Punching training

[KingMonkey]

Guys, this is the training I currently do to improve my punching:-

weight training 1 a week:-

includes bench press and tricep isolation exercises


forearm strengthening 3 a week:

includes wrist rollers, ie 10lb weight on a stick roll it up then down. A few of these and you start to look like 'son of popeye'.
chin up bar hang, until my grip fails


Punching 1-2 a week:

approx 200 full power punches on wall bag then the following
(100 chain punches in air, full speed, 10 plyometric style push-ups straight after, ie trying to do them fast and explosively lifting my whole body so with my arms at full extension my hands do not reach the floor. approx 20 secs rest then repeat) * 5

Does anybody have any comments or tips regarding training for punching power either with regards to what I am doing or what you have found useful.

[Ernie]

ouch
can you say arthritis,
be careful elbows get hurt fast and take a long time to heal.
if you want to hit hard , you need to hit with your body , this coordination come with time ,relaxation and mental focus .
if you want to have a punch that is effective in a fight power is not enough , it must land on the target , so don't neglect your timing distance interuptability and all that good stuff ,
you might hit like a truck but if your target is just one inch out of your range .power is nullified ,
hit a lot of different surfaces ,stable and in motion , learn to track your target if it changes position. and don't over commit your first shot , it often doesn't land as excepted.
learn to hit with balance , so that your own power doesn't disturb your ability to change.
if you want specific drills pm me . I got a great one with a motorcycle helmet and some bag gloves you just need a partner.

[curtis]

KingMonkey
Please be carefull,you could realy hurt your self, and I agree with Ernie.
Lets take another look at what you are surching for.

In wingchun where is you power source?

If you belive your BODY is your power source,then why work only on your arms?or upper body?

My sifu told me once. "if I can hit 10times harder than you,But you can hit hard enough to break my neck or knock me out. Then whats good dose my, more power Do for me?"

Plus I belive once you stop looking for power,you will find it with out trying.

Yodda said there is NO TRY. there is only DO or DO NOT. ;-)

good luck
sincerly C.A.G.

[seBADoh]

Hello KingMonkey,

I would like to suggest another point of view that will help you on your effort:
I think that the question should be where does the power come from? Does it being generated from the hands alone or are there any other components that help you in generating a powerful punch?
Great deals of the Wing Chun masters are not “big men” or have a “Mike Tyson hands” yet they can generate enough power to throw you with a single punch. You are taking a strict boxers approach to it and as a Wing Chun practitioner you are making a mistake. It is your stance and position that helps you in generating the power. You connect the ground, the knee and the elbow to generate it. Yes power is always a good thing but definitely not the only thing and the more you focus on boxing type of exercises you forget the Wing Chun building blocks mainly the first set. It is long and it takes time, there is no instant explosive power punches, but once you obtain this ability you can always supplement your skill with “power training” …

Have a great day!

[KingMonkey]

Guys,

Thanks for the good advice (and concern!).
I agree with a lot of what you have said.
My belief though is that the training I am doing can be used in a complementary fashion to working on these other important areas you mention, maybe it doesnt have to be an either or ?

Hmm is my training that extreme ? Surely I cant be the only WC guy to punch a wall bag, do a few push ups and lift some weights ?

[Ernie]

KingMonkey


nope i did the same thing back in the day . take a bath in jow and punch till i bled or darn near close to it.then i would do 500 punches and pyrimid it with wieghts , work on my initiation speed for hours then go to the gym and free wieght chest work outs with the same angle of my punch , tried a surgical band and velcro tied it to a solid object and then my wrist and punched with resistence .
made my buddy hold focus mitts and punch him across the room after he got easy i would ask the body buliders at the gym to hold them and i would try and move them. hit the heavy bags ''still do''
let see what other crazy $hit did i do , oh yes have to do a three punch flurry every time a scene changed on the television''my girl friend hated that .
all in all i hit alot harder and more effortless and i don't do any real puching work unless it incorperates my whole body.
the dragon pole and the knives have seemed to give me cleaner power.
i also thrashed my elbow a few times in my hyperactive punching days ,
and i have learned a well placed eye jab or groin kick cost me so much less and is much more effective then a flurry of punches . but that's just my experience.

[fa_jing]

See "pads" thread.

[t_niehoff]

kingmonkey wrote:

Guys, this is the training I currently do to improve my punching:- weight training 1 a week:- includes bench press and tricep isolation exercises . . .KM

A waste of time IMHO if developing the *WCK* punch is your goal; if you want to develop a punch that relies on localized muscular exertion, you are on your way. Bruce Lee said Yip Man (not exactly a muscleman) had the most powerful punch he'd ever seen; Sum Nung would knock people across the room with a bong sao and then point out his (in his own words) "skinny arms." The WCK punch relies on a very specific set of body (the arm is part of the body) mechanics. The only way to develop those mechanics is to first learn the correct mechanics. And the only way to do that is to find someone that can do it (if they can't do it, they can't teach it to you -- and it is easy to tell if they can do it or not). Then, when you have learned the mechanics, you need to practice. The best practice for the punch is the punch. Supplemental drills are, for the most part, a waste of time IMO. Weightlifting will not aid, and IMO may very easily inhibit, the correct mechanics. TN

Punching 1-2 a week:

approx 200 full power punches on wall bag

As I view it, all punches are "full power" punches, in that we use our power fully. Here's a drill: have a parnter hold a air shield against his chest while you stand in YJKYM. Have him run at you, as if trying to knock you backward (and not stop, even when hit -- he should continue to drive through you if he can). When he comes into range, hit him with one punch. If you have the mechanics down, you'll knock him backward and he'll fell like he got hit by a battering ram. TN

Next, try to drive him backward as he tries to press forward with the shield (to smother your punches). If you feel any muscular strain or can't drive him backward, you don't have the mechanics. TN

then the following
(100 chain punches in air, full speed,

All WCK punches are "full speed." TN

10 plyometric style push-ups straight after, ie trying to do them fast and explosively lifting my whole body so with my arms at full extension my hands do not reach the floor. approx 20 secs rest then repeat) * 5

Push-ups have nothing to do with the punch. TN

Does anybody have any comments or tips regarding training for punching power either with regards to what I am doing or what you have found useful.

The WCK punch is different in kind (a different category altogether) than most other 'styles' of punching. If you understand the mechanics, you'll know that all those exercies you are doing won't give you what you seek, and will only take you further off-course. The only way to increase the power of your punch -- if it is the WCK punch -- is to increase your efficiency in those mechanics. TN

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


The advice that Terence has just given is on the money.

You should print it out and read it a few times as what you are doing will not help your WC punch.

Good stuff TN.


Regards,

[AndrewS]

A caveat-

when doing these sorts of drills- you're really comparing how good your structure is with the other person's mass, momentum, and *structure*. If the guy holding the pad is doing the same thing with his body you're trying to do with yours, while coming forward hard and fast, this 'test' turns relative as opposed to the 'do you have it or not' which Terence puts forth.

See the weight-training thread for my thoughts on the matter. Benching is pretty useless, IMO.

A tip for your punching-

hit a wallbag centered at about solar plexus height. Try to stand a bit more than the length of your upper arm away from the bag (i.e. close, varies a bit person to person by build, I'm long armed). Hit the bag with a low elbow (below the wrist and fist), and the elbow as far in as possible (basically, try to make your forearm almost sprout from your navel).

This starts to develop the mechanics which help bring your body into play- through your arms.

Later,

Andrew

[yenhoi]

You are taking a strict boxers approach

Silly-talk. Most boxers see weight training just as taboo as WCK guys. Smart people use weight training to supplement their overall training program.

IMO you should ditch all isolation randomness and stick to bodyweight drills or weight lifting excersises that use large muscles and large groups of muscles, such as the deadlift and side press. Lift heavy. See training forum....

:eek:

[KingMonkey]

Thanks Terence et al for the advice, and the suggestion for drills, very useful, I will go away and think about what you have said. My initial reaction is similar to my response earlier. I think your points are very valid but when you say that push ups/ weight training will do nothing for my punch I believe that you are overstating the case.

My reasoning is as follows.....

1) Hand speed upon meeting the target is a factor in the power of the punch (Yes certainly not the only factor).

2) The tricep and to a lesser extent the chest are the muscles providing the force (regardless of coordinated lower body movement ) to move my hand forward relative to my torso.

3) Acceleration of my hand while travelling away from my body is a function of force/mass.

4) Therefore increasing the force my muscles can exert should be beneficial.


When I hear people cite examples of tiny, skinny little guys punching incredibly hard because of timing and structure I think it's very impressive but I would say this is analagous to the story I've heard from die hard smokers. It goes

"My auntie/grandfather/brother/mum smoked every day of their life and they lived to 80 years old"

You can either think yeah that's great or you could point out how long they might have lived if they hadnt smoked.

My point?

Yes I know people with a great deal of timing and skill can generate a lot of power with tiny little muscles, but just think how much power they could have generated with the same skill and much stronger muscles.

[Grabula]

I do 200-300 punches everyday on the wallbag. Thats about all I do directly for punching. I do some light weight training but that is more fo health then anything else.

[yenhoi]

The WCK punch is different in kind (a different category altogether) than most other 'styles' of punching. If you understand the mechanics, you'll know that all those exercies you are doing won't give you what you seek, and will only take you further off-course. The only way to increase the power of your punch -- if it is the WCK punch -- is to increase your efficiency in those mechanics. TN

This is true of any strike or punch or kick or "technique" from any "system."

:eek:

[Grabula]

someone got yenhoi up on his soapbox! ;) how ya doin brother?

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
A caveat-

when doing these sorts of drills- you're really comparing how good your structure is with the other person's mass, momentum, and *structure*. If the guy holding the pad is doing the same thing with his body you're trying to do with yours, while coming forward hard and fast, this 'test' turns relative as opposed to the 'do you have it or not' which Terence puts forth.

Amen to relativity.
- kj

[t_niehoff]

kingmonkey wrote:

My reasoning is as follows.....

1) Hand speed upon meeting the target is a factor in the power of the punch (Yes certainly not the only factor).

Thinking in terms of "handspeed" will miss the point of the mechanics IME. TN

2) The tricep and to a lesser extent the chest are the muscles providing the force (regardless of coordinated lower body movement ) to move my hand forward relative to my torso.

The power comes primarily from the body, not from the arm (the arm is mainly a conduit for the power). The two most used analogies for the punch (from the "old-timers") are bow and arrow, and hammer and nail. It is the bow and the hammer that generate the force; the arrow and nail transmit it to the target. TN

3) Acceleration of my hand while travelling away from my body is a function of force/mass.

Acceleration is relative, and it increases after contact. TN

4) Therefore increasing the force my muscles can exert should be beneficial.

It won't -- then the punch becomes one of localized muscle. Find someone that can do the WCK punch and you'll see what I mean. TN

When I hear people cite examples of tiny, skinny little guys punching incredibly hard because of timing and structure I think it's very impressive but I would say this is analagous to the story I've heard from die hard smokers. It goes

"My auntie/grandfather/brother/mum smoked every day of their life and they lived to 80 years old"

You can either think yeah that's great or you could point out how long they might have lived if they hadnt smoked.

My point?

Yes I know people with a great deal of timing and skill can generate a lot of power with tiny little muscles, but just think how much power they could have generated with the same skill and much stronger muscles.

I used Yip and Sum to underscore that the mechanics I'm talking about is WCK. It's not something reserved for the "masters." My students, and I, do those drills I mentioned every class; it's no BFD if you know *how* to do it. The power has little to do with musclular exertion. Seriously -- visit someone that "has it". TN

=================

AndrewS wrote:

when doing these sorts of drills- you're really comparing how good your structure is with the other person's mass, momentum, and *structure*. If the guy holding the pad is doing the same thing with his body you're trying to do with yours, while coming forward hard and fast, this 'test' turns relative as opposed to the 'do you have it or not' which Terence puts forth.

I've found that if one has the *WCK* mechanics of the punch developed, the structure of the other person (running in with the air shield) won't matter -- the punch will destroy it (as the punch is meant to do!). Sure there is a limit -- it won't stop a charging rhino -- but it will stop someone much larger than yourself. My caveat would be that if you feel muscular exertion or strain doing the drill, it means you don't have the mechanics. TN

Terence

[Grabula]

part of your error king monkey is thinking in terms of muscle. If you are doing wing chun correctly then muscle is just a small factor in the big picture. Better for good wingchun, to work on structure, rooting, sensitivity, and precision then to work on strong muscles.