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mantis108
05-22-2003, 10:58 AM
On the other thread an important concept about power side forward in PM came up. I think it merits its own thread so, I open this thread as well. Lots of good info and point made, I will have to break it up and address them seperately.

First a recap:

<<<Tainan Mantis wrote:

Mantis108.
It is Diao Da Feng Tsuo in Mandarin.
Comparing different PM styles this Tsuo Chuei punch is almost exclusive to 7* PM.

GiantMantis,
I can understand if you personally favor right side, but why must all PM put the power side be forward?
There are good points to having the power side in back.

Look at the WHF Beng Bu book.
Half the pics are left side.

Mantis Siezes Cicada is left side and a lot of things are going on there.
Many roads of PM start with left side. I think this indicates that fighting with left side is very useful and important.

Also, Siezes Cicada or Double Sealing has a lot of parrallels to Northern Spear fighting.

If Wang Lang did any serious fighting it is hard to imagine that he wasn't an expert in weapons first and empty hand second.
Since PM shares a lot with Shaolin spear of the Ming dynasty it is possible he was a spear man-King of Weapons.

Spear, in Northern school, favors power side in back.
Essential movement of spear, Lan Na Zha, when done with out a weapon looks like Go Lou Tsai.
Coincidence?
This is just like in 2nd road of Beng Bu.

Also, if everyone in the school trains right side what happens when you meet Andy and he does left side?

For the fighters in your school to be comfortable facing a left sided fighter they themselves have to be proficient at it to provide training for other members in your school.

But the most important thing is that important PM forms have many techniques that start from the left side.>>>>

I would like to address the Tsuo Chui first. Thank you, Tainan, for the comment. I agreed with you on that the Tsuo (filing punch), which is kind of an upper cut, is rather unique in 7*. The interesting thing thought is that the word "rubbing" and "filing" in Chinese sound very much alike. However, rubbing punch (in TJPM/TJMHPM) is a right straight punch that "rubs" against the left palm or forearm as it shoots out (ie in Lanjie 3rd road). Even more confusing is the the same "rubbing" punch term, similar in action to the rubbing palm, in 7* can be interpreted as a Chin Na move. BTW, in Mimen Lanjie 3rd road, the rubbing punch is performed as an upper cut while in CCK TCPM the rubbing punch is performed as right straight punch rubs against the left palm as it shoots out. On related note, I believe that the "Discourse of Short Strikes" (AKA 18 styles poem) also mentioned "He Shou Tong Chui" technique(s) of Gin Sheung. Tong (Tian) Chui "through the sky punch" is a generic term for upper cuts in Chinese pugilistic volcab.

Mantis108

mantis108
05-22-2003, 01:45 PM
<<<I can understand if you personally favor right side, but why must all PM put the power side be forward?
There are good points to having the power side in back.>>>

Good point. But there is a difference between "must" and "preferred". I would say there is nothing wrong in preferring to fight with the power side forward in the case of PM. It's rather a stylistic issue than really a technical one (ie long vs short).

<<<Look at the WHF Beng Bu book.
Half the pics are left side.>>>

I would caution to example pictures this way.

<<<Mantis Siezes Cicada is left side and a lot of things are going on there.>>>

True, but then it starts off from right side and coming up to the left. CCK TCPM has a Sau Fa move under the same name (different stance), which I have shown you, can be started with right side forward and come up to the left side. It is about footwork more so than just the design of the stance IMHO. If done correctly, this switch is almost undetectable in a close range situation.

<<<Many roads of PM start with left side. I think this indicates that fighting with left side is very useful and important.>>>

Good point.

<<<Also, Siezes Cicada or Double Sealing has a lot of parrallels to Northern Spear fighting.

If Wang Lang did any serious fighting it is hard to imagine that he wasn't an expert in weapons first and empty hand second.
Since PM shares a lot with Shaolin spear of the Ming dynasty it is possible he was a spear man-King of Weapons.

Spear, in Northern school, favors power side in back.
Essential movement of spear, Lan Na Zha, when done with out a weapon looks like Go Lou Tsai.
Coincidence?
This is just like in 2nd road of Beng Bu.>>>

If indeed Wang Long created Bengbu, that's a big if too. :) Is it the spear or is it the saber (even staff)? This is rather theorectical. I would discus this later on when I have more time. Coincidently, the ready stance in Bengbu, feet together, fists chambered etc..., is called zhong Ping Sheung Chu (mid-level double collectiveness) in HK 7 Stars tradition. Zhong Ping Cheong (mid-level spear) is consider king of spear stances. BTW, would you elaborate on the 2nd road of Beng Bu comment?

<<<Also, if everyone in the school trains right side what happens when you meet Andy and he does left side?>>>

Well, I am of the opinion that if one is well versed in PM, he/she should be able to make the opponent fight the way he/she wanted. I think since Bruce Lee's time everyone goes on the craze about adapting to your opponent. What happen to you taking control of the fight? Adaptation is important to a counter fighting style such as boxing. Is it prudent to limit mantis as counter fighting only? Is it of design or by choice in PM to do so? I think Brendan alluded to this on the other thread (please don't stone me if I miss read his post, lol... ). Besides, if you have good control over your opponent's power side what fear have you on his weak side? Just providing an alternate view. :)

<<<For the fighters in your school to be comfortable facing a left sided fighter they themselves have to be proficient at it to provide training for other members in your school.>>>

I suppose in North America, where it is the land of Boxing and Kicking Boxing, matching up with a left side forward stance is an inevitable reality.

<<<But the most important thing is that important PM forms have many techniques that start from the left side>>>

My observation is that though what you stated is true, it is also important to note that many of the finishes, at least in CCK TCPM, ends on the left side of opponent, which essentially is your right (the power side).

All in all, to be able to handle either side with ease is definitely a plus in any style of fighting.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

Shaolin-Do
05-23-2003, 01:28 PM
I dont really train one side forward compared to another, I tend to square up with whoever Im fighting.
We have been fighting 75% sparring using animal styles, I only use PM.... Only animal style that doesnt have silly stances and fluttery useless techniques.
Dont get me wrong, I love the other styles, just from what I have seen PM is most efficient.

ursa major
05-23-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by mantis108
... Well, I am of the opinion that if one is well versed in PM, he/she should be able to make the opponent fight the way he/she wanted. I think since Bruce Lee's time everyone goes on the craze about adapting to your opponent. What happen to you taking control of the fight? Adaptation is important to a counter fighting style such as boxing. Is it prudent to limit mantis as counter fighting only? Is it of design or by choice in PM to do so? ... .Mantis108

Well put. Your point is proven repeatedly by our forms.

UM.

MightyB
05-23-2003, 05:22 PM
Actually,

Bruce Lee was about dictating the fight through controlling the tempo, rhythm, cadence, and distance and forcing his opponent to fight his fight... I'm not a big BL fan, but... the adapting thing was more about making the martial arts fit you, not the other way around...

Anyhoo...

(just my observation and my opinion) Self defence specific stylists tend to be power side forward. Competitive stylists can go either way. Depends mostly on if you're a defensive/counter puncher or offensive fighter. Mostly, in a fight, who really gives a flying fig about any-o-this anyway? You fight how you train... more of your sweat in training equals less of your blood in a fight.

B.Tunks
05-24-2003, 01:12 AM
I fight approx 50/50 left and right lead but often end up delivering right shots off a right lead after catching/grabbing or breaking their guard with my left off a left lead. I think if you cant/wont switch feet in a real fight (or even in comps), you are at a big disadvantage (in my opinion).
Also there is a big diff between where your hands and feet are before and after you engage. A lot of TLQ fighters will face off and wait with the left as lead and then step up or switch upon contact. It all depends on where you are, whether your defending passively (waiting for gaps) or aggressively chasing and railroading someone who is back pedalling.

mantis108
05-24-2003, 12:11 PM
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the input. :)

I think Bruce Lee used to teach the right side forward as well or at least it is so in his Tao of JKD. Then Dan Inosanto changed it back to left side forward. Talk about freedom of expression. ;) While I agree that it doesn't really matter when you are at it and that you are what you train. But then wouldn't it be a waste of time, effort and financial stress that your art don't give you the ability to discern (in theory) what you do is an unique express that is born of a vast knowledge base that has been trialed and tested by fire? That's why styles' history and subsequantly theories in CMA have significance. They are to help to determin where things come from and when they come into place. This IMHO seperates your average brawlers on the street and adepts at martial arts. You know exactly what and why you do what and why you do. Seeking stillness in motion. That, my friends, is an awesome experience in itself.

Warm regards

Mantis108

MightyB
05-25-2003, 08:56 AM
I do agree with you but I do have to say that I was somewhat disappointed by what I saw at a MMA tournament this weekend. The most disciplined fighters that were displaying their skill in use were not the traditional CMA guys--- it was the TKD guys. Worse yet, they were WTF TKD (Olympic style). The TCMA guys were the "brawlers". Guys, skill is the objective. If you fight in a tournament under continuous rules, show SKILL. If I'm judging, I want to know that you know how to apply your style. There were some Wing Chun guys who definitely did WC when they fought. That's the point.

Enough ranting.

MightyB
05-25-2003, 08:56 PM
As I re-read my last post, I need to clarify... I use Mixed Martial Arts as what it means literally--- different martial arts and styles--- not as "wrestling" as MMA now implies. The fighting I referred to was medium contact continuous sparring, not grappling.

HuangKaiVun
06-05-2003, 03:42 PM
When fighting more than one opponent, your "power side" won't necessarily be a "power side".

Just learn to fight from all positions and angles.