Bong Sau

[marcelino31]

What is Bong Sau, when is it used, and how is it performed in application?

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by marcelino31
What is Bong Sau, when is it used, and how is it performed in application?

Fei Jan.
Apply it however you want/need.

[Nichiren]

Why bother using it at all. There are better responces than the bong.

/Cheers

[Alpha Dog]

Bong sao is often the second part of "two-move chisao," whereupon both parties press their cases momentarily, then give up to start rolling again.

[marcelino31]

bong sao is not just a static position. Its a movement that covers various points in space. Let us discuss the rolling motion and the concept of the circle...

[S.Teebas]

Nichiren says:

Why bother using it at all. There are better responces than the bong.

To what? ....everything??

Why bother training it then?

[Alpha Dog]

Why all the negativity around it?

[Alpha Dog]

Bong sao must be another taboo subject.

Let's talk about Bruce Lee's bong sao then! Or Yip Man's or WSL's or William Cheung's. That should generate some discussion.

[sel]

bong sau is a useful movement for use in both attacking and defending.
the purpose of it is to redirect and absorb force whilst finding a hole to strike through. it's also very effective in upsetting an opponents balance and for subduing and pinning your opponents arms.

absorbsion takes away from the attackers ability to apply force and adds to your own force. redirection turns their force away. i'd say that it is attacking although those things in themselves are not actual strikes, they help to subdue the attacker and render him vulnerable and exposed to your counter strike.

using the attacking bong sau as an example:
absorbsion and redirection are not as passive as some people may think, they can amount to considerable aggression... imagine that someone takes an almighty swing at you with full on brute force say a heavy blow to your head. you apply the dai sau part of the bong sau movement to absorb and redirect the incoming force. the attackers arm is redirected, however with their commitment of brute force their shoulder keeps travelling in the same striking direction and it gets wrenched out of it's socket and dislocated as the arm travels in a different direction.
why would their shoulder keep travelling forward? if you don't absorb, the muscle reflex of a clashing force will cause a withdrawal of the strike upon feeling pain (as in a hard block). with your absorbsion this pain is not felt and they continue trying to push through. the bong sau structure expands/redirects causing injury to their shoulder.

[yuanfen]

Quote:Why bother using it at all. There are better responces than the bong
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?

Sure lots of possible responses.

But- if you don't master bong sao and it's many applications-- you dont come close
to understanding wing chun.

[Alpha Dog]

Bong sao is everywhere -- it's the bread and butter of Wing Chun when the other hand is added.

[captain]

bong sao...move of genius...i stopped a palm jab to my
face with the simple gentle raising of the bong..

russ

[Wingman]

What is Bong Sau?
Bong sao means "wing arm". Legend says that the creator of WC got the idea of bong sao after seeing a crane & a snake fight. The crane uses its wings to deflect the snake's strikes.

When is it used?
It is used to deflect an incoming strike.

And how is it performed in application?
It is performed/executed very much like a crane using its wings to deflect the snake's strikes.

Disclaimer: I've never seen a crane & a snake fight. The info given above is based on the "legend".:D

[yuanfen]

When is it used?
It is used to deflect an incoming strike.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
By no means limited to just that function IMHO.

[Miles Teg]

Yuanfen says:

By no means limited to just that function IMHO.

here here
Its a bully and a prostitute all in one. Excuse my lame attempt at using metaphors. I did in fact get an 'E' in high school English.

[yuanfen]

ahem! A bully and a lover maybe?

[marcelino31]

Hello Miles, my friend!

I also used to do bong sao with elbow above the wrist. For example, In TWC bong sao is always performed with The elbow above the wrist. The actual motion in application always uses a wusao (or tan sao) protecting hand close to the bong sao to support it. This is a mistake, why use two hands to do the job of one? And also with two arms so close together it is quite easy to trap them. A high held elbow as used in TWC has no chum lik and you can pin it (lift it up) from underneath.

Bong sau is a movement, not a position! it's often mistaken as a defensive manouver when in fact it is an attacking one. Master Tsui shin tin's bong sau does finish at shoulder height, it doesn't raise the elbow above the wrist. Raising the elbow above the wrist results in strain to the shoulder and creates a sideways flapping kind of chicken wing movement of the elbow. The elbow should always drive forward into the wrist throughout the movement. In lap sau (wu/bong), the wu sau arm should be clear of the bong sau arm.

The movement of bongsao should drive forward and not lift up.
The movement is like a spiral and the energy I like to desribe it as a drilling type of energy. Many times when doing chi sao for example if someone presses down on your tan sao with their fook sao and you are doing the drill going from tan to bong some people will have a tendency to lift the bong by raising the elbow above the wrist. This will put to much pressure on the shoulder (scapula) and is simply a force vs force contest which is not the point of doing bong sao. The proper way if you get force on the tan sao is to roll the energy foward and away from you. The opponent's hand is inside your circle when you are in tan sao and when you transistion to bong sao their energy and force is moved to the outside of your circle. The more force they apply on your arm while your are transitioning between tan sao and bong sao the easier it will be to upset their balance.

The fingers pointing to the opponent determines the direction your energy will travel into the opponent. By not pointing fingers at opponent (ie keeping them straight in line with wrist) your energy is directed away from the opponent. Fingers pointing toward opponent will allow you easily to unbalance opponent when you step forward and with body mass behind your movement.

Many people think bong sao is just a defensive movement. Meaning avoid doing it unless you have to. I think that bong sao can be used in a very offensive manner. To drive into and unbalance the opponent. This forward motion of the bong is trained especially in the third section of chum kiu where you step foward with double tan/ bong motions. You can destabilize an opponent structure by applying a two way force with the bong sao. One is using the foward moving triangle to crack through opponents bridge and at the same time to use the circular rotation movement. This movement is very hard for opponent to fight against..

regards..

[WCis4me]

For example, In TWC bong sao is always performed with The elbow above the wrist...............
............Master Tsui shin tin's bong sau does finish at shoulder height, it doesn't raise the elbow above the wrist.
Ok I am confused. In this picture of Yip Man isn't the bong sao(winged arm) above the wrist?

If so, isn't it HIS system we are all learning and should be mimicking?:confused:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/steve_yip.gif

[yuanfen]

wcis4me asks:
If so, isn't it HIS system we are all learning and should be mimicking?

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/steve_yip.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
should learn from Ip man's bong sao without mimicking.
I have no idea what the other fella is doing.,,but it's a diverse
world.

[hunt1]

Bong Sau = elbow above wrist
Lan Sau = elbow and wrist on the same plane
Ding Sao = elbow below wrist
(based on Bil Sao)

[kj]

Hi marcelino31. I can agree with some of your contentions about bong sau, and also disagree with some of it.


Originally posted by marcelino31
Bong sau is a movement, not a position!

I would contend that, while bong sau is never static ; it is both movement [I]and position.


it's often mistaken as a defensive manouver when in fact it is an attacking one.

What is attack? What is defense? The difference between the two blurs. We are, as my teacher calls it, "passively aggressive."


Master Tsui shin tin's bong sau does finish at shoulder height, it doesn't raise the elbow above the wrist.

Different from my bong sau.


Raising the elbow above the wrist results in strain to the shoulder and creates a sideways flapping kind of chicken wing movement of the elbow.

Can be true, but not necessarily so if one is performing bong sau correctly in other attributes you have failed to mention. Body posture, shoulder positioning are also important (which you did not mention), in addition to direction and nature of force (which you did mention). This aspect was my primary reason for responding to your message. I do not agree with wrist higher than elbow in bong sau.


The elbow should always drive forward into the wrist throughout the movement. In lap sau (wu/bong), the wu sau arm should be clear of the bong sau arm.

I would pick nits on this. If the gap between wu sau and bong sau is too great (or too close) in any dimension, undue vulnerability results. Similarly, the wu sau cannot be hidden behind or beneath the bong sau, or it also become ineffectual.


The movement of bongsao should drive forward and not lift up.

I strongly agree with this part, with the caveat that there is also a spiraling component. The end result to the opponent is not always inward (to him/her) but depending on the mutual dynamics sometimes sends them sinking downward or even a sensation of being sucked in.



The movement is like a spiral and the energy I like to desribe it as a drilling type of energy.


Okay, I can agree on this element of it.



Many times when doing chi sao for example if someone presses down on your tan sao with their fook sao and you are doing the drill going from tan to bong some people will have a tendency to lift the bong by raising the elbow above the wrist. This will put to much pressure on the shoulder (scapula) and is simply a force vs force contest which is not the point of doing bong sao.

I agree that this is a problem with beginners and others whose bong sau requires further diagnosis and correction.



The proper way if you get force on the tan sao is to roll the energy foward and away from you. The opponent's hand is inside your circle when you are in tan sao and when you transistion to bong sao their energy and force is moved to the outside of your circle. The more force they apply on your arm while your are transitioning between tan sao and bong sao the easier it will be to upset their balance.

Depends. Depends mainly on who has superior stance (posture, structure, & rooting) and positioning throughout and at any given point during the roll.



The fingers pointing to the opponent determines the direction your energy will travel into the opponent. By not pointing fingers at opponent (ie keeping them straight in line with wrist) your energy is directed away from the opponent. Fingers pointing toward opponent will allow you easily to unbalance opponent when you step forward and with body mass behind your movement.

I prefer fingers dangling. "Pointing" the fingers may invite too much tension to be utilized by the opponent. Bong sau, as you rightly allude, is a somewhat precarious anatomical position to begin with. Undue tension complicates matters, no less with someone well skilled or with expertise in chin na/ kum na.



Many people think bong sao is just a defensive movement. Meaning avoid doing it unless you have to. I think that bong sao can be used in a very offensive manner. To drive into and unbalance the opponent. This forward motion of the bong is trained especially in the third section of chum kiu where you step foward with double tan/ bong motions. You can destabilize an opponent structure by applying a two way force with the bong sao. One is using the foward moving triangle to crack through opponents bridge and at the same time to use the circular rotation movement. This movement is very hard for opponent to fight against..

Leung Sheung used to tell his students that they would rarely see his bong sau, and that someone would have to be very skilled in order to elicit it. We (me and mine) also have a tendency to use bong sau more against Wing Chun, or others who similarly occupy and utilize the center area, than against other means or styles where there is little or no need of it.

YMMV. Just some thoughts for the stew.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[marcelino31]

I would contend that, while bong sau is never static ; it is both movement [I]and position.

-> I disagree. A static position does not define a bong sao. Tan sao, fook sao, and bong sao are all the same to me when you use the circle theory. It all depends what your reference point is.
The only difference between the three mother motions has to do with how the circle changes its relation both in receiving force and issuing force.

What is attack? What is defense? The difference between the two blurs. We are, as my teacher calls it, "passively aggressive."

-> Many systems teach to use bong sao as a passive motion. For example against a staight punch you bridge with man sao or tan sao and if pressure is to great your arm folds under pressure turning into bong sao. However it is possible to contact an opponents forearm and stepping forward with a bong sao motion use the bong sao in an aggressive manner.

Different from my bong sau.

-->Yes, it is quite different than most bong saos. I have experimented with many different bong saos and it is the method i prefer now the most. I think a good rule of thumb to use is that the elbow of the arm doing the bong sao should not raise past your shoulder level... I have showed this Bong Sao to my sifu and he says that it does have good structure and application although he himself has not used it.

Can be true, but not necessarily so if one is performing bong sau correctly in other attributes you have failed to mention. Body posture, shoulder positioning are also important (which you did not mention), in addition to direction and nature of force (which you did mention). This aspect was my primary reason for responding to your message. I do not agree with wrist higher than elbow in bong sau.

--> I like doing the bong sao the way Tsui Shin tin does it and the way i described it is the way he does and teaches it. I agree good body posture and shoulder positioning are important, thanks for mentioning it... I use Ti Gong body structure and keep my shoulders down and relaxed when doing the bong sao motion.

I would pick nits on this. If the gap between wu sau and bong sau is too great (or too close) in any dimension, undue vulnerability results. Similarly, the wu sau cannot be hidden behind or beneath the bong sau, or it also become ineffectual.

-->I keep my wu sao hand away from the bong sao not near it.
The idea of having the wu sao near the bong to help redistribute force of incoming blow and to follow up with a quick lop sao is fallicious to me as you can easily be trapped.

I strongly agree with this part, with the caveat that there is also a spiraling component. The end result to the opponent is not always inward (to him/her) but depending on the mutual dynamics sometimes sends them sinking downward or even a sensation of being sucked in.

--> sucking the opponent inward is not the main emphasis when doing bong sao. The ability to ground and uproot your opponent can be accomplished using the bong sao spiral depending on many factors mostly how stable your opponent's base is.

I prefer fingers dangling. "Pointing" the fingers may invite too much tension to be utilized by the opponent. Bong sau, as you rightly allude, is a somewhat precarious anatomical position to begin with. Undue tension complicates matters, no less with someone well skilled or with expertise in chin na/ kum na.

--> what i meant by pointing was more a mental pointing or focus,
and as you mentioned, the movement must be performed without tension.

Leung Sheung used to tell his students that they would rarely see his bong sau, and that someone would have to be very skilled in order to elicit it. We (me and mine) also have a tendency to use bong sau more against Wing Chun, or others who similarly occupy and utilize the center area, than against other means or styles where there is little or no need of it.

--> Each instructor has a preference for certian methods and applications and nuances for doing things. As long as they fit to WC formula and structure then it should work in application. Thats the beauty of WC there's so many ways to do things!.

regards...

[kj]

Originally posted by marcelino31
I would contend that, while bong sau is never static ; it is both movement [I]and position. (kj)

-> I disagree. A static position does not define a bong sao. Tan sao, fook sao, and bong sao are all the same to me when you use the circle theory. (m31)

I too took exception to bong sau as a static position as well, in fact in the very phrase you quoted above. The misunderstanding may be due to my differentiation of "position" from "static."


<snip>
Different from my bong sau. (kj)

-->Yes, it is quite different than most bong saos. I have experimented with many different bong saos and it is the method i prefer now the most. I think a good rule of thumb to use is that the elbow of the arm doing the bong sao should not raise past your shoulder level... I have showed this Bong Sao to my sifu and he says that it does have good structure and application although he himself has not used it.(m31)

It's good you've worked it out, and found your personal preference, regardless of consensus on the particulars.


--> sucking the opponent inward is not the main emphasis when doing bong sao. (m31)

Not necessariily the "main" emphasis, but I maintain that bong sau can serve multiple and simultaneous purposes.


I prefer fingers dangling. "Pointing" the fingers may invite too much tension to be utilized by the opponent. Bong sau, as you rightly allude, is a somewhat precarious anatomical position to begin with. Undue tension complicates matters, no less with someone well skilled or with expertise in chin na/ kum na. (kj)

--> what i meant by pointing was more a mental pointing or focus,
and as you mentioned, the movement must be performed without tension. (m31)

Understood. Thanks for clarifying.



Leung Sheung used to tell his students that they would rarely see his bong sau, and that someone would have to be very skilled in order to elicit it. We (me and mine) also have a tendency to use bong sau more against Wing Chun, or others who similarly occupy and utilize the center area, than against other means or styles where there is little or no need of it. (kj)

--> Each instructor has a preference for certian methods and applications and nuances for doing things.

Indeed.


As long as they fit to WC formula and structure then it should work in application. Thats the beauty of WC there's so many ways to do things!.(m31)


General enough that I cannot agree or disagree in a meaningful way.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yylee]

Originally posted by marcelino31
-->Yes, it is quite different than most bong saos. I have experimented with many different bong saos and it is the method i prefer now the most. I think a good rule of thumb to use is that the elbow of the arm doing the bong sao should not raise past your shoulder level... I have showed this Bong Sao to my sifu and he says that it does have good structure and application although he himself has not used it.


IMHO, the height of the elbow depends on where your Bong-arm is on that "sphere" ;)



--> I like doing the bong sao the way Tsui Shin tin does it and the way i described it is the way he does and teaches it. I agree good body posture and shoulder positioning are important, thanks for mentioning it... I use Ti Gong body structure and keep my shoulders down and relaxed when doing the bong sao motion.


Curious to hear how you run into these TST materials. Did you have an encounter of some sort? :D



--> what i meant by pointing was more a mental pointing or focus,
and as you mentioned, the movement must be performed without tension.


just bend the wrist enough to have the fingers facing forward, no tension on the palm nor fingers.

[Phil Redmond]

While at the Great Lakes Tournament in April, I met Sifu Ambrose a Wing Chun Do Sifu.
I just remembered that he was Nelson Marcelino's former Sifu. Wing Chun Do practices Bong Sao with the wrist higher than the elbow.
I've studied from different direct lines from Yip Man as well as other lineages. All teach the Bong Sao higher than the wrist.

KJ:
From what I understand, you are from the Leung Sheung lineage. Marcelino's new Sifu says he learned from Woo Fai Cheng, who was a student of the same lineage. Have any of your people ever heard of him? If I am not mistaken doesn't the Leung Sheung lineage teach the Bong Sao with the elbow higher than the wrist?
Phil

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
While at the Great Lakes Tournament in April, I met Sifu Ambrose a Wing Chun Do Sifu.
I just remembered that he was Nelson Marcelino's former Sifu. Wing Chun Do practices Bong Sao with the wrist higher than the elbow.
I've studied from different direct lines from Yip Man as well as other lineages. All teach the Bong Sao higher than the wrist.

KJ:
From what I understand, you are from the Leung Sheung lineage. Marcelino's new Sifu says he learned from Woo Fai Cheng, who was a student of the same lineage. Have any of your people ever heard of him? If I am not mistaken doesn't the Leung Sheung lineage teach the Bong Sao with the elbow higher than the wrist?
Phil

Cedric teaches elbow higher than the wrist... a la leung sheung lineage....

I only trained under Sifu Ambrose for a short time and then left his school. It was not from him that i learned the use of the wrist higher than elbow bong sao though. I trained with ambrose during 1996.. but only for a short time

[PaulH]

There are many bong shapes in WC. I'm glad that Hunt1 point out this earlier. I would like to add a few more Wu, Jom, Gan, Biu and even Huen Sau. Each hand have certain peculiar bone alignment as well as a specific power root that will help to avoid his strength while attacking his weakness. If one investigate carefully the what, when, and why of each of these hand, the logics of elbow and wrist location will be more understandable within their context.

Regards.

[namron]

Some interesting stuff out there.

A few people have mentioned spiralling energy, which for me is important in two arm chi sau to keep an even forward energy between the bon and tan transitions (ie not just collapsing into tan and jerking up carrying your partners weight into bon).

I personally think that this move like many others in wc can be used in many ways and against many attacks, thus in application I do not always 'spiral'.

I as in one application marcelino31 mentioned in twc, i do a bon larp i prefer quickly absorb, larp and attack hopefully making the opponent feel like they are falling into water.

I will use it aggressively against a passive guard or punch.

I will step if the line and into a side neutral against a deep strike.

The main thing with bon is that for that split second your not attacking (ie: no simultaneous attack and defense) so it must IMO be used as one quick fluid movement.

[Alpha Dog]

Where is wrist?

[kj]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
KJ:
From what I understand, you are from the Leung Sheung lineage. Marcelino's new Sifu says he learned from Woo Fai Cheng, who was a student of the same lineage. Have any of your people ever heard of him?

Hi Phil.

I asked both Ken and Jack Ling, though neither recalled the name Woo Fai Cheng. They said that Leung Sheung had many students, and they didn't know all of them, especially those who might have come and gone during their in-between years. If I get the chance, I will try to remember and inquire with Wong Siu or others in case one of them might recall the name.


If I am not mistaken doesn't the Leung Sheung lineage teach the Bong Sao with the elbow higher than the wrist?
Phil

Yes, elbow is higher than wrist; it is as if water flowing down from elbow to wrist. This applies through the entire range of vertical levels, from dai bong to go bong.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks KJ
Phil

[stuartm]

Hi ,

Would have to agree with Joy - Bong Sau is by no means just a deflecting move. No offence to anyone here or their teachers - but if you have been taught that this is the sole use of Bong Sau then i would ask a few searching questions.

A few interpretations of Bong Sau are:

-Yes - to deflect, momentarily collapse in order to evolve into a natural technique - e.g fak sau. biu jee, lan sau

- you can use it to destroy your opponents structure in Chi sau - by using your elbow energy, you can control the opponents fook sau. For eg a bong with pivot to take your opponents fook sau across his centre. lap sau underneath yuor bong and fak sau

- to defand against lap sau - if you are pulled you can raise your bong sau as you staep in with the lap and strike underneath your bong for eg with the chum kiu rising punch

- Bong can be used as a set up - eg inside bong develping into doube lap or tok / jut on the outside gate

- fold bong sau into your opponent as pie jarn / cup jarn / kwai jarn

- Use it with Tan as kwun sau to prevent trap in chi Sau

Look how many times it is repeated in the forms and more importantly the dummy.It is undoubtedly one of the most important structural principles in the WC system

Regards, Stuart

[Phil Redmond]

If timed just right you can *rush* into an opponent using a parallel arm bong with a wu sau/lop sau trap.
Phil

[Nichiren]

Hehehe, I think my comment that the bong shuldn't be used was a little bit short.

What I mean is that as soon as the bong is formed I seek to change it into something else as soon as possible. I try not to get in a situation where I need the bong but try to get in a situation where my opponent use the bong. I feel defensive using the bong. Maybe it is my worn shoulders :(

/Cheers

[yuanfen]

Hi Nichiren- I avoid dogma or try to. I never consciously avoid using the bong. It is one of the three major foundation motions
of wing chun. I dont know how you wore out your shoulder.
A good bong sao puts minimal stress on the shoulder.

[fa_jing]

I was taught that the energy of the bong was mostly to the side, not forward or upward.

I find it especially useful when your hand is low for some reason, and you need to quickly deflect a high straight punch.

Low bong sao is good against some kicks. My teacher hit me with a mean whipping punch once after low bong'ing my side kick. Should've kept my hands up.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I was taught that the energy of the bong was mostly to the side, not forward or upward.


Which side? Outside (elbow out) or inside (elbow inside the gate)?

[fa_jing]

Towards my inside gate.

Others may vary.

[fa_jing]

Clarification: in application we usually praticed Bong Sao with a full or partial stance shift. This was part of the sideways energy. It came out a little differently than in SLT or standing Dan Chi Sao. The shape is the same, but obviously the direction of the energy is different.