Han Ch'ing Tang

[r.(shaolin)]

NorthernShaolin, buddhapalm or anyone.
Do you have info on the any of the following people:

Han Ch'ing Tang
Ho Ch'ang Hai
Sung Bai Yuan

Kind regards,
r.

[buddhapalm]

Dear R,
Sorry I have not heard of these 3 people.

Any clues about them ? Are they still alive ?

I will keep my eyes open.

Best Regards
Buddhapalm

[r.(shaolin)]

Buddhapalm
Han Ch'ing Tang was Lohan Shaolin master originally from the main land China but moved to
Taiwan. His younger 'brother' Ho Ch'ang Hai lived in Hangzhou. They were 'Shaolin uncles' to
Sung Bai Yuan. Sung Bai Yuan was the son of Sung Yi Shan, my teachers 'uncle'.
All of these teachers included the forms Xiao Hong Chang Quan and Da Hong Chang Quan
in their Lohan wushu. I'm interested in finding out who Han Ch'ing Tang's and Ho Ch'ang Hai's teacher was.

[Tainan Mantis]

Performed T'ai-tzu Longfist 2-man chin-na, Seven-star Jian and 2-man Jian in the 1950 Taiwan Guo Shu meet.
This info comes from the Taiwan MA Developmental Survey.
This book lists the genealogy of almost every master , famous or not. If you tell me these people's principle and secondary styles it would be easier to locate this info that you want.

[r.(shaolin)]

They all were Shaolin (Lohan Men)
experts.

Qi Xing Wen Jian (Seven star sword)
Tai-tzu longfist is a often use as an informal
alternate name for both
Da and Xiao Hong Chang Quan in Shaolin.
These forms are all famous Shaolin forms.

Do you have the name of the 2 man sword contact Han Ch'ing Tang
did and who was his partner?
Thank you very much for your efforts Tainan Mantis and any info. you can pass on.
kind regards,
r.
ee

[Tainan Mantis]

-2 man sword is SAN TSAI JIAN.Partner's name is Fan Dz Hsiao.
-2 man chin-na: Partner's name Tsang Jian Chiu
-On the Longfist form I have seen all 3 forms that you mentioned; Tai-Dzu, Hsaio and Da-Hong Chuen and they were all dif.In Taiwan I have only seen people who consider these as 3 forms.
I have checked my book and found no more info on Han. But his name keeps ringing bells. I will check to see if there are any books he has published.
At the same show FAN DZ HSIAO also did
-Baji Chuen
-Shaolin short stick(bien)

[Crimson Phoenix]

in case you're interested, San Cai Jian is described in YMAA's Northern Shaolin Sword book...actually this sequence is also a solo routine, but that has a development made in the way that if someone does the solo form at one point and the other one does it starting somewhere else it becomes a two-men matching set...pretty cool...
Just my two cents

[Tainan Mantis]

The other form in the book is also a 2 man. Have you seen anyone do it?
What other 2 man forms have you seen in France?

[r.(shaolin)]

Hello Tainan Mantis
Sung Yi Shan(taught in Hong in the 1920’s and early 30’s)
Jyan Yi Chin(taught in Shanghai 1910’s and 1920’s)
and I think HoCh’ang Hai’s as well, credit, by ‘tradition,’ Shaolin Xiao and Da Hong Quan
to Zhao Kuangyin of Luoyang. A highly talented martial artist, who rose to the position of commander of the palace guard and later named Military Governor of Songzhou in Henan province.
Eventually Zhao Kuangyin became a Emperor in the Northern Song Imperial succession.
Taizu was actually his posthumous temple name. These forms have had a long association with the Henan region and Shaolin Temple.
This is why some time people call these forms Taizu Longfist.
Do you have the proper pinyin for for the full name of Han Ch’ing Tang’s form ‘Tai-Dzu Longfist’?
as well do you have the traditional histories of his three forms “Tai-Dzu, Xsaio and Da-Hong Quan”?
I would be interested Han Ch’ing Tang’s account of these three forms.

Do you know if Fan Dz Hsiao and Tsang Jian Chiu were Han Ch’ing Tang’s brothers or were they
his students?
Do you have the proper name (pinyin) of the stort stick Fan Dz Hsiao did. and what was the length of the stick?

As to other Shaolin jian contact forms these are two others.
Shaung Jian Po Qin
and Feng Ming Shuang Jian

thank you again for all your help and information.
regards,
r.

[Ralek]

I think they were all trained under Grandmaster Pei Wieu Fong.

Pei Wieu Fong trained them in the mystical arts of kung fu. They learned to use mystical chi powers like iron body, chi blast attack, and tai chi breathing. Then one day the evil master of chi Poo Poo Foo attacked Shaolin Temple. The 3 students jumped up in the air and did super chi kick. But evil chi master Poo Poo Foo used his chi powers to read their minds and predict what they would do. Poo Poo Foo blasted them with a huge chi ball. Then Grandmaster Pei Wieu Fong came out and confronted the evil chi master. "You have offended my family and you have offended a shoalin temple" said Grandmaster Pei Wieu Fong. The evil master of chi pulled out his mystical chi sword and struck at the Grandmaster. Grandmaster caught the swords blades between his palms and chi blasted Poo Poo Foo.

Grandmaster Pei Wieu Fong is my hero and is recongnized as the Greatest Grandmaster of chi. His students all have very strong chi and chi powers.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Tainan, I haven't seen much two-man forms here, the only other one I saw was a two-man wudang form that was name "wudang sword against sword matching" or something like that...I wish to see some more, this is a very interesting topic!

[Tainan Mantis]

What is the name of the book and the author from which you got the Song history? It is very hard to find good history books that mention MA.
One of my students did a search on the Taiwan web and discovered that Adam Hsu studied with Han.
As for more precise names I have already written everything and detail I can find about the previously asked questions. The word Bien is used for short stick. Bien is literally translated as whip or rod.
Do you know those 2 person sword forms?
San Tsai 2 man is fairly well known in Taiwan. I have another 2 man short stick form called Tiger Tail.

Crimson,
Did you get to learn that 2 man sword form.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Tainan, not yet, but my sifu will teach me the one man version soon (he can see the drool on my face everytime he practices it!!)...apparently it would come from Jiang Rong Qiao (who my sifu is a direct student of) who got it from Li Jing Lin.

talking about Yang Jwing Ming, his master was Li Mao Ching, student of Han Ching Tang...I know that in YJM's school there are two-men forms like saber against spear that come from Nanjing central Kuoshu institute, so maybe they are from Han too???

[RAF]

Adam Hsu taught Tony Yang the miao dao along with the two man fight. According to Tony, that form and fight came from Han Ching Tang. Also san cia jian as we know it came from him.

However the kun wu sword (different from the one in Yang Jwing Ming's book) and fight along with the taiji jian and fight came Zhang Xiang Wu who served under Li Jing Lin and probably was taught it by him.

GM Liu's first disciple, K. Leung of Boston, married Han Ching Tang's daughter and I believe they still teach much of his material, especially the longfist and Yang's taijiquan.

[r.(shaolin)]

I think that Li Mao Ching's material is mixed with styles not coming from Han Ch'ing T'ang.
Yang's art as even further removed by the fact that his connection to Han Ch'ing T'ang is through
Li Mao Ching and his material is further mixed.

Hi Tainan Manitis
Yes 'Bien' is the 'stiff wipe which is a rod. There are forms of the single and double rod
as well as a contact form for this weapon in Lohan Men. Is this the weapon your two man form is for?

There is also a short stick - 'Bang' which is really a short staff longer than the bien but shorter than
the 'eye' brow staff. Do you know which Han Ch'ing T'ang performed at the Taiwan Guo Shu meet. ?
You asked if I knew these two straight sword contacts, yes I do.

Faf.
What does 'miao' mean?
Do you have the correct pinyin?
Do you have the name of the contact form?

You mention taiji jian
Was this the Shaolin jian of which there are two single forms - Taiji Wen Jian (shang and xia - upper and lower) or was this sword form from Tiaji Quan which is different and unrelated.

I have my doubts about how much of Han Ch'ing T'ang's material Adam Hsu knows.

regards
r.






``

[RAF]

R(shaolin)

I lost the link to the Chen Taich Journal but there was a well written piece on the miao dao (miao, from what I can remember, refers to the shape of a grain of unpolished rice which looks like the shape of the dao used in the form, However,you might be right about the pinyin since this was written by two guys from Taiwan). I don't know anything about Adam Hsu's relationship to Han Ching Tang.

The miao dao has a couple of single moving training exercises, 4 line forms with counter moves (A and B side) and then a linked form played very fast (we us the Japapnese bambo like swords when performing).

I have never seen a shaolin taiji sword so again i cannot comment. In our taiji sword, we have a number of static posture training exercises. We have a number of two man circuling exercises, a first level (played slow) with A and B fighting also, and a second level in which fajing is added to key movement along with striking point (dian xue liki). Altho0ugh the first level is played in a continuous link, we teach it in 8 lines.

I just know that it most likely came from Zhang Xiang Wu who served along or under Li Jing Lin. All of my Yang style taiji comee from that line and Li Jing Lin hired Xong Wei Yi to teach them the Wudang taiji sword (that whole history of transmission is very unclear. I have seen reference to it as the Wudang Taiyi sword. That Song Wei Yi taught it to Yang Ban Hou who introduced it into the Yang family (since no record of Yang Lu Chan playing a jian. Barbara Davis's book on the Taiji sword with Chen Weiming (Yang Cheng Fu's popular disciple) indicates that Li Jing Lin came and taught Chen Weiming the fight. Chen Weiming's comment was Li Jing Lin's sword form was taiji with the exception of a small break of sword connection in the two man fight. To me this also casts grave doubts about Smith's story in which Yang CHeng Fu defeats Li Jing Lin in one move. According to the Davis translation, Yang Cheng Fu never taught Chen Weiming the fight behind the sword yet I udnerstand that Zheng Manqing taught a fight form or exercises to his sword form.

Later.

[Tainan Mantis]

My short sick form is called Tiger Tail Whip. I doubt it is the form that Han knew.
I have no way of knowing anymore details about what he did in the MA meet. The info is very sparse.
What style are your 2 jian forms that you mentioned?
The San Tsai jian form is purported to be Hsing Yi but it seems that there is a lack of solid proof.

[RAF]

The san cai jian, again, comes to us from Adam Hsu. We have a two man fight and everyone says its a xing yi form but no objective lineage is cited. It is not the same san cai jian found in Yang jwing ming's text.

Leung, in Boston, is married to Han Ching Tang's daughter. Only the would know for sure. I've never met them nor discussed anything with them. A lot of stuff in the MA seems to be a roll of the dice. Oh well. The politics are there too!

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Tainan Mantis
I listed some of the writers I like in one of my other posts (somewhere). The list wasn't
received very well. : - ( Unfortunately I don't have the time to find which books, page numbers etc. etc. :-e The info is from some of my notes and research over a number of years mostly complied from a number of sources cross referencing verbal histories. . . but . . . you might try 'Old History of the Five Dynasties' and 'New History of the Five Dynasties.' for info on Northern Sung. I would image Gene has a better records of his sources.

kind regards,
r.


˚

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi RAF
Thank-x fro the info.

We don't use the miao dao. We do however, use the Chinese military weapons ma dao and chi dao (these are two-handed knives/broadswords of medium length)

I believe that in the 1500's, it was Qi Ji Guang that was responsible for having this weapon adopted by the Chinese military.
Qi Ji Guang was a Chief of Staff during the time of Emperor Shizong. It was
between 1522 and 1566 that he fought Japanese pirates. He apparently was very impressed with their use of the sword. Based on the Japanese sword and the Chinese ma dao and chi dao he adopted and developed the weapon.
He authored a military manual on the Japanese long sword as well as others
weapons. The manual was praised by the Minister of Defense and resulted,
I believe, in having this weapon adopted by the Southern Chinese military.
r.

[SifuAbel]

Tainan Mantis,

Is this book available in the USA? I would like to get any information on Tai Tzu longfist(the style). The only name I know of in our liniage is Lee (or Li) wai (or wei) Fong. Any information would be most appreciated.

Thanks in advance
SA

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[baji-fist]

Hi everybody, it has been a while since I posted. Anyway, about the topic...like RAF Adam Hsu also shared a lot of his knolwedge with us regarding the material from Han Ching Tan. From Adam Hsu we picked up Jiao Men Changquan, Miao Dao, and San Tsai Jian. In Jiao Men Changquan there are three forms taught: Tan Tui, Paoquan, and Zhaquan. Some of the other Long Fist Styles Han had taught Adam Hsu were Shaolin and Mei Hua styles.

From what I understand, Han was Adam Hsu's first teacher. Dr. Liang also is the kung fu brother of Adam Hsu under both Han Ching Tan and Liu Yun Qiao. It would be interesting though to see the Long Fist taught by Dr Liang since he did marry Han's daughter.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hello Guo Bao-Lo
How do you translate 'San Tsai' in your sword form "San Tsai Jian"

ˇ

[baji-fist]

I totally forgot the meaning of the form. I believe it was the three powers sword, or something life that. Also I am not sure if my pinyin was correct. I have not spent too much time on this form. The jian forms I do practice is from Liu Yun Qiao. I practice Liang Yi Jian and Kun Wun Jian Yi Lu.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Crimson Phoenix]

San Cai=three power indeed (men, earth and heaven)

[Stumblefist]

"(miao, from what I can remember, refers to the shape of a grain of unpolished rice which looks like the shape of the dao used in the form,
The miao dao has a couple of single moving training exercises, 4 line forms with counter moves (A and B side) and then a linked form played very fast (we us the Japapnese bambo like swords when performing)".
----------------------------

Miao Dao means "Sprout Sword" refering to the shape of the sword which is a somewhat longer version of the Japanese Katana but holding to the same specifications of curvature etc. (I have a somewhat expensive katana for Iaido practice). In Taiwan they use a Bokken (wooden sword not the bamboo shinai) which is heavier and longer than the ones found in most Iaido Clubs. Also sword strokes are often practiced from straight down from behind the back rather than any of the horizontal start position variations over the head as common to most Iaido. This sword art is all over Taiwan in many variations, but there isn't much of it beyond a form and a few exercises and it usually accompanies/practiced alongside some other style. I heard it is still in Fujian. Anybody know anything there?
....
GM Liu Yun Qiao wrote a book (in chinese w/lots of pictures) on Gun Wu Jian. I thought he did San Cai Jian as well. Got video from 2 South Taiwan Meets with Jian demos prior to 1992.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[RAF]

Stumblefist:

GM Liu did not do the miao dao nor the san cai jian. These were taught at the Wu Tan Development Center by Adam Hsu who got them from Han Ching Tang.

The linked two man set is played with bambo Japanese sticks because you would kill the other 0pponent if you slipped--its played very, very fast. It is different from the A and B sides of the basic four lines of the form.

I don't have the site with me at this computer but will post it later but there is a sword site by Tom Chen who has pictures and compares the katana and miao dao along with its detailed history and translations from China. I think Keven Walleridge posted the site in an earlier exchange.

I have never used a real miao dao. When Tony Yang came to the US from the Wu Tan Martial Arts Development Center in 1980, he brought a box of wooden miao daos (I have one). They are somewhat different from the bokken you normally buy---they are longer and their handle is significantly longer than the Japanese swords.

We have never been able to find anymore of the wooden miao daos both in Taiwan and US. If you know of the locations, please drop the site.

Thanks.

[RAF]

Here is the article regarding the miao dao and katana. This is a great website with lots of good history and translations.

http://swordforum.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=css&Number=10430&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&part=

Have fun.

[Stumblefist]

"We have never been able to find anymore of the wooden miao daos both in Taiwan and US. If you know of the locations, please drop the site."

You need a bokken or a katana to learn how to cut properly and with power.
There are stores in both Kaohsiung and Tainan. I saw an all-taiwan meet in '95, many clubs played with the long wooden bokken. Usually the store is just a hole-in-the-wall somewhere. Usually i know how to get there but i don't write down the address i'll see if i can dig one up.
Can't believe they aren't in the north. Check out the University clubs in Taipei if you go there, and ask them where they bought the weapons.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[RAF]

Thanks STumblefist:

You are 100% correct about the bokken. The one I have from Taiwan is much bigger than the standard Japanese ones you buy in the state.

We are probably headed to Taiwan this summer and will check it out.

[RAF]

Here is the website of Han Ching Tang's daughter and son-in-law:

http://www.jiannshyong.com/