A respected American's view on the war in Iraq

[Serpent]

From Gene Ching's excellent article in the e-zine Shaolin Trips, Episode 2:



When traveling alone, television often becomes my constant companion. It made my first China morning into a rude awaking, time for the red horse to gallop in. The news was filled with images of Iraq, but not the patriotic coverage we were getting back in the states. These were images of civilian amputees, of babies in fragments, the cries of children and the other songs of war. It was the sick and awful side of "shock and awe." No matter what your stance is on the war, if you don't see suffering, you aren't seeing the real war. War is hell.

Here in San Francisco, we used to say "Make love, not war." It may surprise you to learn that Buddhists deny love as another delusion. In the Flower Adornment sutra, love is compared to nine things: an unpaid debt, a rakshasa (demon) woman, a wonderful lotus flower whose roots are hiding a poisonous snake, disagreeable food, a prostitute, a mleccha (barbarian), an infected sore, a destructive wind and a comet. However, if love is defined as compassion, compassion is the cornerstone of Buddhism. Passion comes from the Latin passus, meaning "to suffer." In essence, "compassion" means "to suffer with." While our country maintains a right to free speech, our free press chooses to waive that right, focusing almost entirely on the strategy of our attack instead of engaging in substantive debate. Americans did not see the war like the rest of the world. We didn't see the suffering so we couldn't "suffer with." We weren't given the chance to be compassionate. Even with our digital widescreen TVs, no one here saw the big picture, and to this day no one really knows what that big picture might have been.






But despite the niceties, the war haunted my trip like a whinnying banshee, rearing up and kicking whenever I thought I'd left it behind. Whether it was running into a group of Old German ladies who asked me if I had heard any recent news, or the smartass remarks of a shopkeeper asking if I'd like a ticket to Iraq, once anyone discovered that I was American, the topic would turn immediately to war. It's alienating to be outside your own country while it is at war, but you get a better perspective.

Ironically, the Chinese pronounce "Bush" by combining two characters "bu" (clothes) and "shi" (rare.) This is a phonetic translation, so those parenthesized definitions are meaningless. But due to the inflections of Mandarin, Bush sounds a little like "bullshi." All it needed was a final consonant, one that might fit to a "T", and it could have expressed the opinion of much of the rest of the world.



It's only a small part of the overall article but I thought they were two very powerful passages.

Good on ya, Gene.

[Xebsball]

while i wait for Black Jack's typical right-wing post yet to be posted on this thread, heres something:

Interesting stuff on "passus", did you know that in portuguese "passo" means "step" and then "passos" is "steps".
Just as in many other cases the latin "us" becames a "o" or "os" in portuguese, think bout it, like when you walk every step you feel is pain from the ground coming to your feet.
Passion for is "paixão" and compassion is "compaixão", so i dunno if passus is or not the origin of passos. Anyone here is a crazy linguistics guy that can find that out? :)

[Marky]

Though I appreciate the perspective of those who were against taking action in Iraq, both Americans and otherwise, I actually disliked the article. I think the promotion of the "foreigner's" (by American POV) perspective is a good one to share, but the article had a lot of strange parts to it. Like these:

1. The writer is a Buddhist, so he's a pacifist (according to every Buddhist Sutra, a Buddhist is, by definition, a pacifist) in the most immoral sense of the word. That is to say, he believes violence in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, FROM MURDER TO WAR TO SELF-DEFENSE, is immoral under all circumstances. But he claims that he didn't understand the bad sides of war and violence (as if there were a good side) UNTIL HE SAW IT ON THE NEWS. So why was he a pacifist if he didn't understand the horrors of violence?! And why did he need a television to explain it to him?

2. The writer claims that no media source in the US showed images of the horrors of war. That's untrue. Even the most pro-Bush media sources talked about the death that occured there AT SOME POINT. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the anti-Bush and "ultra-liberals" talked ONLY about the civilian deaths for quite a while, and even claimed that the US was LOSING THE WAR!! In the neutral area of the media, one could read about both sides of the war equally (but it takes some searching to find a truly neutral source!). Unfortunately, most media sources reported based on their own agendas, and even falsified information (such as the cover picture of an LA Times newspaper that depicted a US soldier pointing his weapon at a mother holding her child, which was later admitted to be fake). This happened on both sides of the media. Furthermore, it could be argued that countries which were against the war blew the negative sides of the conflict far out of proportion, because they, too, had their own agendas. It is my belief that exploiting the death of innocents for political reasons is just as bad as ignoring those deaths for politcal reasons. All in all, we live in a sick world.

3. He claims that people outside the US have a "better perspective". It's different, and every bit as justifiable and credible as those who were in favor of the war. To say one is "better" than the other is stupid, whether one is for the war or against it. When it comes to war, only two perspectives matter: the one who's killing and the one who's being killed. Sad, but true.

4. The entire ending about "BuShi" shows that the writer has an agenda that is against the Bush administration (or at the very least, he disapproves of George Bush). It annoys me that a respected Buddhist would add something like that to an article, which serves no purpose other than to make the reader equate George W. Bush with Bu||****.

All in all, the writer has an admirable perspective. But I didn't like the article one bit.

Xesball,

That's more than even a crazy linguistics guy would want to know! But interesting, all the same.

[Serpent]

I think your perspective skews the way you view Gene's article.

And Gene is a martial artist and a lay monk. Who are you to say what he does or doesn't believe? Buddhists monks have propogated martial arts for centuries - there are different types of pacifism and different types of Buddhists.

[Serpent]

While we're on the subject, how much of this (http://smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/22/1053585647330.html) have you guys heard about?

[rogue]

No matter what your stance is on the war, if you don't see suffering, you aren't seeing the real war. War is hell. Sorry to say many of us already know this.

"There is
many a boy here who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell. You can bear this warning voice to generations to
come." General William Tecumseh Sherman

[Marky]

Hi Serpent,

I've been hearing about info along the lines of that news article for a little over a week now. It definitely has to be done, but I think that weapons will turn up in the end. They might not be in Iraq... maybe we can FedEx them in?? =)

I wouldn't argue what a person believes, but I've read the Buddhist scriptures. And I realize there are many forms of Buddhism, Theravadan, Mahayana, Vadrayana, Zen, and even (as much as it pains me) pop culture Buddhism of America. And the definition of pacifism that I gave was taken directly from Buddhist scriptures. As I posted on another thread, that's not how I define pacifism. But the Buddhist pacifism is NO PHYSICAL OR VERBAL VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY REASON.


"I think your perspective skews the way you view Gene's article."

As does yours. As does everybody elses'. When all is said and done, we're all equally false.

[Serpent]

Even the world and everyone in it is nothing more than an illusion.

;)

[shaolin kungfu]

Even the world and everyone in it is nothing more than an illusion.

Be careful, this may prompt people to start talking about the matrix.

[Becca]

Enery one has thier own adgenda, marky. I think Gene did a good job of expressing his experiences and opinions. I don't think Gene's adgenda was to bash anyone, but to put his ideas on paper. BTW, I did not follow the war threw Americal news sources. I followed it threw Routers. IMO they do the best job of putting out facts and not propaganda.

[Serpent]

Dayum, Becca, do you need a spell-checker! ;)

[Marky]

Hi Becca,

I didn't believe Gene was trying to bash anyone until the final paragraph. I agree about Reuters, but I should point out that many US news stations (particularly FOX News) used Reuters as a source (or a confirmation source) for a lot of information. And I think that helps to keep all the media sources in check, as well.

[Serpent]

There is no US based independent media.

It's hard enough to find on a global scale, but in the US it's like looking for wings on a pig.

Or brains in a bush.

[tnwingtsun]

"While we're on the subject, how much of this have you guys heard about this?"

"The CIA's director, George Tenet, has assembled a team of retired CIA officers to scour the classified intelligence reports circulated to the US Government before the war on a range of Iraq-related issues, including those concerning Bagdhad's links to terrorism and unconventional weapons, officials said."






HOW ABOUT THIS!!!!


http://www.terrorismvictims.org/terrorists/achille-lauro.html

WE CAUGHT THE A$$HOLE THAT PUT A BULLET IN LEON AND DUMPED HIS BODY INTO THE OCEAN!!


Hey kids!!

Guess where we got his slimiy arse?!?!?!?

Thats right boys and girls,IRAQ!!!!!

How some people here forget..........................

[tnwingtsun]

"While we're on the subject, how much of this have you guys heard about this?"

"The CIA's director, George Tenet, has assembled a team of retired CIA officers to scour the classified intelligence reports circulated to the US Government before the war on a range of Iraq-related issues, including those concerning Bagdhad's links to terrorism and unconventional weapons, officials said."






HOW ABOUT THIS!!!!


http://www.terrorismvictims.org/terrorists/achille-lauro.html

WE CAUGHT THE A$$HOLE THAT PUT A BULLET IN LEON AND DUMPED HIS BODY INTO THE OCEAN!!


Hey kids!!

Guess where we got his slimiy arse?!?!?!?

Thats right boys and girls,IRAQ!!!!!

How some people here forget..........................
:mad:

[Serpent]

Calm down before you give yourself an anuerism.

Actually... keep going.

:rolleyes:

[tnwingtsun]

Ok,only if you stop eating so much sugar.........

[I.M. Toast]

"There is no US based independent media."

Actually, there is no such thing as independent, unbiased media. Journalism comes from people, and people are biased. It is very obvious that Mr. Ching doesn't like Bush, so one must take what he says with that fact under consideration.

I generally read a number of sources, discover their biases, and form my own opinion.

I.M.T.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by tnwingtsun
Ok,only if you stop eating so much sugar.........

An American telling me to eat less sugar!? Priceless!

[joedoe]

That is quite funny :)

[Becca]

The Globe uses reliable sources to get their stories,too.;) Doesn't meen I'd trust their take on it, though. Point in case: Here in Denver We have two major daily papers, The Denver Post and the Rocky Mountain News. Most people like the News for it's layout. I would rather read the Post, though, because they state the facts and don't try to hide under tones or lead their readers to draw any conclutions. But for war coverage, I still didn't trust 75% of what they reported. Rueters has a long held repytation for telling the bruital truth.

[David Jamieson]

I think it's a good article.

It does make the point that what is seen in the media in one place is not necessarily how it is seen elsewhere.

How much is spin on either side? Well that depends on bias and perspective.

The American media perspective is going to lean favourably in the mainstream media to the sitting government and all those who oppose will be in some way marginalized. That's how it goes and that really is how it really works.

Bush said it himself "...if you aren't with us, you're with the terrorists.".

How much sense does that make? How many media outlets are gonna print or screen objections to the current president? Media is about advertising dollars, advertising dollars dominate all media with the exception of the private press, which is not exactly mainstream and isn't really in a position to truly persuade someone in their political leanings.

So, coming from a Kungfu guy such as Gene, I thought it was a good article. Certainly a clearer look at it than one would get in their panic room watching fox :D

cheers

[Ford Prefect]

I think the Chinese pronounciation of Bush is very telling. After all, the Chinese are the beacon of light for truth, equality, and civil rights for all its citizens.

[rogue]

Bush said it himself "...if you aren't with us, you're with the terrorists.".
How much sense does that make?

Makes a lot of sense considering how serious Bush takes the war on terrorism.


How many media outlets are gonna print or screen objections to the current president?
KL, You must be kidding. The NYT for one.


Media is about advertising dollars, advertising dollars dominate all media with the exception of the private press, which is not exactly mainstream and isn't really in a position to truly persuade someone in their political leanings. Those advertising dollars are the best poll on how US citizens feel about the subject.

[MasterKiller]

KL, You must be kidding. The NYT for one.

Are you kidding?! The media has been self-censoring itself since Bush started this tirade. No one wants to be perceived as being "against the troops" because that is unAmerican. :rolleyes:

Even the Democrats are too scared to say anything about this horrendous tax-cut that just passsed. Our national debt will be almost 8 trillion in a few months thanks to Bush. We don't even have the required monetary ratio of debt to join the Euorpean Union right now.

Oh yeah. We're on the right track.

[David Jamieson]

Putting the focus on supporting the troops only detracts from the agenda of the administration.

Of course you can tug at peoples hearts by pointing at their own that are in harms way.

the soldiers certainly didn't start the war. They are there because they are a tool of the government. That is the lot of the soldier.

Of course you would show support for your friends, family and countrymen. My country has troops all over the place, serving for various reasons including the war on terrorism. I support them in their endeavours.

The troops should not be used in such partisan ways though IMO and Bush certainly loves to connect himself to the military to justify his administrations actions. This says a lot in itself.

cheers

[Black Jack]

Oh yea that ***** clinton had nothing at all to do with our present national debt and economy situation.

Bush is a FAR better leader than that P.O.S whale humper ever was and ever could be. Some people are just ****ed because he did not continue down the same road of national pussification.

I am going to be laughing my arse off when he wins again in 04.

[MasterKiller]

I am going to be laughing my arse off when he wins again in 04.

Sure, but are you gonna be laughing in 08 when he's done? My money is on you be weeping with the rest of us.


Bush is a FAR better leader than that P.O.S whale humper ever was and ever could be.

What exactly has he led us towards? Um...OK, we kicked the crap out of two 3rd tier countries. What else....? What improvements has he made? What policies?

He was a laughing stock in the media before 9/11. Many were saying he was the worst President ever. So what changed? We got attacked, and people got defensive, and he started spouting Nationalistic rhetoric and whipped everyone into a fervor. But to what avail? Al Queda is still bombing people...didn't stop them. Couldn't catch Bin Laden....Saddam is still alive...didn't kill him. So who's the next target for his endless war for popularity?

And that whole air-craft carrier fiasco was ridiculous.Maybe next time, he should try to sell his tax-cuts from a submarine. That would make people think he is strong!

[Black Jack]

Its flabbergasting that you overlook the big picture. America is breaking up terrorist cells left and right, 9/11 suspects and al-Queda suspects are being captured and apprehended with more being rounded up all the time, their have been no more home front attacks, Bush has taken out two national backers which support terrorism, one of them a world class evil.

What do some of you people expect, for Bush to snap his fingers and Bin Laden is caught, patience is a virtue and the hunt still goes on, how long did it take to capture some of the nazi war criminals from WWII......:rolleyes:

Gore would of rolled his nuts around in the sandbox and not accomplished a thing.

[MasterKiller]

it take to capture some of the nazi war criminals from WWII......
That Hitler fellow was especially hard to find. :rolleyes:

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Al Queda is still bombing people...didn't stop them. Couldn't catch Bin Laden....Saddam is still alive...didn't kill him.

If you wanted Saddam and Bin Laden's heads on a silver platter; if you wanted global American hegemony; if you wanted a successfull crusade against militant Islam; then you no doubt find Bush to be a failure.

If you wanted the genocide of the Iraqi people to stop, then you no doubt find Bush to be a success.

Really, it's all a matter of what your personal values are.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That Hitler fellow was especially hard to find. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

You're showcasing your gross ignorance of history again.

[Black Jack]

Masterkiller, here is a roll-eyes back at you for overlooking the whole post just as you are overlooking the big picture.:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

If you wanted the genocide of the Iraqi people to stop, then you no doubt find Bush to be a success.


Which UN Resolution called for a stop to genocide against the Iraqi people, again?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Which UN Resolution called for a stop to genocide against the Iraqi people, again?

You're going to have to make more of an effort to have a point before I'm tempted to go to the trouble to get a reference for you.

[Black Jack]

It was a question about values not UN resolutions.

[MasterKiller]

It was more like an after-thought when the world wouldn't rally around GW's cause. I'm not saying putting Saddam out of commision wasn't his original goal. I'm saying it was, and the whole WMD thing was just a lie to achieve it.

The CIA even admits that documents may have been forged which supported the administrations claims of WMD.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
It was more like an after-thought when the world wouldn't rally around GW's cause.

What was?


I'm not saying putting Saddam out of commision wasn't his original goal.

Deposing Saddam's regime was his original goal. This is a bit different than needing to know where his body is.


I'm saying it was, and the whole WMD thing was just a lie to achieve it.

The WMD thing was the context by which America could operate within the UN. That it's different from their context for operating within their own foreign policy doesn't make it "a lie." Two very different contexts result in two very different sets of reasoning.

[MasterKiller]

The WMD thing was the context by which America could operate within the UN. That it's different from their context for operating within their own foreign policy doesn't make it "a lie." Two very different contexts result in two very different sets of reasoning.

So you justify fabricating a military condition to the rest of the world in order to be depose a government that you don't like and poses no threat to us? If Liberation was the goal all along, then how was Iraq a threat to our security.

How does foreign policy justify lying about the reasons you want to want to invade another country? And even if it does, what are the repercusions on foreign relations if the rest of the world knows we lied?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
So you justify fabricating a military condition to the rest of the world...How does foreign policy justify lying about the reasons you want to want to invade another country?...And even if it does, what are the repercusions on foreign relations if the rest of the world knows we lied?

Say you take a friday off work and go to the beach with your girlfriend. While you're there, you bump into one of your supervisors from work, and he goes "Why are you here?" You tell him, "Oh, I took the day off work." Later on, you bump into one of your buddies, he asks you "Why are you here?" You say, "Man, I wanted to stay home and drink, but my girlfriend made me come."

Is either one of these a lie? Is either one of these a fabrication to justify something?

No, they're both perfectly reasonable answers; they differ because of context.

Same deal here. I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining what it is. I encourage you to find fault with it, so long as you're finding fault with what actually happened, rather than something you made up.

So once again, nothing about this is a "lie." Moreover, all of this was entirely overt and public domain all along.


...in order to be depose a government that you don't like and poses no threat to us...how was Iraq a threat to our security

Since I happen to care for people other than just myself, that they posed no threat to me personally is not a particularly persuasive point with me.

Again, you may be different. You may only care about threats to yourself and not care if other people suffer. In which case, I'd have to accept your reasoning here as valid.

Again, it's all about personal values.

[MasterKiller]

Is either one of these a lie? Is either one of these a fabrication to justify something?

I dare say that fabricating the existence of nuclear weapons and faking proof of them in order to justify deposing another government that we don't like is a little different scenario than the one you described.


Since I happen to care for people other than just myself, that they posed no threat to me personally is not a particularly persuasive point with me.

And what exaclty were you doing prior to this to help those poor people if Iraq? I'm sure you were pining for their independence all along...

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I dare say that 'fibbing' about the existence of nuclear weapons and faking proof of them in order to justify deposing another government that we don't like is a little different scenario than the one you described.

Could you supply a reference showing that the Bush Admin stated Iraq had nuclear weapons?

[MasterKiller]

Forgive me....I forgot to use the new catch-all phrase for bombs owned by countries other than the U.S.---Weapons of Mass Destruction. Which haven't been found yet. hmmmm....

[Christopher M]

If the Bush Admin is 'fibbing' about the presence of WMD, then so is France, Germany, and Russia and the rest of the UN which unanimously signed off on that belief, most famously on resolution 1441.

[MasterKiller]

The proof is in the pudding.

[rogue]

The proof is in the pudding. Me thinks I hear a rhetorical tapout!:p

[MasterKiller]

No tapout, but we do tend to keep repeating these things over and over. Eventually, they always come down to an "I know you are but what am I" debate.

CM has good arguments, but I don't agree with them.

[KC Elbows]

I think there's a certain amount of revisionism going on here.

The justification, only at the very end, was helping end a tyranny. Before that, to both US citizens and other countries, the original justification was WMD's and funding terrorism as well as national security of the US. The lack of disarmament by Iraq was merely the justification to the UN, and was really the only part that can said to have been spoken honestly, based on what information we have now, if a bit overstated.

However, nothing suggests that the claims of a threat to the US were true. This could be due to an intelligence failure, but it appears the info that was being acted on just doesn't exist in a concrete sense, so it makes it hard to accept it as anything but a lie, especially since that search appears to be considered part of the public humor pool at this point. There's no context in which you can make it true based on the info you have, unless you have more info than our president, which you don't. If he can't do it with the help of all his aides, neither can you.

Again, this values argument is revisionist crap. That was only touted as the popular argument behind the war right before the war, and was an excuse, albeit one conveniently based off of a horrible regime, so easy to sell. To try to sell that as the basis of one group's position on the war is only honest if that group is Iraqi refugees, not conservative internet forum geeks.

Methinks someone's playing a pc game. How very unconservative.

In any case, I don't begrudge conservative policy makers seeking to find a solution to a problem and using pragmatic approaches to that solution all the while utilizing propaganda to achieve their ends and undermine those who would undermine them in order to try their own solutions. However, I grow tired of Limbaugh clones posing everything they support as an ideal under assault by visigoths, when it's all obviously politics, and when they know it. I just find the approach fairly strange from conservatives. It's kind of weird to watch them go all pc.

However, I love the girlfriend day trip relation to political truth. It doesn't really match up, but it's a funny attempt. "What are you doing?" "Warning the american people about the Iraqi WMD's. You know chemical and nuclear weapons?" "What chemical and nuclear weapons?" "Sorry, did I say that? I meant missiles that go 25 miles too far and old labs. You misunderstood my context. I meant whatever we might find there." "Are you sure you just didn't want to invade, and this was as good an excuse as any?" "Of course not." "C'mon, admit it. They were annoying you, messing with the world economy, unsettling the region, so you decided to take care of it, right?" "No way." "C'mon, admit it!" "Nope, it was all part of an attempt to save the people." "What people?" "The Iraqanians." "Ah, I see. Hey, did you just eat the last chip?" "No, I liberated you from the greese." "No, you just ate it." "Sorry, I'm a new conservative. I don't just do things so that they get done because I think they should get done. I have to establish nebulous excuses first, kind of like a democrat."

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Christopher M
If the Bush Admin is 'fibbing' about the presence of WMD, then so is France, Germany, and Russia and the rest of the UN which unanimously signed off on that belief, most famously on resolution 1441.

What date did they sign off on that, what date did Bush et al infer there was significant presence of WMD in Iraq, and which date is closer to today, when no significant presence seems around?

[Ford Prefect]

1441 itself states that Iraq had numerous WMD stores as found by the last inspection regime before they were expelled and that Iraq must provide proof that they were destroyed or produce them. It's on the UN website, so you can read it for yourself.

The UNSC signed off on the fact that Saddam had WMD and he must prove he doesn't anymore. It's pretty simple. I think it's comical that the same people who were screaming that the inspectors needed more time are now the same people who demand instant proof. At least it shows the bias.

BTW, Bush never said Iraq had nuclear weapons.

You guys really need to follow the news more closely and actually read these resoltions you comment on.

[ZIM]

resolutions, shmesolutions. The PNAC neo-cons were urging action in Iraq regardless of whether SH was in power as early as 1997. That Shrub is not a *listed* member is not a factor- much of his cabinet is.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
1441 itself states that Iraq had numerous WMD stores as found by the last inspection regime before they were expelled and that Iraq must provide proof that they were destroyed or produce them. It's on the UN website, so you can read it for yourself.

The UNSC signed off on the fact that Saddam had WMD and he must prove he doesn't anymore. It's pretty simple. I think it's comical that the same people who were screaming that the inspectors needed more time are now the same people who demand instant proof. At least it shows the bias.

BTW, Bush never said Iraq had nuclear weapons.

You guys really need to follow the news more closely and actually read these resoltions you comment on.

Before casting aspursions, try reading other's posts. First, I never mentioned nukes, yet "you guys" clearly covers me and anyone else arguing anything you are arguing against, which is a bad habit a lot of people are developing in these arguments.

Second, I was not saying establish the dates because I didn't know what the resolution stated, I DID know. The point is, Bush presented an argument that appeared to be based on more recent info than that resolution, but no one seems able to find any such info. To fall back and say "But the UN resolution says so" is immaterial to any argument about nebulous and supposedly more recent info that is supposed to exist, but appears to be nonexistent. The resolution is based off old info, the official US policy is supposed to be based of newer info. I can prove the resolution is completely based off old info, I cannot prove the opposite for the most part of official US policy.

And the fact is, the inspectors needed more time because they had to work against the internal regime's manueverings. The US can go wherever it likes in Iraq at will, unlike the inspectors. It shouldn't take nearly as long. Plus, we have people associated with their weapons program in our possession now. And yet, nothing. Meanwhile, more and more comes out to suggest that the links were based off of spurious info.

You're suggesting the suspicions of all claims of links and WMD production in Iraq are all reasonless, totally ignoring the fact that more than one source cited by the policy makers has proved either old, plagiarized, or similarly suspect. That's sort of purposefully playing obtuse, since you couldn't have missed this news, since you're lecturing others on their news quatations.

I'm to the point where it's not even disagreement with conservative policymakers, but more annoyance to the way both conservative and liberal constituents in the US appear to be total and complete sheep, altering their arguments by edict of the parties, and carrying those arguments around wherever they go for the good of the party. God forbid we went in there as part of our values. Values make terrible and unstable politics, IMO.

[Christopher M]

ZIM: Shrub's inherited a party and administration inhabited by many neocons, but that he himself isn't one does matter. Specifically because it means they have power insofar as he gives it to them, and not the other way around.

Shrub's conservatism and Wolfowitz's neoconservatism have points of both disagreement and agreement. That they happened to agree on the war in Iraq doesn't change their this. What to do with Iraq post-war is a point of disagreement.

This is a very important point to recognize, particularly if you disagree with the neocons. Right now Shrub is what's holding them back; but he won't be in office forever. The best way to make sure his inheritor will understand where he should part company with the neocons is by making sure that line is not blurred in the public conception. In other words, right here and right now; and wherever your right here and right now might be a bit later; and so on.

By saying he's not "*listed*" as a neocon, I assume you mean to suggest he still is one. You'll find on PNAC's webpage official letters from them criticising both his budget and ballistic missile defense policy. With more research you'll also find they are at odds on what to do with Iraq, what to do in Syria, and what to do in Israel-Palestine. You'll also find they are at odds in their conception of the UN, NATO, and other supernationals; and also at odds in terms of budget and domestic policy. Should I elaborate on any of these points? When my friend's site is back up, I can link up an article from it that lists point by point PNAC's demands and what the Republican and Democrat parties have done on the pertinent issues, and you will find the Democrats have been more cooperative!

[ewallace]

You'll never get any talking like that. :)

[Xebsball]

dude, thas pretty sure im not getting any anyway, so why not fock with Black Jacks feelings :cool:

[KC Elbows]

I love seeing Black Jack and Xebs at each other. It's the height of entertainment.

[MasterKiller]

How is Dr. Fritz any different than Benny Hinn or any other Christian fraud operating in America?

[KC Elbows]

MK, don't mess with BJ's aspursions on the Brazilian people. It's like messing with Xeb's ability to tell BJ that he's caught "the g@y". These are powers beyond your understanding.

[ZIM]

CM-
Sure, I'd like to see the links when you can, that'd be great.

WRT the rest, yes, you got the right inference... one thing I've noted from way back is that the president often turns out to be more moderate than his electors/supporters/idealogical confreres would like him to be, but I think that's due to the nature of the office- jockeying around Congress and whatnot. That they are 'at odds' on various nuances actually supports that view.

Now, again, he's not a listed member of the neocons- this i'm agreeing with. He is very chummy with them, however, and does seem to support their vision in some of his actions. Thats some of the basis for my doubts. I feel strongly that Iraq was a foregone conclusion in search of a publicly-acceptable justification.

Can I support that with documentary evidence? Not on your life- but thats also realpolitik, no? ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

I stand beyond mk's understanding.
Or should I say I overstand MK?
How about my supernatural ability to maintain a steady gaseous eructation to flow without any sort of abdominal constraint?

[Xebsball]

SD, that sounds like crazy whack tight mad sharp wild Yoga stuff

[Christopher M]

Zim - I've got my doubts too, but also my hopes. It's promising that he shut Wolfowitz down on the Syria issue recently. I also know that pre-election he was patently a conservative in the isolationist sense: a traditional conservative is dubious of any sort of supernationality and their foreign policy reflects this. This was the source of Shrub's pre-election comments about not being a nation-builder. This is of course fundamentally at odds with PNAC and the other neocons idea of "global American hegemony."

But you're right that he's "chummy" with them. This is worrying. Does he see the differences the same way I do? Surely not; and surely it's awfully complicated from his perspective.

I know he's very ideological, was a very traditional conservative pre-election, and so far hasn't deviated from it. So while there's certainly cause for worry; there is also cause for hope.

In the general sense, I believe quite strongly that the conservatism reclaiming it's party from the neocons is a desperate priority for America.

You're right though that Iraq was a foregone conclusion long ago, from both the conservative and neocon stances. And you're quite right that the "task" was to "sell" it both to the public and on the international stage. I think you could support that with documentary evidence... but it wouldn't be worth the bother since I think everyone agrees. ;)

[MasterKiller]

I don't follow Benny Hinn, as I am not religous at all, but I can tell you he is not injecting thousands of people with turpintine, and pretending to tear out their organs with ww1 mystical healing skills.

Nope, but he takes their money just the same, and claims he can cure them of the ailments by slapping them on the forehead. Thousands of people flock to his Stadium shows for the slim chance that he can 'breathe God' into them and cure them of their depression, their arthritis, their spastic-colon, etc...

Hurt them physically...hurt them spiritually...A sham is a sham, regardless of the country you're in.

[MasterKiller]

He doesn't inject them, but he sure as hell claims God will cure them of anything, through him, if they believe in it enough. To bring this back to Xebby, I'll just say that the Trinity Broadcasting Network is a construct of the DEBIL!

[Shaolin-Do]

I actually was watching a special on discovery on spiritual healers yesterday :)
It proved that they do actually help, simply by the power of suggestion. It causes people subconscious minds to kinda overrun their bodies natural proccesses, sometimes making extraodinary things happen. It has absolutely nothing to do with the healer, but rather the persons immense brain power that hides in their subconscious. We only understand a little bit of our brain, but it can do some seriously amazing sh!t.
But yes, that dude is a sham. If people believed whole heartedly that you or I were spiritual healers, it would work just as well.

[GeneChing]

I expected to get some response for that article, but this is really flattering. Thank you all so much for reading my stuff. I must admit, though, I'm really taken aback by the "respected American" title of this thread. That's the first time anyone's called me that.

I'll address a few points that came up earlier, though I'm not getting into Benny Hinn stuff since I don't know anything about it.

On Bush: It's my right as an American to oppose President Bush. This instant anyone says it isn't, they lose sight of what it means to be American. This point, more than anything, is why I take such a stance.
Now I have a few friends in Iraq - in fact our employee Johnny posted on our "talk to the got qi? girls" thread from Iraq. And some of my dear friends are veterans. I'm very proud of them all for their service. But pride in our soldiers is independant of support of our President and I find our media's attempt to associate them so manipulative.

On being Buddhist: There was an earlier assertion that because I practice Buddhism I must be a pacifist. Surely all religions espouse peace, it's just that westerners are so naive to Buddhism that they haven't seen our darkside yet. We do have one, just like any religion. Check out Zen at War (http://www.zen-azi.org/html/guerre_e.html)
But as for me personally, well, like my kung fu, I practice Buddhism, but I wouldn't say I was a good Buddhist. I eat meat and drink intoxicants. I'm not a pacifist. I was ROTC army, special studies in college and come from a proud military family. My grandfather was a Colonel of the 100th in WWII, the first of two all Japanese battalions who fought for the USA, and his lineage goes back to Samurai blood. And of course, I practice Shaolin style. I love a good fight. It may make me a bad Buddhist, and I'm working on that, but that's the way I am now. And to clarify, I'm not a "lay monk." I often say I'm the real fake monk, but in reality, I'm not a monk at all. I'm a lay disciple, wchi means I've take a few vows. I'm not giveing up my home yet.

On my agenda: You know, I've never really undertsood what someone means when they say "so and so has an agenda." Anyone who states anything has an agenda. I think what it means is that "so and so has a different opinion than mine." If that's the case, refer to my comment about being American above. But as for my agenda, my professional one in regards to being a publisher is to promote Chinese martial arts to the West. You cannot promote CMA to any depth without promoting Chinese culture. And you certainly can't do it with out any capital, so that's why I plug www.martialartsmart.com so much. So the Chinese opinion of America is directly related to my agenda, which is why I choose to offer those observations on the war. I was looking to incite dialogue - I look to do so with all of my articles on some level - so I'm very pleased to get so much response. Keep it coming!

[Becca]

That you could look apon this discussion with such an open mind, and smile gracefully at those who would bash your oppinion while spewing their own, shows that you are indeed a great person and wothy of the title "Respected American".

[GeneChing]

BJ - Long life crappy moose pie! It's what America is all about! Seriously, I love this country. And thanks for the props on the Xingyi article. I've been really getting into the chicken technique - it's surprisingly easy to use and pretty devastating when you throw some fajin into it.

BC - Smile? It's more like ROFLMAO! You gotta do that on the forum. The internet is the closest manifestation of working demoncracy that mankind has achieved thus far.

BG - I'm not clear about what you mean by
You do not have the right to free support from people who don't agree with what you say. But if it makes any difference, I welcome the criticism. In fact, I'm hoping that someone here can pose an argument that actually changes my mind on something. Something other than moose pies and bacon sammiches, that is.

XB - Get help.

[ewallace]

Something other than moose pies and bacon sammiches, that is.
What else is there?

[Radhnoti]

It's unfortunate that I enjoy Gene's writing style so much, as I so regularly disagree when he states his opinion on most issues.

How's that for a backhanded compliment!

:)

[Shuul Vis]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CAN WE NOT HAVE THIS CRAP ON THE KUNG FU FORUMS!!

I come here to read about kung fu not get angry at people that are too far away to smack. Lets talk about martial arts not politics, please!

[David Jamieson]

Guys, I'm pruning this thread.


And yes, I'm taking out all the posts that are personal attacks for no other reason than to attack each other.

If you guys can't play nice, don't play here.

That is all.

cheers

[old jong]

UHHHM?.... (http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2003/images/iraq-bill-of-rights.jpg)

[Becca]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Dat was funny!

[Christopher M]

ahahaha it's funny cause they died

[Ben Gash]

I've steadfastly ignored this thread up until now, so some of the stuff doesn't make sense after Kung Lek's attentions.
Why on earth is this a sticky? It was going to run solidly anyway, but really, it's not that important.
I mean what was Gene's point? That he was upset by some nasty stuff on TV?:confused:
Did Iraq have WMDs? Probably. They are known to have Chemical weapons (just ask the Kurds), and they had a nuclear weapon development programme (A few years ago we even intercepted some shipments of Uranium to them).
Was Saddam Hussein an aggressive tyrant? During his reign he attacked 3 of his neighbours (Iran, Kuwait and Israel) and comitted acts of genocide against ethnic groups in his own country. His secret police murdered thousands and tortured many others (if you've ever seen an Iraqi torture victim (I have) you'll have no doubts about the evil of his regime).
Did Iraq support terrorism? Saddam Hussein was directly responsible for the siege of the Iranian Embassy in London. Known PLO killers were found in Iraq. Saddam Hussein gave substantial financial assistance to the families of Hamas and Al Aksyr suicide bombers in Israel.
Was Iraq in material breach of 1441? Yes
Was the US justified in going to war? Is war ever really justified? At the end of the day war is deeply unpleasant and best avoided, but sadly sometimes other options just run out. It wasn't a great reason, but better than many.
Did the major international detractors have multi billion dollar oil deals with Iraq? Yes
Would I trust Bush to run my country in peace time? Not a hope.

[David Jamieson]

I've steadfastly ignored this thread up until now, so some of the stuff doesn't make sense after Kung Lek's attentions.

Ben-

I didn't remove anything pertinent to the topicality of the thread.

cheers

[Serpent]

Gene, you're one of the few Americans I respect. As I titled the thread, I called you a respected American.

Besides, anyone who questions the topicality of a political thread on KFO now can look at this small piece of genius on my part! I'm so proud. ;)

[GeneChing]

sp - Thanks. I'm basking in the attention youu've brought to me. :cool:

kl - Sorry you pruned this one, it makes of the dialogue nonsensical, but fair enough. Personal attacks on the forum don't really bother me. Actually I'm sort or flattered.
Dave Cater of IKF gave me this odd sideways piece of advice when I started this up. He said he didn't pay much attention to forums and when he first logged on to one, he posted "Dave Cater is an *******" under a troll name, just to see how many would agree. Now, that's not my style, but I respect that.

bg - My point was to set up the atmosphere of that trip. SARS and the war had a tremendous effect on that trip. There was a lot on Shaolin too, but I guess the politics of it overwhelmed that. Interesting....

oj - cute.

sv - There are a lot of ways to smack people, especially on the forum. It's jsut like a KF movie - we're all witing for the good fight scenes. ;) Besides, as followers of the warrior way, I think our differing opinions on the war couldn't be more relevant.

rnt - wow, I couldn't be more honored. Backhanded comments are the best, just like a backfisted jab.

[Shaolin-Do]

"there are even inexpensive massage parlors for that after training soreness"
bahahaha.
I bet you did like those "massage" parlors, eh gene?

[Black Jack]

and why is this a sticky?

[David Jamieson]

Gene-

The only posts I pruned were those were a couple of posters were personally attacking each other and using language innappropriate to the theme of the forum.

There really wasn't anything other than that in those posts that went.

I personally find this thread interesting in and of itself from an alternate perspective viewpoint.

cheers

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, that was my question as well Black Jack. I mean is it some kind of public announcement?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Black Jack
and why is this a sticky?

For no other reason than to pi$$ you off, redneck.

:)

[GeneChing]

I guess it was KL who made it sticky. While I appreciate the sentiment, I didn't feel that it was appropriate to make sticky either, so I just unstuck it.
I'm not fond of sticky threads (with the exception of ban warnings and promotions). Generally, I find sticky threads undemocratic. ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

Congrats gene, you just hit post #2222!
hehehe
Trying to dodge that massage parlor question eh?
:D

[Black Jack]

Got it, you socialist brown eye :)

[Serpent]

Can you feel the love?

[joedoe]

So you two are having a lover's quarrel? :D

[Ben Gash]

can we please end this?

[rogue]

Generally, I find sticky threads undemocratic. But what are your opinions of these Gene?

sticky rice
sticky fingers
sticky stuff under the seat of the bus
sticky floors in the movie theater
sticky situations
sticky subjects
sticky wickets

and tar baby?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
can we please end this?

What, this thread or me bickering with BlackJack?

I can't help myself, it's all too much fun.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by rogue
But what are your opinions of these Gene?

sticky rice
sticky fingers
sticky stuff under the seat of the bus
sticky floors in the movie theater
sticky situations
sticky subjects
sticky wickets

and tar baby?

Well, you asked Gene, but I'm happy to chime in. In order of your list I would say:

Very tasty
Often fun
Better not to know
What sort of theatres do you go to?
Always challenging
You mean people that pay homage to you? Why are they sticky?
If you're talking about the middle wicket then there's nothing wrong with that!

and rather politically incorrect.

[Ben Gash]

both :rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
both :rolleyes:

Well, if you want the thread to die, stop posting on it! ;)

[Becca]

"and rather politically incorrect."

Who ever said Briar Rabbit was politcally correct? I'd have figured you would be Briar Rabbit in another life...:D

[Serpent]

Who's that on the what now?

Briar wha...?

[Becca]

Briar Rabbit is a character in a popular children's story series. Sits around all day goofing off and out manuvering some incredably dumb bears. Tar Baby was a decoy he used once to trick said dumb bears.

[joedoe]

I think I know what you mean, but I thought that was a British children's story. And isn't it Brere rabbit? (or at least pronounced like that) Or are we talking about a different rabbit? :D

[Becca]

Oops, been too long since I've read it. He's a link to an abridged version.
Brer Rabbit and Tar-Baby (http://www.otmfan.com/html/brertar.htm)

[Serpent]

Aha! With you now! Talk about digging back in the old memory banks. Yep, it's an old British story - Bre'er Rabbit or Brer Rabbit. Another way of saying Brother Rabbit.

[Becca]

That's what happens when you have two kids you're trying to encourage to read... They have a whole book case of kiddie book. Most of which I have read way too many times.

[Serpent]

Man, I love kids books. Any of you guys know the Moomins?

[Ben Gash]

The Moomins? Have you been doing mushrooms again Serpent? A group of cuddly hippos?

[shaolin kungfu]

Have you been doing mushrooms again Serpent?

Again? did he ever stop?

[Becca]

Moomins (http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/moomieng.html)

[Ben Gash]

Seriously guys:rolleyes:

[joedoe]

Wassup Ben?

[shaolin kungfu]

That lady was on shrooms when she wrote that.

[Serpent]

Yay! The Moomins rule!

Ben, you need to find your inner child, dude! Try some shrooms. Works for me.

:)

[Becca]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
That lady was on shrooms when she wrote that.

Dr. Sues probably wasn't on the level, either. And kids love the odd stuff stoned adults spew. My kids love the band Presidents Of The United States.:D

[Serpent]

"Going to the country, gonna eat a lot of peaches!"

That band totally rocks. I saw them live here in Sydney right before they split up.

Most of the best children's stories came out in the 70's as all the old hippies from the 60's started trying to make a living writing out their beter psychodelic experiences.

Tell me Mr Ben isn't a dude hiding in a clothing store dropping acid.

[Ben Gash]

No, it's a tale of the tragic shortcomings of mental health care in the community.

[Ben Gash]

The shopkeeper was really his CPN (community psychiatric nurse).

[shaolin kungfu]

That band kicks ass.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
The shopkeeper was really his CPN (community psychiatric nurse).

Interesting point of view. Hadn't thought of it like that before.

But I prefer the acid theory. ;)

[GeneChing]

s-d: Sorry missed that massage question. Actually, the massage was a foot wash. A local friend in Dengfeng said he wanted to treat me to a footwash on the last night of my stay. I was suspicious if this was going to lead to more, or even why they hell I would want such a service. We were seated like in the picture on these beat up lazyboy chairs and served some kind of bean flavored popsicle. The girls massaged our legs for a good half and hour as our feet soaked in a really hot herbal liquid, then they did a full pedicure - nail trim, callous scraping, no nail polish tho, then they massaged our feet for a while, then they washed our feet in soapy water. It was a lot of foreplay for that wash. I felt great after. We were watching tv throughout - Leslie Chung's suicide was all over. He was great in A better tomorrow (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/movjohwoocyu.html).

As for that sticky question posed to me earlier, I'll default to the gospel of Montrose -
Lord! Oh, yeah.
When you need a friend through thick and thin
Don't look to those above you.
When you're down and out, ain't no doubt
Nobody wants you.

But you're rock candy baby
Hard, sweet and sticky.
Rock candy baby
Hard, sweet and sticky.

When you're seventeen reachin' for your dreams
Don't let no one reach it for you.
Pull up your pants,
Stretch out take a chance.
If it can be done, you can do it.

[Serpent]

Nice work, Gene.

[GeneChing]

Is this your clever ttt strategy? ;)

[David Jamieson]

MONTROSE ROCKS!

That was the apex of rock and roll imo :D
Good old sammy belting out:

"just quit my job making toothpicks out of logs.."

anyway, I didn't make it sticky, must have been an errant hand somewhere!:eek:

cheers

[GeneChing]

KL- If you didn't, who did? Ninjas no doubt. How bizarre...

NOt sure that I agree with you on Montrose as the apex, but Rock Candy was a rocker for sure. Some women still can make me hum that song just by walking by...:cool:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Is this your clever ttt strategy? ;)

One of many! ;)

But it was a heartfelt congratulation all the same.

[GeneChing]

In this business, I'll take all the props I can get. Thanks for encouraging my behavior.

[@PLUGO]

On July 20, 1879 an undersized thirty-year-old journalist from Atlanta known as Joe Harris began a journey from relative obscurity to interregional fame. On that day, the Atlanta Constitution published the young copy editor's "Story of Mr. Rabbit and Mr. Fox as told by Uncle Remus (http://turing.gcsu.edu/~jma/edres/uncleremusmuseum.htm)." Within months, magazines across the country were reprinting his tales, and after more than 1,000 written requests for a collection, the first Uncle Remus book was published in November, 1880.

At the time, Harris said his purpose was not ethnology, or folklore analysis, but simply documentation. He doubted that his stories and character sketches would have any lasting historical value. He was wrong (http://liaisons.ou.edu/~lgibbs/myth/09_remus/index.htm).

Tar Baby: (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=73105&tocid=0)
sticky tar doll, the central figure in black American folktales popularized in written literature by the American author Joel Chandler Harris . Harris' “Tar-Baby” (1879), one of the animal tales told by the character Uncle Remus, is but one example of numerous African-derived tales featuring the use of a wax, gum, or rubber figure to trap a rascal.

Particularly tales of Ananse (http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/o/x/oxf3/Ananse_the_spider.html) the trickster Spider of Africa:

. . .Then the spider came back, carved an Aku’as child, a black flat-faced wooden doll, tapped some sticky fluid from a tree (in some variations of the myth, the doll is made of web.) and plastered the doll’s body with it. Then he made eto, punded yams, and put some in the doll’s hand. Again he pounded some more and placed it in a brass basin; he tied string, and the doll nodded her head. The fairy turned to one of the sisters, saying, "She says I may eat some." She said, "Eat some, then." And she finished eating, and thanked her. But she thanked her, the doll did not answer. And the fairy said to her sister, "When I thank her, she does nto reply." The sister of the first said said, "Slap her crying-place." And she slapped it, pa! and her hand stuck there. She said to her sister, "My hand has stuck there." She sia,d "Take the one that remains and slap her crying-place again." And she took it and slapped her, pa! and this one, too, stuck fast. And the fairy told her sister, saying, "My hands have stuck fast." She said, "Push it with your stomach." She pushed it and her stomach stuck with it. And Ananse came and tied her up, and he said, "Fool, I have got you, I shall take you to the sky god inexchange for his stories." And he went off home with her.

just so you all know...

[Christopher M]

Ancient experience has indeed shown that wax, gum, or rubber figures are ideal means of catching rascals.

Modern advances in nutritional science though, have elucidated that now-popular maxim "you are what you eat."

The problem with hunting and trapping rascals, then, is that you're bound to become one yourself.

To this end, many would recommend you track some better fare for your diet; and experience bears out that you can catch plenty of this with another sticky substance, honey.

[Christopher M]

ZIM - http://deadjunkie.com/~sigma/sigmasix/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=32&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[GeneChing]

You all remember that SNL sketch where Chevy Chase is doing a word assocation interview with Richard Pryor as Pryor is applying for a job as a janitor? When Chevy Chase said "Tar Baby," man I still laugh at that just thinking about it. What a classic routine.

[John Weiland]

http://www.bigfatbaby.com/newfun2/flash/saddamgone.cfm

[GeneChing]

I think you misread me. It's great that Saddam's regime came down. I only wish that, like Bin Laden, we actually got Saddam and those weapons of mass destruction. Our failure to do so has made us lose face internationally. My whiny rant was more to show how what the war looked like from China. When you consider that they have the largest army in the world and were listing along with Iraq as one of the nations that might require nuking, I think that's pretty important.

Now anyone who has read the Bible knows the kicker is Revelations. When does that come to pass. I'm just searching for the signs. There have already been several - money bears the mark of the beast in IPC, the star wormwood fell, now the horseman. So while some people are concerned with national pride, I'm actually looking at something much bigger, something of biblical proportions.

You may think it's the end, but it's just he beginning...

[ZIM]

Thanks for that link, CM

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Now anyone who has read the Bible knows the kicker is Revelations. When does that come to pass. I'm just searching for the signs. There have already been several - money bears the mark of the beast in IPC, the star wormwood fell, now the horseman. So while some people are concerned with national pride, I'm actually looking at something much bigger, something of biblical proportions.

You may think it's the end, but it's just he beginning...

What's that about the money and the wormwood?

And to be fair, just because America had a war and SARS was a media frenzy, the horsemen have been among us for decades. How many people die in wars in Africa all the time? Aceh? Israel/Palestine, etc.? How many people die every die from malaria? Far more than have died in total from SARS.

But I'm still interested in your observations.

[@PLUGO]

The Russian word for wormwood is CHERNOBAL... you know like that powerplant that melted... ;)

& there's a fairly popular theory that The USC codes (those bar codes) can be broken down into 666... there's a sort of number system to it. I forget. But the whole thing about it is that if you want to officially "sell" something you need to get a upc code for it.

Well something like that, so that's what I could see at the mark of the beast...

[GeneChing]

Until the Bible is done by a good comic book artist, Design Sifu won't read it :p

For Chernobyl (Russian for "wormwood") see REV 8:10-11
"10 The third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven burning as if it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers and upon the fountains of waters. 11The name of the star is called Wormwood. The third part of the waters became wormwood, and many men died of the waters because they were made bitter."

For the UPC (universal price code) just look at one carefully. You can break down the code pretty easily, just look the numbers long enough. They have three longer lines, one in the center, two on either side. Theses are thin double lines used to tell the wand where the beginning and end are. If you break down the code, you'll find those are 6s. 666. See REV 13:16-18
"16 And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in the right hand or in their foreheads, 17and that no man might buy or sell save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. And his number is 666."

If you really get into REV, there are more. In fact, for those of us who study prophecy, well, let me just say it is the most terrifying area of research you'll ever pursue. But it's always hard to determine how much is projection and how much is metaphor. What if the old dragon really did rise in our time? Would you be ready? Would you have read the signs properly?

[@PLUGO]

I'll have you know that I've already read several comicbook adaptations of the Bible!!! :mad:

Handed to me in my youth by some of my very christian aunts & uncles... :rolleyes:

While in Art School I even set out to do my own version of an adaptation of REVELATIONS (the one story most suitable for comic adaptation but to date not quite successfully schieved).

Though I have to say the old Moses adventures I read as a kid where pretty good. :p

So Gene, while reading signs in revelations was a hobby for me during the late 80's I've since desided I'd rather track the Mayan 2012 countdown myself!!!

[Serpent]

Now all I want to do is listen to some Iron Maiden!

[GeneChing]

ds - Good luck with that Mayan calendar. I'm sure it will predict the millennium bug just as well as our Gregorian one.

sp - When I sold fencing gear, Bruce ****enson used to drop by the store whenever he was in town. Thsi one's for you -

You're Children of The ****ed
Your back's against the wall
You turn into the light
You're Children of The ****ed
Like candles watch them burn
Burning in the light
You'll burn again tonight
You're Children of The ****ed

[@PLUGO]

man that's old news...

it's all about the 9 years towards TIMEWAVE ZERO!!! (http://fusionanomaly.net/timewavezero.html)

:p

[chen zhen]

Ashcroft sez:
say whaa'..?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GeneChing
ds - Good luck with that Mayan calendar. I'm sure it will predict the millennium bug just as well as our Gregorian one.

sp - When I sold fencing gear, Bruce ****enson used to drop by the store whenever he was in town. Thsi one's for you -

You're Children of The ****ed
Your back's against the wall
You turn into the light
You're Children of The ****ed
Like candles watch them burn
Burning in the light
You'll burn again tonight
You're Children of The ****ed

That's awesome!

:D

[GeneChing]

ds- We'll see if timewave zero gets more press then the millennium bug...or more effect...

sp- Doesn't it make your heart feel good that just the mention of Maiden kicks on our censors here like crazy? Gotta love that.

[@PLUGO]

We'll see if timewave zero gets more press then the millennium bug

who cares about the press . . .

Keep it Underground where all paradigm shifts are best!!!!

;)

[David Jamieson]

http://fusionanomaly.net/kungfu.html

:p

Timewave zero is pretty funky.

[@PLUGO]

Well as the Prophter what'shisname said . . .

Bring on the FUNK!!!

:p

[GeneChing]

What is an underground apocalypse? When comics are banned? That's just silly. Underground paradigm shifts are like when the Wolverine debuts in the Hulk. Only geeks care. :rolleyes:

I'm talking apocalypse here. The pale horse of the apocalypse. SARS, monkeypox, meningitis. Biblical proportions. Dogs and cats living together. ;)

[@PLUGO]

What is an underground apocalypse?

in other words... The Revolution Will not be Televised...:rolleyes:

So, are you saying your Apocalypse will be bigger than mine?

Besides... JC said it best...
"the geeks shall inherit the earth";) :p ;)

So what's up with your sudden anti-comic posturing? Is it no longer a legitimate art form?

[GeneChing]

...and longer and harder.

Actually, it's kind of a funny notion, one that I've been working on for a while now - relative apocalypse. I always come back to that tale of Cortez and the Aztecs... or was it the Mayans? Anyway, Cortez comes in and fulfills the prophecy of their apocalypse. Westerners always read this as colonists taking advantage of primative native fears and superstition, but for the native americans, their prophecy was fulfilled. I find that amazing. It's sort of a perspective thing - a self fufilling prophecy but on a cultural level. In today's society, where we can choose our external belief system, that is very interesting. However, to get back to my apocalypse being bigger, longer and harder, in our society, Christianity is so embedded in our culture that even if your not Christian, should their apocalypse take place, it will have a dramatic effect on our lives. As for untelevised revolutions, well, we just had an untelevised war, so who really knows hat's out there?

I'm been wondering when you would comment on my comic-busting. To quote Margie "j/k" But as comics as a legitimate art form, I have one comment - Archie comics. :p

[Serpent]

You know Christians have this belief that eventually they will all be taken up and only the unbelievers will be left behind (I believe there's even a huge series of novels based on this concept)?

Anyway, I really wish that would happen so we could get rid of all the f#$@ing Christians.

[@PLUGO]

Just 'cause i might think Bob Marley's music sucks does that mean Reggae or Music on a whole suck?

Just because a given piece (in this case Archie-which could actually be consider a success on several terms) doen't apeal to your value system does that invalidate the medium?


oh and Cortez crashed the Aztec party... The Mayan already spilt the scene...

[jun_erh]

Gene is a total iaswaj* liberal

*"I agree Saddam was a jerk"





America is being Crucified
"Are you still down?" -Tupac Shakur

[GeneChing]

sp - Hmm, so how do we non-beleivers know that this hasn't already happened?:eek:

ds - If you think Marley sucks, you probably think reggae sucks. Come on, think that one through. But let me ask you this - why do comics even bother to insist that they are a "legitamate art form"? Why do they have ad campaigns with Tori, Madonna and Jade? What does that tell you about them if they need to do that? :rolleyes:

je - I suppose now is not a good time to tell you I've just started the Koran... :p

[chen zhen]

Why would it be?
It's always interesting to look at other religion's sayings.

[@PLUGO]

Gene...

wow you're missing my point about marley/reggae&music on a whole...

There's a difference between Comics as an Art Form & comic books as an industry...

The industry has probably done the most to hamper the growth of the art form especially in fostering the narrow view of comics as soap opera's for Boys...

A Short History of Censorship in Comics (http://www.cbldf.org/history.shtml)

1950's: Dr. Fredric Wertham publishes "Seduction of the Innocent", a book purporting that comic book reading causes juvenile delinquency. In true McCarthy-era fashion, the U.S. Senate holds hearings to investigate Wertham's claims. The Comics Code Authority (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8580/cca.html) is formed prohibiting any controversial comics. As a result, the most innovative company of the decade, EC Comics, is forced to cancel most of its line. This includes titles like Vault of Horror and Tales From the Crypt, which years later are judged to be classics.

Now, the comics code was set up as a reaction to those Senate investigations and some would claim it was written by EC's competitors, who published primarily "kid stuff" type comics. As a result, the following decades continued to foster the misconception of comics as "kid's stuff." You only have to look outside the U.S. to notice that such a view isn't really shared by the world at large. Here's a word MANGA.

50+ years later the industry (still renowned for stupid mistakes) is suffering under an ever shrinking market and has realized (with the aid of the recient comic-to-movie trend) they need to reach out from under fat-beard stereotype and make comics both accessable & appealing to the "main-stream." Hence the Tori, Madonna and Jade ad campaigns. Whether it works or not remains to be seen.

Now as an Art form there's a different story... you have only to read Mauz, Anything by Joe Sacco or the ACME Novelty Library to notice that the Form itself is still capable of offering artistic pieces that surpass the narrow view of soap-operas for boys or geek-stuff. Or have a look at the works of Roy Lichtenstein (http://www.lichtensteinfoundation.org/), He obviously doesn't work in the medium of Comics but it's influences upon his work should be obvious.

Perhaps you should consider placing Understanding Comics (http://www.scottmccloud.com/store/books/uc.html) on your reading list.
:rolleyes:

[Shaolin-Do]

"Anyway, I really wish that would happen so we could get rid of all the f#$@ing Christians."
roflmao

"if you think Bob Marley sucks"
*GASP!*
*GASP AGAIN!*
What?!?!?!?!? How dare you speak upon his holiness as such!!!!!
Bob Marley is a god.
We be jammin.




:D
If only they had one with a fat azz doob hangin out his face...
:)

[@PLUGO]

I don't think Bob Marley sucks...

I was just using that to illustrate an example...

Opinion doesn't equal Objective fact or whatever . . .

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
You know Christians have this belief that eventually they will all be taken up and only the unbelievers will be left behind

I know you're partly kidding here... but for the other part, it may be worth pointing out you're confusing Protestantism specifically for Christianity generally. Although the American culture is overwhelmingly Protestant, Christianity in general (both contemporarily, and especially historically) isn't. Non-Protestant Christianity is explicitly anti-apocalyptic. In other words, not only do they not endorse the above kind of thinking - they actively discourage it. It's easy to realize why this is the case from the observation that Christianity evolved originally from a re-thinking of Judaic thought, with one of the major differences being the change from a fundamental attitude of "will happen" to "has happened/is happening."

[Serpent]

Thanks for the clarification - I didn't know that was just the Protestants. I know the authors of that series of books are American, however, and the profusion of Protestants in America, etc... Hadn't made the connection till you pointed it out.

America is recognised as a fundamentally religious country (which is fantastic irony as so many Americans are opposed to "religious fundamentalism" thinking that only means Islamic extremists!) After all, Bush can't make a speech without reference to god, you had a reference to god put in the pledge that seems to be permanent now, etc., etc. (seperation of church and state, my ass!) So, is this predominance of Christian thought Protestant throughout the US? What about Catholics, Anglican, etc. - are they all very much a minority?

[joedoe]

I thought there was a fairly good sized Catholic population in America too (I guess due to the Spanish/Hispanic and Irish backgrounds).

[Christopher M]

I pretty much agree with your remarks about America. They pay alot of lip service to separation of church and state, but Canada and Australia, for instance, do a much better job of it - and without ranting about it nearly as much.

I'm not saying the lack of church-state seperation is necessarily a bad thing (although, as a personal opinion, I do happen to believe that quite strongly); but I think the hypocrisy and culture of misconception it creates is definitely (even objectively) a bad thing.

As for America's religious culture, yes I believe it is fundamentally protestant. The foundation of the country was highly interwoven with protestant thought, the "Christian Right" is protestant, the "Bible Belt" is protestant, and the religious leanings of the president are protestant. In other words, the things you think of as Christian in America are all protestant.

Again, not to say there's anything wrong with that; just to say that it's a real, and important, distinction.

Anglicans, technically speaking, are protestant. However, the Anglican movement isn't as historically interwoven with the fundamental protestant thinkers (eg. Calvin, Luther) as other protestant churches; perhaps because of this, there is a sub-culture among Anglicans who are very Catholic. Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/) has a good little entry on them (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Catholicism), as well as Christianity (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) in general, and of course a whole lot of other topics.

Curiously, these Anglo-Catholics are often "more Catholic" than contemporary Catholics. The second vatican council (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) (1965) made some profound changes in Catholic practice, which included significant changes in mass (eg. turning the priest and altar around to face the congregation and getting rid of the latin and chanting). Anglican churches involved in the Anglo-Catholic movement are one of the only places to find the "old" Catholic practices these days. These changes to Catholicism are part of a larger movement of Catholicism becoming influenced by protestant thought. Part of the impetus for this movement is how Catholicism and Protestantism are widely confused by people at large.

This is all just to say that American Catholicism, allready a minority (in cultural influence) is progressively becoming itself "more Protestant." Traditional Catholics (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Catholic) and related offshoots such as the Old Catholic Church (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church) are, in many ways, better sources of Catholic thought; however they suffer dramatically from small numbers, marginalism, and a failure of institutional integrity - all to say, they have really limited impact on popular culture. Eastern Orthodox (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox) and Eastern Rite (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Rites) churches are other good sources, and benefit from large numbers and long-standing institutional tradition, however insofar as they come across as being foreign and strange, they also have very limited wide-spread cultural impact.

It's not so much that any of these groups, or all of them together, have small numbers; rather, for various reasons they just have minimal impact on popular cultural conception. Partly because their obscurity causes the popular conception to overlay a limited understanding of them with Protestant thought. (Another factor is, as noted, that Catholicism and even more so, Orthodox, are primarily active in specific cultural groups, as opposed to American culture proper)

For instance, while most people recognize the old/stodgy/formal/ritualistic/conservative aspects of Catholicism, they tend to attribute to Catholicism the rigid sort of Protestant theology which is much more popular culturally. The result is a hodge-podge religion which doesn't actually exist. However, this becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy as it becomes ingrained in the popular conception: people who get this idea and like it are attracted to the Catholic church and then perpetuate this idea "from the inside", and also people have a habit of forming their beliefs in reaction to popular conception (whether to affirm or oppose). Hence the aforementioned "Protestantization" of formal Catholicism (particularly in America).

Er... I hope the answer you were looking for was somewhere in there. ;)

[Serpent]

Great post, Chris, thanks very much for your time.

One thing that stands out, and will no doubt raise more ire from the likes of Blackjack, is that it would seem that American religious life is a snapshot of American cultural identity globally.

Bush himself said, "We impose our values on the world, we must not impose our culture". That's paraphrased, but close enough. However, it is blindingly obvious that American culture is being pushed worldwide through American products, movies, etc. The Americanisation of other countries, especially in Australia, is becoming frighteningly prevalent.

It seems that a similar thing is happening in the US, religiously. If you take the various world cultures and view the spreading affect of Americanism as a model you could compare, within the US, the "other" religions as the rest of the world and Protestantism as America.

Interesting.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent
Great post, Chris, thanks very much for your time.

One thing that stands out, and will no doubt raise more ire from the likes of Blackjack, is that it would seem that American religious life is a snapshot of American cultural identity globally.

Bush himself said, "We impose our values on the world, we must not impose our culture". That's paraphrased, but close enough. However, it is blindingly obvious that American culture is being pushed worldwide through American products, movies, etc. The Americanisation of other countries, especially in Australia, is becoming frighteningly prevalent.

It seems that a similar thing is happening in the US, religiously. If you take the various world cultures and view the spreading affect of Americanism as a model you could compare, within the US, the "other" religions as the rest of the world and Protestantism as America.

Interesting.

I always liked this quote:

'The United States has been called a “melting pot” because it boils away the character of immigrants from many diverse backgrounds and nationalities.'

From http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0105/guide/index.fm

[Serpent]

LOL.

:D

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by joedoe


I always liked this quote:

'The United States has been called a “melting pot” because it boils away the character of immigrants from many diverse backgrounds and nationalities.'

Great quote, IME, I have to agree with it.

I have seen this with a few friends of mine that moved there, after a few years they seem to be more "American" than their own background and nationality.

Cheers.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
However, it is blindingly obvious that American culture is being pushed worldwide through American products, movies, etc.

Yep. It's a difficult situation. Global-level policy is largely a tug-of-war between supernationalists and isolationists; however, both of these models can lead to the above phenomenon. The supernationalists, following a philosophy that human striving (and thus the ideal environment for it's satisfaction) is universal, believe in a power structure which ignores national borders for politics and culture, and so explicitly support the above. The isolationists, following a philosophy that unique contexts dictate the specifics of human striving (and, more specifically, the ideal environment for it's satisfaction), strongly oppose this idea. However, just as central to their model is the idea of free and complete movement of goods and ideas across national borders. It's implicit here rather than explicit: but the idea is that if you have a truly free exchange of goods and ideas, then this itself will h0m0genize culture.

I really don't know any solution to this problem. I guess I try to hope that increasing education levels, information access and global exposure will result in a sensitivity and appreciation for cultural diversity which will allow free trade of goods and ideas without h0m0genizing culture. That's just a hope though, not a prediction. ;) (And it would only "solve" the problem for one of the models; the one which currently seems to be in the minority)

Of course, that doesn't help the problem of American culture sucking. :eek: :D


Great post, Chris, thanks very much for your time.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I hope I don't come across too much as abrasive or preaching. I know I do still, for which I'm sorry, but I'm trying not to. I think it's hard when you think you have a serious idea, especially in religion or politics! :eek:

[Becca]

Have seen this, too. I study Kung Fu with a nice lady but she had an odd, very fieghnt accent I couldn't place. I had no clue what country she orriginally came from untill the New Year's Eve party at her house. It was kind'a hard to miss her and her brother speeking German to each other. Her brother's only been in America for 6 months, so his accent is easilly recognized.

[Serpent]

Chris - I don't mind preaching when it's well informed and well intentioned. I really didn't find your posts abrasive at all. Intelligent, insightful and well written, in fact!

I think that Australia is a great example of a multi-cultural society. There is definitely a distinctly Australian culture that tends to pervade everyone to one degree or another, yet we also have a remarkable mix of races and cultures, all of whom still celebrate their diversity. It's one of the things that really attracted me to Australia in the first place.

Now, we certainly have our fair share of racism and bigotry too, but I think that overall we do a pretty good job. We embrace diversity and don't try to Australian-ise it.

[MasterKiller]

We embrace diversity and don't try to Australian-ise it.
Yeah, that whole 'breed-out-the-aborigines' thing was the epitomey of diversity. I hear Maori's really like their reservations in New Zealand, too.

[GeneChing]

ds -

wow you're missing my point about marley/reggae&music on a whole... you sure you have one? Looks like MK has my back on this. Not up there, down here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=23264) :p

cm - love your posts, man. you're really chipping on this. good for you. we should nickname you the "preacher" ;)

[MasterKiller]

Gene,
I'm your wingman on this one. BTW, Design Sifu is serving you up on a platter in the Media Forum (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=344265#post344265)

[@PLUGO]

Preacher was a great comic . . . probably Garth Ennis's last really good work. His punisher seems popular but it's a bit if a one trick poney...

Master Killer's just still mad cause his boy Darth Maul was defeated by a comic villian...

Gene, i'm certian i had a point... it seems that like comics, you've deemed answering my question as unworthy

. . . S O B . . .

So, it seems to me your presenting your "opinion" of comics as an objective fact.

I'll directly ask "do you believe comics is, or is not, a legitamate art form?"

if so why?

if not, WHY not?

[GeneChing]

To be honest, I don't even know what 'legitimate art form' means. Look at performance art. Is that legitimate? Who is on the board of art legitimacy?

Now you know I enjoy comics. I don't collect them or anything, but if a comic comes my way and I have time to read it, I might. What amuses me about this whole dialog on this is our different perspective on this. You seem to want to defend comics as art. I think it's preposterous for someone to have to say that it's art. There's a defensiveness about comic fans that they aren't geeks, they're really Madonna, Tori and Jade Pinkett Smith. Like, that's why I read comics, for the hot chicks. Nothing can seduce a hottie faster than being up on your comic trivia.

Is it a legit art? As much as anything else, I suppose. Why do comic people fell they have to be legit? That's the real question here.

[Serpent]

That's right, Gene. We know we're the coolest. We were just trying to help you out a little and improve your persona to be as cool as ours, but if you don't want it...

*shrug*

[@PLUGO]

hahah.. I knew I'd get this thred hijacked...

Gene's still answering a question with a question but that's okay... I'll let him save some face :p

gene did you read my post on the difference between the Comic-books industry & Comics as a form?

[GeneChing]

You are only a legitimate art form when you don't have to claim so. Think about that.

The more you get caught up in theory, the further you get from the reality of the situation. You guys are drawing defensive lines that are more harmful. Just enjoy your comics. Who cares if it's legitimate art? To make such a claim is just a testament to geekyness.

Grab all the allies you want on the media forum. Nothing like fighting a legion of geeks. Remember, the more you defend this point, the more it appears that it's something to be ashamed of... :p

[MasterKiller]

I posted this on the HEY COMICS BOOK D ORKs thread, but I'll reiterate here with a little more depth. Last night, History Channel showed a 2-hour special on the history of comics. They started with Crime books, etc, and went over all the stuff CSN and DS have been telling us about government crack-downs, and self-censorship, etc.

Basically, it was 2 hours of guys saying, "Comics are a legitimate art form, even though no one outside of comics thinks so."

Still, some of the info was interesting....self-indulgent, but interesting.

What I can appreciate from comics is that they propel archetypical figures into the mainstream, which is important for young people because they can relate with the updated iterations of old characters and motifs.

[@PLUGO]

Gene:
You're still answering questions I haven't asked and not answering questions that I have asked.

Your claiming that I'm claiming that "Comics are a legitamate art form." In actuality I've been asking you to define weither you believe this to be the case or not. The closest you've come to an answer is . . .

"To be honest, I don't even know what 'legitimate art form' means."

... a fair enough answer.

You still seem to to lump Comics the form with comic-books the industry. I for my part continue to attempt to clarify the difference. IMO the movement of the industry into a mainstream position akin to Japan's Manga would clarify that distinction. A distinction I'm still not sure you've made or are willing to.
it's okay Gene . . . just breath, the uncertainty will pass... ;)

You are only a legitimate art form when you don't have to claim so. Think about that.

What makes you think I'm unaware of this? Again, it's the industry seeking to broaden it's readership using campaigns like "Madonna reads comics." Meanwhile the Art-form is moved forward very quietly in works like Alan Moore's ABC line and Chris Ware's Acme Novelty Library (http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/acme/acme.html).

Now, my question to you is... will you be able to tell the differences?

[GeneChing]

There was this guy I used to spar. He hated being popped on the nose. Whenever I popped him on the nose, he would start "fanning" - blocking wildly back and forth like a windshield wiper. This made it easier to pop him on the nose.

What I'm attacking with you is your knee-jerk defensiveness about comics as an art form. It's demonstrates that fanaticsim we've affectionately nicknamed "geek-dom". What you've been responding with is more knee-jerk defensiveness.

Now I believe practicing to kill someone can be an art. Does that make martial arts a legitimate art form. There's a lot of crappy martial arts. Frankly I don't care whether it's legitimate or not. I enjoy my practice and enjoy the practice of others.

Are comics an art? As much as anything can be an art, sure. If you enjoy them, who cares? You know I enjoy a good comic now and then, but I'm not going to put it up on some pedestal. Comics are like movies only a little more nerdy. Most of the media sucks, but there are some good ones every once in a while. Are movies a legitimate art form? As much as comics, I suppose. My question to you is simple - why is it so important for comics to be an art to you?

Is Playboy an art? think carefully before you answer that one - it's a trap.;)

Go get your geek friends to back you up here, because you're not really making any sense any more. You're talking about a lot of stuff that only other comic geeks will appreciate, and I totally respect that. We do it here in the martial arts all the time. Obviously I can distinguish between Archie comics and something of the calibre of Barefoot Gen, but I'll never never never let you live down Archie comics. Never. In fact, I'm thinking of getting you a subscription. It's like that pop in the nose. :p

[Serpent]

Hey, you guys work in the same building, right? Just settle this with an arm wrestle or something!

LOL.

:D

[GeneChing]

Actually, we work in the same office even...:rolleyes:

[norther practitioner]

There's a lot of crappy martial arts.

Didn't think I'd here the pc Gene say that...

I can just see the two of you looking over your shoulders when you realize the other is posting on this thread :D .

[@PLUGO]

We actually sit accross the office from each other, attempting to maintain straight faces as we post... the only clue, the tell tale tapping on a key board!!!

Now, getting back on topic:rolleyes:


Is Playboy an art? think carefully before you answer that one - it's a trap.

There's an art to being a playboy

& there's art in the rendering of the nude figure...

There may even be art in Journalism...Naaaa, doubt it[/b]


Art records & CD's art?

Is the music imprinted upon them?

Your stories on sparring someone's nose is funny, you've shared it with me before . . .

But your "baiting" is feeble...
"but I'll never never never let you live down Archie comics. Never. In fact, I'm thinking of getting you a subscription. It's like that pop in the nose.

Is that suppose to get me riled?
Am I supposed to become [i]embarrassed at the mention of Archie (http://www.toonopedia.com/archie.htm) Comics (http://www.mindspring.com/~johannadc/gn/archie.html)? It's one of the more consistantly successful comic-book publishers in the U.S.

dude . . . c'mon, get a clue. (http://www.archiecomics.com/25.html)

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Serpent
Bush can't make a speech without reference to god, you had a reference to god put in the pledge that seems to be permanent now, etc., etc. (seperation of church and state, my ass!)

Lol ... son, don't worry your head about it. Separation of church and state was never part of our constitution. I don't expect you to know that because many Americans don't know it. They have heard the opposite, a lie, for so long they actually believe it now. Ironically separation of church and state was a phrase written in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Baptists. The Baptists at that time were being ridiculed and some killed for their beliefs. They feared that the Government would choose a national denomination like they had in England, thus outlawing their denomination. Jefferson's letter was an assurance that that would never happen. Our country was formed with religious principles and morals, it was just not to embrace one particular denomination. Bottom line, "separation of church and state" is not a constitutional byproduct. Whether or not you think this is right is a totally different topic. I assume by your hatred of Christians you have mentioned, that you are in favor of it.

[chen zhen]

Jeeezus christ! (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushjesus.htm)
:D

[GeneChing]

But your "baiting" is feeble...
Don't think so. If it was, you wouldn't respond :p


Is that suppose to get me riled?
You already are riled, or you wouldn't respond :p :p

You know, I've always thought that your comic style would be best suited for Archie comics. I think you could draw a fine Jughead if you point your effort to it :p :p :p

[@PLUGO]

Oh Gene . . . you're slaying me . . .

Your posts are getting more & more minimalist...

I wouldn't respond if I wasn't riled?:eek: . . . Jeeze . . .

Your still try to save face.
here...
:p
:p
:p
:p
:p
:p
:p

Of course I could draw a great Jughead... I can do Fred Flintstone & Mickymouse as well . . . you've already seen my Pooh making abilities ;)

But if you truely think you're handing me the"beat down" with the Archie line I'll have to loosely quote one of my favorate cross-dressing 'toons . . .

You don't know me veawe well do yeah...

[Becca]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
. . . you've already seen my Pooh making abilities ;)


Taken out of context, this line could really be taken wrong.:p

[chen zhen]

Depends on what you first thought it meant
:p

[Shaolin-Do]

uguh.,.,.
2 kegs.. 3 I mean. 2 got in the way.
gmm........
wheres everyone at?
Its moving slow for 5 something or rather in tha am.
yes............
Didnt had cat fppd///
food.
Gave her 8$/lb ham... only a little tho.,,
:D

They should hqav a smiley face with whisky breath,

[Shaolin-Do]

Edit: I will no longer play drinking games with shiney boc k.

[GeneChing]

Patrick, it's time to reveiw our little flame war here. Your posts are not making any sense to me anymore.
It seems to have started back on page 9 where I called you on a biblical reference. You post 3 links to Archie comics, but can't reference the bible well? Anyway, I teased you about biblical comics and you brought up the Mayan calendar. The we batted around notions of apocalypse, which was actually somewhat relavent to this thread, and you brought up the idea of an underground apocalypse. I mentioned the aztec apocalypse as an example of an apocalypse that no one really cared about any more - a prophecy fulfilled but not remembered. And I teased you about comics again, bringing up Archie comics. You made some reggae analogy that didn't quite work. Oh, and back there on page 10 was the "legitimate art form" point and there was the madonna thing that was very amusing. On page 11 you posted a very eloquent point about comis as art vs. comics as industry. As far as I can see, that was your undoing. Up until this point, I was just teasing you about comics because I know what a comic fan you are and your rushing to defend something that was not in question was funny to me. So I started poking at your fanaticism. I suppose that was my mistake. One should never mess with another man's fanaticism and not expect a flame war here.

My point, in a nutshell, is why do you have to defend comics? You kept coming back by defending comics, adding patronizing comics like you were winning the debate. But in fact, it seems you've missed the point entirely.

I answered you question about legitimacy. Can you answer my question about defending comics without resorting to defending them again?

It'a all about Jughead...;)

[@PLUGO]

Great summery there Gene... we almost did a full circle but would have had to included Iraq in that post to fully sumerize this thread.

Why defend comics?
Why not?

Why defend a religious view?

For me, I've been enjoying the opportunity to whip up a semi-religious fervor over as trivial a matter as a "view."

Is comics an art?
Was Jesus influenced by Buddhism?
Is a Revelations type of appocalye any more likely than the Mayan end of time?

The underground apocalypse was an allusion to a sub-culture's, I'll call the "post-Rave scene," adoption of that contradiction. I don't presently recall the context of it, but remember it as a reply to somethig someone else said... perhaps it was Kung Lek?

The patronizing/teasing has been a mutual Taking the p!ss, if I may quote one of my english pals. At this point it seems to have passed it's shelf life. Sigh... fun while it lasted... I'll miss these precious moments.

...so; what was the question? ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

You are both lucky I dont work in your office.
:D

[@PLUGO]

No Arguement there!!!

[GeneChing]

Why defend comics?
Why not?

Why defend a religious view?

It's that religious fervor about comics that I question. You almost sounded serious there for a bit. ;)

[dezhen2001]

Gene: did you say that you were interestd in apocalyptical stuff? I couldnt make sense f the thread :confused:

if youre interested in finding some of the islamic stuff (which is questionable anyway) PM me and i can probably dig out a few articles :)

sorry for barging in on your office fun :D

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

" Separation of church and state was never part of our constitution"

A complete lie: look at the FIRST AMENDMENT

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

THAT is seperation of chuch and state, liar.

[@PLUGO]

It's that religious fervor about comics that I question.

Why question it?

I didn't notice any questioning, on your part, of the religious fervor exhibited a few pages back before the commical topic shift. . . hmmmmm

Is religious fervor reserved only for . . . ah, "religions?"

dawood:

I would love to read what you may dig up of the questionable islamic apocalyptical stuff....

post a link . . .

preferably to the comic version :D

[dezhen2001]

DS: i will see what i can find :)

i know one guy who wanted to do a comic story of the beginnings of Islam and the prophet Muhammed (saw) yet some people (most i have met) take such a strange view that his likeness should not and cannot be drawn so the poor guy was hounded by his community :(

Really annoying.

i will post once i got some links - ties in to the 666 barcode thing, illuminati and stuff - real imaginatve :D

dawood

[GeneChing]

Is religious fervor reserved only for . . . ah, "religions?"
Well, yes, that and a few rock bands. That's why we call it "religious" :p

dz: I was supposed to start reading the Koran last month but have been putting it off since my wife has our copy. At this point, I'm pretty unaware of Islam, save for a few peripheral readings I've done in black Islam, so any notion of their apocalypse would be interesting.

[Chang Style Novice]

If my art history serves me rightly, Islam suffers from the same kind of literal iconoclasm (image-smashing) as the Orthodox Christian Church. Both view it as sinful to create images since creation is the exclusive purview of God. That's why Muslim art relies so heavily on ornate calligraphy, for example, the scrollwork on the Taj Mahal or Al-Hambra palaces.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
If my art history serves me rightly, Islam suffers from the same kind of literal iconoclasm (image-smashing) as the Orthodox Christian Church. Both view it as sinful to create images since creation is the exclusive purview of God.

Do you mean Protestant Christian Church?

The Orthodox have a rich history of art (http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/misc_in.html).

[dezhen2001]

CSN: hmmm... for me its a difficult position as i have had to argue my OWN position as a graphic/web designer to some people myself... i think its more just an innate fear of doing something "wrong" and mass controlling of people who are generally unlearned by people who are - then it becomes tradition and imbedded in culture etc. :)

most known scholars throughout the times of Islam as well as today say that painting and photography etc is fine (as well as dancing and music etc.), as how can some pigment on paper or captured light be anything like a real person or animate object?

i think its more to do with idol-worshipping. If you remember, Islam came and many converted from pagan/idol worshipping religions so of course, for a while it was "banned", otherwise ppl would mix up their old ways with the new (as DID happen). Even remember the story of Moses and the cow statue, or Moses and the serpent statue etc. in the OT which we follow too...

really apart from some strange sects (such as Wahabbism today) most have no prob :)

But especially Mosques usually have Quranic calligraphy etc. as its seen as the word of God, so what can be better? :)

Gene: if you would like a link to a site with good translations of Quran then let me know i will PM it. Theres a lot of stuff nowadays put in brackets by people either trying to help or mislead (sectarian things) so u gotta be careful :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

Dangit, Chris, you're right. But there was an iconclastic Christian tradition before Luther, and now I'm trying to remember who's it was...

Dez - Yeah, that bit about idolatry sounds more on the money than my spin earlier.

[dezhen2001]

its interesting to me how from reading the same words, different people can get different things,

also, i think in Islam because in the middle ages it was well connected to science, islamic art tended to be more geometric, i guess like how mondrian and the bauhaus and others like them managed to take the essence of things using geometric shapes, maybe even similar to cubists in some way too...

dawood

[dezhen2001]

i mean i dont know if you have looked at Quran, but theres a lot of verses which say something like "you believed in these pieces of clay or wood as your gods - now look, they are unmoving and worthless, like the cow in the time of Moses" also "for anyone who created an idol, on judgement day they will be asked to breathe life in to it" <--- THIS tends to be the one people use as evidence to say painting ppl and animals etc is forbidden. But again, different to an idol :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

And oh yes -

Buy The Frank Book! (http://jimwoodring.com/thefrankbook.html)

Jim Woodring is my hero.

[Christopher M]

changypants - There were various iconoclastic uprisings certainly, but I don't think there was ever an "accepted" iconoclastic movement in the Orthodox or Catholic churches. The usually good Catholic Encyclopedia has an entry (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm) on it that's longer than I'm willing to read now... :p

I think perhaps the most interesting (http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/Sympdevil.html) historical aspect of idolatry and iconoclasm are how they relate to the "god-making" of the Hermetic and Chaldean texts. At least from a historical perspective, there's more going on here than readily greets our modern perspective.

[@PLUGO]

well...

all this makes me ask... is Rock & Roll a legitimate Art








or religion??? ;)


CSN:
I'm still saving up for this!!! (http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/acme/acme.html)

[Chang Style Novice]

DS - why not both?!? (I'm not buying either at the moment, and $$$ is the reason. I do WANT them both, and also this. (http://www.fantagraphics.com/classic/krazykat/krazy.html))

[@PLUGO]

I hear that dude...

there's a store out in berkeley Comic Relief that had a HUGE window display when that book came out, and said display included a 4'x5.5' blow up of that cover mounted on foam core... I wanted THAT as well... ;)

I really should ask what ever happened to it...

[Chang Style Novice]

My internet penpal Spidra Webster useda work there. She says the owner is the real-life model for "Comic Book Shop Guy" on the Simpsons.

[Chang Style Novice]

And check the stylin' new avatar!

[Shaolin-Do]

I have a pot smoking gnome.
:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I didn't think it looked like an irate beat cop.

[GeneChing]

...either that or like a pot smoking gnome. Talk about an iconclast...

After working for over a decade and a half in Rock & Roll, I think I can fairly say that it's not a legitimate art. It's an illegitimate art. At least Rock & Roll doesn't have to promote themselves by getting endorsements from the sexy comic babes. Or the Simpsons guy, or the pot smoking gnome...

Icons are often an issue in religion. There's something tricky about any representation of the divine. Perhaps that is art. The literal definition of Kung Fu has this implication. Fu implies reaching towards the divine. And Kung Fu elevates any skill to an art due to the work invested.

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I think I can fairly say that it's not a legitimate art. It's an illegitimate art.
There is something exciting about not being approved of by certain tight-assed individuals sipping brandy in their Martha's Vinyard summer homes, isn't there?


Originally posted by GeneChing
At least Rock & Roll doesn't have to promote themselves by getting endorsements from the sexy comic babes.
Uh, yeah, right. I've never seen scantily clad girls (usually moonlighting strippers) dancing on stage with the band at a concert or heavily featured in a music video...:rolleyes:

[@PLUGO]

Gene's still seeking to get a rise out of his anti-comics adgenda sounds like some-one poped him in the nose while sparring . . . The Hobit leaf must have slowed him down... :p

As for the Comics Relief guy he's sort of the Simpson's comic Guy's not-so-evil twin.

He's at leaast got a better sence of fashion what with his cowboy hat & cain & will more than once take a loss on some books just to expose a reader to something new.
He sold me the hardcover Safe Area Gorazde at half price 'cause the dust-jack had a minor rip & I had mentioned that at the time I hadn't read any Joe Sacco (http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/sacco/sacco.html)...

sure beats the Simpsons guy, though I suspect some people couldn't tell the difference...

[Chang Style Novice]

Joe Sacco rawks like yo' grandaddy's porch chair.

That is all.

[GeneChing]

Actually, I just saw Lou Reed at the Mountain Winery. Lou's Taiji Master Ren Guang-yi got us comps into the VIP box with backstage passes. Gigi, our publisher, went to lunch with them, and Lou did us the honor of introducing her and our magazine from stage. Yes, we were sipping some fine wine.

CSN: Are there any sexy comic babes? Madonna and Tori don't count - they're rock & roll babes. We have R&R babes by the buckets. Just take a look at Steve Tyler - he's a pretty ugly dude. One might even say "fugly." Now look at his daughter Liv. How do you think that happened? Steve bagged a R&R babe, and Liv's mommy wasn't the only one. Now how many babes does Stan Lee have?

DS: As for my anti-comics agenda, it's only for you really since you react so defensively. That and it's good ttt fodder for this thread. Actually, you know I enjoy a good comic now and again. But I'm wondering when you're going to look in the mirror and see the Simpson's comic guy... or the pot smoking gnome...

[@PLUGO]

Gene must be getting old, he's begining to repeat himself...

Now, why on earth are you concerned with what I see in the Mirror, Gene?

And what does THAT have to do with comics?

It seems you've started to troll after a reaction with these claims of my "defensiveness." Keep going... so long as we're talking about comics <tim Curry Voice> This THRED is MIIIIINE!!! Bwa HAHAHAHAHAH!!</Tim Curry Voice>

Should I make claims on your Offensiveness?

Would that make you more or less so?

my questions are racking up dude

Now as for Stan Lee & Babes...
check it.. (http://www.thenewtnn.com/shows/animation/stripperella/) ;)

[David Jamieson]

pot smoking gnome?

that would be my mom. :mad:

heh heh

do you guys throw stuff over the cubicle walls at each other?
Like those coconut encrusted wheat gluten balls from the chinese bakery? those are wicked projectiles of sweetness.

on the other hand, you are only moments away from a warehouse full of weaponry. Get the video camera!

cheers

[@PLUGO]

You should see the number of swors Gene keeps by his desk... I suppose it helps him cope with the chaos as well as the door to door sales-peeps that he must face.

There are no cubicles in our office. It's a huge room where EVERYTHING gets done. Each desk is piled high with computer gear and . . . er, works in progress. Considering the height of some of these piles they might as well be cubicles. :eek:

I however am armed with Religious Fervor and a nonsencical whit . . . However, what with the Comics (http://comicsone.com/) that are piling up, I could probably deliver a MEEEEEAN paper cut... :p

[GeneChing]

DS: "Man, you come straight outta a comic book..."

In answer to your new questions (since I'm still not clear on your old ones):

Now, why on earth are you concerned with what I see in the Mirror, Gene?
I'm concerned about what you see in the mirror because it doesn't seem to jive with what others see outside of the comic world. That may be you're undoing, and that I am serious about.

And what does THAT have to do with comics?
The comic guys in the Simpsons has everything to do with comics. If you can't see that, you best reflect on my first point.
Should I make claims on your Offensiveness?
Yes. Absolutely.
Would that make you more or less so?
More so. Obviously.

Keep in mind I've not really objected to comics. Just comic readers over defensiveness.

And I do hate paper cuts. :eek:

KL: I do keep a lot of weapons around - that's a fair cop. It's been my habit since, well, the late 80's when I went into swordmaking. All of my fellow swordmakers kept weapons too, and they were all swordsmen. We'd have the occasional melee to blow of steam, so you had to be with in two steps of a weapon at any given time. I'm totally serious about this. It made me a bit paranoid. My next job at WLE, well, I was head instructor there and my strength has always been weapons, so I wasn't so challenged. Here, nobody comes at me with weapons. I miss it. One of my old training mates hired on at www.MartialArtsMart.com, but he's all the way on the other office and isn't into the Kato ninja-attacking thing, so my skills are dropping. Besides he fell into the world of taoist sexual qigong, although he has yet to start with Master Tu (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/prjt001.html) and, well, the notion of a ninja attack from him now is out of the question.

[chen zhen]

That Tu-dude is just crazy! :eek: I read that article..:p

[@PLUGO]

I'm concerned about what you see in the mirror because it doesn't seem to jive with what others see outside of the comic world. That may be you're undoing, and that I am serious about.

you will have to elaborate on this if you want me to take it seriously . . . ;)
I looked in the mirror this morning and found that I am neither Yellow nor do I have 3 fingers 7 a thumb...

so... what is this place called The comic world?
I'd love to vacation there... :p



Keep in mind I've not really objected to comics. Just comic readers over defensiveness.

Again I'll come back to my point on religious fervor... What if this "defensivesness" you claim I demonstrate, was in "defence" of a particular religion...?
Would you be so ardent in your questioning?

Somehow I don't think so . . .

I haven't seen you question anyone's religious beliefs and the defence there of, on this thread. Why have you chosen to single out the "fervor" associated with a particular art form?

You've brought up the Simpsons' Comic Guy yet you haven't mentioned Ned Flanders, why is that? :rolleyes:

As for Pot smoking gnomes:
maybe if in 50 years I loose about 2 feet in height . . .

[MasterKiller]

so... what is this place called The comic world?
It's not very far away, but usually hard to find,
in a run-down strip mall, or a building with no signs.
Posters cover the windows, and sunlight is kept out
so non-believers won't dare step foot in their house.

Pretentions abound as they marvel and gaze
at little paper books drawn for boys 1/2 their age.
Where men huddle and speak whispers concerning
the latest stories that fuel their unfullfilled yearnings

Where women are drawn with triple D bosoms,
and men have huge muscles and no bald spots to cover.
And that nerdy computer d0rk that no girl would be seen with
is really the cool guy (in disguise) she's really in love with.

For in the comic world, skinny d0rks are not d0rks,
They are secretly strong, smart, and look good in shorts.
It's the perfect place for 30-year-old men to frequent
to forget about being old, bald, lonely and creepy.

If you want to be cool, and strong, and smart
but lack drive, determination, muslces, or heart
Then the Comic World can provide all these things
and you won't have to sweat or lift any weights.

So shout to the rooftops the universal cry
of all comic-book geeks to justify your life.
"Comics are Art, and we're special for reading them!"
and "Comic Book Shops are really museums!"

[Chang Style Novice]

That's pretty good MK - is it an original?

[MasterKiller]

Yep. Composed 7/8/03, by yours truely.

I'm hoping Gene will toss a Got Qi shirt (or girl) my way for getting his back ;)

[@PLUGO]

Nice one...

I keep hearing it by the voice for the grinch who stole christmass...

[Chang Style Novice]

I really only get defensive about comics, btw, when terrible examples are held up as being typical of the medium. Okay, sure, probably they ARE typical of what's popular in the medium. But they aren't typical of what's most respected in the medium.

See - Love and Rockets, Palestine, etc.

[GeneChing]

DS questions:

so... what is this place called The comic world?
MK got that one for me. Thanks MK. I only give out 'got qi' shirts to girls on the forum, but PM me your address and I'll see if I can toss you a keychain or something. ;)

What if this "defensivesness" you claim I demonstrate, was in "defence" of a particular religion...?
Religious defense is expected because a spiritual path is so personal. Are comics your spiritual path? Is Superman your Jesus? Are you sure that's healthy? (Hint: theres' a good set-up here if you know gnosticism/apocrypha particulary the tales of Jesus as a baby.)

Would you be so ardent in your questioning?
Probably not. Even less if it wasn't you. ;)

Why have you chosen to single out the "fervor" associated with a particular art form?
OK, I'll make a sweeping generalization here that you may or may not accept, but it's for the sake of argument, just to move this dialog forward. There's a fantasy element in the majority of comics - the whole superhero concept - that is particularly delusional. To take it to a spiritual level, we Buddhists work to remove delusions. Now, I'll qualify this by saying I'm not talking about stuff like Maus or the more 'artsy' publications. I'm just speaking in terms of the general stereotype of comics - what we're seeing in the movies today. On the whole, the plotlines are painfully transparent, adolescent wishes for significance, delusions that ensnare young minds and keep them infantile. *whew! like that one?:D * Does that mean Buddhists will activaly campaign against comics? Quite the opposite. (http://www.powells.com/search/DTSearch/search?partner_id=25106;cgi=search%2Fsearch%2F;sea rchtype=kw;searchfor=Salajan%20Zen%20Comics&kbdi=yes&partner_id=25106&cgi=search/search/&searchtype=kw&searchfor=Salajan%20Zen%20Comics)

You've brought up the Simpsons' Comic Guy yet you haven't mentioned Ned Flanders, why is that?
I didn't find him particularly relevant to this conversation. Do you? I didn't bring up the bartender either, for that matter...

Wasn't the Grinch that Stole Christmas voiced by Boris Karloff?

CSN - I guess that pertains to my Archie posts. I admit, it was a cheap shot, but DS defended Archie as art a while back, so what can you say?

[@PLUGO]

DS defended Archie as art a while back
ahhh you missed that one...

I stated Archie as being successful for the industry, particularly in terms of the success of Archie Comics the publishing company that produces more than just Archie.

This returns to the crux of my point. You continue to make the sweeping statements that not only confuse the comic-book industry with the comics form, but also associate one genre, the Superhero, with comics as a whole; relegating any non-superhero work as 'artsy.'

This is where I think you're mistaken. Of course where it anyone else, I would've grown board with this chat ages ago... but straight faces and paper cuts and all that.

So should we talk about Superheroes?

Adolecent power fantisies?

Wish fullfilment?

Or weither Superman or Jesus make a better savior?

More answers:

Are comics your spiritual path?
I'd sooner claim "art' as a spiritual path.

Is Superman your Jesus?
Not really, though, it reminds me of a comic I read where a young boy's belief in superman saving him actually save the world. So who's your Jesus?

Are you sure that's healthy?
This supposed that I answered YES to your previous question. But I'll tell you that I don't remotely find the concept of "the Martyr" at all healthy... personally or culturally.




I didn't find him (Ned Flanders) particularly relevant to this conversation.Do you?
Only in so much as there was an ongoing discourse on christianity and evangelism a few pages back and old NED FLANDERS (http://www.thesimpsons.com/bios/bios_townspeople_ned.html) would make about as accurate a characterization of christians as COMIC BOOK GUY (http://www.snpp.com/guides/cbg.file.html) would make of comic book reader.


Probably not. Even less if it wasn't you.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwww how adorable... :p

Question:
How many pages does a Zen comic have?

Answer:
NONE!!!

[Chang Style Novice]

Gene, since you DO make the distinction between form (comics)and content (superhero silliness), I ask that you use language that reflects this understanding so we may avoid future confusion.

BTW - art is a value neutral term as far as I'm concerned.:D

[norther practitioner]

Question:How many pages does a Zen comic have?


Infinite... the world is your comic.