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Royal Dragon
05-26-2003, 04:52 AM
Any thoughts?

David Jamieson
05-26-2003, 04:59 AM
Not sure why the ban on ma huang. I am unfamiliar with it's properties as a drug.

But ephedra I understand. It's a relatively short process from ephedra to methamphetamine and frankly if that can be kept off the street then that's a good thing.

cheers

Brad
05-26-2003, 05:56 AM
What are they? I've never heard of either of them.

David Jamieson
05-26-2003, 06:17 AM
well, both contain the drug ephedrine.

I believe that they are both used for the most part in weight loss regimens.

apparently, ma huang got the ban because it contains ephedrine.

ephedrine is essentially "speed". and is used for a variety of things like bee sting allergy or to raise metabolic rate in dieting programs.

It's pretty dangerous stuff if it is not used with care. And like I mentioned earlier, it's not a big leap from ephedrine to methamphetamine. meth is a huge problem and has devastating long term effects in users.

It actually creates little holes throughout the brain tissue. It eats away at the brain until eventual death in heavy users...if the heart attack doesn't kill them first.

cheers

Royal Dragon
05-26-2003, 06:36 AM
Ma Huang is Chinese for Ephedra.

As for the eating holes in the brain, sorry, it does not do that. It's an herb often used in Chinese sports perfromance formulas. It boost adrenilin, and is most known for dialating the blood vessles in the lungs, there by improving breathing capactiy. In high doses though, it becomes a vascular constrictive agent, and causes high blood pressure.

The problem is in the US, it is used as a weight loss drug. Unfortunetly in order to get that effect you have to basically over dose yourself on a consistant basis. Matters are made worse when mixed with caffine as it is vascoconstrictive, and has an enhancing effect on the herb. The raw herb taken as a tea before you train is very safe, and gives you a nice boost. I have been useing it for years prior to my own practice with no problems so long as I make the tea from the raw dried herb. I had some real scares with the pill forms years ago, and a really nasty one with one of those "Stacks" that mix Ephedra, Guranna (Herbal caffiene) and Willow bark (Aspirine). I got the skakes, and my heart was pounding so hard I though it was going to burst, I felt queasy and was having dizzy and near black out spells for hours. This was with HALF the bottles recomended dosage. If I had taken the whole thng as recomended on the bottle, I'm sure I would have died.

My studies on the subject lead me to believe that the refined concentraited ephedrine mixed with caffiene is the dangerous mix. Mahuang (Ephedra) as a pure raw dried herb made into a tea is a refreshing, stimulating tonic that is totally safe. I would have liked to see this be a ban of the Ephedra/caffiene/aspirine stack commonly found in fat burners like "Hydroxi Cut" and other such products, and not the actual herb itself.

David Jamieson
05-26-2003, 07:04 AM
rd-

it's the meth that eats holes or rather creates "pitting" in the brain tissue.

ephedra is a natural product. It is when it is chemically altered into meth where the problem occurs.

meth is made from ephedra

cheers

Oso
05-26-2003, 07:37 AM
funny little factoid:

The US military has passed out meth (crank) to soldiers working particularly long shifts/missions. A buddy of mine was in Korea and used it all the time there. Kinda scary...3 days awake and then a week of sleep.

RD, I'm pretty sure KL is correct in that it is some of the stuff added to ephadrine that kills you in the long run. I'm sure IL has banned it mostly because they are root ingredients in X and X is the 'baddie' of the moment in youth.

David Jamieson
05-26-2003, 08:47 AM
yep, "go" pills have been used in the military for a looooooong time.

I've seen them included with foot soldier kits from WW1.
But the earlier versions used benzidrene, and I think that even today it is benzidrine that is used while ephedra is used for allergy control, especially with venomous stings such as bees or wasps.

The pills the soldiers take have clear warnings to not exceed dosage etc etc because when one does overdose on these drugs there is a great chance for auditory and visual hallucienations.

cheers

Oso
05-26-2003, 08:52 AM
i probably shouldn't give details about my buddy but when he came back and told me about it, it was the first time I heard the word 'crank'. It wasn't an 'official' dispersal.:) Of course, he wasn't where his orders said he was supposed to be anyway...

Royal Dragon
05-26-2003, 08:55 AM
RD, I'm pretty sure KL is correct in that it is some of the stuff added to ephadrine that kills you in the long run.

Reply]
Yes, it's caffine. Caffine and Ephedrine are a deady combination. I think the new law (As I understand it) is misguided. It should ban the mix of the two. I mean ephedrine is the man ingredient in Sudephed (The over the counter decongestant). I have never heard of Sudephed ever harming anyone.

It's the Caffine because it's greatly enhances the effect of the Ephedrine, but cancelles out the localised vasciodialaton effect in the coranary artieries, and the lungs thus boosting blood pressure off the charts and risking death, especially in the mega doseges found in those products. Also, the ephedrine is refined and concentrated pharmaseutically.

In the raw herb, there are about a dozen different constituants, ephidrine is only one of many. Even in larger doseges of the raw herb, the amount of actuall ephedrine is not all that significant.

A 1 to 1 mix of Mahuang and Rhemenia is tonifying to the Kidneys, and I have found it to be effective in helping my Gout problems as well as improving both my training time, and intensity levels. Hard workouts often seems to cause Gout pain, but the above mix with a nice tall glass of Cherry cider prevents that.

Former castleva
05-26-2003, 10:06 AM
A drug that has been linked to 17 deaths,thatīs enough for me to ban it.
Iīd ban about any "herbal","natural" or related drug though,which has not gone trough rigorous testing.
Be wary of non-regulated ones.
Various sources recognize this drug as both controversial in terms of supposed effect,but know itīs dangers.


Information relevant to-.
http://www.hcrc.org/announce/archive4.html
http://www.herbalwatch.com/Alerts/herbal_ephedra.html
http://www.kbmoll.com/invest/iv_meta.htm
http://www.dietfraud.com/alerts.html

It is important to realize that folklore wisdom,referring to logical fallacy of "argument to antiquity" does not mean that youīll be out on solid ground using unknown drugs.
(Yes,not many might have used real medication together with herbal supplements.We realize this interaction may be the cause of fatality/problem,however,this is but another reason to take a serious stand)

Pilgrim
05-26-2003, 11:54 AM
G'Day
Too bad illionois has followed other states ( Texas, New York, I'm sure there are others) in banning ma huang/ephedra since it can be broken down into ephedrine. ( I sped read through Royal Dragon's openning so I don't know if it's ephedrine or ma huang that is "off the shelves" However, even if it was ephedrine, ma huang would be in danger since it does contain ephedrine.) Crank, meth is made from all sorts of ****- over the counter-cold remedies, for example, which are not being taken off the shelf-and to come down hard on an herb is typical US legal mentality.
Ma huang is a warming diaphoretic and is the herb of choice to be combined with other herbs to treat cold damage and resolve the muscles. Depending on the formulas and other herbs used it can induce or stop sweating. Ma huang combination and cinnamin combination are the two classic formulas that come to mind.
The ephedrine that can be extracted from ma huang is only 1 % of the total constituents of the natural product. The plant has other constituents ( 99%) that offset negative side effects.
To the Chinese, ma huang's main purpose is not as a sports drink, it's to treat colds, cold type asthma.
Go to www.mercola.com. An interesting article that gives figures to the 250,000 docter induced deaths a year that occur in the US, the nation with the most expensive form of health care in the world, got to research this and that, make money for drug companies, and rank highest in infant mortality among modern industrial nations. See where the babies die see where the ghettos are. This article was printed in JAMA.
The point is that traditional medicine works within it's capabilities; it's also very inexpensive to administer. And believe me, if there were 250,000 deaths due to acupuncture, herbs, massage, reike, nutritional advice a year, the AMA and MDs would shut traditional medicine down.
Well got to do my stances, body exercise and jurus.Pilgrim

Former castleva
05-26-2003, 01:15 PM
The site you posted seems a little controversial,if not actually harsh bogus.

I have been reading it a bit,and among some other things it does hint at anti-vaccine propaganda.
This kind of junk seems to be passed on by quackers (this includes chiropractics etc.)
Some vaccine related information;
http://www.ncahf.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?lines=1&ARCHID_2=2&lines=on&query=vaccine

Site includes a link to a supposed benefits of a bogus therapy (TT)
http://www.mercola.com/2000/june/17/prayer.htm

Additionally,there seems to be some pseudoscientifical information on milk (this evil,?unnatural? product.Referring to some milk-derived product here)
Here; http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/formula_diabetes.htm
Iīve noticed a surge of milk-hate in controversial&quackery sources,of course unnecessarily strict vegetarians or the misinformed may be led to this belief.
The site does not seem to offer a decent reference to any particular study.It tries to be scientific,drawing conclusions from a mice related study (however,how good a mice test may ever be,it is still too brave to draw conclusions as history shows)
It leaves some question on whether it is trying to pass on that milk is dangerous or that a milk related product is (in one case)

Interesting discussion on milk fraud;
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20056

Did copy some links from there;
http://www.acsh.org/press/editorial...milk020100.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/reports/milkado.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/reports/milk99.html
http://www.acsh.org/press/releases/milk100699.html

"Emotional freedom technique-psychological acupressure"
Pseudoscience guaranteed;
http://www.mercola.com/forms/eftcourse.htm

Fear over cell phones,EM-fields...
http://www.mercola.com/2000/may/14/cell_phones_cancer.htm
Debunking;
http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/quackery/id1.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/cell_suit.html
(Might collect more data later)

This is not all,but some things that struck me.

SaMantis
05-26-2003, 01:32 PM
My mom has always been a total health nut, meaning she follows every new trend religiously. Drove me nuts. During college she got me a job at a friend's health food store. The owner gave me a bunch of samples of herbal products to try out so I could recommend them to customers. Biggest one was this diet drug called PowerUP, with ephedra as the main ingredient. "Take as much of this stuff as you want," the guy said, "It's herbal, there's no side effects."

So I took the full dosage of PowerUP and spent the day feeling awful: hyped-up, out of breath, heart pounding, headache. I threw all the samples out.

Didn't last long there, anyway. The owner wasn't happy that I refused to tell customers to "take all they want" in terms of dosage. So we parted ways.

I guess it didn't help that I made a point of wearing T-shirts with logos like "Slimfast" and "Joe Camel" to work, bring DQ for lunch, etc. I just enjoyed watching him twitch. :D

Royal Dragon
05-26-2003, 01:47 PM
I haven't read all the links, but I do know Milk causes more mucus production, and lessens breathing efficiency. Many athletes avoid it because of that.

Former castleva
05-27-2003, 12:59 AM
Claims about milkīs unwanted effects (sidenote;at least here around,milk used to be promoted as a great health drink)
are not a few,ranging from completely irrational (milk harms bones :p ) to something like this.
As far as I know,none of these effects have been proven for real.
When it comes to proven,heresay to the direction of "this is not heresay,I heard them say so" does not qualify. :D

Reasons to despise milk may be cultural,for dietary reasons or shall I say,evolutionary geographical causes (disability to digest lactose)

" "It's herbal, there's no side effects." "
No side-effects may often be equal to no effects at all.A potential drug can/will cause side-effects,but this is normal for a drug strong enough to actually work.

Shaolin-Do
05-27-2003, 06:36 AM
In my younger days I used to eat plenty of ephedra... Never caused a heart attack. Wouldnt touch the sh!t now tho.

SaMantis
05-27-2003, 06:53 AM
Some of the backlash against milk is pretty irrational. I still put milk in cereal & coffee, though not as much & I don't drink whole glasses of it anymore. As I get older my tolerance for it seems less (I gets the gas ;) ).

I don't think milk itself is the problem, the processing of it is -- from overdosing the cows on hormones & antibiotics to pasteurizing & ****genizing the product so much that few of its original nutrients survive to reach your body. You get the additives - vitamin D etc. but that may be about it. (Well, the milkfat too.)

Merryprankster
05-27-2003, 10:52 AM
Meth is NOT made from Ephedra, although I suppose you COULD make it from ephedra.

Depending on the synthesis used, Meth is either made from phenyl 2 propanone and methyl amine or, more usually these days, reduction of pseudo-ephedrine or ephedrine via hydroiodic acid. I should point out that condensation of P2P and methylamine yields d,l meth so you have to take twice as much for the same effect as one of the isomers is not really very biologically active.

Most times, it's made from p-fed. It's more readily available. It doesn't matter which one you start with, you get the same isomer of meth out as reduction of the alcohol group to a simple H-C bond removes the chiral center.

You would have to run an alkoloid extraction on ephedra and probably run a vacuum powered fractional distillation to get the p-fed and ephedrine out of the ephedra. Why bother?

Royal Dragon
05-27-2003, 12:17 PM
You know way to much about this stuff :eek: :D

Ford Prefect
05-27-2003, 12:25 PM
The government is here to save the day! Thank you, Uncle Sam, for protecting me from hurting myself. If you weren't around, I'd probably be shooting heroin everyday and having ephedra-caused heart attacks. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

//sarcasm off

shaolin kungfu
05-27-2003, 12:28 PM
Are you a chemist, MP, or a drug dealer/maker?

Royal Dragon
05-27-2003, 01:24 PM
MP=Modern Grappeler. This sugjests to me he's in Law enforcement. Those guys like anything that helps them ground and cuff thier perps. and it would explain why he knows so much. Of course, so would being a drug manufacturer. :D :eek: :p

SevenStar
05-27-2003, 01:39 PM
It was bound to happen. If people would follow directions, we wouldn't have this problem, IMO. you have to be responsible when dealing with something like ephedra.

Royal Dragon
05-27-2003, 03:43 PM
It was bound to happen. If people would follow directions, we wouldn't have this problem, IMO. you have to be responsible when dealing with something like ephedra.

Reply]
The problem is the directions on the bottles are deadly. Take a look at "Hydroxi Cut". You've got a product that mixes Caffine* and Ephedra* (A deadly combination from the start) that ON THE BOTTLE recomends very dangerous doseges.

It recommends as much as 4 capsuels 3X daily. Each 4 Capsel contains 334 mg of Mahuang, and 910mg of Guranna, or 1032mg and 2730mg, (respectively), DAILY for extended periods of time 4 weeks and beyond according to the bottle.

When "I" took this stuff, I did HALF of that one time, and thought I my heart was going to burst, had near blackout spells all day, dizzyness, buzzing in my ears shakeyness and over all weakness, and severe insomnia that night (I took it in the morning). I don't see how someone with any sort of heart condition could survive it at the dose "I" took, let alone double that, THREE TIMES in one day that the bottle recomends.

If you comapare, I think if you make a Tea out of 3500MG's of raw herb, by the time you finnish boiling it all down and such, you have less than 350mg's of actuall ephedrine, and there is other stuff mixed in to that, so it's actually less. This is ALL you need to boost athletic performance, and you can barley feel it at that (like a good shot of Ginseng at best). You have to watch your performance numbers to read the effect. I got these numbers out of my Herbal Materia Medica.

Hydroxi cut recomends more than 3 times what the medical journal recomends, AND it has a Caffine substance added to greatly enhance the action of the Mahuang so in effect, you are getting close to something in the area of 10 times the recomended dosage or effect (my guess). Then they wonder why people are dying from this stuff. The problem, is it does not work as a weight loss supplement in lower doses, only gives an athletic boost.









*Guranna = Caffine
*Mahuang= Ephedra

Ford Prefect
05-28-2003, 05:41 AM
I'll have to stock up on Yohimbe before they figure out that it has ephedra-like metabolism-boosting properties. It also pumps up your ummm... labido, which can be a distracting effect.

Merryprankster
05-28-2003, 06:50 AM
Way less than 350mg (which is a SUBSTANTIAL dose). Standardized Ephedra weighs in at about 4% Ephedrine.

GreyMystik
05-28-2003, 07:03 AM
yeah it's apparently the "fast track" to meth now (ephedrine). several companies have actually started making their OTC cold products more difficult to break down into their respective components supposedly because of it. folks would go to the store to buy chunks of blister packs to use in their labs or whatnot.

by the way, here's an interesting (but LONG) article about meth for anyone curious. i'm not sure i agree with it all but the author brings up some interesting points...

http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id1950/pg1/

Shaolin-Do
05-28-2003, 07:23 AM
lol
mp does know too much about this. Methinks he is a corrupt cop with a drug lab.
:)
They still sell ephedra products like mad down here. I know a few stupid f*cks that drink on it... *sigh*....

Royal Dragon
05-28-2003, 08:06 AM
4%?? I did my math based on 10 %, so theres is less than even I originally thought. At 4%, my initial figure of 350mg's becomes a paltry 140mg's. This means that "Hydroxi Cut" recomends over SEVEN TIMES the doesage recomended in the Materia Medica. AND, they include an agent (Guranna/Caffine) that greatly enhances the effect and dangers as well. Because of that, I bet we could functionally have a dose that is twice the 7+.........or in other words, possibly 14 times what's recomended in the Materia Medica.

That is just criminal in my opinion. No wonder it was such a problem.

Black Jack
05-28-2003, 10:41 AM
Hydroxy Cut's original formula is going off the market to be replaced by an ephedra free verison. This goes for a number of other weightloss brands.

I see it as Sevenstar did a bunch of posts back. Dumb people screw it up for the people who use it with responsibility. Same went for Kava Kava.

Cheers

KC Elbows
05-28-2003, 10:53 AM
or krav maga.

Royal Dragon
05-28-2003, 11:12 AM
I'm wondering if it will work without the ephedra.

Royal Dragon
06-10-2003, 10:07 AM
Seruiously, where does it end? The herb itself is not very harmful form what I can see, so long as it's not concentraited down and mixed with Caffine like these fat loss herbal stack products. Why is everyone banning it? Wouldn't it make more sense to ban the combination?

Black Jack
06-10-2003, 10:19 AM
Royal,

That because politicans know what is best for you and me.

Would you care for some soylent green?

Man did I sound like a liberal above or what;)

red5angel
06-10-2003, 10:20 AM
someone is probably losing money somewhere. ;)

BSH
06-10-2003, 10:24 AM
The AMA is very threatened by Chinese Herbology and has a lot of money. Same with the pharmaceutical industry.

As Royal Dragon stated, the problem isn't the Ma Huang, it is the way it is used and combined.

Time to protect people from their own stupidity.

The problem with today's society is that we aren't stopping the Darwinian principals of survival of the fittest. We keep saving the lives of the idiots and they keep procreating.

rubthebuddha
06-10-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by red5angel
someone is probably losing money somewhere. ;)
nah, just spending it on a lobbyist to further an agenda. ;)

red5angel
06-10-2003, 10:34 AM
Has anyone seen the possible "fat tax"? I am not sure if this is just Minnesota or not but they are seriously considering putting a tax on foods with a certain fat content!
Thats all I need is someone telling me what I can eat, or making me pay more for food because some fat@ss out there can't control himself. I don't need any regulating, why should I have to pay? On top of that I am free thinking human being with my own idea on how to live.

norther practitioner
06-10-2003, 10:48 AM
The problem with today's society is that we aren't stopping the Darwinian principals of survival of the fittest. We keep saving the lives of the idiots and they keep procreating.

err, except that you contradict yourself.... I'll agree to what you were trying to say....
And if you didn't put that n't in there, I'd say I couldn't have said it better myself.:D

What is next, them not letting us have chinese only martial arts tournies in NY...... Oh, wait.

Them not structuring the budg....errr, maybe I won't go there this time.

Ma Huang is good for some stuff, bad with others, they could have just banned ephedra or something....

Royal Dragon
06-10-2003, 11:11 AM
First off, Ephedra IS Mahuang.

Second, as for the banning, it's pretty traditional for Chinese martial arts practiioners to have a glass of tea containing Ginseng or Mahuang or other herbs before practice. Often it's a shot of "Training wine" that contains any number of herbs, including Mahuang for it's abilit to boost respitory efficiency, soaked in rice wine for a few months. The use of herbals in the Chinses arts is just as much a part of the art as forms, sparring and Qi Gong.

Also, Mahuang is the herb that Ephidrine, pseoduephedrine and several other constituents that are commonly used in asthma and allergy medication found over the counter in your local Walgreens. How do they work THAT now?

Former castleva
06-10-2003, 12:58 PM
"The problem with today's society is that we aren't stopping the Darwinian principals of survival of the fittest. We keep saving the lives of the idiots and they keep procreating."

Iīm sure you meant vice versa.




As for mahuang,does it really matter?
It has taken enough lives already,indirectly or directly.
I feel confident saying that there is nothing in that herb that you canīt get elsewhere.

Royal Dragon
06-10-2003, 01:39 PM
It has taken enough lives already,indirectly or directly.

Reply]
No, the missuse of it by super concentraiting it, mixing it with an agent that greatly enhances it's effect (Caffine) and sellling it as a "Weight loss" product has killed people. The herb itself is actually very benifficial to practice as it greatly improves breathing capacity, and thereby endurance. If you use it in the traditional mannor, it's completely harmless. It only becomes dangerous when it is artificially concentrated, and mixed with Caffine.

Also, It has been used in products such a sudefed as a decongestant for many decades without incedent, let alone death. ONLY when super concentrated and used in these "Herbal Stacks" for weight loss has it been a problem.

I think a better solution would be to bann it's concentraion beyond a certian point, and the mixing of it with Caffine (Herbally Guranna).

That way, "I" could continue to saftly use it in the traditional mannor, and the ass wipes making "Hydroxi cut" would be forced to stop killing people with it.

It's no different than water, it can give or take life depending on it's use. The herb is not Evil here, only it's intentional misuse to make $$$ on weight loss scamms.

Former castleva
06-10-2003, 01:43 PM
I think Iīll take the water...
No risk,may not develop my breathing capacity but will keep me from dehydration and aid me in weight loss.

Chang Style Novice
06-10-2003, 01:45 PM
Royal,

That because politicans know what is best for you and me.

Would you care for some soylent green?

Man did I sound like a liberal above or what

This from the guy who practically bit the head off anyone suggesting decriminalizing pot isn't such a bad idea?

What's the diff between the gov't banning ephedra/mahuang and doing the same for pot?

looking_up
06-10-2003, 02:08 PM
Ephedrine (~mahuang) and pseudoephedrine are not the same thing. Similar, but not the same. At the molecular level, they are mirror images of each other, stereo isomers I believe. I'm sure
Former Castleva can dig up someone's PhD thesis on the subject if he felt compelled to ;)

Former castleva
06-10-2003, 02:25 PM
Sure... ;)

Whatīs up with misspelling my screenname btw?

looking_up
06-11-2003, 09:15 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about.

:rolleyes:

Royal Dragon
06-11-2003, 09:45 AM
He he he he, I saw that looking_up................you sneak! :D

Former castleva
06-11-2003, 10:22 AM
Sorry looking_up.
Apparently I misread my own screenname.
This is great.

Royal Dragon
06-11-2003, 11:22 AM
No, he edited it when we weren't look'n (That sneak!! :eek: ) . In the original, he switched up the "E" and the "L".

Former castleva
06-11-2003, 11:28 AM
Ha! Got him.

Thanks for pointing that out.
I had hard time believing it myself.

BSH
06-11-2003, 02:30 PM
Sorry about the typo on my darwinian theory. Brain think but finger no type.

Former Whatever-you-were;)

Enjoy the water, but I'm with RD for once. Herbs are a big part of my training. Ma Huang has been in my Jow's and in my tea's and it serves its purpose.

As usual, people screw up and die because they think that if a little bit is good, a lot must be better.

looking_up
06-11-2003, 02:54 PM
It does say that the post was edited...guilty as charged. All in good fun, of course.:)

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 05:28 AM
BSH,
Yeah, alot of people use them. I have a rather powerful training formula I have been useing whenever I'm in a flat spot for a good decade now. I wonder how it's going to work without the Mahuang in it. The sad part is my formula is very smooth, no heart palpataions, no shakieness, no insomnia. You just feel nicely energised, and your strength and endurance improves nicely. It's totally harmless, both to me, and anyone around me, yet one of the more important indredients of it, Mahuang is going to be illegal becasue a bunch of corporate Ass holes want to take the herb mahuang, concentrate it like 20 times what it's suposed to be, mix it with Caffine that enhances it's effect even further just so people can loose weigth and almost die.

I spoke to the Attournies that filed the original suit yesterday, and they say that a complete bann on it nationwide is expected with in 3 months.

I spent about 4 hours yesterday contacting every wholesale bulk herb dealer I could find, and no one has it. It kooks like they have been dumping it for months now in anticipation ofthe new laws. Finnally I found one supplier in a state where it's not an issue..........Yet, and bought out thier last 5 pounds of it. Even then, they won't be ordering it anymore because a large amount of thier clients are in states where banns are in the works.

What sucks, is every year some member of my family gets what can only be described as the "Death cough" that hangs on for like a month. NO western medicine helps with this, period. I gave up trying both over the counter, and presription cold remedies and antibiotics don't seem to do squat for it. but I was able to develop an herbal formula that knocks it right out of your system in like 3 days or faster. Mahuang is a key ingredient due to it's drying properties. Now it's going to be going back to coughing up flem for a month out of the year again.

I'm writting a letter to my congresman today. I'm hoping it may do some good. heck, if it's just illegal to sell, but possesion is not illegal then I can import it at least.

The problem here, is I support banning products like Hydroxi cut because the combination of Mahuang and caffine is very deadly, especially in the doseges found in those "Herbal weight loss stacks"

I wonder if Chinese hebalists will be able to prescribe Mahuang to their patients at least??

ewallace
06-12-2003, 06:52 AM
I disagree with the ephedrine/caffeine being lethal, at least at the correct doses, as long as it is used as part of a diet and exercise program. The typical ECA (ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin) stack is 20-25 mg of ephedrine, 200mg Caffeine, and around 80mg of aspirin. Of course if people don't follow correct doses they can get in big trouble. But if you hang around the gas pumps for too long you can get in trouble as well. Maybe we should lobby for gasoline to be made illegal?

This article may be of interest to you:

http://www.toxinfo.com/IJO_Ephedrine_Article.pdf

It pretty much states that at the correct doses a combination of ephidrine and caffeine have good results in weight loss, as well as reduction of cholesterol with minimal side effects.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 08:54 AM
You know what, I've used stacks, and I've used it the traditional way. The stack always make me feel like my heart is going to burst, at HALF the bottles recomended dosage (Hydroxi Cut)

The stack is dangerous in my opinion. I have researched this, and I somewhat understand the effects mixing caffine and Mahuang have on the body, and I am convinced it is a deadly mix, especially if taken long term, or in the kind of doses found in common weight loss concentrates. Hydroxi Cut for example recomends a daily dose of 334 mg of Mahuang, and 910 of Guranna (Herbal source of caffine). I have this stuff on my desk as we speak.

Your *20* mg's is like what you'd get form a cup of tea made from a teaspoon of raw dried herb.

ewallace
06-12-2003, 09:47 AM
But when you first started did you take the full dose? You shouldn't. If the serving size is 2 capsules you should only take 1 for the first week to get your body accustomed to it. These things, like many supplements, need to be cycled.

I thought that article may give you some ammo should you contact your state reps.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 10:01 AM
Yeah, I took LESS than the recomended dosage.

here's the thing, if you use Mahuang, and you get shakey your heart races, and your so hyper your bouncing off the walls, you OD'd. I don't care WHAT the recomended doseag on the bottle is. Mahuang is not a weight loss drug, it's for improving breathing capacity. In order to loose weight with it, you have to risk taking toxic levels. This is my assesment of the situation based on my research, and use of the herb both traditionally, and in the modern pill form in energisers, and weight loss stacks. I fully support banning those products. Or products containing large doses of the herb mixed with Caffine. It IS deadly, and has Killed quite a number of peopel. THAT'S why it's getting banned.

What the state rep does not realise is the normal traditional use of the herb in a training formula, or herbal decongestant does not use such high amounts, and is not dangerous or harmful, and can even be considred bennificial when used as a training aid.

I have a letter drafted, I'm sending it today.

ewallace
06-12-2003, 10:19 AM
I'm using my own stack right now, but it's from pure ephedrine and caffeine. 12.5mg of e and 100 or c for a week or so until I get used to it, and then I will double it and take it twice a day only.

No jitters or heart racing here. But I will drop the stack if they come on.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 10:55 AM
You know, I wouldn't waste my time with it. Caffine mixed with Mahuang is Vascio constrictive. This means the blood gets choked off to a certian point and has difficulty supplying your muscles with nutrients, thus lowering physical performance. I know you "Feel" stronger, but over time it does weaken you. This is where the heart faliure comes from. as the doesage increases, the ability for th blood to cirulate gets lower and lower due to the veins constricting. but at the same time, the heart is juiced up form the nervious system stimulus. This makes the job of pumping blood very difficult. At extreame doses like those found in hydroxi cut and other stacked products, it becomes deadly, especially to those with an unknown heart problem. Seriously, the exttra bit of rip you get from it is not worth it. Do another 40 minutes of cardio instead. it's the same thing, and you get more endurance from it. Mahuang is NOT for weight loss. That is a *******ised use for it.

A really low dose of only Mahuang, so it barely perks you up, is what you want for athletic performance. At this level, you get a slight adrenal boost, and vascodialation (Improved circulation) in the lungs which improves breathing capacity, and thereby a boost endurance. You want it form a fully natural source so you get the whole herb, not just whatever constituant the company "Feels" is the active ingredient.

Trust me, people are dieing form the herbal stack thing. It shold be banned. The traditional use however has never harmed anyone, and should be allowed.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 10:58 AM
I'm not sure on the exact numbers, but 20MG of pure ephedrine is like 1500mg of raw herbs. Infact, maybe more. 1000mg of raw herb is 40 mg of active ingredients, of which ephedrine is only one of about a dozen different constituants. I bet it's less that 5 mg's of the total dose.

Former castleva
06-12-2003, 11:00 AM
Was not mahuang originally supposed to treat asthma and as one source says,"respiratory infections"?
I doubt it does but just a thought of mine.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 11:04 AM
Former,
Yes and it's very good at that. I have an herbal cough formula that is VERY effective. Mahuang, Cherry Bark and Slippery Elm plus a few things.

Seriously, it wouldn't be in over the counter decongestiants, asthma medications, and caough medcines if it didn't work.

It also wouldn't be in the process of being banned if the mega dose Herbal Stacks weren't killing people.

It just sux that those of us who follow the time tested traditional uses of it are going to get screwed because of some greedy weight loss companys, that KNOW this stuff is dangerous.

Black Jack
06-12-2003, 11:08 AM
You really will not get screwed if you just grow your own herbs. Its not like you will be selling them.

ewallace
06-12-2003, 11:09 AM
I use it as a fat burner. I don't need the energy boost. Numerous studies have shown it to be effective in loosing fat without loosing muscle, which is the opposite of what will happen with large amounts of aerobic exercise. It has been shown to have very little side effects when used at the proper dosage.

As to hydroxycut and other herbal equivelants, I would stay away from those as well. I like to know exactly what I'm taking.

In almost every fatal case it was abused, or the person using it had health issues.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 01:12 PM
Black Jack,
The push is to make possession illegal. In the mean time, I found a supplier that can handle it. I sugjest everyone buy the raw herb in bulk now wile it's still legal in your state. I found a supplier carries it in bulk, dried raw herb for about $7.00 a pound. I just cleaned them out of thier last 5 pounds, though, and they don't plan on carryiing it anymore. As for me, I'm planning on buying a good 50 pounds of it over the next few weeks (if I can find suppliers). That way I'm stocked up for when the rest of the US bans it too.

I figure that ought'a to last me a good 10 or 20 years.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 01:22 PM
ewallace,
I never heard areobics causes you to lose muscle, thats a new one on me. Starvation dieting yes, but not any form of exercises. I think that's an old wives tale.

Question, where are you getting pure Ephedrine from anyway? You can't buy the bulk herb without getting all the other constituants that are in the herb too. I have never heard of a pure stand alone product that is just the isolated Ephedrine before. It's usually a Mahuang exctract that contains the ephedrine, or it's one of those stacks.

Again, I say your studies are faulty concerning the safety of what your doing. I know it burns fat succsessfully, but so does an hour of sparring. Mahuang Tea is just for aiding endurance. Fat loss requires too much of a dose to be safe. If anything, if your dosing the full herb traditionally, weight loss will be a natural by product of the extra ability to train longer.

ewallace
06-12-2003, 01:41 PM
It's not herbal. The only ingredients are ephedrine and guafenesin. You can buy it at almost any gas station here.

334 mg of Ma Huang is roughly equivalent to 20 mg of ephedrine.

Many many studies have been performed (by recognized medical institutions) on this topic over the years, and pretty much all of them had the same result. It's the people that abuse it or ignore medical problems that end up dead.

ewallace
06-12-2003, 01:51 PM
If you do excessive amounts of cardio it can lead to muscle loss.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 01:58 PM
Then why does it feel like my heart is about to burst from useing that stuff? Could it be that Caffine greatly enhances the effect maybe?

I mean really, if stacks are so safe, why does it have such a violent effect on so many people? It's not like I even used as much as the bottle said I should, I only used about half. I'm sure that the full dose would have hospitilised me for sure. The reaction was that violent. How come it does not feel like a nice warm cup of Mahuang tea?

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 02:00 PM
Oh, yes I do agree the problem is abuse, like having products where the instructions direct un whitting consumers to take potentially deadly amounts of toxic herb combinations.

Now all of us that use the herb in the traditional mannor are going to get screwed.

ewallace
06-12-2003, 02:16 PM
Could it be that Caffine greatly enhances the effect maybe?
Absolutely. If you get the jitters from one cup of coffee, you will probably experience the same thing for the first couple doses.


Look, it's not for everyone. I took Ripped Fuel back around 1993 before all the hype. I was even under 18 then too, and I had absolutely no problems with it. I have no problems with it now, and today is the first day I have taken it.


Oh, yes I do agree the problem is abuse, like having products where the instructions direct un whitting consumers to take potentially deadly amounts of toxic herb combinations.
Do some more research on this topic before you get sarcastic and bent outta shape.


Trust me, people are dieing form the herbal stack thing. It shold be banned. The traditional use however has never harmed anyone, and should be allowed.
So because you had a bad experience it should be banned? Because you reacted differently from me I shouldn't be allowed to use it but you should?


Now all of us that use the herb in the traditional mannor are going to get screwed.
See above comment.

It has only been very, very rare occasions where someone took the prescribed dose and had complications. Almost everytime they had a health issue that had they been properly evaluated they would have been advised against taking it in the first place.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 02:34 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, yes I do agree the problem is abuse, like having products where the instructions direct un whitting consumers to take potentially deadly amounts of toxic herb combinations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Do some more research on this topic before you get sarcastic and bent outta shape.

Reply]
I have done plenty of research. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being factual.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trust me, people are dieing form the herbal stack thing. It shold be banned. The traditional use however has never harmed anyone, and should be allowed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So because you had a bad experience it should be banned? Because you reacted differently from me I shouldn't be allowed to use it but you should?\

Reply]
No, a significant enough number of people have deadly reactions. This stuff is not labled as a poison that could quite possibly lead to death, it's billed as the next best thing to God concerning loosing weight. People wiht heart problems are taking this to help get healthy by lossing weight, and deing form it. It's not just me, there are over 40 dead already.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now all of us that use the herb in the traditional mannor are going to get screwed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


See above comment.

It has only been very, very rare occasions where someone took the prescribed dose and had complications. Almost everytime they had a health issue that had they been properly evaluated they would have been advised against taking it in the first place.

Reply]
This is an over the counter heavily ADVERTISED as safe product. Why would anyone even think they needed a "Health" evaluation to take it? By your logic, it should only be avaliable by prescription. Then I and countless others who use it traditionally by itself, not in a dangerous mix like a stack, get screwed.

http://www.kbmoll.com/invest/iv_meta.htm





Update: Illinois bans ephedra sales

On Monday May 12, 2003, Kenneth B. Moll & Associates, Ltd. filed the first nationwide class action complaint on behalf of all ephedra users. Click here to view the complaint.

Some of the named defendants are Metabolife International Inc., Cytodyne Technologies, MuscleTech, NVE Pharmaceuticals, Twin Laboratories and EAS. The following are some of the popular ephedra dietary products sought to be banned: Metabolife, Hydroxycut, Herbalife, Herbalite, Stackers, Ripped Fuel, Extreme Ripped Force, Diet Fuel, GH Fuel, Herba Fuel, Metabolife, MetaboLift, ThermiCare, ETA Stack, Xenadrine RFA-1, Ultimate Orange, Thermogenic Power, and BetaLean.

Several organizations have already banned ephedra such as the NCAA, the Olympic Committee and the NFL. On January 9, 2002, Canada banned all sales of ephedra products. On March 5, 2003, Suffolk County in New York, was the first County to ban ephedra. Many other Municipalities and States around the country are considering legislation to ban ephedra containing products. On May 2, 2003, General Nutrition Centers (GNC), the nation’s largest retailer of nutritional supplements, announced that it will discontinue the sale of all ephedra containing products by the end of June. The FDA is currently taking action to require manufacturers to place warning labels on the front of all products containing ephedra about the risks of heart attack, seizure, stroke and death.

In November, 2002, a $4.1 million jury verdict was obtained against Metabolife International. The company was ordered to pay this amount to four people who claimed they suffered from strokes or heart problems because they took the company's ephedra diet pills.

On May 25, 2003 Governor Rod Blagojevich passed legislation making Illinois the first state to ban the sale of ephedra products. The drive for the Illinois legislation began when 16-year old Sean Riggins of Lincoln, Illinois, died of a heart attack after ingesting an ephedra product to help him make the football team.

According to the FDA, Metabolife is currently under investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice. This criminal investigation began back in August, 2002.

Originating from the Ephedra plant, ephedrine has been advertised as a time-tested Chinese herb ("ma huang") that will relieve asthma and allergy symptoms, as well as enhance athletic performance and weight loss.

Ephedrine is the active ingredient found in popular diet pills, over-the-counter decongestants, allergy medications, herbal energy boosters and herbal asthma remedies.

As an over the counter herbal supplement, ephedrine is not regulated by the FDA. Recently, however, the FDA has proposed to establish a finding that a dietary supplement is adulterated if it contains 8 milligrams or more of ephedrine alkaloids per serving within a six hour period or a daily total intake of 24 mg or more of ephedrine alkaloids. The proposition also requires the labels of such supplements to state that the product is not to be used for more than seven days.

The FDA proposed the above action after receiving over 800 adverse events associated with the use of the dietary supplements that contain ephedrine alkaloids and reviewing scientific literature and other data concerning ephedrine alkaloids. The FDA has received approximately 14,775 comments in response to its ephedrine alkaloid proposal.

In response to growing concern about the safety of ephedra alkaloids in dietary supplements, the FDA requested an independent review of reports of adverse events related to the use of ephedrine so it could assess causation and determine the level of risk these products pose to consumers.

Researchers at the University of San Francisco and California Poison Control System conducted an in-depth review of and applied a standardized rating system for assessing causation to 140 reports of adverse events involving dietary supplements containing ephedra alkaloids that were submitted to the FDA between June 01, 1997 and March 31, 1999.

Of the adverse events reported, 47% involved cardiovascular symptoms, while 18% involved the central nervous system. Hypertension was the single most frequent adverse reaction, followed by tachycardia, stroke and seizures. Ten of the recorded cases resulted in death and 13 events produced permanent disability. In total, the FDA has reported over 40 deaths and over 800 serious side effects linked to Ephedrine.

Attorney Kenneth Moll said, the primary objectives of this class action is to: (1) obtain a Court Order forcing Defendants to cease and desist from the manufacture and sale of ephedra dietary products and issue a recall; (2) inform the public that consumers taking ephedra dietary products are at an increased risk of sudden cardiac complications, strokes, and seizures; (3) provide compensation to all victims for death and personal injuries; (4) provide a fund for all users of ephedra dietary products for medical monitoring; and (5) reimburse monies paid for the ephedra dietary products.


Click here to view the Federal Complaint against the makers of Ephedra containing products.

Contact Us

If you or a family member may have suffered from injuries associated with ephedrine and would like more information concerning your legal rights, please contact us.



Links to Search pages:


http://www.dogpile.com/_1_2ZWETBU02LWVPEJ__info.dogpl/dog/webresults.htm?&qkw=Mahuang+Side+Effects&qcat=web&meta=rs&top=1&start=&ver=19815


http://www.dogpile.com/_1_2ZWETBU02LWVPEJ__info.dogpl/dog/webresults.htm?&qkw=Dangers+Of+Mahuang+Extract&qcat=web&meta=rs&top=1&start=&ver=25611

ewallace
06-12-2003, 02:58 PM
Straight from the label of "The Patented ECA Stack":
Before beginning any program of weight loss, consult your health care practitioner. These statements have not been evaluted by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

Daily value not established. Jitters, anxiety, dry mouth or insomnia may occur during the first week of use. Reducing number of capsules per day during the first week should eliminate these mild effects.


People wiht heart problems are taking this to help get healthy by lossing weight, and deing form it.
Who's fault is that? Should diabetics go buck-wild at dunkin donuts?

My wife can eat one cherry and swell up like a balloon. She swears if she eats a couple more she will probably die from not being able to breath. Should we outlaw cherries too?

I don't disagree that it can be dangerous.

I've seen those stats in that article you posted. There is however a lack of more detailed information on the deceased or affected person(s) overall condition.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 03:24 PM
In the Chinese Materia Medica, it specifically states that Caffine is contradictive to Mahaung. The two are NOT suposed to be used together. Also, your "Label" does not state that the use of these two "Products" in conjunction is a potentially deadly combination.

If it continued on to read "More than 800 people have had strokes, heart failure, palpatations, and 40 are know to have died from useing this product", i'd say you have a point. But it does not say that.

Either way, the traditional use of the Herb Mahuang is not a danger to anyone, even those WITH heart problems. It's benificial as a decongestant, and in use as a pre-practice tonic to improve breathing capacity. There are no deaths, strokes, or other injuries associated with it's traditional use. In fact, I don't think there is any problem with it's use in decongestants, asthma and allery medicines either. However, there are 40 deaths, and 800 cases of stroke and other health issues ranging from major to minor from the use of the megga dose Mahuang/Caffine "Stack" with the intent to lose weight. There is a very real and specific problem with these products. If you don't support a ban on them, then surely you must support a lable in big red, bold letters stateing the product has been asociated with 40 deaths, and 800 traumatic medicall conditions such as strokes.

Black Jack
06-12-2003, 06:39 PM
Royal,

What I meant was that if you grow your own in small doses for personal use, kinda like how some people do small pot plants, nobody is really gonna be the wiser if you don't flaunt it.

The reason being that I don't believe their will be undercover Mahuang sting operations in that regard. Better yet go plant it in a public spot, buried away in the woods, and go pick it when need be, just make sure it is in a spot that does not get any pesticide.

Personally I don't know much about the herbs harvesting, though I do know about the herb itself.

Royal Dragon
06-12-2003, 07:46 PM
Yeah, I'd like to do that, but I don't know what kind of enviroment it needs, AND I don't know where to get the seeds. I do know that I could import it to Terri's sisters house, and just have her pick it up there. I don't see Nebraska taking this issue seriously enough to bann it. So long as possession is not illegal here, I'll be OK.

Really though, I'd like to see the retail sale of the "Stack" banned. That way the herb mahuang itself is legal, and can stll be used in over the counter medicines, and traditional martial training teas. Ewallace could then buy the ingredients seperatey, and make it himself. by doing that, only peopel with special knowledge could make it, and the genral public wouldn't be in any risk.

ewallace
06-13-2003, 03:33 AM
RD, don't get me wrong, I see where your coming from. And I do make my own stack with separate ingredients. I do not discount that it can be a serious issue, but I also don't blindly accept the numbers related to strokes...etc, without seeing other information on the peoples overall health condition before taking it. Nor do I believe it should be banned to protect people from their own stupidity (in most cases).

I'm also not a big believer in chinese medicine, so when I see studies coming from places such as harvard medical that have consistantly shown that it has little side effects, I tend to be a little more believing of it.

Former castleva
06-13-2003, 04:32 AM
Iīm not going to comment on what Royal considers traditional use,however;
"FDA is warning consumers not to purchase or consume ephedrine-containing dietary supplements with labels that often portray the products as apparent alternatives to illegal street drugs such as "ecstasy." Possible adverse effects of ephedrine range from clinically significant effects such as heart attack, stroke, seizures, psychosis, and death, to clinically less significant effects that may indicate the potential for more serious effects (for example, dizziness, headache, gastrointestinal distress, irregular heartbeat, and heart palpitations). Ingredient panels on these products may list ma huang, Chinese ephedra, ma huang extract, ephedra, Ephedra sinica, ephedra extract, ephedra herb powder, or epitonin, all of which indicate a source of ephedrine."

"Ephedrine, also known as ephedra or ma huang, has sickened or killed 800 users. "

"Ephedrine alkaloids are amphetamine-like compounds used in OTC and prescription drugs with potentially lethal stimulant effects on the central nervous system and heart. "

"effects, include hypertension (elevated blood pressure), palpitations (rapid heart rate), neurophathy (nerve damage), myopathy (muscle injury), psychosis, stroke, memory loss, heart rate irregularities, insomnia, nervousness, tremors, seizures, heart attacks, and death."

The fact that this herbal product(s) managed to sneak trough legal regulation of FDA and itīs ability to have gone unnoticed without serious warnings whatsoever is not helping.
Banning it is definitely worth considering by now.

Iīve included some links,including medical studies.
Do note that in order for the drug to be harmful,one does not necessarily need to be ill in health (in terms of neurological or cardiological conditions etc.)

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/ephedra001106.html

http://www.ephedrine-ephedra.com/

Royal Dragon
06-13-2003, 01:29 PM
Whooo Hoooooo!!!!!!!! UpS just delivered me Five Pounds of Mahuang!!!! Based on an exaghstive search, it's probably the last in the country. I only found one suppplier, and I cleaned them out.:D

That ought to last me for a few years. I am planning to use it very sparringly. Once or twice a week tops. If I'm not planning the hardest of workouts, I'm saving it for my medicinal formula I call "Cure for Death Cough". It's like the only thing that gets rid of those coughs that last for a month. My daughter or I get one of those every winter. Nothing else seems to help. I eventually gave up on modern western medicine. The remadies from them take a month to work, same as letting it ride out on it's own. the "Cure for Death Cough" clears it up in 1-3 days tops. I figure if this is the last I will ever be able to get, I'd better be carfule how I use it. The medicinal formula out ranks a training formula.

Royal Dragon
06-13-2003, 01:36 PM
Former,
I consider boiling a teaspoon of it in water, and drinking the tea before training, OR soaking about an ounce of it in ricewine for 3 months and taking a single shot before training to be the traditional use.

ewallace
06-13-2003, 01:38 PM
I don't know what it is with the cravings today, but now I have a craving for some sake. Thanks alot RD.

Royal Dragon
06-13-2003, 02:09 PM
hmmm, Sake with Mahuang soaked in it, and an apple...........sounds like a good breakfast!!

Former castleva
06-13-2003, 02:16 PM
But how do ricewine and mahuang interact? ;) :eek:

Royal Dragon
06-13-2003, 02:37 PM
It's the same as boiling it, only you don't have the steam stinking up the house and your other half consequently bitc.hing about it.

Actually, making a "Training wine" with Mahuang and other herbs is probably more common than the teas. You can easily make it by the gallon a head of time, and then just take a shot before you train real quick, instead of boiling and sitting there and drinking a hot cup of tea. It's faster, and more convinent. I have been to a good number of training sessions where a bottle was passed around to everyone right before the training started. It kicks in in about 20 minutes, or right about the time your done warming up and ready for the hard training.

Some groups use "Crysathinum" tea after traing to better facillitate recovery instead.


Common herbs used for training formulas are

Ginseng (Chinese red, white, American)
Mahuang
Astragalis
Ginger root

Infact, I have another thread going right now about a formula I found in a hand written manuscript given to me by the son of a decesed Tai Tzu master.

Virtually every traditional Chinese school has thier own "Secret" formulas for this. Usually it's a guarded secret known only to seniors, and rarely to the general students.

In modern times, many have made thier formulas public. Below is a few links to Oriental Herbs.com and some GREAT Training formulas, both in teas, and herbal Liqueurs

http://www.orientalherb.com/herbal_products_liqueur.html

http://www.orientalherb.com/herbal_products_tea_health.html

Royal Dragon
06-13-2003, 02:46 PM
He he he he he, I just noticed, they have a "Royal Dragon" Herbal Liqueur.





















Actually, I knew about it. Terri buys me some for Christmas every year, GREAT stuff!! :D

Thomas Chen
06-13-2003, 09:13 PM
Hey guys

If you want Ma Huang as a training supplement, shop for bodybuilding supplement maker Twinlabs....They make a capsule form of ginseng/ma huang combo for sale....The product is known as "Herbal Fuel", used by bodybuilders...I have tried it and find it super effective in enhancing endurance and intensity during my workouts...

Royal Dragon
06-14-2003, 05:51 AM
Sorry, banned in my state. If it has the caffine mixed in, it's junk anyway. you are better off buying the bulk herb (Also banned for sale in my state now :( ) and making the traditional training wines, or a tea. Nothing beats that.

GeneChing
02-19-2016, 10:52 AM
This came to my attention randomly. Although it's a year old, it'll sit well here.


Wed May 27, 2015 5:40pm EDT Related: HEALTH
FDA ban nearly wiped out deaths, poisonings from ephedra (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fda-ephedra-idUSKBN0OC2SR20150527)
NEW YORK | BY GENE EMERY

(Reuters Health) - A 13-year tally of deaths and poisonings from ephedra show a spectacular decline after the U.S. Food and Drug Administration banned the sale of weight loss products containing the herb in 2004.

"The number of poisonings resulting in major effects or deaths has decreased by more than 98% since 2002. The 2004 FDA ban has proved to be a very effective means of limiting the availability of ephedra and therefore its potential toxicity in the United States," Illinois researchers report in the May 28 New England Journal of Medicine.

It was the first dietary supplement to be banned.

"I used to see patients with a lot of ephedra problems in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I haven't seen one literally in 10 years," coauthor Dr. Jerrold Leikin, director of toxicology at NorthShore University HealthSystem in Evanston told Reuters Health in a telephone interview.

"It's the eradication -- you can almost use that word -- of this substance within a relative short period of time -- a few years," he said. "It was expected, but the extent is quite surprising. And remember, this was not a drug. This was an over-the-counter dietary supplement. There's been very few studies looking at the effect of an FDA ban on dietary supplements."

Ephedra, also known as ma huang, was the chief ingredient in many weight-loss and energy-enhancement products in the U.S. The herb was known to produce modest short-term weight loss but it was killing people.

It has been linked to heart attack, stroke, seizure, high blood pressure, and heart rhythm problems. It was held responsible for the death of Baltimore Orioles pitching prospect Steve Bechler in 2003. It was especially dangerous when used in conjunction with caffeine.

The ban was implemented in April 2004, overturned by the industry in 2005 but ultimately upheld by the U.S. Court of Appeals in 2006. Prior to the ban, industry groups were saying the substance had been used by 12 million people.

Using data from the National Poison Data System, the researchers found that ephedra poisonings peaked at 10,326 in 2002 and then began a significant decline to 180 by 2013.

Major effects, defined as hospitalization usually requiring critical care, peaked the same year, at 108, one year after the system began collecting ephedra data. By 2008, such reports were down to three or fewer per year.

The number of deaths peaked later -- at seven in 2004. There had been five, three and six the previous years. After the ban, there was one death in 2005 and 2007. There were none in 2006 and in the years after 2007.

"What kind of surprised us was the near-completeness of the decrease in toxicity, how it went from 8,000 to 10,000 down to literally a few dozen calls to the poison center," Dr. Leikin said.

He speculated that the initial declines seen just before the ban went into effect could have been the result of natural fluctuations in the number of poisonings and major effects.

Dr. Stephen Barrett, a retired psychiatrist who has been following the dietary supplement industry for decades, said he was please to see evidence "that action by the FDA has reduced the harm caused by an herbal product."

Unfortunately, said Dr. Barrett, who operates the Quackwatch.org, website, the FDA's "ability to act quickly and to ban other dangerous products has been severely crimped by the 1994 Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act. This awful law classifies herbal products as dietary supplements and prevents the FDA from banning them without proof that they have caused deaths and/or serious injuries. That’s backwards."

He said "the law should require that herbal products sold for alleged health purposes be proven safe and effective BEFORE marketing."

SOURCE: bit.ly/1AmGkvY

N Engl J Med 2015

sanjuro_ronin
02-19-2016, 11:33 AM
He said "the law should require that herbal products sold for alleged health purposes be proven safe and effective BEFORE marketing."

kind of a no-brainer and yet...

mawali
02-20-2016, 08:08 PM
Sometimes it isn't that easy!
Do a search on CYP isoenzymes. Certain isoenzymens (CYP450!) responsible for breaking down the drug/herbal product when mixed with other medication can cause life threatening situations and death. Some people may not have said isoenzyme (it is lacking) or it is overexpressed (more of an x compound) allowing for more drug to stay in the body (which is bad!) or underexpressed meaning said drug is cleared (goes through the body sooner) and having less of a therapeutic effect.

Check on grapefruit and cardiac medication! I no longer have the data but Belgian authorities (some years ago!) had a list of drugs (usually TCM) that had added medical products that cause so many adverse events that they started an EU programme to start a labelling campaign due to combat widespread abuse. It might still be available if you do a good search and know what you are looking for.
Much of explanation is in the realm of pharmacology, how the liver breaks down these drug production and what could go wrong when people mix drug and a herbal medication, which is natural, can become dangerous(the grapefruit.CV meds connundrum)