Fighting

[Adam R]

How many of you on this forum actually fight on a regular basis?

P.S. Not including that controlled game called 'Chi Sao'.

[Fresh]

Same troll, different day. :p

[Grabula]

fresh - typical response from a wing chun guy ;)

[Atleastimnotyou]

i think there is something wrong with a person that goes around and gets into fights everyday. I think those people tend to get removed from society though.

[Grabula]

I think what he is refering to is a more open format for sparring. Chi Sau is a controlled form of sparring designed to help develop sensitivity and other wing chun attributes. It's parameters are sometimes tight enough to barely resemble fighting.

[Alpha Dog]

Used to train in a sparring style daily (once upon a time). It did absolutely nothing to improve my WC. In fact, it was detrimental.

[Grabula]

In fact, it was detrimental


How so?

[Alpha Dog]

The focus of the sparring was on making hits, not achieving control -- of myself or of my opponent. If I "won," it was because my opponent lacked skill; and when I lost, it was because I lacked skill. This went on for months. In the end, was my stance good? No. Did I understand the principles of Wing Chun better? No. I knew how to go for the head and how to duck. Practical, but not Wing Chun.

So sparring in my mind is just an animated expression of lack of talent.

[Grabula]

So you don't believe that sparring can help you to set the context of your wingchun to say a fight on the street? Or maybe fighting an opponent that does not know wing chun?

[sel]

i think sparring can be useful for reflex training. but in a "fighting" context it gives you a false sense of security. i agree with alpha dog that it's not as beneficial as some people think. mostly it's a good way to practice and ingrain bad habits.

[WCis4me]

Grabula wrote:

So you don't believe that sparring can help you to set the context of your wingchun to say a fight on the street? Or maybe fighting an opponent that does not know wing chun?
I agree that sparring is important to handle combative situations outside of a wc 'gathering'. I think it keeps you on your toes as to handle your WC in 'real life' situations.
However, I also agree that focusing on sparring in your daily training of WC has the potential to take away from the focus of learning the 'tools' that will help you in those 'real life' situations.

I think there should be a balance to a degree......for example sparring 2-3 times a week. WC everyday to some degreee, and intensely 3-5 times a week.
Of course all of this (time spent training, focus of training, intensity of training, etc) depends on how, what, why you are training in WC.
Just my thoughts on the subject,
Vicky

[Grabula]

Vicky, I basically agree with what you say. I only do an open type sparring once a week or so since the basic wing chun skills are still the most important. I do feel however that it has enhanced my performance a bit.

[KingMonkey]

My humble opinion on sparring is that, as part of a broader training programme it is very important.
You can break a potential fight with an opponent into two phases,

1) making first contact
2) what happens after this

You can be the greatest exponent of chi-sao the world has ever seen but if your first contact with an opponent is his fist hitting your chin/throat then its not going to do you any good.

Sparring is very important for reading how people move and learning to pick up on visual cues that pre-empt an attack.

[Alpha Dog]

When, then, would be an appropriate point in one's training to begin sparring? First year? Third?

[KingMonkey]

Again, only my humble opinion but I believe as soon as the student has mastered the basic mechanics of what the hands and feet should be doing in response to various attacks in the form of set drills they need to start practising these techniques in two contexts.

1) Against someone attacking them with something approaching realistic force.
2) Without knowing in advance what the attack will be.

Sparring can offer both of these things but obviously common sense needs to be applied. The intensity of the spar needs to be controlled and gradually increased in line with the students ability to cope.

The exact time though will depend on the student. Also I would add that my opinions on this are shaped by my own goals which are to use wing chun for realistic self defence/fighting.

I simply dont believe that I can be confident in dealing with an aggressive resisting opponent in reality if I havent trained against an aggressive resisting opponent.

[fa_jing]

Believe it or not, good sparring is NOT about scoring points, NOT about beating each other up, and NOT full intensity. Full intensity is alright but once in a blue moon.

That said, finding a partner willing to train in this manner is difficult. Despite our Sifu yelling at us, I and my junior always went at it way too hard, got emotional, etc.

My sifu put it nicely - you should be able to vary the intensity from one to 10.

The thing is, usually it's someone who already has many years of experience, and has already made the mistakes of sparring the wrong way, who has competed already and doesn't feel that they have something to prove, that is willing to spar in a constructive manner.

[Grabula]

fa_jing makes a good point, "good" sparring is not about scoring points or hitting each other necessarily so much as learning how to hit each other.

[Alpha Dog]

Well that is what is good about good things -- they are good.

I have no interest in sparring, good or bad.

[InjuryProne]

AlphaDog:

do you feel that it is possible to learn to fight without sparring? If so, how does one develop the timing and distancing?

[Alpha Dog]

Yep.

One way is the dummy (please no Bruce Lee quotes about it not hitting back -- I just ate and will literally hurl).

Another way is via drills which involve coordination of legs, hands, and body positioning. Your partner can react or not, depending on what you're training. If this doesn't make sense it's because it's hard to describe in words. Ask your Sifu to show you!

[Grabula]

I believe the drills are good, definitely a must but they tend to setup a rhythm. "Free" or open sparring can also imitate the erratic and off beat rhythms that occur in non training scenarios.

[Alpha Dog]

Not all drills are like that.

[InjuryProne]

Alpha Dog:

have you found success in using your method of "not sparring" when you actually do spar? I know it sounds funy but i guess im asking if you ever "test" your training methods some way?

[Grabula]

Alpha Dog, I would even go further and say almost all drills should not be like that.

[Alpha Dog]

It's kinda wrong to test one's commitment to not sparring by sparring! It's like checking your progress in quitting smoking by lighting up.

Why should I test what I know with sparring, unless I have doubts about Wing Chun'e efficacy? And if I have doubts about its efficacy, why am I bothering to train in it?

I test myself all the time, but not by sparring.

[Grabula]

Why should I test what I know with sparring, unless I have doubts about Wing Chun'e efficacy?

I think that is fallacy Alpha Dog, let me see if I can explain why I feel this way. To know something works doesn't mean you know it works for you, or you can make it work. My mother knows a computer works, but she can't necessarily make it work like I can make it work. Not sparring because you believe it works I guess relies a little too much on faith for me. At some point any skill has to be challenged for you to know it works. My belief is that while drills and chi sau can be challenging, there are other levels of challenges as well. Sparring, fighting are the two most prominent.

[Alpha Dog]

I already know it doesn't work for me perfectly, yet, which is why I feel it's better to spend more time working on WC and less time verifying what I already know.

You're entitled to your opinion -- but as for me, I started learning WC the day I stopped sparring.

[Grabula]

hard to understand why you started learning WC the day you stopped sparring. Will you stop doing WC if the day comes you have to fight?

It seems to me if you can't do it sparring how can you expect to do it fighting?

[Alpha Dog]

That is a good question.

[kj]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
I test myself all the time, but not by sparring.

... and ...



I already know it doesn't work for me perfectly, yet, which is why I feel it's better to spend more time working on WC and less time verifying what I already know.

And as opposed to ingraining imperfect habits?

Perfectly put.

Regards,
- kj

[Grabula]

I find it odd that wing chun people tend to claim that sparring reinforces bad habits. I also find it odd that wing chun people can be so stubborn about different methods of training. I don't find it odd that most wing chun people can't fight ;) but they have pretty forms and nice structure and man can they drill and drill and drill.

[Alpha Dog]

How many WC people have you fought? Just curious.

[KingMonkey]

How many non WC is more pertinent as it's a much more likely scenario and they wont be following familiar lines of attack.

[Alpha Dog]

Whichever is fine with me. At any rate I'm certain Grabula won't be able to distinguish one from another.

But he seems to have run off to watch Bruce Lee movies.

[kj]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
How many non WC is more pertinent as it's a much more likely scenario and they wont be following familiar lines of attack.

Agreed. Working with other stylists is very valuable experience indeed.

It still isn't necessary to have routine and bloodthirsty death battles in order to identify your weaknesses and appreciate which areas are most direly in need of work. Unless one enjoys bloodthirsty death battles for their own sake.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grabula]

It still isn't necessary to have routine and bloodthirsty death battles in order to identify your weaknesses and appreciate which areas are most direly in need of work.

Of course not, drilling and training can help you do this, but you can't truly know a thing unless you put it to the test. Is it necessary? Probably not, but if it becomes so, then what? Do you choose to push your training as far as you can or do you choose to push only some of it a little of the way and hope for the best?
I'm not claiming it's necesary to fight by any means. If you choose not to fight/spar that's your own choice but do not claim to know what is and isn't necessary if you haven't gone and come back.

It seems dogs have no hips as well ;)

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Grabula
If you choose not to fight/spar that's your own choice but do not claim to know what is and isn't necessary if you haven't gone and come back.

LMAO -- who are you talking to now? Yourself?

[Grabula]

no one in particular, but I have noticed an odd habit of "understanding" something without experiencing it, something I find a bit odd and perplexing.

[Alpha Dog]

So all that I wrote about spending 6 months sparring adds up in your mind to never having tried it huh? Okay. I hope you're wearing headgear at your sparring matches.

[Kuen]

Originally posted by Adam R
How many of you on this forum actually fight on a regular basis?

P.S. Not including that controlled game called 'Chi Sao'.

I spar a couple of times a week under the strict supervision of my Sifu. I've been in 1 fight in 2 years and it ended in one punch. Where I live "fighting" on a regular basis is a good way to get you rear end shot off since it is legal to carry concealed handguns here.

[Grabula]

So all that I wrote about spending 6 months sparring adds up in your mind to never having tried it huh?

Not exactly what I meant, as I said I was talking to no one in particular. If you tried it and it didn't work for you then I commend your ability to atleast attempt it.

[sticky fingers]

you started this thread, can you share your experiences and opinions on this?

p.s did you ever find the 'hidden Dragon'?

[anerlich]

How many of you on this forum actually fight on a regular basis?

If you are talking sparring, rolling or competition, then yes.

If you are talking fighting in the street, challenge matches, death matches, kumite and the like, remember that only idiots admit to (or claim, or boast about) illegal activity on public forums, and only idiots would expect other people to do so.

[yuanfen]

Anerlich sez:

If you are talking fighting in the street, challenge matches, death matches, kumite and the like, remember that only idiots admit to illegal activity on public forums, and only idiots would expect other people to do so.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Point well made.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by kj
It still isn't necessary to have routine and bloodthirsty death battles in order to identify your weaknesses and appreciate which areas are most direly in need of work. Unless one enjoys bloodthirsty death battles for their own sake.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
KJ,

Not everyone is as bloodthirsty and ruthless as you are reputed to be. :p However, for those of us who enjoy the occasional death match, the question is what wine goes with that? :p

I enjoy a nice Merlot after while soaking in the hot tub. :D

Regards,

[mun hung]

I feel sparring is a very necessary level of training. It is not for the beginner. And it should definitely not be done the way I've seen it at local kung fu tourneys where most Wing Chun, Mantis, Choy Lay Fut, Hung Kuen, etc. practitioners all just start bouncing around doing TKD punching and kicking as soon as they put on some gloves. LOL.

"Good sparring" using your art (regardless of style) is a practice in unpredictable application against real force. It will not be perfect and pretty all the time just as your fighting will not be perfect on the street. It is not a practice of sloppiness and bad habits unless you don't improve in it. You don't get bad habits from trying to effectively apply your kung fu against another person thru sparring - you can only pick up good habits from this. Problem is - people don't know "how to" apply their kung fu in sparring and therefore start jumping around doing mandatory punch and kick routines straight out of "Tai Bo" tapes. That is not sparring with your art - it is kickboxing. Which of course will get you nowhere and in this case "will" develop bad habits. Try applying your kung fu.

And "good sparring" IS about controlling the opponent. It means hitting the opponent at will while not getting hit yourself.

I try to spar on a regular, and against others stylist when the opportunity is there. And I can say that I've actually applied things on the street that I've learned thru sparring. A simple strategy worked for me. If you've ever had to actually square off against someone, you'll find it can be pretty similar - except there are no gloves and no second round.

IMHO, "sparring" has got a bad rap due to all the people who do a generic TKD version of it.

My apologies if the wind is long tonite.