Why Diversty

[spyder]

Why the diversity in wing chun? Does it matter? Why?

Spyder

[t_niehoff]

Spyder,

From my perspective, WCK is a certain specific approach toward fighting (a fighting "philosophy", stategy and tactics, and tools) and a means to train that approach. However, this does not mean we all use that approach or strategies or tools the same way -- to be successful we must use the training to build on our own unique talents, strengths, etc. to develop our own WCK. Thus WCK is a systematic approach to cultivating within the individual his peculiar fighting 'style' -- his own WCK. You don't learn to use WCK in a fight, you use WCK to learn about yourself and how to become the best fighter you can be. This is the reason for the diversity among first-rate practitioners. (Just like top-notch western boxers -- Lewis and Tyson both have learned boxing but don't 'look alike', don't use the same tactics and tools the same way. They have each used boxing to develop their strengths. If you were to learn to box and tried to fight like either, you would not fully develop your potential as you would be mimicing a 'style' that best suited them.).

Unfortunately, we see so many WCK "instructors" teaching "their WCK" as if it were -- and some even claim it is! -- somehow the "ultimate fighting style"; the ultimate fighting style is the one that you have created that keeps you alive and victorious, and this changes every day, requiring continual revision and constant training. A good WCK teacher will help you to understand the underlying philosophy of WCK, show you the cohesive strategies based upon that philosophy, and help you develop the tactics and tools which best fit within your needs and capabilities. A good teacher will remind you that your job is to develop your own unique fighting style -- your own WCK. A good teacher also reminds us that we must not become so arrogant to think our way is THE way (thinking that our WCK is "the" WCK).

Our WCK is all we ever know. But a good teacher does not impose his WCK as "the" WCK, and thus begin to teach problematic dogma; he must use his WCK, his fighting style, as a means to solicit and nuture within others their own idiosyncratic talents and unique fighting style, their WCK. (Tyson will only ever know his boxing but to be a good boxing coach he must not impose his 'style' on others but must let them develop their own 'style' within the umbrella of boxing.).

In sum, good WCK is based on the individual and thus must be diverse.

Terence

[reneritchie]

Ever play "Plinko"? Drop a metal ball through a pattern of plastic spikes and while most of the balls with land around the center, a few will go off to the sides, and each will take its own unique path due to minute differences in initial conditions and of conditions encountered over time.

In other words, its only natural and its healthy.

[WCis4me]

Hi Terence,
I really enjoyed and agreed with your post. I just had some confusion and disagreement over one part. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.
Terence wrote:

You don't learn to use WCK in a fight, you use WCK to learn about yourself and how to become the best fighter you can be.
I completely agree that WC definitely becomes a road of self awareness. However, aren't the forms/techniques of WC a BIG part of what we use in a fight and how we can be more successful in the combative situation. Thus learning to use WC in a fight as well as for personal growth?
Why I say this is, forms/techniques/applications is what we learn to more effectively and efficiently block, strike, use power and force, position our bodies with the best root, etc.
My feeling is that we are taught to use these things to ultimately and ideally prevail in a combative situation that we wouldn't have been able to before training in WC. Of course I still completely agree that the personal growth is important, but without the fighting tools we are taught then we most likely won't prevail in the combative situation. I am sure that there are many people out there that have the fighting tools and very little personal growth that have been very successful in fights. Of course this is all just IMHO.

As for the questions posed for this thread, I agree completely with Terence and RR as to why WC has such diversity, and they explained it far better than I could.

Vicky

[Phenix]

Originally posted by spyder
Why the diversity in wing chun? Does it matter? Why?

Spyder


Otherwise, it will become a Tribal system with the Chief's word is the word of GOD that over write the law of nature.

Nature diversify. thus, it is nature to diversify in wing chung

[t_niehoff]

WCis4Me wrote:

I completely agree that WC definitely becomes a road of self awareness. WC4

IMO it's more than that -- it is becoming "better", not just being aware. TN

However, aren't the forms/techniques of WC a BIG part of what we use in a fight and how we can be more successful in the combative situation. Thus learning to use WC in a fight as well as for personal growth? WC4

The "techniques" of WCK are, for me, a means not an end. Of course we have tools (techniques, mechanics, etc.) that we combine with strategies and tactics to implement our approach (WCK). But the tools or techniques aren't what work in a fight -- it is we that work in a fight. Neither the sweep or the tan sao or the punch works by itself or in-and-of-itself; it is we and what we bring -- our skill, knowledge, experience, talent, attitude, etc. -- that make it work. The "better" we are, the better our tools or techniques work. IOWs, we make the techniques work, the techniques don't make us work. It is the man that makes the art, not the art that makes the man (or woman!). TN

Terence

[TjD]

the problem lies in the way WC is taught. it's not like other systems where many applications and static drills are taught.

a good WC sifu points his finger at the moon, showing you the way. everyone is different and takes different paths, and the moon is always just out of reach.

since everyone is different, everyone has a different ideas about what that moon is and how to get there. different things work for different people, hence the diversity in WC. if you show me two people whose WC is exactly alike, it probably isn't WC.

[WCis4me]

Terence,
Thank you for elaborating on your reply and sharing your thoughts on the subject with me.
Vicky

[spyder]

Then why do we complain when things are different from us?

Spyder

[WCis4me]

Good point about why do we complain spyder. I think it is because when someone believes something to be the truth and if they find that it isn't (at the very least how they interpreted it)then that would be more than they could accept. Most people find being blatently lied too offensive (in any life situation), and become defensive, and try to reason and prove their point (whether it is constructively or not) to save pain, embarrassment etc.
Most of the complaints are not that the act or person in itself is different or antagonizing, but more about the politics/history of how they got there.
I guess it is kind of like someone being adopted (best analagy I can come up with at this moment), they think they know who their parents/family/history are and then find out it was a lie (or at the very least how they perceived their own truth to it). Even though the people who raised the child are, in all essence, its parents, the child often feels betrayed and disconnected from them, and seeks out what they think they are missing (same thing happens in bitter divorces). When they do find their missing link (if ever), frequently it wasn't the ideal they had pictured and the resentment begins another cycle. It is a very tramatic thing, for everyone involved. Through patience, acceptance, openness and understanding, it usually can have a successful resolution.

Knowing our history is what we do to get a 'sense of self'. Who I am and what I am about etc. If we feel that our sense of self has been betrayed, or manipulated then it rocks how we feel about ourselves. To avoid this we set off in some divine life mission to find the truth (whether we are prepared to accept it or not in most cases).

Two sayings in life became so for a reason.......they are:
'Ignorance is bliss' and 'misery loves company'.

Everyone percieves their own truths differently and for a multitude of varying reasons. It is only those who have confidence in their 'sense of self' that can ask difficult questions and be fully prepared they may not contain the answers they had hoped for, make a decision regarding them, aknowledge there is a difference in the views on 'truth' and move on, wiser, but emotionally intact.

It is a lot like varying cultures, just because we follow our own way, doesn't make the other way wrong. Just different. It is in being able to explore those differences and gain valuable knowledge from them, without losing the sense of themselves, that true personal growth happens. Kind of like if someone says their way of performing a bong sau is superior, you try it and you don't find it to be so, you should be happy about that, it validated you and that you are doing the best bong sau for YOU, not angry because they think differently from you. Maybe they tried your way and it didn't work for them. Who cares, at least you both got to try something different and found out that you are still doing something that makes sense to you. Why not say 'cool, thanks for giving me the opportunity to try something that might have worked better for me, unfortunately I still have my preference but lets continue to share notes and grow from this.' Or if you find out that theirs is better FOR YOU then why get defensive? Why not just say....cool my WC just improved, thank you for helping me in that area. Worst of all why waste the opportunity to grow in your WC or whatever by disregarding their suggestion completely.
Last time I checked I didn't know everything (don't let my family in on this), and neither does anyone else I know. So how can any of us be SO SURE that we are right, there is a very good chance that we might have missed one peice of a puzzle or have it misconstrued at the very least. The only way we can find out is opening ourselves up to other ideas.
A really good example (IMO) is how many people on this forum have been in other MA styles/ lineages or even Sifu's in other styles/lineages, and then found 'something better'. Did they not think what they were doing at the time was the 'best'? Was it not until they were open to suggestion that they found something that worked for them 'better'. Sure it has happened, there are TONS of people on this forum that tried one way and believed in it WHOLE heartedly then switched to another style/ lineage and believe in it WHOLE heartedly. It is the 'truth' as they perceive it and it is what is working for them. Who are the rest of us to judge them, we can only be experts on ourselves.
This is all simply IMHO of course, and simply how I strive to live my life (not always successful but I do try).
Best regards to all,
Vicky

[Grabula]

Spyder, I am with reneritchie on this. It's natural for humans to diversify and follow their own path. I think to a certain extant, as with all things variation is healthy, sort of like natural selection in nature.
I think we fight about who is right or wrong because of ego. Some people want to be at the top and some want to be acknowledge as having the "real deal". The problem is that most of these people don't realise it isn't really the art but the person. A good example of this is a guy who came across a freind and I sparring. He wants to spar, throws on the gloves and starts windmilling like crazy! It worked pretty well surprisingly!

[burnsypoo]

I think too a lot of people are coming at a discussion from different angles. Some people are obviously talking from an application focus, others from a training/improvement perspective, and others from a teaching point of view. Getting on the same wavelength as other people when you're discussing things is half the battle.
(yo joe!)

[spyder]

If you beleive some color is red for your whole life, then some one shows you another color and argues it is red. Who is right? If both colors are in the red hue, then both may be correct but both may not accept the others answer. There is no true red, but a spectrum of acceptable values. Maybe wing chun is more like this than it is mathmatics were there is only one absolute answer.

spyder

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by spyder
If you beleive some color is red for your whole life, then some one shows you another color and argues it is red. Who is right? If both colors are in the red hue, then both may be correct but both may not accept the others answer. There is no true red, but a spectrum of acceptable values. Maybe wing chun is more like this than it is mathmatics were there is only one absolute answer.

spyder
Great analagy, and at much simpler than mine, thank you.

Regards,
Vicky