Absorbing the mojo

[WanderingMonk]

Hi,

I was reading Roger Ebert's review of the "Matrix reloaded" and something he wrote struck me as interesting.

"because to the white teenagers who are the primary audience for this movie, African-Americans embody a cool, a cachet, an authenticy. Morpheus is the power center of the movie, and Neo's role is essentially to study under him and absorb his mojo."

So, do you think learning Asian MA as a way of absorbing Asian's mojo? And what make white teenager feel that they need to find something outside of their western tradition? I don't know the answer, I just thought it was interesting.

The rest of the world is trying to conform to Western culture, science, wearing westernize clothings, western standard of beauty (thin, etc, etc) has become internationalize, etc. Learning the western "mojo".

Yet, especially in white teenager (at least to my untrained eyes), there seem to be a need to "run the other way". Adopting other cultures to become cool.

Do people generally just become bore with their own tradition and feel a need to adopt someone else's tradition to feel "cool"?

what's your thought?

wm

[Shaolin-Do]

"Adopting other cultures to become cool"
Think you nailed it right there dude.

[MasterKiller]

Yet, especially in white teenager (at least to my untrained eyes), there seem to be a need to "run the other way". Adopting other cultures to become cool.

Part of the problem stems from the hegomony of white American culture. We're a smorgasborg of races and creeds, and don't really have a connection to any culture beyond our grand-parent's generation. I'm from Scottish ancestry, but also have some Irish and German. Most white kids are even more mixed. So which do you identify with? I think we see something that looks cool, looks like it has some depth and meaning, and we latch on to it.

I think the other part stems from 'white guilt', in that the white American male is constantly demonized in the media. Extreme femisist groups banter "testerone poisoning" and extereme racial organizations use slavery and poverty as evidence of the white man's fear of diversity. Notice I said extreme here.

So, in part, white's reject that part of themselves because they are made to feel guilty about themselves.

So, if everyone hates who you are, and you really aren't that attached to it anyway, you will probably have no issues with looking elsewhere for cultural identification.

Of course, I'm being very general here.

[ZIM]

I can't say that its defintely an effort to become 'cool'. Speaking for myself, I did explore a lot of Eastern philosophy in my teens and twenties, but it was more a 'search for self' than anything else. You know...having an 'identity' is so dam'd important at that age...

I tend to think that it's because there's a sense that answers are more readily available in those traditions than in mainstream Western culture [which tends to devalue that search to begin with, then offer prepackaged solutions if you persist].

Eventually, I came to a point where I thought to myself, 'hey, wake up- you're not Chinese' and settled out a lot of it. FWLIW, when I stopped looking, it paid off. ;)

So, in sum, its not necessarily boredom thats at play here, nor 'coolness', but an earnest search. Our sciences address the same questions- it just seems that they take so much time to learn and master that nobody can see it.


WRT MK's observations- 'white guilt' is a problem, sure. But if you're white, you still have to solve for it. Embracing a different tradition is just hiding...

ON edit: There is another phenom. The "teen witch/goth girl" one. Let me relate it to this: in high school, some of the less-popular girls go on to become/embrace 'neopaganism' or goth culture [NOT necessarily the same thing] in order to develop a kind of superiority over the other girls, sometimes obtained by fear or 'prescence', 'attitude' etc. The MAs in general and Eastern cultural practices may obtain the same result for less-popular males in that environment. So here i can see what your'e saying about the 'cool' thing.

[Kuen]

I think many young people find Western values to be empty. A society based on consumerism is a bit dehumanizing and I think kids often think different is better when in fact different is just different.


ON edit: There is another phenom. The "teen witch/goth girl" one. Let me relate it to this: in high school, some of the less-popular girls go on to become/embrace 'neopaganism' or goth culture [NOT necessarily the same thing] in order to develop a kind of superiority over the other girls, sometimes obtained by fear or 'prescence', 'attitude' etc.

That's a pretty broad brush you paint with. I think you'll find most non-conformist simply feel alienated and/or are displeased with the meaningless existence of your average American. Also, since this phenom (as you say) has been occuring for at least 30 years most of the "teen witches/goth girls" go on to be adult witches and Neopagans. Both of which are just as valid a path to follow as any other comfort-myth system like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. Don't comfuse the search for a path with the adolesent male search for power.

[MasterKiller]

Uh oh....I think ZIM made Kuen drop his white face powder onto his Cure record collection with that last remark. Hope it didn't ruin your Anne Rice novels.

[ZIM]

Uh oh....I think ZIM made Kuen drop his white face powder onto his Cure record collection with that last remark. Hope it didn't ruin your Anne Rice novels Heh- that was me, at one point in my life...! :eek:

Naw, I'm not trying to lambaste the whole neo-pagan thing, don't get me wrong [tho it was a broad brush, yes]. Here look:
Don't comfuse the search for a path with the adolesent male search for power. question: do you think that females have any less desire for power? do you think that the male search for power is any less a search for a path? Can we agree that not all stay within the bounds of whatever thing they decide to experiment with in their youth? If so, can we say that -for some!- it is because the experiment has outlived its usefulness?

[Shaolin-Do]

The "teen witch/goth girl" one.
dude....
That sh!t is going rampant here.
I used to teach music to elementary schoolers, and when I taught them they were all in little dresses, ect, looking like good little children. Now, I see these same litte kids I used to teach walking around the neighborhood, all of them in baggy ass pants, baggy ass shirts, black make up, black lipstick, black nailpolish.... and im like wtf?
theres enough teenage angst to make staind and korn go quad platinum.

[MasterKiller]

Not to mention all the Avril Lavign girls I see, too.

[Shaolin-Do]

I want to laugh, but I cant seem to remember to avril lavign is.
:(
If I did tho, Im sure it would be funny.
;)

[MasterKiller]

Apparently, you're not a Sk8er boi, who said 'see ya later' boy, because she's not good enough for you. Or else you'd be a big star, slammin' on your guitar, showing pretty face just what your worth!

[Shaolin-Do]

ah.
bahahhahaa
I make fun of all the kiddies who write and say sk8er, cause I used to be a little skater f*ck myself.

[Shaolin-Do]

avril lavign would get the d*ck.

[MasterKiller]

As did I. *sigh*

I used to have a bumper sticker on my car when i was 16 that said " SKATEBOARDING IS NOT A CRIME.

I still have my Classic Caballero deck, with Independent Trucks, and Slimeball wheels. I scoot around on it when I walk the dog, but I can barely Ollie anymore.

[Kuen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Uh oh....I think ZIM made Kuen drop his white face powder onto his Cure record collection with that last remark. Hope it didn't ruin your Anne Rice novels.

You should stop thinking. You're not good at it. ;) I also think you may be about 20 years out of date with those anologies. Robert Smith's an old man and Anne Rice is a hack writer. Plus, I absolutely DETEST anything to do with vampires at this point.


question: do you think that females have any less desire for power? do you think that the male search for power is any less a search for a path? Can we agree that not all stay within the bounds of whatever thing they decide to experiment with in their youth? If so, can we say that -for some!- it is because the experiment has outlived its usefulness?

Well, I am speaking from my experience as a writer. As audiences adolesent males tend to gravitate to "power fantasies" as young boys are constantly seeking power over others in the herd and your average geek often feels powerless. Thus the genre of "superheroes" and the like. Young girls are often more concerned with status then power which is why young female literature arte things like Sweet Valley High & the Babysitters Club. These female types of literature are primarily about relationships within the herd.

Now, like yours these are somewhat generalizations but you see my point.




The "teen witch/goth girl" one.
dude....
That sh!t is going rampant here.
I used to teach music to elementary schoolers, and when I taught them they were all in little dresses, ect, looking like good little children. Now, I see these same litte kids I used to teach walking around the neighborhood, all of them in baggy ass pants, baggy ass shirts, black make up, black lipstick, black nailpolish.... and im like wtf?
theres enough teenage angst to make staind and korn go quad platinum.


I believe those are called Rednecks not goths. The only people who call themselves "goth" and listen to Korn and Marilyn Manson are not Goths, just more M-TV rejects. Korn and Manson are parts of the very thing actual goths reject in this society. Superficial and devoid of any deeper characteristics.


As for Paganism--well, if you are white and/or of European descent that IS your native religion and culture. Christianity was culture adopted from the Jews by the Romans who spread it to the ancestors of modern Europe while wiping out the real traditions of almost all the European cultures. Many Catholic saints in my family's native Ireland are just reinventions of "pagan" gods. Brigid for example.

[MasterKiller]

You should stop thinking. You're not good at it. I also think you may be about 20 years out of date with those anologies. Robert Smith's an old man and Anne Rice is a hack writer. Plus, I absolutely DETEST anything to do with vampires at this point

20 years too old? Robert Smith was at the height of his Goth-girl fame when I was 18, about 12 years ago. I'm not too far removed from the current Goth incarnations. We used to refer to Cure fans as Cure-babies and Preppy-Punks, because it always seemed to be chicks listening to him while wearing their Morissey T-shirts.

My crowd was more into Front 242, Nietzer Ebb, Front-Line Assembly, etc...More of an Industrial flavor.

Besides, any real Goth has a few Cure albums, and maybe even a couple of SMITHS albums, lying around. If I can admit I still have all my Siouxsie and the Banshees tapes, you can at least fess up about you secret love for the Cure. ;)

[Kuen]

The Cure was POPULAR 12 years ago, but they peaked in the mid 80's and became pop music shortly afterwards. I have always hated Morrisey but I did enjoy Siouxsie back when they released their 2nd album around 1980 and I have a few of her albums on vinyl. The Cure lost it after 1983's "Faith", it was good kiddie music but didn't really suit me as a teenager. I don't care much for "gothy" type music. I was raised on the glourious sounds of the Dead Kennedy's, Exploited, Circle Jerks, Black Flag, Disgust, Rudimentary Peni, Slapshot, Minor Threat, etc.

That's REAL music, m'man!

[Shaolin-Do]

"I believe those are called Rednecks not goths. "
lol
no no my friend, we have rednecks here, and those are most definately NOT rednecks. they are depressed pubecents, nothing more.
I like the cure :)
Listen to tool, deftones, slipknot, mudvayne, pearl jam, zepplin.... But mostly hip hop. (roots, common, talib kweli, mos def, zion eye, the grouch, ill bill and necro... ect.... )

[MasterKiller]

Kuen,

You ever listen to JFA (jodie foster's army)?

[Kuen]

As a matter of fact yes I have. I have an (the?) album of theirs though I haven't listened to it in a long, long time. I always got a kick out of the name.

Reagan Youth was a good band of that era, too.

[ZIM]

Oh, the shame...yes, still have the Cure, Smiths, Siouxie, etc. laying around...all that Mancusian stuff... and the ripped up tshirts...but we ARE going back at least 12 years..

Kuen-
I get what you're saying about the generalizations,etc. [BTW- you're an author? :cool: Got a website, or linkage?] One point of argument: While the paganist enterprise attempts to recreate the Old Faith, I really feel that they do a bad job of it, and the modern interpretation doesn't adhere well to its founding principles, if you use strict logic with it.

A case in point: many neo-pagans believe that they are following an ancient tradition of fertility cults- but it is in name only. If they did, they wouldn't support abortion, which [historically] was more the province of so-called 'black' magic. Note please that I'm seeing a difference between 'official' cults of the past versus the 'rural' folk religions, here. There are other points of departure, as well.

The ppl involved can certainly follow their hearts, I've no truck with that. I'm simply noting a divergence of interpretation [fully knowing that mine is peculiar to myself].

[Shuul Vis]

I feel like my culture is empty. So i sought to fill it elsewhere. Maybe one day ill return to it with a different perspective. But for now, im not really interested in learning the profundity of baseball and rednecks. Nor am i interested in walking the ancient path of "the playa".

[Leimeng]

~ In the quest to be a non-conformist kids try to dress up just like all their friends and follow the so called heros of pop culture. So what happens in reality is that the kid acts just like their parents' "keeping up with the jones" in their attemp to me more of a non-comformist than their friends. Of course, if their friends did not think that black lipstick, glued hair, and lousy music was not cool, how many of them would think the same?
~ It is a good think for kids to "find themselves" more or less. But when it involves following around pathetic little heros who are making money off the kids naivity, I want to step in and shake them with much vigor and tell them to get a clue.
~ If someone wants to be really unique, then work hard at becoming the very best you can become in your chosen fields of endeavour.
~ If the Cure or Manson are playing on the radio fifty years from now and considered as high quality classic musicians, then I might be impressed.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[Kuen]

One point of argument: While the paganist enterprise attempts to recreate the Old Faith, I really feel that they do a bad job of it, and the modern interpretation doesn't adhere well to its founding principles, if you use strict logic with it.

I agree. One point of profound irritation I have with Neo Paganism is the b@stardization of Celtic culture. Their knowledge of Celts seems to come primarily from fantasy novels and skewed accounts from the ancient Romans. One can only hope that as those who are serious about Neo Paganism mature they will begin to apply a more historically accurate approach to their practices. Of course then there are the Wiccans whose ancient history goes back to the mid 20th century & whose practices are really nothing more than a thrown together mix of western traditions and New Age-ism. Although, nothing says a path has to be old or traditional. All the great religions were new and unaccepted in their early days, too.

[ZIM]

Whew! For awhile there, I'd thot I'd p!ssed you off to no end. ;)


Although, nothing says a path has to be old or traditional. All the great religions were new and unaccepted in their early days, too. Good point. Sometimes ppl are so charged with coming up with a new way that they overlook or dismiss what was valuable before. Opposition is not necessarily a platform towards truth, after all. As you mentioned, the Catholic Church subverted a lot of ancient practices for their own purposes- so combing through that to reclaim the old ways seems called for. Only caveat is this: the Catholics tended to take the 'town' religions, not the 'rural' [relative terms in those days]. A clear separation can go a long way towards better scholarship, IMHO. Then you choose. :)

on edit:
After re-reading this, it occurs to me that I may be sounding 'imperious' or something like that. Such is not my intention- I'm more interested in finding good historical material like I'm describing here, than in 'forcing' another to accept my views. If you have any suggestions for authors, that'd be appreciated. Thanx :)