Chen Chin Na

[wiz cool c]

How do chen stylist practice chin na? Do they do it in a two man routine, do they do it in randori like in judo,is it dune in push hands?

[chen zhen]

In push hands, in application training, and in two-man routines, like most other tai chi.
don't know what randori is.:)

[wiz cool c]

what are the names of the two man routines in chen tai chi?

[kungfu cowboy]

Howard and Gus.

[chen zhen]

I don't know the Chen style two-man routines, I studied Yang style, and I'm talking from that styles perspective:)

[Ron Panunto]

Chen Zhen,

Why would you answer an inquiry about Chen style Chin na if you are a Yang stylist?

There are no two person routines equivalent to the Yang San Shou routine in Chen style, however, Chen does have five different methods of push hands (tui shou) and most of the chin na is practiced in these drills. Chin na is also practiced in application drills.

Ron Panunto

[chen zhen]

I just assumed there where two-man routines equivelant of Yang style's in Chen.
sorry, if I was wrong.:)

[bob10]

They haven't had a chance to invent a new old two man set yet ;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by bob10
They haven't had a chance to invent a new old two man set yet ;)

And I guess their long form doesn't exist either.

;) :D

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The Yang two person form that is known as the "88" was created in the late 1930's by Chen Weiming and Dong Yingjie. There is no Chen equivalent, as has been noted above.

[Laughing Cow]

Kevin.

While the 88 is fairly new, I guess it replaced or supplemented another existing form of 2-man practice.

There are so many different forms of Yang TCC out there and those tend to differ quiet a bit in training methods.

Problem is most people only know a small selection of what an actual style contains.

In Yang's case it is YCF variant in Chen it is CFK variant.

Example:
Not many people are aware that there is 196 Form in Chen TJQ besides the commonly taught Yi Lu & Er Lu forms. AFAIK those 3 forms are not the only unarmed forms either some of the supposedly "lost" forms are still taught to a select few.

[mr.wing]

LC


Really lost forms???

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by mr.wing
LC
Really lost forms???

According to source there were 5 forms taught in Chen Village in the old days (Chen Wang Ting "created" them), but since today only 2 forms appear to be taught most people think that the other 3 forms were lost.


The number of routines practiced within Small Frame system is not really clear. Ms. Chen Peiju said that before Taijiquan was created by Cheng Wangting, Chen clan practiced Long Fist Boxing in 108 Postures (Yi Bai Ling Ba Shi Chang Quan) that they brought from Shanxi. Chen Wangting created five routines of Taijiquan. Nowadays mainly First Set and Second Set are practiced. This is also "official" version that can be found in books on Small Frame (including recently published - one by Chen Liqing - famous Chen style Taijiquan expert living in Xi'an - and one by Fan Chunlei - Chen Liqing's grand-disciple from Hangzhou). However other sources - including articles in Chinese martial arts magazines - indicate that apart from Yi Lu and Er Lu other Taijiquan routines have been preserved within Small Frame system. I had a chance to talk to disciples of Mr. Chen Boxiang (Chen Kezhong's disciple) from Pingdingshan as well as Mr. Shi Lei (Chen Kedi's disciple) from Kaifeng and they all confirmed other routines are also in Xiao Jia's curriculum.

Both my Sifu and more advanced students also acknowledge that there are more forms than the Yi Lu & Er Lu practised in our Chen style.

I know of one practicioner that was recently taught the first sections of the 196 form.

All I am saying is tht many people say style X does not contain set method or similar when there is more to the systems than is being advertised or known by non-practicioners.

Cheers.

[mr.wing]

Well that is one way to charge more money.

Why would there be a need to have a 196 movement form?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by mr.wing
Well that is one way to charge more money.


I doubt that my Sifu will get rich of our current fees.



Why would there be a need to have a 196 movement form?

From what I heard the Chen development went as follows:
196 form --> Xiao Jia --> Lao Da Jia

As for need, maybe not a need but I guess you could gain a deeper understanding of the style and art.

Cheers.

[Ron Panunto]

Mr. Wing posted: "Why would there be a need for a 196 form". Why is there a need for any form? Chen Wang-Ting developed it for his own reasons. Other than that there is no "need" for it or any other form.

As for the 196 form that LC refers to it is more often referred to as the Chen 108 or Longfist Form. And LC is right in that this form and the other 4 originally devised by CWT are not extinct, they are simply not yet readilly available outside Chen Village.

One of my teachers, Mao Fu Rong new all of the 5 original forms, and my present teacher is now learning the Chen 108 from Chen Yang Fu. He tells me that YCF will have a VCD available on this form later this year.

The Yang 88 San Shou form did not replace an older 2-person form. There is no tradition of 2-person forms in taiji other than the short push hand and da lu patterns.

Ron Panunto

[RAF]

Ron:

Could you post and let us know when the VCD will be available? It would really be greatly appreciated. Also do you know if Chen Zheng Lei's VCD is available on pole shaking?

Thanks.

Regards,

Bob

[Ron Panunto]

Sure Bob, I'll let you know when the Chen 108 Longfist VCD is available, and yes, Chen Zhenglei's VCD on the Chen 13 long pole form has been available now for about 6 months. I learned this form directly from CZL and the material shown on the VCD is identical to what he taught me.

Ron Panunto

[RAF]

Thanks, Ron.

I saw the long pole exercise/form on Herb Richie's site and in the last issue of the Internal Arts Magazine. In baji we don't have a long pole form---everything is single posture or moving. I think that form that Chen Zheng Lei taught is really impressive and worth learning as part of basic training. I am glad that it has come out.

Is it possible that Yang Lu Chan modified the Chen longfist form to create Yang taijiquan? Altough its not terribly important, I have seen about 32 movements of the Taizuquan longfist taught in Liu's family in the Hebei Province and it seems as feasible as any other theory of Yang's development (18 years in the Chen Village he surely must have been exposed to the longfist form and 5 short forms). In fact it might be easier to understand how Yang Lu Chan developed his personalization of taiji after the public (me included) has seen all 5 forms and the longfist form.

Anyway, I'll stop and look forward to seeing the VCD.

Later.

[Ron Panunto]

RAF, from what I have been able to gather the Yang 108 long form is pretty much a simplification of the Chen first routine (Lao jia). I wouldn't get hung up on the number of postures i.e., Chen only counts 72, because it depends on whether you count repetitions or how many postures you group together under one name.

I have seen the Chen 108 and Chang Tzu Tai Chuan and they do not resemble Yang's taiji. However, you can almost due a one to one comparison of the Yang long form and the first Chen routine. Give it a try. The similarities are more than the differences, and too much to be coincidence. As I said it is simplified and softened so the fajing movements like Buddah's Attendant Warrior Pounds the Mortar have been deleted along with the double jump kick and others have been modified, like Chen's Lazy About Tying Coat is Yang's Ward off, etc, but a good majority of the postures like Single Whip, Step back to Repulse Monkey, Fist under Elbow, and most of the kicks are still intact from the Chen first routine.

Ron

[Walter Joyce]

fwiw, thats Herb Rich, a nice guy as well as a great source of knowledge.

[Ron Panunto]

RAF,

Chen Yongfu released the VCD on the Chen 108 longfist form today. It is in instructional format. CYF also released other VCD's on the Chen small frame system.

They are all available from Jarek Szymanski. They have not been posted on his website yet but if you e-mail him he will provide a detailed description, cost and ordering info. His e-mail address is: yaleike@hotmail.com

Ron Panunto

[RAF]

Thanks Ron.

I still haven't given up on a trip to Beijing this summer and may purchase them at that time. I'll e-mail Jarek.

Later.

[Muppet]

For anyone familiar with both Hsing I and Yang taiji, can the Yang style's single-whip be accurately viewed as using heng-chuan (earth fist) energy?

The basic heng chuan's circle (or more accurately in this case, spiral) is sort of like moving the arms in a cone, with the front hand acting as the strike and the rear hand as the defense, hooking and deflecting blows.

Also, how does Yang and Chen's single whip compare in application? Are they one and the same? The forms look noticeably different, though the relationship is obvious.

[Ron Panunto]

Muppet,

I would not have too much of a problem equating xingyi's heng chuan with taiji's single whip.

Single whip is typically used by combing several of taiji 13 basic jins: first ward-off to make contact with the incoming punch, then roll-back to let the punch slide by your face, then step forward into the opponents space to deliver a shulder stoke to unbalance him and then finally split to atack by bending him backwards over your thigh. Yang and Chen are similar in application, and similar in the jins used in that Yang came from Chen. Sometimes Yang will use a more "linear" force where Chen will use a more complex "spiral" force.

Heng chuan is crossing fist which is equivalent to splitting in taiji. The application could be similar, i.e., intercept and deflect the punch with the right hand, step into the opponents space and the cross (or split) with the left hand and bend him backwards over your thigh.

Of course, there are lots of applications for both single whip and heng chuan, but you can see the similarities in this particular application against a right cross. Most martial arts all use the same energies, they are just categorized differently.

Ron Panunto

[GeneChing]

Chen Taijiquan Qinna
Discerning Principles for Practical Learning
By Emilio Alpanseque

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