Elbow in Centerline

[marcelino31]

I have heard the saying "Keep your elbow to the centerline"

When doing SLT it is claimed that when doing FOOK SAO the elbow should get to the centerline as much as possible; same applies to the tan sao. Other times The elbow moves away from the center. Example , in SLT, when perform double biu sao, the double jut sao motions have elbow moving away from the centerline. Also when applying lop sao the elbow appears to move away from the centerline.

Let us discuss this concept about what it really means to have the elbow on the centerline.

[Alpha Dog]

That is what they say. I personally can't do it (chest too large and I am not huge) without blowing the rest of my structure. I know guys much larger who couldn't do it at all and I have great confidence in their WC.

Incidently, the effort to keep elbows in the center might explain all the hunched shoulders you see, and curved spines. The things people will do to follow a rule are amazing!

[marcelino31]

Hello Alpha Dog,

Very true!

I rarely try to force my elbow to the center i think the real meaning is to cover your center and i think that it's more important to have your hands and forearm covering your centerline than your elbow. When punching for example i never put my elbow in the center. My fist is in the center but my elbow thrusts forward aligned with my nipple line. If you extend both your arms straight out in front of you at shoulder height with your fingers vertical to the ground a triangle structure is formed. With this alignment your elbows are on the nipple lines.

[reneritchie]

It's an ideal (though its not "on" the centerline). Sow Hung is part of it, but not hunchback. The closer you can come to the ideal, the easier certain things will be, the further from it, the more others will have to compensate. At the end, application is a combination of different elements, so less of one is not the end of the world.

BTW- AD, when did you catch this recent bout of correctness?

[marcelino31]

Ok I heard the idea of elbow to centerline maybe to protect your centerline but why is this idea even necessary with the elbow?

When assuming a bi jong fighting stance hands -- mun sao and wu sao -- are on the centerline but elbows are not. Now the idea of immovable elbow meaning to focus on keeping the elbow down and within a certain distance from the body i can see the point of.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by reneritchie
BTW- AD, when did you catch this recent bout of correctness?

All the Alberta beef I can eat!

What do you mean "correctness"?

[yuanfen]

"Keep your elbow to the centerline"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
broken telephone!

[Marky]

So long as you have immovable elbows, I would imagine that you're good to go.

[marcelino31]

I have seen tan sao where elbow is not on centerline and others that are how does this relate to centerline elbow theory.

When doing tan sao should your elbow strive to be on center or align itself with the nipple line?

[Spark]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
The things people will do to follow a rule are amazing!

Or what they believe to be the rule ;)

Yuanfen says:

broken telephone!

Word to that!

[kj]

Originally posted by marcelino31
I have seen tan sao where elbow is not on centerline and others that are how does this relate to centerline elbow theory.


Can you elaborate on this "centerline elbow theory?"


When doing tan sao should your elbow strive to be on center or align itself with the nipple line?

What benefit is it to have your elbow directly on the centerline (or aligned in any other plane for that matter) if your body is distorted or tensed to accomplish it? Guidelines only make sense in context, and finding one's own optimal balance is key, IMHO.

FWIW, while we do concern ourselves greatly with elbow position, it is relative positioning which is most important. Elbow is in, not "forced" to the center but rather "just enough" based on the individual’s build, flexibility, and ability to remain relaxed. The elbow is down without the slightest hint of "flying out,” sunken (heavy) resulting from body posture, and with forward intent (manifested in varying degrees). Nominal distance is 1 fist from the rib cage, though this will obviously vary in use. These elements are far more important, IMHO, than trying to place the elbow directly on center, which will likely do more harm than good against a skilled partner/opponent.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grabula]

sometimes "forcing" is necessary in the beginning to get proper relaxed form later on.

[reneritchie]

WCK is Kung-Fu, or effort (skill over time) and part of that effort is the training to achieve as close to the ideal positions as possible. They may not be easy, but the sets like SLT themselves have the Lien Gung (training work) built in to help us achieve them. Some people might have a hard time keeping their butt from sticking out when they assume a horse, others may have ankle flexibility issues, some shoulder tension, others flying elbows. They can either work on it, through the system, or work around it, through the system (hopefully not at the expense of the system though some might do that as well). Depends what's just difficult and what's impossible and how much effort or kung-fu, we're willing to put in, and how serious or worthwhile we feel the goal.

In the end, 90% of the time you won't face someone with the technical skill to demand you be as perfect as possible with each and every ideal. If that's okay, and you can avoid the other 10%, you'll be just fine.

[kj]

Originally posted by Grabula
sometimes "forcing" is necessary in the beginning to get proper relaxed form later on.

I can accept that provided a) it is working "just enough" for increased flexibility and improvement, and not "over forced," and b) it is understood to be a compromise albeit for a greater good in the longer term.

"Just enough" is a big key, IMHO. Learn to train in tension, and you'll easily and naturally learn to be tense. I would not agree with forcing at all costs even for the purpose of gaining position. There are many fine lines, and luckily I enjoy picking nits, LOL.

Of course others MMV.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by kj


Can you elaborate on this "centerline elbow theory?"

What benefit is it to have your elbow directly on the centerline (or aligned in any other plane for that matter) if your body is distorted or tensed to accomplish it? Guidelines only make sense in context, and finding one's own optimal balance is key, IMHO.

FWIW, while we do concern ourselves greatly with elbow position, it is relative positioning which is most important. Elbow is in, not "forced" to the center but rather "just enough" based on the individual’s build, flexibility, and ability to remain relaxed. The elbow is down without the slightest hint of "flying out,” sunken (heavy) resulting from body posture, and with forward intent (manifested in varying degrees). Nominal distance is 1 fist from the rib cage, though this will obviously vary in use. These elements are far more important, IMHO, than trying to place the elbow directly on center, which will likely do more harm than good against a skilled partner/opponent.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

One system of WC I trained in advocated bringing the elbow to the centerline as much as possible so as to cover your center and to have all your techniques push out from the elbow located on the centerline. This was to be the ideal position for the elbow, assuming you could get it there. The example was given of the tan sao to defend against a round punch where the elbow should be dead on center. But against a straight punch the tan sao elbow would be off center...What are the pros and cons to this?

[Grabula]

kj, I can go with your "just enough" idea, reasonable in just about any situation.

[kj]

Originally posted by marcelino31


One system of WC I trained in advocated bringing the elbow to the centerline as much as possible so as to cover your center and to have all your techniques push out from the elbow located on the centerline. This was to be the ideal position for the elbow, assuming you could get it there.

I hear you. I stand by my earlier comments and caveats wrt this.

Besides, if you had one elbow perfectly on center, and needed to get the other on center too, then what would you do? :D


The example was given of the tan sao to defend against a round punch where the elbow should be dead on center. But against a straight punch the tan sao elbow would be off center...What are the pros and cons to this?

Sounds like a "technique vs. technique" oriented question and approach. I don't relate to Wing Chun in that way, and can't appropriately address that kind of question. I'll defer to others who are more inclined to play in that sandbox.

Moreover I fail to envision why a perfectly centered tan sau is appropriate for a round punch, for example. I'm thinking you'd want to do something more than put a tan sau up your center. I fail to understand the scenario, and I definitely have no sense of the dynamics.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[marcelino31]

Hello Kathy Jo,

Well that is the beauty of learning something; you learn it but you decide for yourself whether or not the technique is practical and really works for you.

[flaco]

i disagree with the elbow to center, i feel it is wrong. i can easily have my elbow on center for tan and fook, and i practiced this way for years, however, it was very hard in chi sau to block stuffn with my tan, the line should be pectoral to pectoral, not center.

also, when your elbow is center, the point of your elbow is pointing on an angle to the side toward your opposite foot, and your energy of your elbow is wrong. proper way, is to have the point of the elbow pointing straight down, so usually with this, your tan or fook is on centerline, but your elbow is not, is is more close to the ribs. this is the correct way.

immovable elbow means that the elbow stays down, the elbow moves forward and backward, we only deviate from this in a few instances, such as a boang sau.

[Miles Teg]

Ah the old elbow in the center argument!
Since I started a similar thread on this a while ago I have thought about this topic a lot. I have trained in a w.c that put the elbow right in the center and switched to one that didn�ft. I much prefer the later method of elbows more to the side. Ive heard all the reasons why having the elbows in is more beneficial than having them out and here are the main ones:
* Protection: the elbow covers the center
* Power/force: the elbow in the center is the optimal point to receive and issue energy/force as it is driving from the center of your body
* Positioning/distance: having the elbow in the center is the optimal position for issuing a strike as your arm is closer to the target

I now disagree with all of the above statements except for the first one.
The �gelbow in�h approach is in fact an optimal position for covering the center�c�c..
......within a certain context. This is from the context of the �gno or little pressure�h approach and the context of your partner also having their elbow in. When there is pressure and force is added to the equation, the need for �gelbows in�h diminishes. When both parties are applying forward pressure in dan chi sau or chisau there is really no need for elbows in the center and it becomes more of a hindrance.

When elbows in people hear of practitioners who don�ft have there elbows in the center, they often say that the center would be open. The hands are in the center but the elbows aren�ft, so they would be referring to that area around the solar plexus. Yes it is open from a stagnant point of view. If I we were engaged in chisau and I didn�ft change my position then yes you could punch me there. Likewise if the elbows in opponent decided to not move Im sure there would be many openings I could strike him/her in.

Basically what Im trying to say is:
Elbows in student + elbows in student + no forward pressure = justifiable and logical reason to have the elbows in

Elbows out student + elbows out student + forward pressure = justifiable and logical reason to have the elbows out

(Elbows out student + forward pressure) + (Elbows in student + no/tiny pressure) = confusion! Too many variables. Both parties trying to achieve different goals. Both parties convinced of the other parties lack of comprehension and skill.

[marcelino31]

Hello Flaco and Miles Teg!

Flaco, the point you made about the elbow not pointing directly down when it is dead on the center is an important one. With the elbow dead on the center an incoming force on the elbow arm will immediately destabilize you; with the elbow off center your stance will better absorb energy.

Miles, covering the center with the elbow does protect the centerline as you mentioned but i agree with you the proper alignment is on the pec or what i call the nipple lines.

I too trained in a lineage that emphasized elbow on centerline (an example was given with a twist of the fook to prevent strikes coming onto the center, using a wooden dummy arm).

I guess the next question for you guys is it really necessary to have the hand on the centerline?

In one system i learned to do gaan sao with a sweeping motion where the arm sweeps down and is aligned on the centerline. In this approach i was told to face the point of contact by using footwork.

In another system I learned that it was not necessary to face the point of contact in this manner; instead the gaan sao motion hand lines up on the nipple line, this was called the square box approach, i prefer this latter method as it requires less body movement and my body force is kept directed into my opponent more "square on"

regards

[Grabula]

Miles Teg, how do you not get better power production from an elbows in position? You have everything behind it at that point, structure is working for you.

[anerlich]

Having the elbow in, so that it stops the tan hand of the opp from striking directly at the body, is essential in one arm chi sao and poon sao.

You want the guy to have to move your fook arm out of the way BEFORE he can strike, so he requires two movements to strike and you are not trying to react to his single action, at which all but those with freakishly slick nervous systems will be behind the 8 ball.

Forcing the elbow right into the centre seems to violate structural integrity; none of my teachers have ever suggested that such an extreme is necessary.

[Miles Teg]

oops

[Miles Teg]

Hey marcelino31
Interesting! That sounds like how I used to gan compared with how I do it now as well. Sounds like we must have a similar back ground. Yes I think the later is much better than the method of moving your body around it.


Grabula said:
{Miles Teg, how do you not get better power production from an elbows in position? You have everything behind it at that point, structure is working for you.}

Well think about what your arms are doing when the elbow is in the center. The upper arm is on a diagonal angle between the center (where the elbow is) and where your shoulder is. The shoulder is on the side of your body. So when you receive/issue pressure or force, the power is not coming from the center, really. What drives the elbow forward is the shoulder. The shoulder is not on the center, its on the side. Thus the power can not come from the center unless you were a mutant and had a shoulder in the middle of your body, in which case it would work.

That�fs why I think the �gpower from the center�h idea is not valid. And it is also just weak full stop. Your putting your elbow in a very extreme position. In fact your elbow cant physically go much further. By doing this you are restricting muscle groups and hindering power.
I know there shouldn�ft be any reliance on muscular tension but I think that maybe a good way to decipher optimum position is by imagining how they would hold under extreme force, like weights etc. So therefore imagine doing press ups. I think the optimum position for doing the most press ups is when both hands and elbows are at the sides. When you do push ups with both hands in the middle it is more difficult and that�fs not even considering trying to keep the elbows in. When the hands are out wide it also becomes more difficult because you begin to rely on smaller/less muscle groups to push yourself up on. The optimum position is at the sides as it is more connected with the rest of the body.

[Miles Teg]

Anerlich said:
{You want the guy to have to move your fook arm out of the way BEFORE he can strike, so he requires two movements to strike and you are not trying to react to his single action, at which all but those with freakishly slick nervous systems will be behind the 8 ball.}

My understanding of fok is that it goes where ever your opponent wants to take it. It sits on the opponents arm and follows until there is an opportunity to strike. So the fok can be on top of someones bong sau, or pretty much any where except down low. Why would you want to keep it jailed up in a fixed position, even if you are not talking about it being right in the center.

[Grabula]

miles teg, fair enough, it's just been in my experience that if your elbow is aligned to the center, you can generate more power and your body can be put behind the whole thing. I do this and it seems to work for me so maybe if you haven't tried it go ahead and see what results you get. Look for one of those doors that has the cross bar you push to open it, preferably one that just sort of opens on its own an dodesn't have to be pressed in before the door will open. Anyway push with your elbow out like you say and pay attention to where all your strength is being focused and the sensations you get. For me, I feel a lot of push in my deltoid around my shoulder area. When I move the elbow in towards the center, I feel more "connected", my deltoid is still being used but now I can feel my whole body come into play as well and atleast for me, the door opens easier.
I'm not sure the pushup examples applies here, structure and purpose are different.

[marcelino31]

Miles an excellent description with regards to the push ups...you beat me too it it was the example i was going to use!

Also with the elbow in it is hard to use the concept of the circle to generate your force. Thanks to Tsui Shun Tin, one of the greatest wing chun geniuses that ever lived who teaches this stuff!

Also miles i prefer doing bong sao with the wrist higher than the elbow and then there is good old dai sau!

regards

[Phil Redmond]

When people say the elbow should be in the center. I don't think they mean exactly in the center. In the center mean, near the center. For example in the fook sau the Yin side of the forearm should guard the center. You have been saying
"One system of WC I trained in advocates this and that in many of your posts. You misconstrued what I said regarding the elbow in the centerline. I have a student that weighs over 300 lbs. How is he supposed to get his elbow in the center. Covering the path to the center is what really counts. Not actually placing the *elbow* in the center? It's common knowledge by many on the forum that you were my student off and on for about 3-4 years. Your innuendos are really obvious. You have another Sifu now which is great for you. Trying to disprove TWC or discredit what I taught you serves you no purpose. Be happy where you are and enjoy your WC training without the pettiness. I just hope I'm wrong about your intentions.
All the best,
PR

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Good topic!


Isn't the basic structural ideas of WC Lok Bot, Sow Hung, Mai/Chum Jarn?

Now, there are more body ideas but Mai/Chum Jarn for us means press the elbows in and down. Of course there are aspects that the elbows dont follow that (bong/kow/etc.) but I have found if your elbows are in front of your body then you are in pretty good shape! If your elbows fly out you cannot have true body power in your limbs no matter how you do it so you should always work hard on developing good positioning.

Another important element would be wrist on the centerline! Same applies to this as they may not always be there but if your wrists align on the center and your elbows are in front of your body (in and down) then things should be ok.

One of the greatest WC masters/fighters of all times said;

If your elbows are not pressing the center then you are not doing WCK! (or something like that)


See ya,

[Wingman]

Originally posted by marcelino31
<snip>...i prefer doing bong sao with the wrist higher than the elbow and then there is good old dai sau!

regards

FWIW, I was taught that the wrist is always lower than the elbow when executing a bong sao.

marcelino,
When you execute the bong sao with the wrist higher than the elbow, is the wrist straight? or is it bent?

[marcelino31]

Wingman,

When i do the bongsao the wrist is bent with the fingers pointing forward at the opponent. There is a purpose for the bend..

Some sifus discourage the bend claiming its easy to perform chin na to injure the wrist...

The motion is a dynamic one not a static one so really you don't have to worry about the grab..

[Wingman]

Marcelino, thank you for your answer. I execute bong sao with either a bent wrist or a straight wrist depending on the situation. You already mentioned the reason for the bent wrist; and I agree.

I have another question, "Is there any special reason why you execute bong sao with the wrist higher than the elbow?"

Hey! Are we on the correct thread? :confused: Shouldn't this be on the Bong sao thread?:)

[Alpha Dog]

Yes it should be.

-- Moderator Alpha Dog

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by marcelino31
Some sifus discourage the bend claiming its easy to perform chin na to injure the wrist...

I would argue that learning to do your bong sau with a relaxed wrist actually helps you slip out of chin na attempts.

[Grabula]

marcelino31, why is it you do bong sau with your wrist higher then your elbow? I ask because I don't really feel the structure "engage" until the elbow is higher.

[Miles Teg]

Haha Grabula
I live in Japan so all the doors in my house are sliding ones. But as soon as I find a normal one Ill give your experiment a go. I think I have an idea what you mean though. Ill have to give that some thought.


As for bong sau
I wouldn't feel comfortable doing a bong with the wrist below the elbow. I would at least do it parallel to the ground.

I dont know what Marcilino is going to say but if the wrist is lower than the elbow you can get in situations where someone good will gan sau your wrist and break your arm, because your shoulder is in an awkward position. I used to bong that way too but I found that when I came into contact with another school, they showed me how dangerous it can be. I could feel that if they went the whole way they could have broken my arm.

Also if you practice with forward pressure you can feel that it is kind of weak. It cant really hold much pressure. It is completely reliant on changing positions or expecting the oponent to follow through with their punch and not press into the center.

[marcelino31]

Hello Miles, my friend!

I also used to do bong sao with elbow above the wrist. For example, In TWC bong sao is always performed with The elbow above the wrist. The actual motion in application always uses a wusao (or tan sao) protecting hand close to the bong sao to support it. This is a mistake, why use two hands to do the job of one? And also with two arms so close together it is quite easy to trap them. A high held elbow as used in TWC has no chum lik and you can pin it (lift it up) from underneath.

Bong sau is a movement, not a position! it's often mistaken as a defensive manouver when in fact it is an attacking one. Master Tsui shin tin's bong sau does finish at shoulder height, it doesn't raise the elbow above the wrist. Raising the elbow above the wrist results in strain to the shoulder and creates a sideways flapping kind of chicken wing movement of the elbow. The elbow should always drive forward into the wrist throughout the movement. In lap sau (wu/bong), the wu sau arm should be clear of the bong sau arm.

The movement of bongsao should drive forward and not lift up.
The movement is like a spiral and the energy I like to desribe it as a drilling type of energy. Many times when doing chi sao for example if someone presses down on your tan sao with their fook sao and you are doing the drill going from tan to bong some people will have a tendency to lift the bong by raising the elbow above the wrist. This will put to much pressure on the shoulder (scapula) and is simply a force vs force contest which is not the point of doing bong sao. The proper way if you get force on the tan sao is to roll the energy foward and away from you. The opponent's hand is inside your circle when you are in tan sao and when you transistion to bong sao their energy and force is moved to the outside of your circle. The more force they apply on your arm while your are transitioning between tan sao and bong sao the easier it will be to upset their balance.

The fingers pointing to the opponent determines the direction your energy will travel into the opponent. By not pointing fingers at opponent (ie keeping them straight in line with wrist) your energy is directed away from the opponent. Fingers pointing toward opponent will allow you easily to unbalance opponent when you step forward and with body mass behind your movement.

Many people think bong sao is just a defensive movement. Meaning avoid doing it unless you have to. I think that bong sao can be used in a very offensive manner. To drive into and unbalance the opponent. This forward motion of the bong is trained especially in the third section of chum kiu where you step foward with double tan/ bong motions. You can destabilize an opponent structure by applying a two way force with the bong sao. One is using the foward moving triangle to crack through opponents bridge and at the same time to use the circular rotation movement. This movement is very hard for opponent to fight against..

regards..

[yylee]

marcelino31

You seem to have an interesting transition from TWC to other WC line (TST may be?). Wonder who is teaching you in Detroit?

With the fingers pointing towards the opponent, the Bong Sau structure becomes stronger against frontal pressure.

IMHO it does not matter how high or how low the Bong elbow really is, what matters the most is that the shoulder should be sinking and relax. This way the bong/shoulder/body connection will be maintained at all times.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by yylee
marcelino31

You seem to have an interesting transition from TWC to other WC line (TST may be?). Wonder who is teaching you in Detroit?

With the fingers pointing towards the opponent, the Bong Sau structure becomes stronger against frontal pressure.

IMHO it does not matter how high or how low the Bong elbow really is, what matters the most is that the shoulder should be sinking and relax. This way the bong/shoulder/body connection will be maintained at all times.

Hello yylee

I am currently studying under sifu Cedric Grayson, Leung Sheung Lineage... Once you become proficient in WC you can pick things up on your own and learn methods and different nuances as taught by other instructors.

You are correct, relaxation is the most important aspect toward performing Bong sao and any other motion. Complete relaxation is actually a misnomer as the movement has focused intent within it. you are not performing the movement like a dead fish, LOL....

And yes improving your structure against frontal pressure is useful as you mentioned...

regards..

[Alpha Dog]

Bong sao chatter must go to proper thread! This thread will be closed if you do not comply!!

-- Dictator Alpha Dog

[yylee]

Originally posted by marcelino31

I am currently studying under sifu Cedric Grayson, Leung Sheung Lineage... Once you become proficient in WC you can pick things up on your own and learn methods and different nuances as taught by other instructors.


sounds like you're having lots of fun over there!