscles, to stop this from happening.
(I find bell flys, and dumbell rows etc really help this)

This is actually a very good sidebar (RR are you listening?): people who spend a lot of time at soul-killing office jobs, chained to their PCs (or who do so willingly), should spend time every day with the following exercise.

First, stand in a doorway with your forearms upward on each side and braced against the doorframe; push your chest forward until you feel the stretch and hold it for 30 seconds.

Next, bring your arms down slightly so they make a 90 degree angle with your sides; brace and hold for another 30 seconds.

Lastly, bring your arms down further and stretch again for another 30 seconds.

This will help to correct computer-related injury, which causes your shoulders to hunch forward and will limit the power of your punches and the integrity of your stance.

[chen zhen]

So to sum it up: It's a bad habit.

thanks:)

[Grabula]

leaning back is a break in structure. It may or may not have its uses but in general it forms a weak spot with anyone who wants to press forward with an attack, especially to the upper body/ throat/ head.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Grabula
leaning back is a break in structure. It may or may not have its uses but in general it forms a weak spot with anyone who wants to press forward with an attack, especially to the upper body/ throat/ head.

Obviously, leaning back wouldn't be used to offer up a weak spot to the opponent. When would it be appropriate Grabula? Why are beginners taught to lean back if this teaches them to expose a weakness from the get-go?

And how is it a break in structure? Define the structure from which leaning back breaks.

Not trolling, Grabula, just hoping to learn from you is all.

[reneritchie]

Who teaches beginners to lean back?

[reneritchie]

BTW, FWIW, Sao Hung is one of the reasons we in SNWCK train Sun Hei Gwai Yuen (a type of Hei Gung) before and after training WCK.

[Alpha Dog]

Who teaches beginners to stand straight or lean forward?

What is the ideal stance structure?

[reneritchie]

I would, would even teach them to lean back under the right circumstances. That's what dictates the proper horse alignment at the time. What about you?

[Alpha Dog]

I am not a Sifu, so I don't teach.

What I was asking about was why Grabula felt that leaning back was a break in structure. It seems from your last post, RR, that we are in agreement that it is not. Or am I wrong there too?

[reneritchie]

AD,

I'm not a sifu either, but as a sihing, it sometimes falls on me to Hoi Ma or Hoi Kuen certain sets. Have you experience in that context?

How are they using the term structure? And who says we never want to break it?

[fa_jing]

I have read that GM Leung Ting advocates leaning the head back as you enter with chain punches. Certainly he seems to do so in alot of photos I've seen.

[Alpha Dog]

I never said any such thing!

But if you scroll up you can read Grabula's post and get a sense for how he used the term "structure." If you are still unclear, as I was, you can also ask him.

I'm glad you get to coach juniors -- do you like it?

[reneritchie]

AD,

I know you didn't say that, it was a general question.

Out of respect for your new corporate VISA, I'll let you go first on sharing experience with sidai...

[Alpha Dog]

That's what I like about you, RR -- so respectful.

[reneritchie]

You're my rolemodel, dude!

[Alpha Dog]

Gosh, the love! I feel it!

[WCis4me]

alpha dog wrote:

Who teaches beginners to stand straight or lean forward?
I am taught to keep pelvis forward, back straight (parallel to wall), shoulders not hunched or tense.
Vicky

[Alpha Dog]

Hey Vicky,

That's cool. You do Cheung's right? When I started I was with a Sifu of Yip Man lineage and he was decidedly backward-leaning when with beginners, even if more senior students were with us.

I was in touch with him recently and I know some things have changed for him -- good things -- but with beginners he likes them leaning back. It keeps their heads out of the way when they are with other beginners (who love chain punching) and also helps them feel the edge of their centre of balance, if that makes any sense. Training comfort with off-balance first, so that rootedness begins to develop.

It's really amazing how sensitive this issue of leaning is. One might say, political!

[WCis4me]

Hiya Alpha Dog,

That's cool. You do Cheung's right?
Yup I do.

When I started I was with a Sifu of Yip Man lineage and he was decidedly backward-leaning when with beginners, even if more senior students were with us.
oh geez hope I am doing it right ;)

I was in touch with him recently and I know some things have changed for him -- good things
That's great!!!

but with beginners he likes them leaning back. It keeps their heads out of the way when they are with other beginners (who love chain punching) and also helps them feel the edge of their centre of balance, if that makes any sense.Training comfort with off-balance first, so that rootedness begins to develop.

I believe that is why it was explained to me to keep my pelvis forward. I actually tried it the other way (just for GP)and for me it hurts more with my back bent or hunched and leaves me feeling less focused and more unsteady.

It's really amazing how sensitive this issue of leaning is. One might say, political!
I see you taking your newly aquired Admin. responsibilities seriously......get that card yet......if so what time is dinner and drinks for me and my Sifu?;)

[Alpha Dog]

Of course I take my new role seriously! One day everyone will be wearing my logo on their jackets, buying my books and downloading Alpha Dog skins for online gaming! I must protect my reputation, because it will be my money-maker.

Don't have the card yet but when I do, it's drinks all round at the Brunswick House!

[Grabula]

Obviously, leaning back wouldn't be used to offer up a weak spot to the opponent. When would it be appropriate Grabula? Why are beginners taught to lean back if this teaches them to expose a weakness from the get-go?

I'm not sure who teaches it to beginners, although from your reply to Vicky it appears you do? I am not sure I would agree with why Cheung? teaches anyone to lean back. I can see the logic in it but that doesn't make it correct.
Leaning back breaks the structure of the spine and takes you off balance. That's not to say leaning back is a huge no no for someone who knows what they are doing, just saying that it is unusual and outside the "box". As in all things there is a time and a place.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
....but with beginners he likes them leaning back. It keeps their heads out of the way when they are with other beginners (who love chain punching) and also helps them feel the edge of their centre of balance, if that makes any sense. Training comfort with off-balance first, so that rootedness begins to develop....

As for my WC, it is the opposite. Beginners are taught to keep their pelvis forward but their backs straight. We are not taught to lean back. But as what I have mentioned in my previous post, my WC teacher mentioned that as you become more adept at WC, you tend to lean back. But he didn't tell me the reason why. I am also interested to know why this is so.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Grabula
Leaning back breaks the structure of the spine and takes you off balance.

What structure is that?

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Wingman
I am also interested to know why this is so.

Perhaps the caring, sharing big boys will fill us in on the right way -- if they get a moment.

[kj]

FWIW.

Our (me and mine) proper posture is upright, not leaning back, nor leaning forward. In either case a) balance is imperfect, b) the spine not aligned vertically and effortlessly supporting the body's weight, and c) as a result, this gives a skilled opponent opportunity of imbalance and tension to utilize.

However, as a result of our intense horse training and emphasis on knee strength (i.e., a low, compact horse stance, like Jim R. was discussing in another thread) , it is not uncommon for some students to lean back a little when they are first learning. As the knees become conditioned, the posture is erected and the weight can settle properly down and through the knees and feet rather than leaning back and without a "kneeling" sensation.

So ... while leaning back is not desired in practice and application, there may be stages of physical development and learning where some leaning back can be temporarily observed. Rarely is everything perfect right out of the chute.

Additionally, with our 5 checkpoints of posture, including and especially because of "ting yu" (pelvis rolled under and hips slightly forward), depending on visual angle it sometimes "appears" that someone is leaning back when they are not. Camera angles can also enhance this illusion.

I have found that in the game of trying to find perfect balance (in the general sense, for virtually everything), occasionally a deviation or error in one direction will be more egregious than an error in the opposing direction. As an example, and IME, leaning forward is a more egregious error than a slight leaning back when posture is short of perfection.

Lastly, as I think has been mentioned, a highly skilled and developed practitioner may be able to get away with a slight and momentary leaning backward under certain and limited circumstances. Still, I propose that this is the exception and not the rule, and not generally or especially desireable because of the vulnerabilities it poses, and to the degree that it deprives us of optimal power, or as we refer to it in our vernacular, "energy from the floor."

Others MMV. Just some thoughts, and passing time till the "big boys" heed your beck and call.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

LOL, thanks KJ. I like your kibbles just fine, no need for a novel permeated with bizarre abbreviations and obscure Cantonese verbage nobody uses.

[WCis4me]

Hi Grabula,
Sorry I am a bit confused now.
grabula wrote:

I'm not sure who teaches it to beginners, although from your reply to Vicky it appears you do? I am not sure I would agree with why Cheung? teaches anyone to lean back. I can see the logic in it but that doesn't make it correct.
I said I am NOT being taught to lean. I am a novice. I am learning Cheung's style.
Just to be clear on what I am saying I am doing here is what I posted:
(first posted reply from me) "I am taught to keep pelvis forward, back straight (parallel to wall), shoulders not hunched or tense............"
(snip of next posted reply from me).......
"I believe that is why it was explained to me to keep my pelvis forward. I actually tried it the other way (just for GP)and for me it hurts more with my back bent or hunched and leaves me feeling less focused and more unsteady."
It seems that you are thinking I do the opposite, from what you wrote.....or am I just reading what you wrote wrong........lol needing a map right now, I am totally lost.
Vicky

[Alpha Dog]

It seems as though nobody trains a backward-leaning stance at the beginner level, except for the people I know personally. That is very interesting!

If not at SLT, then when? Ever? Chum Kiu? Biu Ji?

At some time, you're gonna be leaning back. Don't you think a complete system like WC would train for it?

[Grabula]

Vicky, sorry for the confusion, I saw your post, you are taught the same way I am. I read Alpha Dogs post incorrectly and assumed Cheung taught his students to lean backwards.

Alpha Dog - kj explained it well and anything I would have to add would be superfluous.
I have been taught some leaning like positions in bui jee but that is later on, once my center and balance as well as structure have been established concretely

[kj]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog


This is actually a very good sidebar (RR are you listening?): people who spend a lot of time at soul-killing office jobs, chained to their PCs (or who do so willingly), should spend time every day with the following exercise.

First, stand in a doorway with your forearms upward on each side and braced against the doorframe; push your chest forward until you feel the stretch and hold it for 30 seconds.

Next, bring your arms down slightly so they make a 90 degree angle with your sides; brace and hold for another 30 seconds.

Lastly, bring your arms down further and stretch again for another 30 seconds.

This will help to correct computer-related injury, which causes your shoulders to hunch forward and will limit the power of your punches and the integrity of your stance.

This pec stretch is good, and one prescribed by my physical therapists for shoulder problems, as well as by my trainer to help compensate for, as you say, excessive computer work and Wing Chun.

A word of caution for anyone with ligament laxity, tendencies to bursitis, or other shoulder issues though. It’s important not to overdo the stretch, or stretch from a position which might risk more problems in the shoulder joint area. Because of the shoulder’s range of motion, it is one of the more precarious joints in the body. Careless work can easily offset benefits to the stretch in surrounding tissues.

IMHO, it's always a good idea to "listen" to our bodies, rather than go mechanically through the motions anyway, even with a simple and terrific stretch such as this one. Just some thoughts from personal experience.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

That is true, KJ. You want to stretch until you just start to feel a stretch, not to the point where it begins to test the limit of your mobility.

Apart from helping with power, it will improve posture too and make both man and woman better at scoring points outside the classroom.

[sel]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog


What structure is that?

um...maybe he means alignment. the slight tilt forward of the pelvis helps to straighten the spine and give you a better posture.

[Alpha Dog]

So WC is to be practiced in a fixed and rigid "stance"? I don't think so.

[reneritchie]

AD doesn't think so correctly!

[Alpha Dog]

Now RR, are you trolling again?

[Grabula]

So WC is to be practiced in a fixed and rigid "stance"? I don't think so.


Who said this?

[Alpha Dog]

You said that leaning back breaks the structure and therefore it is not a good thing. Ergo, you inferred that some form of WC structure (which you are yet to map out for me, despite repeated requests) must be maintained.

[Grabula]

some form of WC structure... must be maintained

whenever possible!

However, a fixed and "rigid" stance was not implied or ideal. Bending backwards breaks connection at the hips for starters but also the spine as well. Energy is easier to disperse in a spine that is straight, with hips rolled forward.

[reneritchie]

I guess, since I was agreeing with you.

[Alpha Dog]

As Butch Cassidy said to the Sundance Kid: "Let's troll, before we're dancin' at the end of a rope."

Glad you have you onboard.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Grabula
Bending backwards breaks connection at the hips for starters but also the spine as well. Energy is easier to disperse in a spine that is straight, with hips rolled forward.

I never likened proper WC stance to the mombo!

Or is the the mamba?

At any rate, snakes don't even have hips and they are powerful!

[Grabula]

I never likened proper WC stance to the mombo!

nor did I.


At any rate, snakes don't even have hips and they are powerful!

snakes do good wing chun at times, at others, not so good. could be lack of limbs?

[Alpha Dog]

Cats don't really have hips either, and they generate a lot of power.

At any rate, when would a "leaning back" slightly backward tilting inclination be trained, if ever? Surely there is some consensus, and it should be tied to the forms, right?

I admit I labour the issue, but it's a position people find themselves in and I wonder if anyone actively trains for it. Of course, it exposes a weakness, but so does every position.

[kj]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
At any rate, when would a "leaning back" slightly backward tilting inclination be trained, if ever? Surely there is some consensus, and it should be tied to the forms, right?

Perhaps too obviously, at the end of the 3rd set.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Of course, it exposes a weakness, but so does every position.

True, but some positions minimize vulnerabilities and optimize advantages more rigorously than others.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grabula]

I would put it at a more advanced level of training. You need to learn the basics first before learning something that goes outside the wingchun box, inmho.

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie
BTW, FWIW, Sao Hung is one of the reasons we in SNWCK train Sun Hei Gwai Yuen (a type of Hei Gung) before and after training WCK.

Hi Rene

Why is that? care to go into more details of Sao Hung and why SHGY is needed before and after? thanks.


Just curious:

how much leaning is considered "leaning"?

Is it leaning when the head located behind the heel line, as when you draw a vertical line from back of the head to the ground; and the line lands behind the heels.

And, do you have to lean more when the knees sink beyond the toes line?

[Grabula]

yylee- I like to think of a pole being stuck through the top of my head and down the length of my spine. The more you can learn to turn around that pole with precision the more energy you can take on and deflect, and the less you have to move to do it. If that pole is leaning then you have to expend more energy to turn and you will be less precise.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Grabula
I like to think of a pole being stuck through the top of my head and down the length of my spine.

It is a compelling image!

[Grabula]

It was explained to me once at a seminar and easily demonstrated with a spear as well.

[Alpha Dog]

Did it hurt? :D

[Grabula]

a little carefully applied bong sau and the pain went away ;)

[spyder]

Wing Chun is about structure. No? Anything that breaks the structure is bad. Is leaning back bad? Only if it breaks the structure. Yip Man leaned back to some degree but do we know why? Others don't. Do we know why? Do you know why YOU lean or don't lean?


Spyder

[Alpha Dog]

Do you know what you are saying? Why?

[spyder]

Not important what I say. I know what I know and that doesn't help any one here as this is just words. The key is do you know what you say! Not you in particular.

Is Leaning Bad? Why? Why did Yip Man "appear" to lean? Why do some of his students advocate not leaning and why do some lean? What does this have to do with structure?

Spyder

[chen zhen]

and who is gonna answer your questions? and why not? and if you answer, why do you answer?

:D I was the thread starter, I can't use hypothetical questions.:)

[John Weiland]

Hi Spyder,

Originally posted by spyder
Is Leaning Bad? Why? Why did Yip Man "appear" to lean?

Yes, leaning can be bad, whether it is forward or backward. Ting Yu--back straight-- is an important characteristic of a good horse. Like any other mistake, leaning puts the person at a disadvantage and can be taken advantage of.

As folks have pointed out, photos can be deceptive. As for the photo of YM and Bruce Lee, Yip Man was very old, or at any rate, not in his prime by that time. Likely he wasn't fully aware of his structure by that point, or he was able to be structured without appearing so, an ability he likely had.


Why do some of his students advocate not leaning and why do some lean? What does this have to do with structure?

I am not aware of any of Yip Man's students who advocate leaning regularly, unless as KJ noted, it's the latter set of movements in Bil Gee. Can you tell me which students of Yip Man advocate leaning in any regard as basic structure?

The most important training in my Wing Chun is correct positioning. Correct positioning starts with the correct stance. Without a good stance (or horse) the hands and feet will not be able to coordinate in the proper way.

There are certain elements key to a good horse. Among them are the following checkpoints of posture.
Kim sut -- Hips and knees pressing together
Lok ma -- Sink the stance downward through the knees
Ting yu -- Back straight, pelvis rolled under slightly so that each vertebrae is stacked one on top of the other. The spine is completely aligned. The upper body should not be leaning back.
Dung tao -- Head up
Mai jiang -- Pressing the elbows inward and forward

If I'm missiing any of these, such as by leaning, then I do not have my correct structure.

The final element off the top of my head is staying relaxed. This is done "hing mui dom se," meaning relaxed and effortless in mind and body. You can do all the above rigidly and not be have what I consider a good structure. I'd suggest that you're not relaxed if you're leaning.

Regards,

[Alpha Dog]

Are you leaning now? How do you know? Any thoughts?

[kj]

Originally posted by John Weiland
As folks have pointed out, photos can be deceptive. As for the photo of YM and Bruce Lee, Yip Man was very old, or at any rate, not in his prime by that time. Likely he wasn't fully aware of his structure by that point, or he was able to be structured without appearing so, an ability he likely had.

There are limitless reasons why things can appear as they do in pictures. Photos are sometimes taken in motion or when adjustments are being made; human bodies are rarely static unless posed. In order to highlight one thing clearly, something else may be momentarily comprimised. Perhaps a most compelling musing, as has so astutely been pointed out to me on more than one occasion, "Ip Man's wrong is more correct than your right."

Just some contemplations on the "I saw Ip Man do it in a picture, so it must be correct" thesis.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by kj
human bodies are rarely static unless posed.

My Wing Chun iz very goood,
I learned it from a book!

Que?

[Alpha Dog]

Only those at extremely high levels of WC can lean back. Everyone else is perpendicular to floor in YJKYM stance. This explains why Yip Man is leaning back in the picture and BL isn't.

Thanks to everyone who provided their insights!

[hunt1]

Are you so sure Yip Man is leaning back in the picture. Is his back breaking the plain of the heel. Could the apparent lean be caused by the position of his pelvis? Perhaps he is just relaxed. If you are not recieving or issuing energy do you need to have a straight spine. Might there not be a difference between relaxed and actual usage? A picture can not tell you about energy and energy and its usage is the key to wing chun.

[Alpha Dog]

Yes I am sure. He is leaning back because only Masters do!

(disclaimer: extreme scarcasm used throughout this thread)

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by kj


True, but some positions minimize vulnerabilities and optimize advantages more rigorously than others.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Hey KJ,
quick question... when you guys train the triple elbows at the beginning of BJ, are you taught to bring your head back, or do you stay in that 5 point alignment?

thnx!

[kj]

Originally posted by burnsypoo


Hey KJ,
quick question... when you guys train the triple elbows at the beginning of BJ, are you taught to bring your head back, or do you stay in that 5 point alignment?

thnx!

We train to stay with the 5 checkpoints.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by kj


We train to stay with the 5 checkpoints.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Ok, thanks.
Do you know of any articles on the LS/KC Biu Jee that I could check out?

[kj]

Not off top of my head. If I happen across any I'll try to remember to let you know. If you have any questions in particular, feel free to ask.

Our methods and philosophies as more generally discussed apply in Biu Tze as to the other sets. Similarly, Biu Tze concepts are interwoven into the fabric of all our other sets and practice, each informing the other. So aside from its choreography and the introduction of some explicit movements, its an integrated part of the whole, IMHO.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Wingman]

Originally posted by kj
<snip>Perhaps a most compelling musing, as has so astutely been pointed out to me on more than one occasion, "Ip Man's wrong is more correct than your right."<snip>
Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Hi KJ,

I wonder why a WC master like Yip Man will deliberately execute a "wrong" position. Shouldn't he aim for perfection and avoid mistakes at all cost?

[flaco]

i would think it's wrong to lean back, because in snt you are to make the spine straight, in all art, the qi gong parts, the spine is straight. i think many wc guys when tucking the hips, dont drop the tailbone, and by pushing the hips up they lean back.
alot of pictures of yip, were when he was old, so who knows.

in xin yi, we are taught in qi gong to inhale and suck the belly in, giving an appearance of a round back(hunched forward), and on exhale push the belly down and straighten, this is where the power comes from, in all five elemnts,so on, you use the dan tien for explosion,and whole body power, if not, its not internal xin yi.


i think there is a big debate on the 50/50 stance vs. the 70/30 stance in different wc branches, it looks like the 70/30 guys lean back more, because of the strategy, so i hope to get the answers from some high level guys here, this was a good question.

[kj]

Originally posted by Wingman


Hi KJ,

I wonder why a WC master like Yip Man will deliberately execute a "wrong" position. Shouldn't he aim for perfection and avoid mistakes at all cost?

Hi Wingman.

I can't rightly assume too much about his motivations, though the sky's the limit when it comes to possibilities. Maybe he was trying to take some pressure off of Bruce in the photo linked above. Maybe it was an illustration of his range, or a playful display of how much he personally could get away with, or even showing at that moment what not to do. As I understand it, Ip Man was known to be quite the prankster. Maybe he was a bit reluctant to show his "best" on camera for any number of reasons. Perhaps he was indeed trying to illustrate the only single correct way. Maybe he was showing how beginners practice. I posed several other possibilities in my earlier post. There could have been no motivation at all, and looking at any given picture of him doing any given thing, just what he felt like doing that moment that day. Unlimited possibilities when assumptions are set aside.

It's challenging enough to assess the motivations of people we know really well. I am both grateful for Ip Man's work and accepting of the fact that he was undoubtedly very human. I often wonder if he took himself as seriously as some of us tend to.

These are just some musings. The definite answer is, I don't and can't know.

Regards,
- kj

[Alpha Dog]

Maybe Yip Man didn't want his art to become commercialized via the media.

Heck it took Bruce Lee to do that!

Nobody works hard to give it all up for free, nor should they.

[spyder]

Hello John,


Originally posted by John Weiland
[B]Hi Spyder,

As folks have pointed out, photos can be deceptive. As for the photo of YM and Bruce Lee, Yip Man was very old, or at any rate, not in his prime by that time. Likely he wasn't fully aware of his structure by that point, or he was able to be structured without appearing so, an ability he likely had.


I don't think we can say how aware he was at that time. I have heard he was quite good even towards the end. The issue may be if he could execute good wing chun even in less than optimal postures? Perhaps people were not good enough to challenge him into a perfect stance that we try so hard to acheive in training? Hard to say from a picture why he chose a a stance that appears to be leaning. Did he have a back problem? Did he compensate for something else we may not be aware of? If he taught a straight back, then that is what we should do. If he taught the leaning method, then that is what we should do. Learning from a picture is bad. In the end, is the structure there? If not, then it is not correct.

Spyder

[Wingman]

Sorry for reviving this old thread. Last weekend while doing chisao, my partner commented that I am leaning back. I told him that I'm not deliberately leaning back. After some scrutiny, we found out that the more I bend my knees (specially the back leg), the more I seem to lean back.

Bending the knees makes me feel stable yet mobile. Stable because my stance is lower. Mobile because the bended knees gives it a springy feeling. I can quickly move forward or in any direction.

Looking back at the picture, http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=327423 I can observe that Bruce's & Yip Man's knees are bent. IMHO, the bended knees could be the "culprit" why they seem to lean back.

[Keng Geng]

There is a tilt back and a tilt forward.

[planetwc]

When I first started training in WCK I was leaning backwards more as well. It took me time to get the stance and structure such that I was not slanting backwards.

Structure, balance, stability during movement are really hard to train in the learning the system and something we all have to train at to deal with things properly.

I think in the HK days many were leaning back to keep their heads out of range as it was popular to "headhunt" and by leaning backwards you presented less of a target.

As my sifu said a lot of old school HK wing chun was head hunting and neck chops. Lots of bruised faces, bloody lips and the like.

Given the emphasis in training in my early days with drills like lop sau, that fist coming towards your face is something one is not comfortable with.
So I don't know how much was just poor structure on my part as well as just tilting back to get out of range.

You tend to get to the right position of back straight once:

1. Your structure adjusts correctly.
2. You develop the hands to deal with incoming attacks to the upper body.

I thiink for those who are masters as mentioned in earlier posts, they will keep themselves not in their most "optimal" posture for dealing out damage IF they are NOT being threatened.

One also has to wonder how much they want to show in a photograph of what their art really entails. Some would change the choreography of sets to not "show their treasure".

Remember there was a time Bil Jee was considered closed door knowledge, it is not as it is nowadays.

Head like glass, stomach like tofu, bridge like iron.