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View Full Version : Should we police our own?



Serpent
05-21-2003, 11:16 PM
Just about everyone agrees that styles like Chung Moo, Shaolin-Do, Temple Kung Fu, etc. are complete shams and seriously damage the reputation of genuine CMA's, right?

Well, should we police these people ourselves, the old fashioned way. i.e. Go to the school and demand traidional gong sau wherein you fight the school's senior students. If you defeat them, you then fight the school's teacher. If you defeat him then the school has to close down.

What do you think? Surely it's up to us to protect the integrity of our arts?

joedoe
05-21-2003, 11:28 PM
That ain't a bad idea. Unfortunately we now live in a pussified society where that won't be allowed to happen, and you will most likely just have the cops called on you.

Serpent
05-21-2003, 11:32 PM
Yeah, but if we arranged with the cops that we would look after our own, perhaps we could sort something out.

Besides, it would be fun to kick Sin The's arse, even if you did get busted for it.

joedoe
05-21-2003, 11:36 PM
There are a lot of people whose arses would be fun to kick :D

Serpent
05-21-2003, 11:39 PM
Indeed!

Laughing Cow
05-21-2003, 11:40 PM
Hey.

Maybe we could be agents of the FTC and see if what they do matches what they advertise??

joedoe
05-21-2003, 11:53 PM
I still think Temple Kung Fu rules :D

Serpent
05-21-2003, 11:56 PM
What's FTC?

Laughing Cow
05-21-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
What's FTC?

Fair
Trade
Commission.

Serpent
05-21-2003, 11:59 PM
Aha. ACCC over here. Good idea!

neit
05-22-2003, 12:34 AM
i definatly think some "policing" should be done. however, you will not see me doing it.

neit
05-22-2003, 12:51 AM
sometimes it is best just to "shun" the "un-desirables".

Dark Knight
05-22-2003, 08:57 AM
You need to cut the serpants head off. There are many organizations just dying to sell a rank certificate that says you can do anything.

Go to Phil Porter and say you have your own style of American Kick Butt Kung Fu, and he will do a rank certificate and instructor certificate.

And there are a hundred other organizations willing to do the same, make you a Soke or whatever you want to be called.

Next is how do you standardize? Look at Villari/USSD... They teach Shaolin Kempo Karate. It is Villaris creation. There is no Shaolin in it, but Villari makes it clear that it is his style. So do you walk in and say "You dont teach real Shaolin!" and the guy agrees with you because its Villaris style. What do you do next?

On the other hand if Someone hangs a sign and states he teaches real KF as passed down to him from won hung guy, then you have at least a point.

People dont always know whats legitamate from whats not. Thats why there should be governing bodies in the styles. (To be one in reality you have to be in the world games, Olympics... But thats another discussion)

By haveing an official body, if you dont have a certificate hanging from them, then you are not legitamate.

As an example if you are a TKD Black Belt you want to be with ITF or WTF, In Judo, USJA, USJF, In Karate US National Karate Federation, In Ju-Jitsu US Ju-Jitsu Federation. Yudo US Yudo Federation, Hapkido ...

I realize that if you have a certificate from a recognized master who is known to be the leader of the style, it does add legitamacy, but life would be easier if people held that certificate with one from a major governing organization.

Then when someone claims their Sifu/master/soke is legitamate, you ask why the international organizations dont recognize them.

Radhnoti
05-22-2003, 08:58 AM
I think this is a great idea.
Shun everyone with questionable history/teaching methods/etc.
Let's see...questionable history:
Anyone that traces their lineage back to the southern shaolin temple...anyone not wearing traditional Chinese uniforms...anyone with non-Chinese characters in the name (sorry JKD guys)...anyone who traces their lineage back to a questionable character in Chinese history (like Ta Mo?)...anyone on a power trip (there goes MOST the traditional teachers I've heard of)...etc.

In the end, we have MAYBE 5% of the current number of CMA teachers that would qualify...and they greatly resemble ancient Chinese history reinactment actors. Oh yeah, the other 95% of the schools will still say that what the "real" teachers are doing is junk. I love it, I say go for it.

;)

Edit: DK's idea has merit, but will never happen. Getting CMA teachers to go the same way is like "herding cats".

Shaolin-Do
05-22-2003, 09:02 AM
I think you SHOULD police.
And start with shaolin do.
And start with the school in san antonio on perrin beitel.
Do that.
...
...
...
bahahaha.
WD comes down this summer. He will be able to attest to the ability of SD.
maybe not the school... but I promise you I will whoop some azz.

Shaolin-Do
05-22-2003, 09:02 AM
I think you SHOULD police.
And start with shaolin do.
And start with the school in san antonio on perrin beitel.
Do that.
...
...
...
bahahaha.
WD comes down this summer. He will be able to attest to the ability of SD.
maybe not the school... but I promise you I will whoop some azz.
speaking of which.....
WD should be heading down here in like...
2 weeks.
:)
but my arm wont be better for 3 1/2
:(

Shaolin-Do
05-22-2003, 09:03 AM
why did it post it before 2 times?
hmmm.........................
very strange.

Dark Knight
05-22-2003, 09:39 AM
Edit: DK's idea has merit, but will never happen. Getting CMA teachers to go the same way is like "herding cats".

Exactly. MArtial Arts have been running wild for too long.

The next problem is there are hundreds of organizations running around that sell rank. Now you can claim to be a 7th degree and buy 20 certificates to back it up. Now you can say 20 different organizations recognize me as a...

Shaolin Do puts out something else to think about. What if you challenge someone who may not be legitamate in a style, but can kick everyones butt. I met a kickboxer who had 6 months training and was beating fighters left and right in the ring.

So now you show up at a school, challenge the guy and he breaks a couple of your bones, you look up with one eye shut, bleeding from the nose, mouth and ears and say"Yea,....but your not teaching real KF.."

(That is not a comment on wether or not SD is legitamate)

Shaolin-Do
05-22-2003, 09:42 AM
I know people with no ma training at all who would beat the sh!t out of a lot of people with ma training I know....
hehe
:)
I was a little inebriated this weekend and threatened to beat up 2 dudes with my 1 good arm... lofl....
they still backed down....
bahahahahahaha
(they rolled my friend a couple weeks ago, so I planned on takin care of business)

:D

Liokault
05-22-2003, 11:15 AM
But if we did that there would in the end only be 1 school!!

Would it be a TCMA school?...I think not.

apoweyn
05-22-2003, 11:20 AM
I doubt that associations and legislation are the answer. And I know that school challenges aren't. Educate the populace so they know what they're looking at. Too many legitimate martial artists go along with the 'don't talk about what we do' approach. So the only sources of information end up being the charlatans.


Stuart B.

David Jamieson
05-22-2003, 11:28 AM
First of all, who here is qualified to police anything about the martial arts?

some are for fighting, some are ritualistic and some are hybridized of these.

some are style specific and not for the streets, IE:closed school contests and merely keeping alive a tradition.

There are too many p.o.v's on how to punch right for pete's sake!

some schools say do this, some say do that, both ways are effective.

point is, anyone of us has limited scope in regards to the whole body of martial teachings available.

just because anyone of us has trained for 10 years, or five, or twenty or what have you, our only point of true reference is that which we have tasted directly. The rest is speculation and conjecture and the only way to tell someone in the martial arts that what they are doing is wrong is to prove it through crossing hands and demonstrating whyit's wrong.

If you are not prepared to do that, then why wax on about how this or that should be policed!??

What's in a name anyway? It's all about perspective.
Keep practicing in your own small corner and be happy in it. That's all there really is in the end. Go out and test yourself, because you certainly can't test your whole style with any consistency outside of your own personal experience and those who would cross hands with you.

cheers

apoweyn
05-22-2003, 12:06 PM
Nicely said, Kung Lek.

[and the earth trembled]

norther practitioner
05-22-2003, 12:07 PM
ditto what AP said...

Hard to do... telling people they suck and all, and to some you'd be taking their lively hood... good or bad.

Brad
05-22-2003, 12:35 PM
Go to the school and demand traidional gong sau wherein you fight the school's senior students. If you defeat them, you then fight the school's teacher. If you defeat him then the school has to close down.

What do you think? Surely it's up to us to protect the integrity of our arts?
I think the school's would still stay open, and the challengers would all end up in prison :p

As for the morality of these challenges, I guess it depends on what the school is claiming. If they're coming out and saying they can kick anyone's @ss and so on, then they're asking for it. That's pretty much a chalenge to anyone not in their organization.

But, then again, what's really gained from these fights on a large scale? Like the TWS vs. Remuul fight... all that happened is TWS decided he was training realistically enough. SD is still the same as it's allways been.

Judge Pen
05-22-2003, 02:41 PM
There's a TKD school in Knoxville that claims that one of their uber-black belts can beat any other local black-belt and they are claiming $100k if anyone prooves them wrong. I inquired because I was sceptical and because I was curious. They never returned my calls or sent me any information.

Later I found a former student of this school who told me that it was all a sham. The "master" of the school was the sole judge of the competition. If you won the round, he called it a tie. If you knocked the guy out, he "disqualified" you. If you were losing, he wouldn't stop the fight until you quit or got the bewezus beat out of you. I think a school like this is asking to be taken down a notch, but they apparently refuse to submit to an objective format. They also refuse to attend open tournaments and keep everything closed off.

The point is its difficult to impossible to self-police schools like this. Every art imposes their own standards and if they refuse to cooperate, then what do you do?

norther practitioner
05-22-2003, 02:51 PM
they apparently refuse to submit to an objective format.

For some reason I just go the image of two guys in gis playing knuckles.....:D


Places like that are unfortunate, if people are ignorant enough to not see the hype, or simply don't care, then so be it.

shaolin kungfu
05-22-2003, 02:55 PM
Every art imposes their own standards and if they refuse to cooperate, then what do you do?

Beat them silly.

neit
05-22-2003, 03:40 PM
the thing about "shams" or "McDojo" is that they would not exist if nobody enrolled in them. perhaps educating the public about legitimate martial arts would be a better idea. people need to understand that just because someone is a martial arts teacher that you can't trust them 100%. when i went for an interview at "temple kung-fu" i knew they were bogus not because of my previous knowledge of martial arts but the way they treated me. the fact that they acted like used car salesmen i knew something was up.

also, it is important to note that those who need "policing" are not necessarily unskilled. it is that they pretend to be something they are not. my instructor trained with "O.E.Simon" for several months many years ago. he said that although he left because simon was a complete fake, simon himself was a pretty skilled fighter. unfortunatly lying is not a very punishable crime.

Serpent
05-22-2003, 07:06 PM
You all realise this was a joke thread, right?

Look at joedoe's "Could Someone please..." thread.

;)

joedoe
05-22-2003, 07:09 PM
No, no. It is serious. We should go on a rampage of destruction to cleanse the MA world of shysters. :D

Laughing Cow
05-22-2003, 07:12 PM
Hey, if we do that KFO will become a very quiet and lonely place to hang out.

:D :D

sn0w8lade
05-23-2003, 04:04 PM
I def think this kind of self-policing should be done

Far too many McDojos give real martial arts bad name

Stacey
05-23-2003, 04:29 PM
I walked into a tkd studio and asked for Master Kim. Of course almost all TKD masters are named Master Kim. Well i did mantis before and have been studying bjj so this clown had no chance. I challenged him and even though he played at being all pacifist, he was getting ****ed. Finally he made m sign a waiver, his secretary was looking at me like I was challenging God....well I didn't buy it. This guy wasn't my god.

We squared off. I expected him to come in kicking, but he waited. He was probably planning to counter with a spinning kick. I was right. I went in with strait knees and peppered his face. I flanked him and grabbed him around the waist. I could tell that he has zero grappling experience because he kept trying to stomp and head butt.

I did a nasty mantis trick, I grabbed his pills. He didn't show pain at firsts, but when I squeezed them hard enough he folded, I pansed him and used the opportunity to try to put him in a scorpian hold. He was folded though and his had strong abs. I threw his legs down and got a side mount. Every time he went to pull up his pants I hit him in the head and screamed "I learned this in Prison...beyotch" (I'm not gay, nor have I done time, but it sure scared him.) I got a back mount and was working the choke. I switched sides and he tapped like a loser. I kept choking though. I told him that once he was asleep I was gonna have sex with his secretary and shove some nunchucks up his butt. He suddenly got strong and threw me off. I kicked him in the solar plexus and winded him. The secretary was calling the cops so I ran away.

So much for quality control.

Leimeng
05-25-2003, 02:31 AM
~ Those that can do, those that can't talk. Or so it seems.
~ Let them be. What difference should it make? As long as what you learn is legitimate and quality and you are capable of taking care of yourself and your loved ones, why are you worried about Fred McKempo? Let other people learn their. It is good for the economy and provides for some discipline for children whose parents are unwilling or unable to provide it to them at home. If you are really concerned about them learning quality stuff, then start to offer classes by yourself. ( I actually did that for a while, but I find that traditional training gives you about a 5% retention rate for students over a 12 month period.) Luckly I was offering the classes for free to some neighborhood kids. Would have been totally broke and poor if I had to ask for money. Oh, wait a second, I am totally broke and poor anyway.... hehe
~ Train hard and become the best you can be for yourself for your family and for GOD. Everything else will take care of itself.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue