Kiuh Sau 14 concepts

[Mckind13]

Hi all

I believe these are the 14 Kiuh Sau methods Chango and I were discussing before that thread was closed.

1 Tiu (Pick up "with a stick")
2 Buot (push aside)
3 Da (hit)
4 Pun (fold)
5 Juar (grasp)
6 Lai (pull)
7 See (shear)
8 Tshai (quick pull)
9 Bik Force (cornering someone)
10 Hup (continue to put pressure on - "overpowering")
11 Taan (swallow)
12 Tuo (spit)
13 Buort (taking change - "gamble")
14 Saat (stop - "kill/subdue totally")

If anyone has any experience with Gee Sim Weng Chun and wants to continue do explore these Bridge Hand methods then let me know.

Tiu - to pick up with a stick. Does this mean the first method is to seize an opponent? Like Chin Na?

David

[Mckind13]

No I do not.

I wanted to start a conversation with those that post here with that knowledge.

Maybe someone will take the chance and communicate

[Chango]

As Hoffman Sifu, explained the kiu sau cannot be understood through the spoken or written word! "we must share the expiences of the kiu sau!" This is an example of the unique relationship shared by Sifu/student, Student to student etc... So it would be somewhat pointless to try to explain via this format.

Tiu can be discribed as lifting from inside to out. Then again this still does not give the concept justice. With out shared experience we could go on like this for thread after thread. I'm sorry I do not have time for this. maybe we could discuss other aspects of CHI SIM?


Chango

:D

[spyder]

Chango wrote
As Hoffman Sifu, explained the kiu sau cannot be understood through the spoken or written word!

Can any wing Chun? Why have a forum then?

Spyder

[reneritchie]

Everything understandable is explainable in written form, be they feelings of joy or sorrow, physics real and theoretical, music classical and hip hop, enlightenment vulgar and profound.

Shakespeare
Chekov
Laozi
Hawking
Motzart
Musashi

These popular examples and thousands of others were not oafs shilling simple whims.

The only time something can't be shared to some extent in written form is when an individual is:

1) Unwilling
2) Unable

For the latter, writing is a skill like any other, through practice, it will grow and sharpen. Take a look at the Taijiquan classics, or ask someone what a Kuen Po is.

For the former, there's no help, but it would save time to be upfront about it.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Chango
As Hoffman Sifu, explained the kiu sau cannot be understood through the spoken or written word! "we must share the expiences of the kiu sau!"
Grandmaster Hoffman and Chango are right on the money. A forum can only convey an idea of an experience, but it cannot replace the experience itself. Because of this, and without 'you' and 'I' speaking from the same experience, a common understanding is near impossible.

Certainly things can be explained so long as all parties involved have a similar grounding of that specific experience to achieve the appropriate understanding. Being that we are discussing martial arts - and from various lineages, common experiences are vital to discussion.

[spyder]

Many of the greatest physicist have managed to discuss some of the most complicated ideas known to man in a easy manner. Is wing chun more difficult than physics?

The musicians, poets, and authors have related experiences over millennia. Can't be too hard to do. What similar experience did Hellen Kellar have?

[QUOTE]Rene Wrote:
1) Unwilling
2) Unable
/QUOTE]

Sounds about right to me. Probably the latter.

Spyder

[dzu]

So does that mean we have to have an apple drop on our heads to learn about gravity?

Think of all the cultural and scientific advancements that have been written about in human history.

If a certain martial art can't be written about, why bother writing magazine articles to promote it?

Dzu

[EnterTheWhip]

I'm sure more could be added to that list. Or perhaps they fall under the 2 you have listed. For example, under "unable" we would have "unknowledgable". Under "unwilling" we could have "arrogant". Or perhaps one is unwilling because he/she is unable. Translating the add-ons... One is arrogant to disguise the "unknowledgableness".

[Mckind13]

I do not seem to be having trouble explaining my Chi Sou methods on another post.

Kiu Sou Faat are methods, they are ment to be explained so that the student can meditate on the ideas.

David

[reneritchie]

If someone doesn't want to share, I have no problem with that. If someone considers something the precious treasure of their KF family and believes they've spent significant time/effort to understand/achieve it and do not want to pass it along in anything other than direct, one-on-one verbal/physical exchange, just say so and I understand completely. Likewise, if you don't understand it yourself well enough to feel confident relaying it, or you think it would take more effort than you're willing to give to do it, that's fine to. Or even if someone's sifu just said please don't post this on the internet. No problem. There's no gun to anyone's head, and no one is (whether they mistakenly think so or not) entitled to anything from anyone here.

But please don't say its "unexplainable", which aside from it obviously not being (difficult, perhaps, time consuming maybe, but impossible? try cold fusion sometime), creates a lot of noise and back and forth bikering where there really doesn't have to be any.

[linebacker]

I agree with Hoffman Sifu. Although writing is a good way of communicating, its no substitute for the actual experience.

Yes, there has been multitude of writing on physics and other more complicated concepts than wing chun, but no physicist learned physics just out of a book. The concepts discussed in the textbooks are always supplemented by lab experiments and field work.

Anne Sullivan didn't just describe water to Helen Keller. See the excerpt below:

Helen later recounted the incident:

"We walked down the path to the well-house, attracted by the fragrance of the honey-suckle with which it was covered. Someone was drawing water and my teacher placed my hand under the spout. As the cool stream gushed over one hand she spelled into the other the word water, first slowly, then rapidly. I stood still, my whole attention fixed upon the motions of her fingers. Suddenly I felt a misty consciousness as of something forgotten, a thrill of returning thought, and somehow the mystery of language was revealed to me."

Written communication is important but can be a source of confusion and misunderstanding. As everyone will interpret the writing based on their own experience. No good teacher, especially of something like wing chun, would rely soley on it, nor should a good student.

[Savi]

Originally posted by linebacker
I agree with Hoffman Sifu. Although writing is a good way of communicating, its no substitute for the actual experience.

Yes, there has been multitude of writing on physics and other more complicated concepts than wing chun, but no physicist learned physics just out of a book. The concepts discussed in the textbooks are always supplemented by lab experiments and field work..........

Written communication is important but can be a source of confusion and misunderstanding. As everyone will interpret the writing based on their own experience. No good teacher, especially of something like wing chun, would rely soley on it, nor should a good student.
Linebacker,
I believe you and I come from a similar understanding! Truth and reality can only be fully understood through ALL of your body's senses. Complimenting that thought, this what Zen Buddhism also stresses.

[yuanfen]

Truth and reality can only be fully understood through ALL of your body's senses. Complimenting that thought, this what Zen Buddhism also stresses.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
More to it. In the Surangama sutra- a Chan classic... the dialogue-
leads one through the use of sight, sound etc--- eventually showing that disciplined "understanding" is the key---the
non delusional mind.

I have a part hearing loss- but a touch can tell me a lot.
And while the disciplined experience is important to Chan---
one can still have dialogoues that point to the way.

[Savi]

Originally posted by yuanfen
And while the disciplined experience is important to Chan---
one can still have dialogoues that point to the way.
True, but I would like to make certain we on the same page that "pointing the way" cannot replace the way itself, right?

For me, I am not challenging the aspect of the thread that "things can or can't be explained/written due to...." I am stressing the point that the "written word" cannot be fully understood in its complete context without experiencing it as well. This (discussion + a common experience) can only lead to a more informed judgement and prosperous discussion as well, I think.

[canglong]

In the story of the flower it was Buddha showing his students the beauty of the flower not describing for them the flower itself.

[yuanfen]

Participating in a wrtten forum isnt "silence"

[canglong]

The participation of some isn't golden but that is not the point.

[yuanfen]

McKind 13 in good faith in this thread offered 14 kiu sau
principles as a basis for comparison.

A good opportunity to chew and share and discuss dialectically
if not connotatively.

I have no reason to question his good faith- I have not met him
either.

[canglong]

The Grandmaster of Chi Sim Weng Chun states that kiu sau is something better taught in class as opposed to an internet forum I have met him and Mckind13 both and will trust that the Grandmaster is correct in this particular matter.

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

The Grandmaster of Chi Sim Weng Chun states that kiu sau is something better taught in class as opposed to an internet forum I have met him and Mckind13 both and will trust that the Grandmaster is correct in this particular matter. C

Lots of things are "better taught" in person -- golf, tennis, wing chun -- but nevertheless they can be discussed or written about. Moreover, that discussion or writing can have a positive effect on the individuals involved and in their performance of the respective activity (a hands-on lesson from Tiger Woods is better than reading an article on driving by him, but the article may still help your game). Certainly nothing will substitute good, hands-on instruction -- and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. But IME oftentimes a different perspective, a different phrase, someone putting it a way I haven't heard before will spark me to look at what I'm doing in a new way and open up some door I hadn't looked into. TN

But I have a question about Andreas' kiu sao: where did it come from? Which lineages of Fung Siu Ching make use of the "14 kiu sao"? TN

Terence

[desertwingchun2]

"But I have a question about Andreas' kiu sao: where did it come from? Which lineages of Fung Siu Ching make use of the "14 kiu sao"?" - TN

Terence why not e-mail GM Hoffman and ask him? By persuing that course of action any answer you receive will be directly from the source.

-David

[reneritchie]

It also depends to whom you are speaking. With beginners, pages and pages may no suffice, and even hands on might only give the faintest of inclings. With some experienced folk, a few lies of text can share profound amounts.

Before Hendrik and I met, in a few emails we shared great understandings for each others arts, likewise with Jim Roselando and myself when he took up Pien San.

So, while no one can learn physics absent lab work and hopefully real world work as well, physicists can pick up a science journal and read an article from within their field and understand quite a bit (and then decide to follow up particular interests as warrented).

But as I said, no one has to share anything, and no one may be able to share something, so to each their own, and I'll go back to David's thread where a several year student is sharing reems and some of us with experience are understanding him just fine (for those keeping track, that's an experiment proving the thesis :P)

[t_niehoff]

desertwingchun2 wrote:

Terence why not e-mail GM Hoffman and ask him? By persuing that course of action any answer you receive will be directly from the source. DW2

What do you mean "directly from the source"? I didn't ask where *he* got them from; I asked where they came from (are you suggesting that Hoffman is the source of the 14 kiu sao?) and which lineages of Fung Siu Ching had them. I thought some of you had studied with Andreas -- are you saying that none of his students on this forum, including those that are "instructors" in Chi Shim weng chun, are able to answer the question? TN

Terence

[Mckind13]

Just back from LA and a great day of training with my Sifu :)

(Chango Wrote) Tiu can be described as lifting from inside to out. Then again this still does not give the concept justice. With out shared experience we could go on like this for thread after thread. I'm sorry I do not have time for this. maybe we could discuss other aspects of CHI SIM?

Chango my friend. Lifting from inside to out is extremely descriptive. Wth a few more words I am sure I could understand a little better. Perhaps even compare it to a like energy in the Wing Chun I practice. Thanks.

Buot (push aside) - To me this sounds like displacing the opponents energy (i.e. the side body Pak) or perhaps turning the opponent after contact. Chango if you want to participate, that would be cool.

David

[Mckind13]

Okay guys,

This is a Kiu Sou thread, lets not get to far off track or I'll sick Sandman and alpha dog on you all.

Desert Wing Chun any speculation on the the next point of the 14 Kiu Sou?

Have you gone through the instructors course?

Thanks

David

[t_niehoff]

desertwingchun, let me refer you to the thread on paranoia . . . the question came up as to where Robert's 18 chi sao methods came from and we, his students, said that he organized them himself but that the material was inherent in WCK . . . so my question is simply where did the 14 kiu sao come from -- is this Andreas' organization of Fung Siu Ching's material (and there is nothing wrong with that if it is) or Way Yan's organization or someone else's? Can anyone answer this question?

Terence

[FuTaiChi]

The 18 Kiu Concepts are the heart of Weng Chun and every family knows these concepts. They come directly from Southern Shaolin.

CU
FuTaiChi

[Mckind13]

FuTaiChi

Hi. Can you post these same methods found in another Shaolin art and the source please.

If you have some expertise maybe you can post your understanding of a few of them.

David

[reneritchie]

BTW- Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu's excellent (still by far the best work I've ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they're in German. Perhaps I'll have time to pop them into babblefish or the like next week.

Sigh.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

All,
Sifu Hoffman has emailed me, and politely requested that any and all discussion of Chi Shim please not be had on this msg board. If you have questions regarding them, he would very much like for you to email him directly. I'm not going to censor people discussing Chi Shim, but he would appreciate it if people wouldn't discuss it on here. Just thought I'd let you know.

[yuanfen]

A sensible position- I sure dont care to discuss any art besides wing chun.

Let things that cannot be discussed be...Jee Shim, etc...

((However- if Gee Shim together with VTM's BM publishes articles as they have (Kung Fu-Qigong may-June 2002) in a public area- mentioning 14 principles- it stands to reason it can be discussed
anywhere asking for further public clarification---though I dont see the usefulness of discussing it.
Its a little tiresome to be told of things in Jee Shim or anyther system that are made into mysteries requiring off list communications- visitations etc. So why not let both groups be- and let them do whatever it is that they are doing?
And ignore their comments and sarcasms in the forum.
Equity also points to Firehawk and others not mentioninga thing about Gee Shim...??? Not just those who have sought clarifications...

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Sifu Hoffman has emailed me, and politely requested that any and all discussion of Chi Shim please not be had on this msg board. LOL! That's hilarious!

Okay everyone, please, out of respect for my lineage, I would like to not have any discussion of the Ip Man lineage on this forum.

If you have any questions regarding Ip Man lineage, you can private message me, personally.

[yuanfen]

I do not want anything about myself to be discussed in this forum.
email old jong if you have any questions. Given his line of work-
he knows all about me that you need to know. And I promise not to throw anything at him including . (see DSM lV- p 777 for the hint about my system )).

[Andreas Hoffman]

Here are the 14(18) Kiu sao of weng chun, some families are using 14 some families 18:

the idea is that you feel the connection with your partners(opponents) and the invironment you feel them thru relaxation, from there you learn to find and to use natural the bridge, or more advanced the bridge finds you because you are empty:

1.Tiu (pick up) - 2.Buot (push aside)
3.Da (striking) - 4.Pun (folding)
5.Juar (grasping-push) - 6.Lei (pull ("a waggon"))
7.See (tear)-8.Tshai (pull ("to open")
9.Kam (catch)-10.Na (hold)
11Fuong (prevent free movement/shield)- 12.Nghai (totally prevent free movement)
13.Bik (cornering someone)-14.Hup (further development)
15.Tan (swallow)-16.Tuo (spit)
17.Bot (trick)-18.Saat(kill)

Some families explaining all 18 with 14 (without Nr.: 9./10./11./12.)

Mo Kiu Mahn Yau Kiu
Kiu Loi Kiu Sheung Gwo
Lei Kiu bin jik da

Andreas Hoffmann

[t_niehoff]

RR wrote:

Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu's excellent (still by far the best work I've ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they're in German.

Aha! So they can be described in writing (Andreas does it on the forum too). Come to think of it, they're even writing a book about HFY . . . makes me sort of wonder what the fuss about talking about these arts in writing is all about. TN

Andreas Hoffman wrote:

Here are the 14(18) Kiu sao of weng chun, some families are using 14 some families 18 . . .

What? 18? Did they steal this number from Robert Chu? ;) LOL! Sorry, just kidding . . . sometimes the lunacy is so prevailing . . . . TN

Terence

[Chango]

I personally have no problem posting information about HFY or Chi Sim. I have found that with out having " shared expiences" assumptions are often made and ideas tend to get lost. It seems that without shared experiences the internet only serves as a method of what Rene Ritchie coined as "exchanging levels of misunderstanding" so It again goes back to the same reason you cannot learn Kung fu from a video tape or book.

I have no problem sharing information. I just have problems with disrespect and illintent. I find this to be waist of my time as well as the time of others envolved. It is a said state that one cannot discuss WCK without having some jumping in and creating sides or showing disrespect to the lineage, person or information all together. We all would benifit alot from focusing on our common ground instead of what makes our families different. It does not take a rocket scientist or brain surgeon to see that each family has some types of differences. In HFY we have a concept called maximum efficiency we have methods of testing this with through out the entire system. This term may offend some but this is how it is passed on in HFY. If discussing this issue you must remeber it is not saying better then one lineage or the other. One must challenge the HFY on it's proof of ME when one has a first hand chance. The system demands this from it's students as the system is being passed. So one should not take this personal. Just as with the Moy Yat system there is a term called the "unstopable" Techniques. Of course the Moy Yat system has a context which is used to explain this. None the less respect should be paid to the system and it's family. After all if we back up and look at the over all picture we are all in one big family!

one must pay proper respect to those who are Sifu's or concidered Grandmaster's of thier lineages. Some families may choose not to have this format. However respect should be given to those who have the responsiblity of guiding others through the system. That can be a great responsibility. one must also pay respect to his or her sources when presenting information. So let's move on and get into a more positive discussion.


Chango (saat geng sau) Noaks

[canglong]

I would just add to what my Sibak Chango has already put forth by suggesting this forum is merely one of many starting points when seeking answers to general questions. Any detailed information should always be followed up with more personal research and a visit to a qualified instructor whenever possible.


BTW- Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu's excellent (still by far the best work I've ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they're in German. Perhaps I'll have time to pop them into babblefish or the like next week. Rene Ritchie

Just one example of researching a general question. The details of these 14 kiu sau which are very intricate could only properly be shared with the experience of a qualified practitioner such as Grandmaser Hoffmann or one of his students also very knowledgable on the topic of the Chi Sim Weng Chun system.

[spyder]

What is the problem of discussing Kung Fu? One can write music down. One can make a 3D picture on a 2D surface. I think the problem is understanding both Kung Fu and communication. If we are all doing wing chun, then we should have a common base. It's not wing chun if it is that different from what we all experience I would think.

If written words can not convey wing chun, a picture certainly cannot. Yet there are tons of books on wing chun. And dancing. and other topics that must be felt or experienced. If we can not discus, they why have a forum?

Spyder