Chan, natural, ...Siu Lien Tau, Chi Sau, Concentration.... how are they become one?

[Phenix]

As title,


I don't belive in Shao Lin or fomular or some looks wise but empty saying from Dao de ching..... or some Cantonese Pronouciation term is the answer of these all.

There should be something tangible and achiveable.

what is your view? how far do you willing to go ?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix
As title,


I don't belive in Shao Lin or fomular or some looks wise but empty saying from Dao de ching..... or some Cantonese Pronouciation term is the answer of these all.

There should be something tangible and achiveable.

what is your view? how far do you willing to go ?
Hi Phenix,

You're asking quite a lot from us. :D I may be way off base, but FWIW, here's my two cents, less tax. :)

I'm not a Buddhist, and don't play one on the web, but clearly there is a connection between Chan, meditation, Sil Lim Tao as quigong, and the mental state in which we seek the "pure" continuum of mind and body. Does our study of Chan or Wing Chun promote/enable us to control what we do and our reactions to stimuli?

In my Wing Chun, we seek to be entirely relaxed and to learn to be natural in our bodies, returning to the state where thought and action are one. The main problem with advancing in Wing Chun for me and many, especially Western men, seems to be in overcoming one's lifetime of bad habits and mental associations. For example, knowing and experiencing the difference between feeling powerful and being powerful, as exhibited and exemplified by Yip Man, a small, not powerful appearing person.

Today in the news was a story about the connection to health and happiness, associated with the left-prefrontal lobe brain development in Buddhists. If the sound/body connection that Andrew Weil et al talk about in "Sound Body, Sound Mind" (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2VWR2EIJ3O&isbn=0965732452&itm=1) is correct, then there is a transmissible method of teaching this state.

In practical terms, this leads to control of oneself in fighting or life. Sil Lim Tao, for me, is a meditation that seems to cultivate a mind/body accord.

Just some late night rambles.

Regards,

[kj]

Nice rambles.
- kj

[Phenix]

Hi John,

There are two core components in mental cultivation which connecting Chan, meditation,Yee, Nature, Human, SLT, Chi Sau, ..... everyday living.

Once that two core components are known.
The rest will naturally reveal. one can even notice it while driving a car or doing a chi sau or taking an cooking class.



IMHO, some Chinese Martial art system, sometimes, alots of time , is a TRIBAL organization where the the Chief's word is the "nature" or THE LAW of universe.

Thus, For some Chief of the TRIBE, the term Shao Lin or Wu Dang are a Mantra to get to GOD. And the Mantra is not alow to be asked or question because it is the Chief's word. Or else one is put into against the GOD position.


IMHO,
If WCK has to progress then the first paradigm shift is shift from a Tribal system to a nature based self actualization system.

Or may be WCK originally is not a tribal system but some make it a tribal system which is also a paradigm shift but a reverse one.


If the WCK ancestors has a say of " LEarning has no junior or senior, He who master the art is the teacher". That is the indication of WCK is not a tribal system. right? IMHO

[yylee]

while doing SNT, there is nobody around to give you distraction (e.g. a touch on the bridge). So you just train and train and train, sometimes not knowing if the cultivation path is correct or not.

Chi Sau gives the structure a lot of distractions that cannot be felt in solo SNT traning. Giving SNT training a testing ground. In addition to distractions to the bridge, the structure, the mind is being disturbed. Ego comes into the picture as the ChiSau partner is imposing more forces on you. And the poor you becomes busy adjusting this and that, re-aligning and shifting body if need be. Hoping that the opponent won't gain any more ground. Eventually the mind concentraton is gone, and the body becomes tense.

But the lession from Chi Sau is to learn how to deal with this distraction, learn to let go and find a nature path to handle pressure. Attempting to perfect every instance of Tan Bong Fook minute by minute will only burden the mind more and more. Perhaps Tan/Bong/Fook should be experienced and dissolved into nothingness. Don't hold the concept of Tan/Bong/Fook in the mind, otherwise the mind will be trapped by them.

Easy said then done...

Me not a religious person, so no idea on the Chan aspect of this....

[yuanfen]

Not to worry-- religion has always hovered at the edges of science.

Even first rate scientists can be quite strange at the peripheries of their achievements.

Example- Newton's alchemy phantasies-- about turning things into gold.

[KPM]

It seems to me that the common thread that unites all the topics Hendrik has listed is one thing.....focused awareness.

Keith

[Phenix]

Originally posted by KPM
It seems to me that the common thread that unites all the topics Hendrik has listed is one thing.....focused awareness.

Keith


Should we all talk about chan, Tahn..... or cut everything go direct into common term awareness, concentration..... and lots and lots still waiting for us to discover or rediscover..

Focused awareness?
Try to focus the awareness and one will lost the awareness. or become me me me.... may be the reason of all tense while doing SLT and chisau is because following Bruce Lee's advise of TOTAL CONCENTRATION? Try it see is that the case. :D

let go the focus and one will also let go the "self". or back to natural. but is that correct? :D

So look for the moon and one stuck at the finger because of focus. but aware of the sky and lost both the moon and finger. So what is what. where is the moon? hahahaha.

they call this chan koan --- to not let one has the chance to land on either side. All Damo's chan followers has to pass through this gate of no door. hahaha

Where is the space, time..... me... if one can't land on either side? hahahaha


so how to use those mental tools in SLT, Chi Sau, .... and daily life?:D

[anerlich]

IMHO, some Chinese Martial art system, sometimes, alots of time , is a TRIBAL organization where the the Chief's word is the "nature" or THE LAW of universe.

Thus, For some Chief of the TRIBE, the term Shao Lin or Wu Dang are a Mantra to get to GOD. And the Mantra is not alow to be asked or question because it is the Chief's word. Or else one is put into against the GOD position.


IMHO,
If WCK has to progress then the first paradigm shift is shift from a Tribal system to a nature based self actualization system.


Without (proper) tribal values, shifting to "a nature based self actualization system", whatever that means, is to risk following a
path of isolation, narcissism, and ego.

tribal values should support personal values, including self-actualization, and the reverse shuold be true as well. The "Chiefs" you are talking about have subordinated the real good of the tribe, and the individuals therein, for their own selfish personal vision, robbing the other members of the tribe opportunities for discovery and growth, with which to contribute to the welfare of the tribe as a whole.

If your school has no sort of tribal ethos, I'm glad I'm elsewhere.

If I said I thought Ch'an was just another load of mental crap treated with unwarranted reverence to be dispensed with so one can train and live effectively, would that annoy everybody? What was that saying, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him?"

Some trumpet their discipleship on the web, when their own conduct is the best advertisement for taking a different path.

An MA "philosophy" worthy of consideration IMO can be found at Matt Thornton's site, www.straightblastgym.com. And he's a JKD guy :D

[sleestack]

HS "Attempting to perfect every instance of Tan Bong Fook minute by minute will only burden the mind more and more. Perhaps Tan/ Bong/ Fook should be experience and dissolved into nothingness. Don't hold the concept of Tan/ Bong/ Fook in the mind, otherwise the mind will be trapped by them."

--very true and well put.
This is the state of "no mind", not focused awareness.

Troy

[ZIM]

Try to focus the awareness and one will lost the awareness. or become me me me.... may be the reason of all tense while doing SLT and chisau is because following Bruce Lee's advise of TOTAL CONCENTRATION? Try it see is that the case.

----this is the path to kensho, but it might get you a punch in the face. ;) So who exactly is being aware? can you be aware of yourself being aware? etc..-----

let go the focus and one will also let go the "self". or back to natural. but is that correct?

So look for the moon and one stuck at the finger because of focus. but aware of the sky and lost both the moon and finger. So what is what. where is the moon? hahahaha.

they call this chan koan --- to not let one has the chance to land on either side. All Damo's chan followers has to pass through this gate of no door. hahaha

Where is the space, time..... me... if one can't land on either side? hahahaha

-----"without a stone to stand on, not a tile above your head" :)

so how to use those mental tools in SLT, Chi Sau, .... and daily life?

---if a fist or limb can't occupy the same space that yours does, then it follows that if you can more truly/naturally/fully become your own Being [not self], then you progress in this instance...
Neat-o!


Without (proper) tribal values, shifting to "a nature based self actualization system", whatever that means, is to risk following a path of isolation, narcissism, and ego. Depends on what you are underneath it all. Buddhism is unlike Xianity in that it trusts that values will follow from spiritual realization, not the other way around.

Ok, going away now...;)

[yylee]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Not to worry-- religion has always hovered at the edges of science.

Even first rate scientists can be quite strange at the peripheries of their achievements.

Example- Newton's alchemy phantasies-- about turning things into gold.


Joy, I thought watching Star Trek Next Gen is religious enough for me :) :)

[Phenix]

http://www.mrdowling.com/602-maslow.html
http://www.corptools.com/models/personcon.htm
http://www.hendricks.com/store/breathe2.asp?dept_id=14
http://www.avatarepc.com/html/whatis.html
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/wei1int-1


Link all together with SLT , Chi Sau,...... and see what it comes out.

We live in 2003 not 1850...
and don't have to the follow the Chief from TaiPing.
It is not a philosophy but about how to live fully and spontaneously and naturally in all situation and condition.....


The monastic label and the custom or tradition of Shao Lin will not apply in the era of Matrix.

It is a different ERA. A 1850 will never be able to understand what is a GAMEBOY. A 2003 kid will never understand to live without computer in 1850. We need the language of this era, using the experience of the people in this era, to explain what is reality.

Otherwise, we will not understand.


---------------------------------------
.. with the thought pattern of 2000, technology of 2000, using High tech of 2000, and with the core of as old as the begining of the cosmos... ---- the fifth episode , Return to the limitless

[Phenix]

---if a fist or limb can't occupy the same space that yours does, then it follows that if you can more truly/naturally/fully become your own Being [not self], then you progress in this instance...


Water just flow. it doesn't think about flow or progressing.....

[Phenix]

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Without (proper) tribal values, shifting to "a nature based self actualization system", whatever that means, is to risk following a path of isolation, narcissism, and ego.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May be it is the way around?

Lao Tze told the chinese to learn from Heaven and Natural.
The Chinese again and again produce Tribal Chief --- emperor-- and dictators. From the first emperor of Ching who force building the great war to The Chief of Taiping.... to MAo Tze-Dong to who ever will emerge later...
It is all about EGO and Playing GOD.

In the contrary,
The people out side the Country of Central, Somehow follow the Lao Tze better. and they have the democratic, and they have the humanistic, and they have the ..... self-actualization systematic philosophy.... and ...high tech.... and free speech.... and universities....

Who keep living? who dies away? Lao Tze is right.:D

[anerlich]

I hope no one mistakes your stream of conciousness musings for historical fact.

You mistake a heirarchical system of government for what a tribe or clan really provides to humanity.

The ability to quote texts and scriptures != real understanding or enlightenment.

Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, Lao Tzu a Taoist, Mahommed a Muslim or Jesus a Christian.

You think you're seeing the moon ... but maybe you're just sucking the finger.



May be it is the way around?

And just as likely not.

[Phenix]

"You mistake a heirarchical system of government for what a tribe or clan really provides to humanity."


why do you think people today like to live in a democratic place instead of in a tribe or clan? ---HS




"The ability to quote texts and scriptures != real understanding or enlightenment.

Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, Lao Tzu a Taoist, Mahommed a Muslim or Jesus a Christian."

That is the reason why this post is begin.
And don't alots of people doing the reverse?

A Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, But a WCK founder has to be From Shao Lin or Chan or Everlasting Hall? ---HS



"You think you're seeing the moon ... but maybe you're just sucking the finger."---HS

In Australia it is Fall now I belive. In silicon valley it is Summer. I can accept both are facts. So, it is about the nature and location. Not about Australia and Silicon Valley is the center of the universe. IF there is a Chief in Sillicon Valley, He might said the whole world should be and must be Summer.
If There is a Chief in Australia, he might said the whole world should be and must be Fall.


Thus, Some chief call it Tan and Some call it Tahn...... and they claim to be the truth.


Too complicated,
it is a motion of flip over ,or uncover just like when one flip over the cover of the WOK.
Take away what the Chief said Tan or Tahn....and flip over to uncover the cover of the Wok and ready for dinner.

Try it in the kitchen, that is the best way to learn Tan or Tahn... opsss the flip over uncover hand. Don't need Lao Tze or Chan or Shao Lin... hahhaha

[reneritchie]

Anerlich has achieved the sudden enlightenment of correctness.