what is more powerful?

[sel]

what do you think is a more powerful strike and why?

a) palmstrike
b) punch

[WCis4me]

Hi sel,
We really need to stop meeting like this, people are going to talk;)
On a more serious note. I am not sure I can really give my response to your question in the way that you are requesting.
I think both strikes have a lot of merit, usefullness, and power in different situations. To choose just one seems impossible for me.
While a good palm strike or punch placed and timed right can be the end of a fight, I am of the mindset that combination (punch, palm strike, punch etc, each strike in motion before previous one is completed) would be more effective, particularily those who are very skilled at blocking techniques.
That makes a whole lot of sense to me. As I said, I can't say which is more powerful as they both can be equally as powerful in very different situations, hence the reasoning for the combo preference......lol why settle on one when you can have it all.
Just my thoughts on it,
Vicky

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by sel
what do you think is a more powerful strike and why?

a) palmstrike
b) punch


I think a palmstrike is more powerful. Why is it such a powerful blow? Because it utilises one of the body’s hardest natural points. The thick mass of bone at the base of the palm and the wrist junction doesn’t need any conditioning prior to use the way the fist does. Also the palm is more relaxed than the fist and there is no need to tighten it like the fist, like some people do, in the last few inches before impact.

Also surface area of the palm is greater than knuckles and palm aligment with forearm is more natural than fist alignment. Try making a tight fist. It is easy to wobble it up and down if you apply pressure on it. With your palm open however it is very hard to wobble. Therefore power from the palm is direct and is not lost in any joint (eg wrist).

Palm strike is known to cause internal damage...power travels deeper than punch...

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Intersting question?

I think the answer is very simple but I will ask a question before giving my thoughts!


What is the difference between the Yat Jee Chung Choi and the Pin (Wang) Jeung?


Looking forward to some thoughts!


Regards,

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


Intersting question?

I think the answer is very simple but I will ask a question before giving my thoughts!


What is the difference between the Yat Jee Chung Choi and the Pin (Wang) Jeung?


Looking forward to some thoughts!


Regards,

Yat Jee Chung Choi is the first fist strike in SLT section 1 starting from Sau keun. Wang Jeung is the upward palm strike that occurs in section 3 of SLT after Ngoi jut sau

[ntc]

Think about the WC proverb: "yee yau tsai gong"...... "use soft to subdue hard".

The palm strike (soft strike) is effective against hard surfaces/targets (eg, skull) and will cause a more internal injury. The family of punches (hard strike) is effective against soft surfaces/targets (softer parts of the body) and the injuries tend to be more superficial. Hence, both are effective depending on how they are used.

[Jim Roselando]

Marcelino31,



I am not asking where it is located in the forms of the art. I am basically asking what is the difference between them in structural alignment?

If you know the answer to that then I believe you know the answer to the original question being asked!


;)


Sorry for the answerring questions with questions but I want to see what others think of before giving my belief!

Looking forward to some thoughts!


Regards,

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by ntc
Think about the WC proverb: "yee yau tsai gong"...... "use soft to subdue hard"...The palm strike (soft strike) is effective against hard surfaces/targets (eg, skull) and will cause a more internal injury. .

Sorta like beating someone with a bag of oranges!

[ntc]

Alpha Dog.... are you trying to make a joke?

The palm strike and the punches form the internal and external strike tools of WC. There are specific reasons why they exist. If used correctly, they are both very powerful.

By the way, hitting someone with a bag of oranges can hurt if struck at the right place....... the groin (wouldn't want to be me), or the nose (it can break the nose).

[Jim Roselando]

Hello again,


Well, since nobody has hit on my question of the question I will just give out the answer I believe in!

The original question was:

what do you think is a more powerful strike and why?

a) palmstrike
b) punch


The answer is neither! They are both equal. Its not the end tool but the path of the tool driving it home.

If you look at the alignment of the Sun Punch and the Side Palm you will see that the only difference is the hand position! Both make use of the exact same alignment! Extend your hand out to the Sun Fist position and then leave it in that same position and open the hand to form it in the Side Palm position. No difference, just a different tool. It all about how we deliver the power.


Regards,

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by ntc
Alpha Dog.... are you trying to make a joke?

No. Didn't you see "Grifters"?

[ntc]

Alpha Dog:

No, pardon the ignorance... what is "Grifters"?

[Alpha Dog]

It's a movie where that technique I described is employed. Get it at Blockbuster this weekend!

[ntc]

Sounds good... I will make a stop to Blockbuster if time permits. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Alpha Dog]

I also recommend Donny Brasco. Don't watch either if you're on a date, though! You'll be back online by 10 PM.

[WCis4me]

Hi Jim,
Sorry couldn't get to take a stab at your question before now. I was tending to my anonymous email stalker/impersonator/internet warrior, who feels I have nothing substantial to contribute to this forum and feels it is better if I just leave here.<<think it is part of my hazing to become a bonafide memeber of the Illuminati, Wooohoo, another rung up in the enlightenment ladder.>> LOL
Annyyyyyyway.....back to WC,

The answer is neither! They are both equal. Its not the end tool but the path of the tool driving it home.
I agree completely, and think I said the something pretty much to the same effect in my post prior to your question.
Best Regards,
Vicky

[marcelino31]

I still go with my first reply, a palm is more powerful than a fist.

I have yet to see someone break as many bricks with a fist as they do with a palm... If you don't believe it try doing it yourself...

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Vicky/Marcelino,


Vicky!

So, you have a stalker huh! Watch out for those internet wackos! Glad to see we agree as it has to be that way IMO!


Marcelino!

I have to disagree with you. If you take my example of Sun Punch and Side Palm you cannot deny that the two are basically one! So, there is no way one can be more powerful!

As for the breaking of bricks, all I would say is the main reason is people do not feel like cutting their knuckles but I would be pretty confident that it was the path of force breaking the bricks and not the shape of the hand. The palm would not get scratched up on the rough surface but if someone put a little cover on the knuckles (or on the bricks) it would not be any different.

Perhaps you could explain to me why the Side Palm would be more powerful than the Sun Punch if both hold the same structure?

Looking forward to more chat!


Regards,

[marcelino31]

Hi Jim,

Well its mostly for the reasons you already stated... all other things being equal it might be possible for a fist to equal a palm.
But in terms of application i believe that a palm anatomically can deliver a more powerful strike because the surface area at the point of contact is greater than the knuckle. Also the contact point is nearer to the wrist and not at the knuckles so the power is more focused. As mentioned already the knuckles are very fragile and in UFC competitions a broken knuckle ring or pinky finger is very common. It is therefore safer and i feel therefore more logical to assume that a more powerful blow can be delivered with a palm.

[WCis4me]

My understanding is that we are to form our fists, not with protruding knuckles or sloped fist, but flat/square.
As I understand it, the part of the fingers (below the bottom knuckles) are actually the part of the fist that are supposed to be the contact platform.
Ok it is hard to describe a visual in words.....here's a link of what I mean, it shows the two examples.
Good / Bad Fist (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp)
If that is supposed to be the contact area, I am unclear as to how it is smaller than the heal of a palm (making the palm a more powerful force). That portion of your fist should be equal to the heal of your palm.....I am closing my fist that way and looking at the heal of the palm to measure to get at this conclusion.
From what I have been taught there is much less chance of damage to your knuckles if you keep your fist in the good form and you will deliver a more concrete punch, could even say equal to a palm strike's power.
Just my observations,
Vicky.

[S.Teebas]

I see the Palm strike to be the safer option. Using a punch means the force has to travel through small and fragile bones in your hand.

[WCis4me]

Hi S. Teebas,

Originally posted by S.Teebas
I see the Palm strike to be the safer option. Using a punch means the force has to travel through small and fragile bones in your hand.
Great point!
I was concerned about that myself. It was explained to me (as a novice until I can develop into an effective palm strike) to keep my fist VERY tight in its fold. It was explained that way it formed a more solid base and would reduce the risk of injury to my hand when I strike.
Sorry, I forgot to mention how my fist must be clenched in my above post.
I do believe though that once an effective palm strike is developed it is preferred by my Seniors.
My mind is still hooked on the combination theory though. Most likely my mind will change more than once over time, training and testing.
Vicky

[TjD]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
I have to disagree with you. If you take my example of Sun Punch and Side Palm you cannot deny that the two are basically one! So, there is no way one can be more powerful!

As for the breaking of bricks, all I would say is the main reason is people do not feel like cutting their knuckles but I would be pretty confident that it was the path of force breaking the bricks and not the shape of the hand. The palm would not get scratched up on the rough surface but if someone put a little cover on the knuckles (or on the bricks) it would not be any different.

Perhaps you could explain to me why the Side Palm would be more powerful than the Sun Punch if both hold the same structure?


Jim you hit the nail on the head here. good structure = good structure. your body can issue the same amount of force through either a fist or a palm, however if your hand isnt conditioned or is hitting something hard, it's more likely to break if it hasnt been conditioned.

if your punches are weaker than your palms, its most likely a mental hangup for fear of hurting your hands. i'd even go as far as to say a biu is just as powerful as a palm/punch, just many peoples fingers arent conditioned/strong enough :D

[sel]

i think that the palm strike is the more superior strike of the two.

when punching, there is risk of wrist bending, or flexing. the bones in the hand all compress and move as well, which can cushion the strike a bit. the structure of the strikes is the same up to the wrist, but the wrist can be a weak point.
a palm strike hits with the solid bone at the end of the forearm. the force doesn't have to pass through another joint or the small bones in the hand, so you are in effect striking harder with the end of the forearm bone.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by sel
what do you think is a more powerful strike and why?

a) palmstrike
b) punch


Ans:

C] Knive hand and sword finger.

These kill.:D

[EnterTheWhip]

The Wing Chun punch has no weakness, the executioner does. So, if your punch isn't as solid as your palm strike - train it to be.

[sel]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
The Wing Chun punch has no weakness, the executioner does. So, if your punch isn't as solid as your palm strike - train it to be.

the fact is ultimately bones are bones. you can try to condition them as much as you want to which may increase the bone's threshold but there is a limit to how conditioned they can become. once the stress on the bone surpasses that threshold, it will break or fracture. therefore, the les bones that are involved the less the risk of this happening and the more power is maximised, even though the force delivered through the arm is equal.

Originally posted by WCis4me
As I understand it, the part of the fingers (below the bottom knuckles) are actually the part of the fist that are supposed to be the contact platform.

i understand that it is the knuckles themselves which deliver the force, even though the whole face of the fist (knuckles and part of the fingers below the bottom knuckles) might make contact with the target.
when you squeeze your fist tight, your fingers will 'screw in' actually giving the shape of the fist in the second picture. the only way to avert this is to leave your last two fingers loose.
in the article from the link you provided http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp
it says:
"The fist should be squeezed tightly to avoid injury to the hand and to make a more solid and formidable weapon."

i was taught the fist should not be sqeezed tightly at all, but just held firmly to keep the fingers out of harms way. (e.g, imagine that you are holding a pen inside your fist. you should be able to pull the pen out easily) and that squeezing the fist tightly also creates tension in the forearm which gives another avenue for loss of power.

[marcelino31]

"Therefore power from the palm is direct and is not lost in any joint (eg wrist)."

Sel, our posts are one percent in agreement. And you have more eloquently expressed the same points i was trying to make...

regards.

[yuanfen]

Parts of the discussion is a bit problematic---

a good wing chun kung fu man can issue sufficient power to do serious damage from any bridge with whatever is available at the moment. Progressing in wing chun is the key.


A single punch- even a non wing chun punch can sometimes do lethal damage. About 3-4 years ago in Northern Arizona a man killed another with a single punch to the throat. The killer who was in the wrong came from a powerful family and he had access to good counsel -
the justice system did not throw the full book at him.

[WCis4me]

Hi Sel,

when you squeeze your fist tight, your fingers will 'screw in' actually giving the shape of the fist in the second picture. the only way to avert this is to leave your last two fingers loose.
Ok I think I see what you mean here. I tried forming my fist the way I used to and if I tighten it it does do that. The thing is that when I was taught about the fist thing I was also taught to do the original forming of the fist differently. The way I now form it (the fist) creates a tight solid base. I'll try to give the visual and explanation of what I was taught as best I can:
Take the hand and bend the fingers to touch the top of the palm (where the bottom of the fingers connect to the hand), then keeping the fingers where they are, roll the hand tightly inward into the fist, thumb across index finger, tip of thumb should ideally be placed near the end of the index finger/edge of middle finger but not overlapping the middle finger. It forms a nice solid, tight, not sloping fist.

(e.g, imagine that you are holding a pen inside your fist. you should be able to pull the pen out easily)
Yes I could see why you would be concerned with injury and force with the hand loose as you described.

and that squeezing the fist tightly also creates tension in the forearm which gives another avenue for loss of power.
In forming the fist the way I have described I am not finding the tension in my forearm. I also watched my arm as I have struck with this type of fist (did it now as well hitting the fist onto the palm of the other hand) and the force goes through my forearm and out my elbow.
Of course this is just my preference and what I am used to at this time, as I said before I might like something else better as I progress.
As I said before in this thread, I am not advocating the punch over the palm strike, I prefer using the combination of the two idea (for the reasons I described earlier in this thread), I am just giving the example of the punch because it was being discussed and for a beginner their palm strike is probably not developed effectively yet.
Thanks for the great example so that I could try out what you meant.
Vicky

[byond1]

hi ..just my 2 cents....

i think hendrik gave the correct answer!!;) but if we look at the punch vs.palm..excluding the biu...

i dont think the punch is the same as the palm....the basic alignment is the same.....but the end result is differant....application and energywise!
for example...the fist...focus the force into a more concentrated area...(if you punch correclty)..and can use the churn lik..spiral energy very efectivly.....the palm tends to spread it out a bit more....but is softer in nature...and uses a more of a wave type ging....and is over all better for energy disruption....though the punch is over all better for bruising/muscle damage....
i do agree with that one isnt better than the other in general...one is better for specific jobs though!!
if the results were exactly the same.....;) the wck ansestors would not have been repetative and included both in the curiculum!!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Brian,




i think hendrik gave the correct answer!!

Hendrik's answer was correct but we are not discussing those aspects at the moment.


i dont think the punch is the same as the palm....

Depends on which palm we are talking about!

the basic alignment is the same.....but the end result is differant....application and energywise!

Depends on which palm we are talking about! If the alignment is the same and the path is the same then the finished product is just a different shape which is somewheat meaningless is you see the first two things.

for example...the fist...focus the force into a more concentrated area...(if you punch correclty)..and can use the churn lik..spiral energy very efectivly.....the palm tends to spread it out a bit more....

Churn Lik is also found in the Palm/all movements. I dont think the area of concentration is that different especially if we are talking about Sun Punch versus Side Palm or even the Jing Jeung.

but is softer in nature...and uses a more of a wave type ging....


The impact point on our body is softer (palm/versus knuckle) but the Ging is not different with the Sun Punch and Side Palm. Same everything! They just happen to fit better in certain spots.

and is over all better for energy disruption....though the punch is over all better for bruising/muscle damage....

Both cause damage when applied properly IMO.

i do agree with that one isnt better than the other in general...one is better for specific jobs though!!

Agreed

if the results were exactly the same..... the wck ansestors would not have been repetative and included both in the curiculum!!

WC ancestors were smart, and realized both have their place when applying them on your opponent, but they were also smart enough to not over think when the answer is simple IMO. Atleast that is how I was told to view it from a Koo Lo understanding of WC.


Regards,

[byond1]

as i said "excluding the biu"......out of the punch and palm..

i dont think it depends on which palm or punch we are talking about:D ..the aligment and path will never be the same. the extra extension of arm that is used in the punch makes it not the same path...it is a unique path, imo ...of cource it may depend on the punching technique we are talking about

"churn lik is found in the palm/all movments"--heh never said it wasnt...what i said--- " with the punch...you can use the chrunlik very effectivly...palm tends to spread the force out more"....so we have a slightly differant path....the energy has a longer path to travel....and a less flexible one at that (especially in nonkoolo wck.lol) hence, imo the palm can generate a ver nice wave ging..that the punch is not suitable for
of cource this all depends on the contact surface.....the majority of wck punchs align differantly than palm strikes do......due to the striking surface being that of the hand knuckles....
this strikeing suface of my punch does concentrate force into 1 point.as well does my phoenix eye!!!..this does not happen in a palm strike.....
a agree they fit better in specific spots....good point!
of cource both cause dammage...but i beleive they are better suited for differant jobs...energy dispersion for example is differant than bone shattering!!:cool: :eek: :) :)

[byond1]

as i said "excluding the biu"......out of the punch and palm..

i dont think it depends on which palm or punch we are talking about:D ..the aligment and path will never be the same. the extra extension of arm that is used in the punch makes it not the same path...it is a unique path, imo ...of cource it may depend on the punching technique we are talking about

"churn lik is found in the palm/all movments"--heh never said it wasnt...what i said--- " with the punch...you can use the chrunlik very effectivly...palm tends to spread the force out more"....so we have a slightly differant path....the energy has a longer path to travel....and a less flexible one at that (especially in nonkoolo wck.lol) hence, imo the palm can generate a ver nice wave ging..that the punch is not suitable for
of cource this all depends on the contact surface.....the majority of wck punchs align differantly than palm strikes do......due to the striking surface being that of the hand knuckles....
this strikeing suface of my punch does concentrate force into 1 point.as well does my phoenix eye!!!..this does not happen in a palm strike.....
a agree they fit better in specific spots....good point!
of cource both cause dammage...but i beleive they are better suited for differant jobs...energy dispersion for example is differant than bone shattering!!:cool: :eek: :) :)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello B.,


i dont think it depends on which palm or punch we are talking about ..the aligment and path will never be the same. the extra extension of arm that is used in the punch makes it not the same path...it is a unique path, imo ...of cource it may depend on the punching technique we are talking about

All movements follow a path but if we keep with the Sun Punch/Side Palm they do follow the same path/alignment in Koo Lo WC.

"churn lik is found in the palm/all movments"--heh never said it wasnt...what i said--- " with the punch...you can use the chrunlik very effectivly...

Same goes for the palms IMO.

palm tends to spread the force out more"....

Not so sure if its that much more spread out but since its not just a few knucnkles and it is replaced with the heel of the palm I may see a bit of what you are talking about but then even when you punch into a softer target you will find your more than a concentrated area penetrating into the target so I tend to think with these two (Sun/Side) they are one just with a different tool on the end of the important stufff.

so we have a slightly differant path....

Not with the Sun/Side.

the energy has a longer path to travel....

I have to disagree. If you put up a mun sao and let the mun sao punch or side palm the distance is the same.

and a less flexible one at that (especially in nonkoolo wck.lol) hence, imo the palm can generate a ver nice wave ging..that the punch is not suitable for

Less flexible? Have not heard of this before.

of cource this all depends on the contact surface.....

Which is what makes a difference in what we use.

the majority of wck punchs align differantly than palm strikes do......due to the striking surface being that of the hand knuckles....

Most WC methods have a slightly differenent alignment but some are just extensions of the others and only have "minor" differences and some have no differences. Take the Fook in Som Bai Fut. Place your hand in Fook (with bent wrist) and then leave your hand in the same spot and align your fist into the sun punch position and the take it to the third spot and align your fist into the side palm! Tell me whats the difference?

this strikeing suface of my punch does concentrate force into 1 point.as well does my phoenix eye!!!..this does not happen in a palm strike.....

The intent of the Sun Punch and Side Palm have the same focus basically. Drill thru your opponent. The contact point on the hand is just replaced with the heel of the palm. Not the whole palm.

a agree they fit better in specific spots....good point!
of cource both cause dammage...but i beleive they are better suited for differant jobs...energy dispersion for example is differant than bone shattering!!

A punch to the ribs can shatter the ribs. A palm to the jaw can crack the jaw. A punch to the jaw and crack the jaw and a palm to the ribs and bust the ribs. Some stuff can have a different result but some stuff can have a similar result.


Regards,

[Phenix]

Love is more powerfull then hate.
Compassionate is more powerfull then resentment.


Use a punch to relax the tight shoulder to tame blood pressure after a day of computer work.
Use a palm to knock out the jamming of food in a kids's throat.

You see the patient smile and the kid's mom smile.

That is the most powerfull.
And one has better future karma also.
So see it is powerfull now and later.


------------------

It is not about hate it is about compassionate
It is not about power it is about Grace.:D

[anerlich]

Use a palm to knock out the jamming of food in a kids's throat.

I thought the Heimlich maneuvre was a better choice for this. And it's in the the secret TWC 4th form. And BJJ.