weight does not equal resistance

[chyisan]

Or so says a personal trainer at 24 hr fitness. I saw 2 girls working on calves the other night on one of those seated calve raise machines. One girl was on the machine while the other one was standing behind pressing down on the seat to give more resistance. I turn to them and said,
"you know, you could just add more weight." They turn to me and said,
"but we don't want to get big. If we add weight, we'll get big. So we just add resistance." They must have seen the look on my face because then they added, "That's what Matt told us and Matt's our god."
"Who's matt?"
"He's our personal trainer."

Is that not messed up or what?

[rubthebuddha]

let it go. your chances of convincing them otherwise are slim to none, and your chances of gettign this matt to admit his lack of brilliance are even less.

just avoid gym bunnies and ignore any PT about whom you get a negative gut feeling.

[IronFist]

Haha, I've never heard a good thing about 24 Hour Fitness.

IronFist

[zen_celt]

I'm currently helping a friend in my platoon train for airborne school(that's the Army school that teaches you to throw yourself out of a plane and live). She has to be able to do 5 pull ups( I think) and she currently can't do one all the way...but she's close. Anecdote and question... we were coming out of the gym with another girl we went with, who asked us what we had done and I explained we did bench and deads for 3x5 at heavy weight to build strength but not size. She seems to think that heavy weight of any kind will build size and strength and not just strength. I didn't feel like arguing over it but shook my head to myself. Anyway, the discussion did make me contmplate just how good the advice I was giving my friend was so if you don't mind, a little feedback on the following routine would be appreciated. The goals are to build strength and bodyweight endurance without size(although slimming and toning would be appreciated) and to build pull up ability(primary emphasis) with core strength so as to enable her to carry a rucksack(60lbs or so) and land without breaking her back.
Mon
squats 3x5 at increasing weight
walking lunges
horse stance
Tues
Bench, deads 3x5 at increasing weight
abs(with and without weight)

it just alternates like that six days a week or so(when we have time) with morning PT (mon, wed. fri-run tues/wed-push ups and sit ups)

any thoughts?
-ZC

[IronFist]

Originally posted by zen_celt
She seems to think that heavy weight of any kind will build size and strength and not just strength. I didn't feel like arguing over it but shook my head to myself.

Ask her then, how do they have 130 lbs powerlifters who can DL a lot more than most bodybuilders.

Size is dependent upon volume, intensity, and diet. 2 or 3 sets of 5 with lots of rest will not build size (unless you got some crazy genes)

IronFist

[iron thread]

She seems to think that heavy weight of any kind will build size and strength and not just strength.

Zen_celt, doesn't the FM 21-20 say something against this? If it does, just show it to her.

[guohuen]

Tell her the guy that was the wind dummy on the flight the first female to graduate airborne school jumped from says your plan is a good one and she should do it. (that would be me) Her response should be "Yes Sergeant, Airborne!":D

[zen_celt]

Thanks IronFist

Iron Thread- LMAO

Guohuen- I'll do that

-ZC

[ryuujin]

I make it a personal point not to take advice from someone unless they have proven in some way to be a bad @$$ in some area they are giving advice. When i can bench press 325 at 18 and a 25 year that can only get 250 and ive seen him in the gym for the last year, and we are of the same build tells me im doing the bench wrong. Its a pretty good chance hes a moron or has the worst genetics in the universe and im not going to listen to him? oh by the way that was a true story, its hard not to laugh in peoples faces sometimes.

[Serpent]

LOL. I love these stories!

zen_celt - your program seems pretty good to me, given the goals.

[Robinf]

zen_celt,
Your program is lacking. She needs to build core strength if she wants to be all around strong.

For abs, I'm assuming you're doing basic crunch and twist with and without weight.

Try having her do hanging leg raises, without swinging her body. Work up to 3 or 4 X 12. This will also improve her grip. And, no, she won't get "man hands" by doing it--she'll just be stronger.

Try pushups with going off to one side (so go down, push up and rotate one side up lifting that arm off the floor into the air). Go both ways.

Try bench single arm--with dumbells. She'll feel her abs work--if she doesn't have her take her feet off the floor.

Do you have her walking lunge sideways and backwards--and not just forward? How about turning lunges?

Are you assisting her in doing chins so that her body at least is used to the motion?

[Suntzu]

:cool: Matt's a pimp...

[IronFist]

Originally posted by ryuujin
When i can bench press 325 at 18 and

Holy crap. How much do you weigh?

IronFist

[Shaolin-Do]

I am matt, good to see my namesake pimpin the gym bunnies with his ass backwards advice.

Any workout you half ass isnt going to work. Gaining size depends on diet, and your training, but along with diet:
Heavy weight, lower reps = Mass building
Lighter weigh, higher reps = toning muscle

Any weight lifting is going to build strength....

[ewallace]

Uhh...SD, you got the mass building and toning switched around.

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont think so.... I been doing heavy weights to build mass, works great thus far.
Tried doing little weights lots of reps to tone, didnt work. Even look at it from the cardio stand point or what have you, its more of a fat burning exercise to do more reps. thats why high reps, low weights leans you out nice like. My room mate was doing high weights, low reps, and was gaining weight. Didnt want that, he switched it up and has been cuttin up quite nice like since.

[Ford Prefect]

SD,

Both you and ewallace are right depnding on your perspective. Could you provide an example of sets and reps by what you mean when you say "heavy weights/low reps" and the same for when you say "light weights/high rep".

I can tell you right off the bat the the 15+ rep toning myth is just that: a myth. It's a pretty common one here in America though.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Gaining size depends on diet, and your training,


Yes.


Heavy weight, lower reps = Mass building


Depends on what you mean by "heavy weight" and "low reps." Look at the following:

10 sets of 1 or 2 reps with 5 minutes rest with 90% or 1RM (very "heavy weight") will not build size.



Lighter weigh, higher reps = toning muscle

Nope. Not at all. Muscle tone means a) having the muscle developed in the first place and b) having low enough bodyfat to be able to see the muscle. High reps doesn't burn enough calories to really do anything when it comes to lowering bodyfat, and therefore won't help you "tone" at all.



Any weight lifting is going to build strength....

Nope.

IronFist

[CD Lee]

When i can bench press 325 at 18 and a 25 year that can only get 250 and ive seen him in the gym for the last year, and we are of the same build tells me im doing the bench wrong. Its a pretty good chance hes a moron or has the worst genetics in the universe


1. 325 at 18 is a LOT. It is even more if you are smaller, but you have not told us your build. That is still quite impressive at any age.

2. 250 lbs bench at any age is strong. If he weighs 265 lbs. and is muscular, then maybe that is not so great, but it is still 250 lbs. of steel that is manipulated by a person. Not bad at all.

3. He may not be a moron just because he does not bench as well as somebody else. Bench press strength has a lot to do with genetic structural build and natural leverage of the joints. Some guys are never getting to 300 on a bench. Most guys in fact. They may however, be doing the bench correctly. I have seen guys 'bouncing' 315 off their chests and rocking. This is the wrong way to do bench and they are morons.

My last point is that Emmanual Stuard, the great boxing trainer, knows how to box correctly, better than any boxer still boxing. However, he cannot beat any top 50 fighters today.

[ryuujin]

Yes i understand thats why i think i put either he is a moron or has pretty bad genetics.

I have a huge build but im slightly overweight to, i dont quite get it cause im active and have a near right diet. I have great genetics for strength cause im like a 3rd generation power lifter.
oh by the way it also accounts that i have been lifting weight since the 7th grade at 14 and im 5"11 but it counters bad cause i have a little longer arms than normal.

[Ford Prefect]

so what does your weight training regimen look like?

[Merryprankster]

325 at 18 is a LOT

Where the hell did you guys go to high school/freshman year in college?

Maybe I just hung out in a different crowd or something. I suppose, when I look back, I was running with the athletes more than most, so my perspective is slightly skewed. I benched 295 at 19 @ 190 lbs, and I was definitely at the low end of the totem pole for the athletes I knew at my weight.

On the other hand, I outsquatted the daylights out of most of them....

[CD Lee]

Merry - I worked out with the band kids. Just kidding. :D

We had a few guys, five or six maybe that could press over 300, but all these guys were big like you. I, on the other hand, weighed only 147 and pressed 270. Hey, to me, that was a ton of weight. Of course, I was doing only 2 reps per set, only a couple of sets.

So even after high school and college, I still don't see many guys pushing up 300 + lbs on the bench press. It just seems to me that if only a small portion of the population works out regularly, and only a small percentage of those can push up 250-300 on a bench, then that is pretty strong as a person. All I am saying is it takes a good amount of strength to push those weights.

Hey, do you still workout? Did you ever get past the big 300?

[Merryprankster]

Nope. Never did make to the big 300. I probably could now. I filled out, and while my body weight was 190, I carried a slight bit more fat than I do now--not much, but it was that teenagey type fat. It was very hard for me to stay at 190. Normally, that was my on-season weight. Just trying to eat enough to get to 190 was a chore. When I went to CA after college, my weight was a natural 178 to 180. When I hit 23-24, I just filled out and got a lot thicker in the upper body and walk around at about 190.

Now, I could get up to a little over 200 if I worked out hard and ate a lot and concentrated on bench.

Seeing as I do a weight class sport however, I don't particularly want to gain weight.

300 is a lot--don't get me wrong. I think my perception was just skewed. I hung out and worked out with guys that were a lot bigger than me. I mean, throwing shot, discus and hammer at 190 lbs is being LIGHT. Way light.

FWIW, I think a 270 bench at 150 is fantastic, and I'm certainly not knocking it. I was just a little shocked at the emphasis on a lot. Now, tell me he benched 350, and I'd start thinking wow, that's a lot.

I don't even lift any more. I have only so many hours in a day, and there are two things more important than my strength--technique and cardio. Just through training, I at least maintain my current strength level, and I get more out of training my technique than I will out of lifting, right now. As my learning curve decreases, strength will become more important, and I will probably have to include it.

[CD Lee]

Hey thats cool info Merry.

Based on what you have said, you could get past 200 in no time I think. When I went back in January, like I said, I thought, "Oh no...back to nothing." I was shocked that 135 was too much to push up for one rep! But, it came back steadily. I thought it would stop sooner, but just kept going up pretty fast.

I have always wished I had gone ahead and done a little more powerlifting to get to 300 just to say I did it. But I wanted to do bodybuilding stuff. I have no genetics for that and wasted a lot of hours on it. But it did keep me healthy while younger. I gotta say, it feels really great to work out again with the weights.

Take care and good luck training.

[Kempo Guy]

Merry,

I don't necessarily think you would have to eat a ton etc. to get a 300lb bench at 190.

I say this because I myself have never concentrated on lifting weights, let alone bench press. This year I went on one 2-week PTP cycle and one modified "Bear" cycle for 2 weeks. At this point I had not lifted any serious weights in 5 years (my max then was 265 lbs), although I do a lot of bodyweight training and KB training. Anyway, by the end of my bear cycle my max was over 315lbs (and I probably could have gone a little heavier). FWIW, I did not eat a lot (a 2500 calories or less per day), but concentrated on three lifts during each cycle: DL, Bench and Sidepress.

Anyway, just thought I'd share...

Train hard!
KG

[Merryprankster]

Kenpo guy,

I think I wasn't clear. I was TRYING to gain weight for shot, discus and Hammer. In all these events, increased weight does two things for you:

1. It changes the axis of rotation of the system, bringing it closer to YOUR axis of rotation--this increases potential angular velocity which means increased linear velocity on release.

2. It increases momentum which, well, see above :)


I could definitely get stronger without gaining massive weight. I don't have the genetics for it. I actually TRIED to get fat once, when I was on a ship. We had a contest to see who could gain the most weight. I was putting away over 6,000 calories a day for two months and gained 3 pounds.

CD Lee, to clarify, because I just reread my post--my current bench is probably in the 215-230 range. MAYBE 240 on a really good day. I meant that, weight wise, I could probably get to 200 if I wanted too.

Man, I also wish I had done powerlifting--actually, O-lifting. I've the got the legs for it, but my arms are probably too long, LOL.

[Robinf]

Merry,

You sound like you have a wicked metabolism.

[Merryprankster]

Insanely fast. It's a struggle to eat enough to gain weight, when I want to. I have literally put down two large pizzas at a sitting. When I was eating to gain weight for Track, I was downing quarts of ice cream, mounds of peanut butter, eggs at breakfast, etc. It's just really hard for me to put on weight. In the grand scheme of things, I'm not complaining. At the time, it was a pain in my ass.

Makes it easy to cut weight though. Losing 15 lbs in 3 weeks isn't too hard for me. Ok, to be fair, it's 10 lbs, and then I lose 4 lbs of water weight overnight. But it's not a difficult thing for me to do and I don't have to drastically restrict my calories to do it.

My maximum lowest bodyweight is about 174. Any lower and my performance begins to suffer. I gas easier and recovery is slow.

After 195, I start to feel a bit sluggish. Anywhere from about 180-192 or so is pretty good. I personally believe I am at optimum at 185, but that's purely psychological. It takes little effort for me to get to 185 since I am at 189. But I have to pay attention to get to 179. Even though there is no difference in my performance, it just FEELS like less work.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
My maximum lowest bodyweight is about 174.
er.

um.

nevermind. anyhoo, what's your competitive weight, merryp?

[Robinf]

I have just the opposite problem. Gaining weight is no problem for me. Losing it is he!!

I know what you mean by feeling you're at your optimal at a certain weight. My lowest (I'm female and not quite 5'4") was 120--I felt ammaciated. My highest (since I lost 55 lbs of fat) was 140 a little more than a month ago. I was beginning to feel sluggish. I feel ok now at 135. Sparring is better for me because I'm not getting hurt like I was at 120.

[fa_jing]

Just out of gay curiosity, what were you guys putting up on the squat? :D Actually, I just like to hear people's stories, it helps me to get motivated. Just to be fair, I'll give me #'s first - back when I was in college, I lifted regularly for about 15 months. At 185 pounds bodyweight and 6'1", my best BP 1rm was 260 lbs. My best squat workout was:

1 x 15 @ 135
1 x 10 @ 185
4 x 5 @ 225
1 x 10 @ 185

Caveat: I didn't go all the way down to parallel.

I once did a triple with 245, too.


Like you guys, I've been out of weightlifting for a long time - about 7 years - but I'm strength training again and will get back to the weights in a few months. I'll probably try the Smolov squat routine or something.

[Merryprankster]

Generally, I compete wherever I'm at, but never above 189. The weight classes usually get bigger--15-20 lbs differences, vice 9 or 10, so why bother if all it takes is watching my water intake for one day?

Robin--good luck maintaining--that's the hard part!


In answer to the next question, I'm going to get a lot of "bull****s" on this, but my best squat ever, at 190 was 540, standard squat form, just past parallel then up.

Keep in mind I was training for throwing and wasn't just lifting like a normal in shape guy. I was training balls out triples, doubles and singles and explosive partials, including O-lifts, plyos and sprints. You haven't lived till you've fallen down the stairs because your legs just give. I doubt I could've done half that weight more than 10 times though, LOL. Curse of low rep, explosive training. Your endurance gets shot.

I would never do that again, I don't think. It's not worth it to me. Right now, I could do 315. But that's it. I'm assuming I haven't lost anything on my old "normal."

[Robinf]

540 for power is **** good. That shot put must have flown.

When I was working squat, I got up to 185 for 3X6. I'm working now on endurance--holding 100 for 4 sets of 18 seconds right now--working up to at least a minute for 4 sets. I find that my legs last a lot longer now in kung fu. The strength training worked great to get me into the low stances required by my style. Now, with the switched training, I'm starting to be able to hold those stances longer and can move through them rather than coming up and going into the next stance.

This resistance training thing has me all kinds of fascinated.

Merry,
Maintaining is a b!tch, but worth it. I don't know if I can get down to 130 and still maintain and build my strength and muscular endurance. I noticed as soon as I increased the volume of my resistance training, my personal weight increased. I don't want to lose strength.

[rubthebuddha]

just went to doctor yesterday for first time in eons. bugger spotted me at about 180 -- ten pounds lighter than the last time i was weighed on a good scale, and i know that i've added a bit of muscle in my legs (thanks to sevenstar for the intro to good mornings :p). for reference, i'm 5'9".

i'm estimating that i've lost about 15 lbs. of flub and gained five in legness. i'd like to repeat this again and get down to 170-175 right now, while adding a little bit more to my legs and chest. if i keep running, shouldn't be that hard. i'm just happy that i'm closer to my number goals than i thought i was. :)

[rubthebuddha]

merry,

since no one else has said it, i will.

BULL****!

there, i feel better now. not that i don't believe you, i just didn't want you to feel slighted by it not being said. :)

[CD Lee]

Merry, your a stud dude. Enough said.

I hate the squat with zeal. I once, built up to squat one rep parallel with 300, for no other reason than Boyer Coe the bodybuilder in the 80's said he did it at age 16. That sounded like a lot to me so I did it. I always kept the bar high on my traps, and it felt like it would slice throught my body. Hated it totally.

I don't squat at all these days. I just do the deadlift, and have been totally surprised at the leg workout you get. My thighs are parallel at the start of a deadlift, so my legs are hit big time after the two sets are done. I had no idea DL would have worked my thighs like that before or I would have done them a long time ago.

BTW, I am 5'9, 200 lbs. My fighting weight for a real sport fight is probably 155-160. I only say this because when I ran 10K races, I raced at 157. That was 8 years ago. I don't sport fight, but I should weight optimally for health more like 170.

[Merryprankster]

LOL at me being a stud! I've always just had strong legs. It's not nearly matched by my upper body strength--my upper back strength, in particular, is lousy. I've never been able to do more than 9 pull ups. And that took me ages!!!

I LOVE deads. Great exercise.

I want to make it clear that I am nowhere NEAR that strong anymore, and the amount of time and effort that I had to invest to get that way is far beyond anything that I would undertake right now, and possibly ever again. Ugh.

Still though, we had a yahoo (with terrible explosiveness, but incredible limit strength) who put up 315 on the incline bench as his beginning level. Just sick. A guy like that, who outweighed me by 30 lbs and was that much stronger should have been able to outthrow me in the shot by an assload. As it was, he could only manage to beat my best by about 6 ft. Certainly a significant difference, but not nearly on par with our differences in weight and strength. Bottom line--he was strong, but not explosive. He could only move 20 lbs more in the clean and jerk than I could.

Something to think about....