ANy Kung-Fuers wanna fight MMA - for real? [Archive]

Daelomin

05-21-2003, 03:16 PM

Well i'm just simply drawn to it. I like sparring hard and i like competing = NHB fighting.

But IMHO i think that NHB is totaly it's own ballgame, i can't just keep on training kung fu techniques that are meant to end a fight fast and think that i can use that in the ring. So i figured that i'l join some sort of MMA club soon, where they train for the NHB ring. Here i can train techniques that are meant for the NHB ring and see what part of my kung fu can be used within NHB rules. And i get to train groundwork, which i think is like 70% of NHB fighting. At least here in the finnish scene, where we have pretty restrictive rules for strikers in most tournaments (shooto rules), for example you can only hit with the knuckles of your hand (no palms, knifehands etc.), no elbows.
I hope i'l be fighting NHB some years from now

norther practitioner

05-21-2003, 03:29 PM

We use a # of different rules when we spar..... depends on what we are working on, or for. We do go to the ground sometimes..... Sometimes we concentrate on kicking, sometimes punching, sometimes close quarter elbows and knees, sometimes all of it.....

I'm not looking to train to fight competitively right now, enjoying sparring and forms... would rather not limit myself to the desk at work with injuries during the summer.

Edmund

05-21-2003, 04:55 PM

I doubt I'd do that well.

There are some tough guys doing NHB.
Either they wish they could go pro (and they're training for that opportunity) or they actually are pro and seeing a little money out of it.
Hell I'd say there are almost more guys training for NHB than there are spectators!

It's a real participation sport but even most of those guys cannot get in an event! They have very few outlets to compete and they ARE keen to do it and are training for that chance.

Back when I did Muay Thai, all of us were training hard and waiting for our shot - keen for a slot anywhere on any amateur card. I would have been ****ed off if some kung fu guy waltzed in and got a match - someone who isn't even into the sport.

Right now with that many guys busting their ass training NHB, I'd be ashamed to take their spot.
And no one would offer it to me. It'd be a waste of a match. I make a good tomato can for an up and comer.

Truth is I am only an amateur in kungfu. I doubt I'd be that competitive. There's no real avenues for a guy like me. Without a low level amateur style sport, Gil can't even get a lick of the brass ring (simpson's reference).

I think if someone set up a less exclusive event, me and most guys I know wouldn't mind giving it a try. Right now I think the step up is too big. It's not my scene in the first place.

I'm pretty comfortable being nobody and just learning kungfu.

KenWingJitsu

05-22-2003, 11:25 AM

Good post Edmund. Pleasantly surprising.

Anyone else think a "Kung fu-er" shoul d be able to do well?

Merryprankster

05-22-2003, 11:29 AM

It's a real participation sport but even most of those guys cannot get in an event! They have very few outlets to compete and they ARE keen to do it and are training for that chance.

Not exactly true. There are many promoters looking for fighters in events of all levels. Plenty of opportunity.

David Jamieson

05-22-2003, 11:36 AM

I agree with merry, there is no shortage of people who want to put on these events.

the problem truly is what would the quality of that event be if all you had was jimmy haymaker vs billy grabby?

It will solidify over time, it already is doing so. There certainly weren't many of these "fight for real" contests in the western world outside of traditional boxing and wrestling and the UFC and NHB type events are relativly new to the scene.

Competition isn't exactly an old mans game either. Guys in the 40's and 50's while they make great teachers and still have a lot of go would be thoroughly surprising to see take a match of these proportions. There are one or two to be sure, but "fight for real" in the ring or on the street is not an old mans game. The more gentenmanly matches and tests of skill, wherein the fight is still for real, but more like a chess match.

Now, before you go off on the whole "old vs young" thing, yes I am aware of Larry Holmes and other great fighters who were in their primne when most were past it at that age and I personally know some guys up in years that are deadly dudes. I'm speaking of the overall scope.

cheers

norther practitioner

05-22-2003, 11:37 AM

Depends on where you are at. The nhb, mma thing is starting to take off out here. It's not what I train for. We have some guys in my school that do, and do ok. Not my cup of tea at this time, I enjoy the competition, but I also like being just a "training partner."

Merryprankster

05-22-2003, 11:44 AM

Suntzu

05-22-2003, 11:49 AM

it's still getting used to crowds, nerves and lights. i get butterflies just thinking about it :cool: ...

i would do pretty good... standup is pretty OK... ground game is OK enuff to get back on my feet... unless dude is like Div 1 calibre... i could bang... might give it a try in 04...

David Jamieson

05-22-2003, 11:51 AM

it's still getting used to crowds, nerves and lights.

absolutely true. Often times the venue will defeat the fighter :D

I've seen it with stage fright etc etc. It's no different in fighting...especially if your mom and your girlfriend is watching! :eek:

cheers

Edmund

05-22-2003, 06:13 PM

If you want it bad enough, you'll travel. Some promoters will pay traveling expenses--in fact, most do.

If you approach it like a weekend tournament, you'll lose. In other words "oh, if it's close, I'll do it," is going to get your ass kicked in.

Kung Lek-- Ring experience is ring experience. There's a reason no boxing coach lets a 0-0 guy in with a 0-6 fighter... So even if it's jimmy the tough guy haymaker against johnny the frat boy tackle whattaguy, it's still getting used to crowds, nerves and lights.

But I don't want it bad at all.

The "scene" for 0-0 fighters is pretty much similar to a toughman comp. The promotors don't want a weekend tournament! But I do. I got no problem getting my ass kicked in. I don't mind losing. But as the tomato can on the card of an event geared towards pulling spectators, I don't feel I'd add any value.

Maybe they should make a weekend tournament.
I think they'd get a lot of interest from a really different crowd. Currently these events pull a certain crowd and fighters and that is not going to change much. For people outside that scene, they don't want to watch or compete very much.

Merryprankster

05-23-2003, 03:11 AM

You know, there are some pancrase tournaments and something called sport jiujitsu (I think) that have tournament formats that are a little less intensive. That might do the trick

Oso

05-23-2003, 03:34 AM

You know, there are some pancrase tournaments and something called sport jiujitsu (I think) that have tournament formats that are a little less intensive. That might do the trick

yes, there is. I'm working towards one now. The rules are a little funky with 3 specific phases of the bout and striking is only allowed on your feet (1st phase) and certain types of strikes to the head are not allowed.

you can win by points or submission but you have to submit them 3 times in the 8 min round to win. if they are up points (from striking, mainly) at the end of the match and you submitted them twice then they still win.

Chang Style Novice

05-23-2003, 06:52 AM

If I wasn't such a newbie and in terrible shape, yes, I'd love to try it out.

Shaolin-Do

05-23-2003, 07:05 AM

I was going to fight in mma this september, but i f*cked my shoulder.
Reason I was going to was so I could hit people hard, and in the face.
My ground game is enough to win most the time, if they succeed in taking me off my feet.
:)
i LOOOOOVE striking tho, use mostly my hands with lots of sweeps.

fa_jing

05-23-2003, 09:26 AM

If I was indestructable or at least could heal from all injuries within a few months time, I would glady fight MMA. It would be far and away the best sport.

However, my experience on even a lower level has shown that this is not the case.

Mr.Sleazy

05-23-2003, 10:23 AM

I am not a KFu'er, instead I am a pankration guy, but with not much experience (year of training) I entered a MMA tournament in Vancouver BC.

Tiger Balm tournament (lots of Kung Fu stuff there too including San Shou, forms and weapons), but there was also a pankration event -

Open to all styles, rules are no elbows or knees to head, no knees or striking to the head on ground, shinpads must be worn.

There were novice and advanced divisions, also weight categories. This event was good for me - lots of competition at my own level, I did OK and no serious injuries.

Sport Jiujitsu is similar, but a bit more restrictive in the rules. I am not knowledgeable about the tournament scene, but I would guess there are a number of events like these available in larger centres, especially it seems the west coast. You get some serious competition experience, but don't have to "step in the ring" yet. Its really MMA for everyman.

Check that out, I would have loved to see some crazy "monkey style" stuff in that event, I think it would have been cool to watch or spar against.

Oso

05-23-2003, 11:05 AM

The guys I'm training with now gave me a tape of the 98 World Sport JJ tournemant. It was pretty cool but at the time way too much sport 'kumite' action as you could win by points or submition. I saw a bunch of fast guys bouncing in and out to score quick body or head shots. The takedowns weren't all that impressive mainly being grabs and pulls with the bodyweight. Better grapplers were being beaten on points by really, really quick movers. I'm told that things have changed a bit since 98 and the kumite guys aren't winning as much as the grapplers have gotten a better handle on deflecting the punches on the way to the clinch.

We are training to evade and/or deflect the incoming attacks; deliver strikes on the way in and get the takedown. You can get points for each succesful strike and the takedown, but the other guy can get points on you if he hits you, even if you get the takedown.

wow, that's not a very cohesive explanation...
well, I'm still trying to get a grasp of the ruleset, hope it made sense.

I think if you search for IJJF you can find a written copy of the rules.

Edmund

05-23-2003, 05:20 PM

Guys,

Those events sound cool - "MMA for everyman".
Do they use those fingerless gloves?

Oso

05-23-2003, 05:45 PM

the sport jujitsu uses just those cotton padded things on the hands and the cotton shin instep protectors. so even though it's supposed to not be totally a full contact event...................

Merryprankster

05-24-2003, 09:08 PM

the other guy can get points on you if he hits you, even if you get the takedown.

This is why sparring "light contact," when you are testing out your "striking defenses" to grappling is a ****-poor idea. You have NO idea if it will really change things, but a "light" session treats it like it will! Then it leads to the above lame ass assumptions.

Once you know, of course, you can go back and do it light... but you gotta KNOW!

Oso

05-25-2003, 05:26 AM

I'm not sure what you meant in your reference to my post. Where is the assumption that a strike will stop a grappling attack?

I agree with what you are saying, I think. But I was talking specifically about the ruleset for sport jujutsu, which is mainly point based. I don't like the ruleset. I think a takedown should be worth more points IF THE RULESET IS POINT BASED.

I related my experience and knowledge of the competition because several guys were curious about what else was out there. It's not a NHB event but I think it can be looked at like a bridge to NHB if that is what someone is interested in.

Dark Knight

05-25-2003, 09:10 AM

The reason that a throw does not give more points is because it will not be a fight ender. In the street a good throw could end a fight. But IJJF didnt want one throw end a match like an Ippon in Judo. This way you have to be a well rounded fighter to win.

In IJJF you have a limited time on the ground, so a submission may not be possible becuase you dont have enough time like a NHB event.

The fighting includes kicking and punching, throws, take downs and ground fighting.

Sport JJ is a lot of fun. its not big enough here in the US to find the great fighters (in sport JJ) like in Europe.

Any style can enter, just have to fight by the rules (As with any sport).

There is also a DUO (technique) division. It is a competition of techniques. The judges tell you what kind of attack and you respond to it.

The fighting part is not absolutly realistic, light to heavy contact, no elbows, and other areas you can point out. But it is fighting and training in the areas of striking, throwing and ground fighting in an alive arena.

I would reccomend it as a great training tool. Aslo I would reccomend fighting at the national tournaments because not many people do right now and you have a really good chance of winning. (Now you can tell your friends that you are a national JJ champion)

Go to www.usjjf.org and order one of the championship tapes. I like the 1998, its laid out cleaner. Its just $20.00

Dark Knight

05-25-2003, 09:18 AM

On the other hand if you wanted to have the information to train like the NHB guys, but what will work to really beat the snot out of everyone, go to www.straightblastgym.com and order Funtional JKD, the first series. Everyone should own a copy of this no matter what style you do.

Matt covers how to train properly (the most important part), great striking training, the clinch was exceptionl and ground fighting.

He adresses elbows effectivly, fighting with shoes on, eye strikes... But they do fight in NHB and lots of training info on being a well rounded NHB fighter.

Merryprankster

05-25-2003, 12:38 PM

Nah Oso, I didn't think you did. I was saying, more as a general concept, that this is how stupid ideas get propagated in the MA's. Somebody says "Oh, well I think this is how I'd deal with that," they practice it light contact against a partner at medium or slow speed (and that partner has never done 'x' technique in his/her life) and then they decide, "yeah..that should work."

Then, they TEACH it as a counter or defense.

And the dumb idea gets propagated!

Harder Contact=less dumb ideas :D

Oso

05-25-2003, 01:45 PM

DK, thanks for the additional input, i've only been training by those rules for a couple of months and we don't spar often enough for me to get them worked out. I've also not been around this particular school long enough to get invited to any of the private workouts...soon I hope. Overall, I think the Sport Jujitsu rules are ok, and fun to work with and it is pretty much the hardest training school in town...except for mine of course:D...I just only have beginners so no real workout for me...bonus is that several of the guys I train with there have competed at the nationals and one went to worlds a couple of years ago.

MP, ok, didn't mean to be all stiff in response, just didn't understand what you meant.

chingei

05-25-2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
it's still getting used to crowds, nerves and lights.

Nerves, ok. But lights and crowds and whatnot are pretty quickly forgotten once the **** gets going.

Merryprankster

05-25-2003, 02:43 PM

Hey, some people get nervous about different things.

chingei

05-25-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Hey, some people get nervous about different things.

I was afraid you'd say that.

Dark Knight

05-25-2003, 05:51 PM

Oso, your with Carl Wilcox.

Make sure you go to the nationals this year. Its still small in this country, work hard and you have a chance of placing.

Ill fight in the senors this time, its i Buffalo NY in October. The Ju-Jitsu North American Union Summer Camp is in DC next month.

Oso

05-25-2003, 06:21 PM

DK, I guess you have your email/pm blocked to keep miscreants from pestering you:)

bingo on Shihan Wilcox. Are you part of Kwanmukan? I've been having a blast and only wish we could pick up the pace a bit.

I was invited to go to Nationals with them and certainly plan to do so.

glad to have sort of made your aquaintence:)