Chu Sau Lei Chi Sau Faat

[Mckind13]

The best way to get to know the Chi Sau Lei Chi Sau Faat (Robert Chu’s key word methods for Chi Sau) is to read his article.

http://chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_chisao.html

In my next post I will describe the first method. And so on as long as there is interest. Please no trolls. The best way to discuss this would be to compare the points with points you may use in your system of Wing Chun.

For instance,

Rene might describe the 12 keywords of Sum Nung Wing Chun
Jim R. has key methods for hid Kou Lau (sp) system
Chango may be qualified to talk about the Chi Sim 14 Kiu Sau methods
One of the HFY or VTM members may be able to talk about the HFY methods.

Thanks

[Mckind13]

Point one:
1. Mun Fa/ Yin Fa - Asking/inquiring and enticing. Asking can be done with the hands, pressure, body, steps, and technique. In asking, you pressure the opponent and use 4 ounces to offset his 1000 pounds.
Everyone uses Mun Sau. This does not wholly refer to the hand position, but rather to the idea of inquiring about your opponent’s energy and intention.

I may equalize and wait
I may add energy to an opponent’s bridge
I may be soft and yielding or firm and unyielding

The method of asking is to see what my opponent will do.
When I attack or apply pressure, will he rush in, will he step away, will he stay in place.

I might inquire by striking stepping or kicking, or by adjusting, evading or withdrawing.

Mun Sau is surveillance and preparation. It functions at Chi Sau range or from across the room.

I will answer some questions to this before we proceed.

Mun Sau is listening.

Thanks, Peace, Love

David

[Wingman]

Mun Sau is surveillance and preparation. It functions at Chi Sau range or from across the room.
How would you execute mun sao (surveillance and preparation) if there is no contact?

[Mckind13]

Good question Wingman.

In Chi Sau, our bridges can be used to feel the opponent. The bridges, through experience gain sensitivity and the ability to add an extra dimension to the experience. I am no longer just dependent on sight, I have the sense of touch as well. In my example, when in contact there are many ways to gain information as well as feed information to an opponent to entice him in to acting or reacting.

The same can be done outside of contact.

Mun Fa/Yin Fa is a mental method. It is a way of thinking. I can apply the idea of asking/inquiring from any point in time.

Just like a good football team might watch footage of the other teams plays, so might I watch you Chi Sau before touching your hands, or talk to your training partners to see how they like to Chi Sau.

If I have no time to prepare or the conditions are unfriendly, there is still allot of information to be derived from an opponent pre-contact in the seconds before we engage.


I can read body language.
- Are you calm? I could agitate you.
- Are you angry? I could sooth you.
- Running your mouth? I could cut you off.
- Silent and brooding? I could get you to talk
I can put obstacles between you and I to see how you react.
I can face you with intention or pretend not to notice.
If you are far enough away I can present the side, front or even back (dangerous) of my body to see how you approach me.

There are many elements to be considered.


Sharing the methods of my family happily and openly!

David

[yuanfen]

David-
what you have elaborated so far is not unique to any one person-
just the author's verbalization of fundamental principles.

I have not read the whole article carefully- but a quick glance
confirms the above as well.

There are different verbal ways of expressing these things.
Then there is understanding, practice and application.

((In a hurry- since my dog is offerring his mun sao---early in the morning- walk time))

joy

[t_niehoff]

Hi Joy,

yuanfen wrote:

what you have elaborated so far is not unique to any one person-
just the author's verbalization of fundamental principles. . . I have not read the whole article carefully- but a quick glance
confirms the above as well. . . There are different verbal ways of expressing these things. Then there is understanding, practice and application. JC

Exactly. WCK must share the same fundamental principles or it wouldn't be WCK. No lineage "owns" them. Individual expression will vary depending on our latent talents, skill, and understanding.

Terence

[Mckind13]

Terence

Thank you, you have hit the nail right on the head.

Robert Chu's methods are not unique or new in the sense that they have never been seen before.

What he created was a way to take many of the very basic broad brushstrokes from the art and look at them through the lens of Chi Sau.

These methods are tools, they exist where Wing Chun exists.

I will make the world a better place!

David :D

[reneritchie]

David,

Yuen Kay-San's 12 methods differ from this slightly in that they're not intended solely for Chi Sao (though of course they can be applied to that dynamic as they can most others).

Why I point this out is that in Chi Sao, we too stress the Mun concept, perhaps paramount. But in the SYF (Sup Yee Faat), we stress Dap first.

Dap is literally to join two bridges (kiu). It doesn't speak to letting the opponent go first and then cutting them off (jeet), or in going first and asking (mun) what they will do, if anything, to stop you. Either is possible, it just speaks to the connection, not which of the several ways you'll get there.

Why not more specific? In combat, it is not paint by numbers, it is not "bullet time", it is not chess-like move-countermove. Anything can happen, and thus you cannot preplan, cannot anticipate, you can only depend on the hard work (kung fu) you put in to build the proper reflexes (ability to assume structurally supported alignment and geometrically efficient angles under high stress that will hold up to pressure) at the right time. If you then have the luxury of extra time to get into a strategic thought process (eg. a duel) great, you'll only do better. But if you lack the time (eg. an ambush) no problem, you won't fall apart.

Joy, Terence,

Exactly. To draw on Joy's old analogy, same subject, each teacher with their own text book and method of transmission. Otherwise it wouldn't be WCK, or we'd be the machines (insert T2 music...)

[Mckind13]

Thank you Rene,

My guess without going to the source, is that Mun is used as the first key word because the list is based on a Chi Sau format.

So Dop just deals with the concept of creating a bridge?

This means that whether you attack, jeet or recieve the opponents energy the first goal is to join bridges. The afterwards you might stick, circle, or use a technique?

Peace... I am gone!

David

[reneritchie]

David,

Yup, even if (hopefully!) that bridge is my fist in their face. Without Dap, unless we're using missile weapons, there's no fight.

Agreed about Man.

[PaulH]

David and Rene,

I enyoy your very lucid explanation of the WC concepts. I have some premature questions but I rather wait till the whole thing is done. Just want to say thank you for your good will and generous sharing.

Regards,

[Mckind13]

Paul,

I'll post the second key word or Chi Sau Faat tonight, but please ask in the meantime.


Peace

David

[PaulH]

I am not sure that I understand your discussion on the joining concept. I quote your clarifying question to Rene:

"So Dop just deals with the concept of creating a bridge?

This means that whether you attack, jeet or recieve the opponents energy the first goal is to join bridges. The afterwards you might stick, circle, or use a technique? "

Which Rene confirmed and stated also that hitting him in the face is a way of joining.

Is hitting and joining the same or different? Do you break the hitting action into 2 phases, i.e., connecting and then power application?

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Paul,

We use the hammer and nail analogy. First you place the nail against the wall and press slightly to make sure there's something to go into. Then you hit it with the hammer.

[PaulH]

Thanks, Rene. My 2nd question is what do you seek to join? If I give you a fake punch, a false signal, or a false intention, do you join it first? How do you avoid chasing hands in the joining concept?

Regards,

[Mckind13]

Paul,

I do not of course speak for Rene:

Dop seems to be creating contact. It does not have to be bridge on bridge nor is it automated in the sense that once it starts it cannot be withdrawn or changed to a different method.
In the case of a fake, I could still touch and create a bridge, strike to create a bridge, or change tactics if your fake out did not present the opportunity to dop.

These key phrases as I see them are not A to B to C instructions but instead insight into the nature ot the art.
For the point Dop it suggests Dop (touch) to link to the other methods. It is not mandatory.

In The Chi Sau methods of Robert Chu, Mun Sau is a method of determining energy and intention of your opponent.

Thanks much,

David

[PaulH]

Okay, I see your points. It makes sense. Thanks again for sharing your insight.

Regards,

[Mckind13]

While I still hope to get more people interested in the Chu Sau Lei methods of Chi Sau and open discussion with other branches, I will post the 2nd method we use to describe Chi Sau.
Jou Fa - Running - avoiding pressure or running from pressure, using pressure to give rise to new situations/techniques
This is very simple, but hard to put a fine point on.
upon feeling pressure, I can choose to run away or around the energy.
- This may be used to circumvent a heavy Fuk Sau and follow through with a strike.
- It may be used to flow around pressure and set up a technique.
- Additionally rather then just running the hands away from the pressure, we could run the entire body out of the path of oncoming force and then flowing back in again.
Conversely
- I can add energy to an opponent and cause him to run. effectively setting up and initiating a more well placed attack.
- By running from pressure I can again entice the other person to attack or move, thus creating an opening.
Running is simple but can be overused. If we run to much, it is a sickness. Always moving away from pressure is akin to always attacking when pressure is given

Find a balance

David

[spyder]

They seem the same as what I was taught.

Spyder

[Wingman]

Hi David,

Jou Fa - Running from or avoiding pressure. Am I correct to say that in Jou Fa there is lesser contact between you & your opponent? If so, how do you "listen" or gather information about your opponent with lesser contact?

[Mckind13]

I ma sure they are.

If a teacher stays close to the methods the art will stay on track. Teach without teaching the core methods and principles and Wing Chun looses something.

David

[reneritchie]

In terms of fakes, rather than the SYF, we have Yiu Kuet (Important Rhymed Formulaes) that cover, as follows:

You Yieng Juk Lao
Mo Yieng Po Jung

Have Impression, must stay
No impression, cleave center

Yieng (Shadows/Impressions) are differentiated from Ying (Shapes/Forms) in that the latter is verifiable (you see a punch coming towards you, for example) while the former is not (you see a flicker of movement out of the corner of you eye but there is no time to determine what it is or if its exact trajectory will cause harm to you). So, the first part of the formula relates that if the impression turn out to be true, you have your contact point and go from there (we can discuss the YKS 2nd SYF tomorrow, perhaps). If, however, the impression turns out to be false, you cleave back to the center so your bridges do not stay out of position and leave you open to a real attack, or smash the center as the opponent tries to change from their fake to their real attack (which also brings us in to the second of the SYF).

Spyder, WCK being WCK, the words should all be similar, and some of the interpretations, different teachers will just structure them differently, like a Yale text vs. a Harvard text, for example.

[Mckind13]

Hi Wingman.


Jou Fa outside of contact would be hard. If it occurred it would be more like evading and then reengaging.

In contact, when I run, I can chose to stay very close and maintain more contact or give up some (but almost never all) contact.
- Huen is a good example of keeping allot of contact and sensativity. I run from the pressure but maintain the elements of listening as well as other energies and methods applied along the arm such as sticking to the bridge as well as the pressing, pulling, sinking or lifting energies. I might just hit them as well.
- Your questions concers when I choose to maintain less contact and for what purposes. One purpose would be to mask my intentions from my opponent. By quickly running and feeding him little information my Jou Da (running strike) has the advantage of being silenced to his sensitivity.
- Similarly I may lighten up with the intent of enticing my opponent into action. In this case my structure and positioning are very important because in this case I too could loose some sensitivity.
- Finally I will say that when running, breaking contact alltogether is a highly risky endeavor due to it shutting down some of the feeling and sticking element of Chi Sau. What Rene might call Mo (feel) and Chi (Stick).
- On the other hand, with good structure and awareness I can run and still be very secure in my ability to close off many of my opponents points of attack and entry.

Thanks, peace love etc

David

[PaulH]

Rene,

I enjoy your reply to that fake entry.

David,

If I reverse the role, what can I do to improve my chance to detect and defeat his running energy? Also, can you use Jou Fa against boxer's combo practically speaking?

Thanks,

[Mckind13]

Paul,

To reverse the roles, you need to start with two things: Precise, structurally sound techniques and allot of practice to improve your awareness.

The techniques need to be on the mark so that Wing Chun's natural structure makes it hard for the person to run and hard when he does to find an easy entry point. Learning to adjust appropriately in response to stimulus will help greatly.

You need practice to improve your awareness of how a partner or opponent may try to set up the run or set you up to cause you to run. Playing with minute variation and continuous repetition of specific entry helps, but this then needs to be put to the test in real Chi Sau

When it comes down to it, practice is key. The Chi Sau Faat (methods) simply gives you points of focus to train and to watch for. Recognizing what your opponent may do and being able to act accordingly is paramount.

*****I see lots of people reading this thread but non posting, common guys/gals lets get some feedback or ask some questions*****

Thanks

David

[dzu]

PaulH

As the saying goes, "There is no unbeatable teachnique".

It's like Rock/Paper/Scissors..which one is best?

If my opponent runs, I can cleave the center to intercept him. I could also entice him by giving pressure knowing full well that he will run from it. Knowing that he will intercept, I can apply pressure so that as he intercepts him, but I am expecting it and so intercept his his interception!

It's really up to your level of cultivation in comparison to your opponent and using the right application at the right time. The better your transition skills and sensitivity, the better your ability to manipulate and control the opponent. All the methods can be looked at as Mun Sao since each one asks the opponent a question. His reply will then determine your next question, etc.

Jou Fa doesn't work on it's own without a person. What makes it work is your level of cultivation in applying it. One person might be able to use it against a boxer, whereas another person might not.

Dzu

[Mckind13]

Thanks Dzu,

You Stud!

David

[kj]

Originally posted by Mckind13
*****I see lots of people reading this thread but non posting, common guys/gals lets get some feedback or ask some questions*****

You're doing a fine job of explaining and elaborating on your model. Looking forward to more.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[spyder]

What is Chu Sau Lei and why would I want one?

Arn't all techniques beatable? My teacher can beat all mine. Arn't all techniques unbeatable? I can't beat any of my teachers.

Spyder

[Mckind13]

Spyder,

It is late and I will post the third methods in the morning.

All techniques are beatable.

All methods can be overcome.

The trick is to use the methods as a lense for both applying and responding to energy given by an opponent.
If I understand that my Sifu (for instance) always beats me by a method called running. Then I can make a study of running energy. I would study the use of it, how it is initiated, and how to dissolve running energy. Once I fully understand the dynamics of it, it will at once be more difficult to apply against me and easier for me to read those that are using this strategy. Likewise I will have a greater awareness of a method of application that previously I did not have.

David

[Mckind13]

Back from a full day training

Jeet Fa - Methods of intercepting - beating the opponent to the strike, recognizing threat and immediately shutting it off with the hands, body or steps.

Jeet is a great method. It deals with intercepting on all levels.

Intention - Before my partner even tries to attack me, he must want to attack, or intend to throw a punch for example. If my sensitivity is good and my partner is not so good at hiding his intent I can shut off the attack before the word go.

Initiation - As the technique initiates, it often lacks perfect mechanics and structure. The arm may not be extended enough to prevent me from collapsing it or the power may not be developed enough to keep me from jamming the attack.

Development - as the attack develops, I may have to intercept with my own techniques. Counter punching or inserting a Tan/Bong/Fook into the path of the oncoming punch. It is better of course to catch the attack early because once the punch is developed, it is hard to stop and also it may be in a better position for the attacker to counter your jeet or follow through with another attack.

Tools - Tools of interception use the bridge, the body, and the mind.
The bridges are simple enough. Use the Chuie or one of the three seeds to intersect and cut off the attack.
The body can also be used in this way to close and smother the opponent but also, since it is the target, it can be moved closer or further away to disrupt the intention of the attacker.
Finally, the mind can be used to intercept the opponents intentions. He wants to hit me, but every time he sets me up I change before he can attack, or I present a target and then hide it again, anything that will 'Jeet' the intention of his strike.

As an example, country x wants to launch a missile at me.
I can shoot it down over my city
I can shoot it down over their country
I can shoot the launcher
I can shoot the telephone lines that the leader of the country uses to give the launch order...etc etc etc.
I can threaten the leader
I can assassinate the leader
I can point my missiles at the leader
I can use diplomacy with the leader

All these thousands of variations, while in a Chi Sou model may include some other methods, they also involve intercepting.

In my example I am using many ways to either intercept the actual attack, the method of attack or the reason for attack.


Thanks I am tired so if this post is clear as mud ask me to explain it better.

David

[PaulH]

Good posts, Dzu and David. With regard to Jeet Fa, it is not easy to intercept attacks that you are unfamiliar with. Since most of us train our lifetime within the WC framework and its 3 seed tools, how would you use this concept against unfamiliar styles like boxers, Muy Thai, Savate kickboxer, Grappler with their unorthodox attacks. Experience with different kind of fighters would help to develop your Jeet Fa, so my question is does a WC student has to go out testing against many of these kinds of fighters before he knows how to jeet well. Can it be taught without going through such exotic experience?

Regards,

[dzu]

PaulH,

The ideal situation is that I intercept when I sense his intention or when his attack begins to develop. This requires good timing, judge of distance, visual acuity, and proper structure to transfer power from the ground. Any movement/muscle twitch/etc. will trigger the response and the end result is that I don't know what the final attack will be because I have cut it off from the start.

In reality, however, our reaction to the unfamiliar can delay or disrupt our sense of timing. One way to resolve this is to make the unfamiliar, familiar. In my experience, the best way to gain this exposure is not to 'cross train' in other MA per se, but to workout with practitioners of other MA. I would recommend both cooperative drills and some uncooperative sparring/san sao. The focus should be on intercepting from the start when many attacks are physically similar (shoulder begins to drop, leg starts to lift or step, body starts to turn, weight starts to sink).

IMO, it is NOT a good idea to practice specific counters to different attacks. This path leads to a paint-by-numbers approach and hesitation in application.

Dzu

[t_niehoff]

Hi Dzu,

Dzu-THE-man wrote:

IMO, it is NOT a good idea to practice specific counters to different attacks. This path leads to a paint-by-numbers approach and hesitation in application. D

Yes, WCK does not micro-manage. And to build on what you and Dave have written, jeet does not literally mean 'intercept' but rather "cut-off" and that subtle distinction is IME significant. We first seek to "cut-off" the opponent's ability to launch an attack -- any attack, and if that fails we "cut-off" the specific attack itself. There are many methods (faat) of jeet: shocking the opponent, destroying his balance (both of these directly affect the opponent), flanking (moving to one side so that the other can't attack us), obstruction (jamming, trapping, etc.), range/distance (these last three don't affect the opponent), and combinations of the above. The significance of jeet faat is that the opponent will need to recover to attack or defend so that we have a free move, and in this way we can stay ahead of the timing. IMHO jeet is one of the core principles of WCK; a principle that informs everything we do. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Jeet is the second of the YKS/SN SYF. For us, it is to intercept, to cut off. We have a saying that the opponent should never be allowed to move more than once. The instant they move, you should Jeet, cut them off and render them incapable of further offense. Several things factor into this. Positioning is one. If you flank your opponent or have them flank themselves you can positionally cut them off (your relative positions will be where all your weapons can engage them and none of theirs can engage you; your meridian line will be pointing straight at their spine while theirs points off away from you completely). Likewise, if you're engaged with your opponent's arms and they try to kick, you can manipulate them with your arms to cut off the kick (play with their balance and momentum so that they stumble and their recovery reflexes are engaged, or are added to or subtracted from so that they over or undershoot their objective), etc.

This follows on naturally from Dap, where the bridges have been engaged, into what we do once their engaged. For example, a punch is coming in, my bridge rises and makes contact (it is formless at that stage since whatever form it takes will depend on the quality of the opponent's punch - rigid or flexible, stubborn or nimble, already expended or with power left to be spent, etc.). Once in contact, arm, waist, and body coordinate and, for example, perhaps Lap Sao is the best fit for the moment and I end up in a position facing them while they're twisted with their own arm in between me and them. (Note, while I'm describing each SYF separately, of course, they'll all really working together and astute observers will note Chi helped me determine how to Jeet, Mo keeps me locked on his center, etc.) This is why we refer to them as methods rather than linear stages.

[Mckind13]

Thanks guys for refining my kludgy post :)

Paul,

I agree that to refine our Wing Chun we need understand how an opponent will attack, not necessarily cross train.
Cross training can put bad habits in our wing chun, but training with skilled people will enlighten us to their methods.
On the other hand learning to throw a thai kick and the mechanics of that kick or how to shoot in may increases our awareness as well. I think we have to be careful though to stay true to the Wing Chun form or we will lose functionality.

David

[Mckind13]

Tao/Lou Fa - Methods of leaking and stealing, seeing an opportunity and taking it, or passively finding it


Hi guys, maybe Dzu can coment. I want to keep this thread going but have apaper to write.

Thanks

David

[reneritchie]

Tao (steal) and Lao (leak) are the 11th and 12th SYF (a few in SNWCK combine them together into a hybrid 11th and then add a 2nd hybrid pair (Kao Saat) for 12).

Tao as I understand it takes advantage of an opponent's inaction. If though error or circumstance (can't be in two places at once) they leave an exploitable hole, or can't cover a hole you force them to create, you can just go right in and start stealing (go in through the hole and start systematically opening it up and breaking them down, and ending the encounter).

Lao by contrast takes advantage of an opponent's action. This can also be the result of an error (they over act, too much movement, too much power, too much space, etc.) or circumstance (countering one thing sets them up for another)

[PaulH]

I suppose it all boils down to seizing opportunity to shoot the arrow into the ***** in the armor whenever it appears. In the chess game, the counter is quite interesting. As you start to come in, his pieces would take away your key positions (space) before you can launch the final attack and start to snipe away your pieces (timing) disrupting your whole stratagem. You are now caught in a quagmire. What best option do you have at this point? Can you steal or leak safely without ever walking into his trap? I notice JKD or BJJ are very good at this as they have excellent timing and space management.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Interesting analogy Paul! JKD derives from WCK so perhaps there is either ancestral or simply criterial overlap. BJJ hash the senshibility chu flow wif te go. ;)

[dzu]

Rene has already summed it up pretty well. To me, Tao/Lao really emphasizes freeing your hands, feet, and mind. It follows the concept of Yin/Yang.

If my partner is strong up top, I attack down below. If he's strong on the right, I attack on his left. If he has a certain timing, I find the timing and Biu (dart) when he is weakest. It is the cheap shot that sneaks in somehow. It can be used to distract, or set up the opponent for the finishing blow by finding or creating a crease in his defense. Once the crease is found, the body structure follows to disrupt and cleave the center.

The idea of Tao/Lao is not to be trapped because you are merely taking advantage of what the opponent gives you. If he changes, you change with him. There is no fixation on any one particular target or approach.

Dzu

[PaulH]

Thanks, Dzu and Rene. I agree. The leaking and stealing concepts to me suggest the changeability and natural flow of water. It reacts to the obstacles in its course by going elsewhere where it is least resisted. This is what change is all about. Nevertheless I also like the concept of the dam that contain such free flowing water. Here the opponent does not change giving you occasion to change accordingly; He bait and trap your water as you pour in to fill his empty hole.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hi Paul,

The water analogy is always good, but its important to remember that, unlike water (except in a James ******* flick ;), we're sentient, self-determistic entities, so we can choose to flow like water one minute, and then make an experienced, sensitive decision to change the next (to avoid being dammed or bottled up like Evian ;).

[PaulH]

Thanks for the reminder, Rene. While we are on the topic of the dam, I can't wait for this good thread to flow again.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Weird, C.a.m.e.r.o.n is being auto censored??

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Weird, C.a.m.e.r.o.n is being auto censored??

you sick pig.
:P

[Mckind13]

Hey Dogz

FInals are almost over so I will post the next key word tonight...maybe.

David

[Mckind13]

Thanks for the patience :)

Jiu Fa - common methods of Gor Sao (crossing hands) such as Tan Da, Pak Da, Lop Da, etc. in singular and combination. Typically, it is a technician's level of training.

Jiu Fa is simple. It is the use of specific techniques within the framework of Chi Sao.

Specifically, the Gor Sao techniques ar single or linked applications against your partner.

These techniques can be used in free practice
they can be drilled over and over to perfect timing, positioning and proper application of structure
specific techniques can be applied against specific attacks or against steadily more resistant partners.

Once the basics of Jiu Fa are understood, then we can link them the other methods. (i.e. Tan Da linked with the idea of jeet or with pressing drawing, sinking or floating.)

Thanks

David

[PaulH]

David,

Thanks again for your input. The Jiu fa that you wrote seems to be a very systematic, modular, controlled and structured approach to learning combat. In the fight it often has many other unknown variables from complex psychology mindset to more chaotic, fluctuating, dynamic, and unpreditable factors. If the goal is to maximize the benefits of winning in an actual fight, would it not be better to learn just the bare bone mechanics of the techniques and spend the majority of time testing the techniques against non WC partners where they can feed you real live energy of boxers, MT, BJJ, or street fighters? Your body will learn how to adapt more naturally. Or the Jiu Fa above already incorporate what I just write here?

Regards,

[Mckind13]

You have a very good point but :)

There is always a but!

(paul wrote) The Jiu fa that you wrote seems to be a very systematic, modular, controlled and structured approach to learning combat

It is and it is dynamic as well.
If we perfect a Tan Da against X% of resistance and increase it over time, add additional variables then this is an excellent method for a person to really get a technique.

(Paul H) In the fight it often has many other unknown variables from complex psychology mindset to more chaotic, fluctuating, dynamic, and unpredictable factors.

You have a very good point again, but as you have seen with the other Fa (methods) and as my favorite Bruce Lee shirt says, “don’t sweat the techniques!”
Jiu Fa/Gor Sou is for perfecting technical ability but really makes a difference in our training when we use it to understand three things. Proper timing of a technique, proper position in relation to an opponent, and proper use of structure (using ours, breaking theirs). When we have these three and technically accurate techniques then we can flow and deal with other systems and different methods of application others might use.


(Paul H) If the goal is to maximize the benefits of winning in an actual fight, would it not be better to learn just the bare bone mechanics of the techniques and spend the majority of time testing the techniques against non WC partners where they can feed you real live energy of boxers, MT, BJJ, or street fighters?

Hi Paul, sounds like the topic for another thread! The goal is two fold. Maximize efficiency and train good Wing Chun fundamentals. Even Boxers and BJJ guys do not spend a great deal of there time ‘sparring’. There are drills, exercises, functional training from within the framework of the fight (mock sparring or light sparring) and when they do go they do not go 100% all the time. To answer your question

…Master Wing Chun, be aware of how other systems operate and share/workout with as many of these arts as possible….

Just learning the bare bones and going for it stunts your learning curve and makes you sloppy!!!

(Paul H)Your body will learn how to adapt more naturally. Or the Jiu Fa above already incorporate what I just write here?

Being good helps you adapt so you want to train the basics really well, get the fundamentals down and train free form too. And Yes Jiu Fa and the Chi Sau Lei Chi Sau Fa does incorporate allot of this.

Thanks and night!

David

[PaulH]

Since we are still lingers on the Yiu Fa, I wonder if you can comment also on the Pak Da. Some WC people I know has a scary shocking power when they pak. It will hurl you backward on impact if you are not used to it. Do you practice this kind of energy and how do you train this? I think Terence was mentioning this kind of energy on some other threads earlier.

Regards,

[Mckind13]

Yes, we train it.

How do you develop it

train structure, know how to break structure

Thanks

David

[Mckind13]

Hi all...

Just so you don't think I am leaving you all high and dry I will comment on this guy tonight when I get home.

Sim Fa - Methods of evasion with steps, body displacement, dodging, or hand movement, but still being close enough to continue. There are two major methods: using the torso to evade (small evasion) or using steps to evade (large evasion).


See you all tonight

David

[PaulH]

Hey David et al,

It is written that good threads don't die, they just fade away. Come back when you can. Just to say that I miss your refreshing perspective and insight on this thoughtful discussion of WC concepts.

Regards,

[Mckind13]

Sim Fa - Methods of evasion with steps, body displacement, dodging, or hand movement, but still being close enough to continue. There are two major methods: using the torso to evade (small evasion) or using steps to evade (large evasion).

Sorry for the Pause!

Sim Fa is often easier experienced then talked about.

As a method of evasion we could look at it from evading the situation all together to getting out of the way of a strike.

From the point of view of Chi Sau, it seems to me that we could look at it as a matter of degrees and what evasion is and is not.

Stepping back or moving out of range is not technically evasion. It is more removing oneself from the situation at hand.

Evasion is getting out of the way or off the line of attack through motion. Stepping or shifting are very large examples of this. As we improve, we decrease the empty space between the attack and our body so that when we are better we have the option to let an attack slip along the body, maintaining contact without impact. Additionally, rather then just evading, we can guide the hand and body of the opponent with our own as well as evading so that the motions are again smaller.

Thanks

David