is 34 too old

[earnest]

to begin a martial art?

[Becca]

Nope. There's a guy at my kwoon who just started a few weeks ago who's in his late 50s and has never done anything phisical since high school.

[old jong]

At your age,you should know!...:D Seriously, 34 is young enough to begin and even achieve lots of things. ;)
Have some fun here!

[carly]

but I wouldn't try taking up acrobatic wu shu or anything.

[Dark Knight]

Im 40, Been in for over 25 years.

And best of all, even at 40 Im not too old to sleep with 18 year old hotties ;)

[Nick]

Hell no! I know a guy in my class who started in his late forties, now he's in great shape.

Later...

[Laughing Cow]

Nope not too old.

There are quiet a few renowned masters that started late too.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm turning 34 on Thursday, so it better not be too old.

[Oso]

I've just had a 51 year old woman start my classes. She came in saying she was interested in it from a self defense standpoint. She does the beginning drills ok and is banging arms with the younger guys but at 51 I just don't think she is ever going to have the physicality to pursue martial arts as a viable method of self defense. In the past she has learned both long and short yang style tai chi so has decent body awareness and movement. I just don't know on this one, she's come to 4 classes in a row and seems to be intent on it but she's a small 51 year old woman. :confused:

[joedoe]

Not too old. Age makes it harder at first but there is no reason why an older person cannot develop good kung fu. We have a guy in his mid-50s who started because his sons started. Now they are gone and he is still training - and getting better every time I see him.

[kungfu cowboy]

Didn't you hear? Forty is the new thirty: which means you are still in your twenties! Except for the getting old part, age doesn't exist!

[MightyB]

34 is not too old. Great to hear that you're starting the martial arts. Just remember to have fun.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Didn't you hear? Forty is the new thirty: which means you are still in your twenties! Except for the getting old part, age doesn't exist!

Excellent.

I'm immortal.

[Becca]

Originally posted by carly
but I wouldn't try taking up acrobatic wu shu or anything.

Why not? With a good Sifu to guide him, it should just fine. I
doubt any one will expect cart wheels and leaps right off the bat, any way.:)

[earnest]

In that case can anyone recommend instruction in the Madison, Wisconsin area? Any information. whether pro or con, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Serpent]

The only restriction you have is your mind.

Anything else can be overcome.

[Oso]

joedoe, I think she could do the drills and forms and techniques ok. But, she wants it for self defense. I'm not going to fill her head, or any other students head, with crap about what learning forms and techniques from the forms will do for you WITHOUT the sparring/fighting that you need to do to attempt to work them against a real threat.

before my students test for rank the first time, I always slip a shot to the body in hard enough to make them hurt a little. If anyone whines about it then I do a repeat of the 'reality' speech:

A--some idiot on the street isn't going to be trying to play patty cake with you.

B--if you can't take a hit and keep going, you have no hope of winning a fight.

C--to get to that point, we have to strive to make our classroom experience as real as we can w/o major injuries. Meaning, you are going to get hit in class, harder and harder as you progress.

D--you need to think about that and decide if you really want to try and be able to protect yourself with martial arts.

so, my quandary is that even though she is fine doing the beginning drills she will not ever want to take a punch and I don't think she is capable of taking a fall with the laundry list of ailments she has told me about I just don't see her ever being ready to play hard.

oh, earnest, I don't think 34 is too old, just depends on what you want out of it and finding a teacher who structures his/her class in a manner that fits what you want. If you just want it for physical fitness then you will find those. If you want it to learn how to fight then you will find those. If you want to learn to fight you will have to not mind abusing you body for a while.

[Oso]

Im 40, Been in for over 25 years.

And best of all, even at 40 Im not too old to sleep with 18 year old hotties



lol, missed this on the first pass through...so, DK, is there an after tourny drinking component to the nationals??? If, so, I'll certainly buy you one just for that comment.

[Royal Dragon]

34 ahy?? I'm 35, all I can say is it takes alot of Ginseng to keep up with the young pups. :p But it's doable for sure!!! Just don't expect to jump into the UFC and fight a 28 year old pro any time.....soo*cough*n.......I mean ever.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Oso
joedoe, I think she could do the drills and forms and techniques ok. But, she wants it for self defense. I'm not going to fill her head, or any other students head, with crap about what learning forms and techniques from the forms will do for you WITHOUT the sparring/fighting that you need to do to attempt to work them against a real threat.

before my students test for rank the first time, I always slip a shot to the body in hard enough to make them hurt a little. If anyone whines about it then I do a repeat of the 'reality' speech:

A--some idiot on the street isn't going to be trying to play patty cake with you.

B--if you can't take a hit and keep going, you have no hope of winning a fight.

C--to get to that point, we have to strive to make our classroom experience as real as we can w/o major injuries. Meaning, you are going to get hit in class, harder and harder as you progress.

D--you need to think about that and decide if you really want to try and be able to protect yourself with martial arts.

so, my quandary is that even though she is fine doing the beginning drills she will not ever want to take a punch and I don't think she is capable of taking a fall with the laundry list of ailments she has told me about I just don't see her ever being ready to play hard.

oh, earnest, I don't think 34 is too old, just depends on what you want out of it and finding a teacher who structures his/her class in a manner that fits what you want. If you just want it for physical fitness then you will find those. If you want it to learn how to fight then you will find those. If you want to learn to fight you will have to not mind abusing you body for a while.

Does she have to test to learn the self-defence aspects of your art? I mean, you could use the same argument for anyone - there are plenty of people both male and female, young and old, who would not be able to take that punch (I probably couldn't :)). Not everyone has to be a great fighter to be able to defend themselves.

[Oso]

I disagree with that. You have to be able to block/evade/slip/absorb an attack by a potentially larger opponent. IF you screw that up, you are going to get hit. True, everyone could possibly be hit once good enough to be ko'd or stunned long enough for the bad guy to completely overwhelm you. If you can't take that hit in the beginning then you must train to be able to do so. This woman has already shown me that she won't. But, she thinks she wants to do it but I don't see the mental capability much less the physical.

We'll see, I've about run out of stuff to introduce her to at this point and falls are next. We have a very forgiving floor and use 1'' mats on top of that but I just don't see her hitting the ground 20 times (5 each direction) which is all I have newbies do the first time they fall.

hmm, missed the first question...no, she doesn't have to test but my tests are the mechanic that says "ok, you can do these things at this level of expectation. you are ready to learn these other things." I think everyone has a progression of skills whether they 'test' or not. whether I test her or not, I don't see her performing the first skills with enough proficiency to warrant teaching her the next step.

I've said before that I'm all about trying to take that person who is NOT already physically capable and doing something good with them. And, I can probably get her to doing the forms well enough but how am I supposed to say that she can defend her self on the street if she can't defend against me in the school?...and I'm a nice guy.

I've seen very few truly hopeless cases but I just don't see this woman becoming capable of defending herself against anyone bigger than her.

some people just need to be aware that their only options are avoiding and running. I know that sounds harsh but not everyone is a fighter at heart and tons of people who think they are aren't aware of the harsh reality of getting nailed hard. I try to prepare people for that as best I can.

[ZIM]

Well, at least Oso's student knows what she's after- she hasn't a delusion of 'mastering an art', but needs some tools for herself. That's positive, I'd say.

Which brings up an interesting question that I'll bring up some other time. *burp*

34 ain't too old. What kind of art you looking for?? Maybe you could hit the search function at the top-ish and look up "madison" or "wisconsin". Start like that.


I've seen very few truly hopeless cases Like, what would you consider a hopeless case?? [Besides me, i mean..:p] C'mon- make with the STORY! STOREEEEEY!Its almost bedtime, ya know...

[Oso]

the only truly hopeless case was a guy at my sifu's school. He just had a bunch of disconnected wire's running from his brain to his body. It was very sad, he wanted it so bad but it just wouldn't work for him. My sifu and I both worked with him as much as we could and it just wasn't happening for him. His body just wouldn't work the way he wanted it to.

I agree, it is good for this woman to know what she wants but realistically I think she needs to find a good small arms instructor and spend the next six months or more learning how to combat shoot a pistol.

I'll teach her but I won't compromise what I think she needs to do to prepare herself to face a street threat and survive.

[Laughing Cow]

Oso.

Out of curiosity.

Why did you take her on in the first place?

[Oso]

I teach in a gym, gym members can take the class as part of the gym membership and I can't tell them not to take the class. A definite downside to my situation. Usually the warm up boots people out. She isn't doing all of the warmup but I never tell people they should be doing the entire thing right away.

To restate: I basically think she is just totally ignorant of what a self defense situation is like. I teach from a worst case scenario. She will not take to the level of contact. She won't like falling the number of times it takes to learn how to fall correctly. She thinks she can learn some moves and be safe. I'm not going to propagate that. But, not only is she ignorant, she appears to be stubborn. I can make her more aware and deal with the stubborness but she is just not going to want to train hard.

[ZIM]

MAs are not physical therapy. :( Yoga might've been a better fit, some styles of that, anyhow. For similar reasons, and others, I'm investing more time with that right now.

But not truly hopeless. ;) So what happened with the guy?

Here was the question, if you want to look at it: How much kung fu do you need? 1 form and some drilling? A whole art? If you do 1 form, would you say 'I do x art' or 'I do x form'? hehehe

I understand what you're saying WRT quality control, taking responsibility. If she did the small arms, would you feel better on it? does she oppose guns?

Will I, o will I stop with the questions???
:confused: :p

[Laughing Cow]

Oso.

I understand your dilemma.
On one hand you want to teach quality Self Defense, but are limited with students that you get via the Gym.

Personally, I don't think that you are in the wrong location to teach what you do.

One of my Sifu once said the following:
"When I take on a student I have made a commitment to get him to the highest skill level possible. If the student does not become competent than I have failed as a teacher."

Cheers.

[Oso]

LOL

yea, if what she wants is reasonable assurance that she can prevent a mugging or rape then I would totally feel better about her doing a small arms combat course.

the root of this is my old question about 'self defense'.

How can anyone teach a 4,6 or 8 hour SD course and feel good about what they have done? Nothing can be learned in that amount of time that will help someone defend themselves UNLESS they drill it on a regular basis.


The guy stopped coming. He tested for yellow after almost a year and did not do well at all but we passed him and were hoping that he would stick with it and we would keep on trying.


'how much do you need?' hmm, I would answer then with 'no forms and a basic skill set' OMFG, I sound like a mma dude:cool: :mad:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
I've seen very few truly hopeless cases but I just don't see this woman becoming capable of defending herself against anyone bigger than her.


Well, if she reads these forums then you don't need to worry any more!

As for the hopeless guy, I think that says more about the teaching than the student.

;)

[Oso]

you didn't see the guy. 'wink', my azz.

I think this is a very unique situation. Most people would realize their capabilities and/or their potential, or lack there of. She's 51. I'm not talking about even a middle aged person but someone on the verge of senior citizenship. She's out of any sort of cardio shape and physically weak w/o the understanding that it's going to be painfull in many ways to improve upon those things to a point where she could take on even a 160-170 lb man.

LC, I basically agree with your sifu's statement. However, there are those students who think they want to do something but for some reason don't or can't put the effort into it. I feel that this woman is beyond a point where she can effectively learn how to defend herself.

time for bed gentleman, thanks for the feedback.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
you didn't see the guy. 'wink', my azz.

I think this is a very unique situation. Most people would realize their capabilities and/or their potential, or lack there of. She's 51. I'm not talking about even a middle aged person but someone on the verge of senior citizenship. She's out of any sort of cardio shape and physically weak w/o the understanding that it's going to be painfull in many ways to improve upon those things to a point where she could take on even a 160-170 lb man.


You're putting more limitations on her than she's putting on herself! So you'll never be able to teach her.

In most western countries a person isn't a senior citizen until they're 65. Sure, she's got a long way to go and a lot of pain to get there, but how do you know she won't do it? If you were half a teacher you'd do everything in your power to make it work for her and let her fail instead of writing her off at the outset.

[Serpent]

BTW, what does "Wink, my azz" mean?

[Becca]

Originally posted by Oso
To restate: I basically think she is just totally ignorant of what a self defense situation is like. I teach from a worst case scenario. She will not take to the level of contact. She won't like falling the number of times it takes to learn how to fall correctly. She thinks she can learn some moves and be safe. I'm not going to propagate that. But, not only is she ignorant, she appears to be stubborn. I can make her more aware and deal with the stubborness but she is just not going to want to train hard.

After reading through this whole thing again, I realized that I know a lady just like your student. But don't give up. the lady I know actually did take to being thrown. In fact, after a lesson on falling properly, she steped back down to the beginner's class to work on her basic skills because she noticed on her own that she didn't have a good enough grasp on them. She wasn't 51, but had been in a nasty accident and had alot of scar tissue and some nerve damage. It's taking her alot longer, but encouragement is keeping her going.

[Oso]

cuz, I new you weren't joking with the quality of instructor bit.

I'm making a judgement based on 4 classes. This woman would not make it in anyone's external martial arts class. Nor any internal art that really trains for combat.

I havn't put a single limitation on her, you guys are just getting my vent on the subject. I have been teaching her just like I teach everyone else. I am encouraging her to keep try trying against my better judgement. She will not be able to learn anything I teach her to a point where she can apply it live.

What I say here doesn't mean I'm not teaching her well. Just that I think she is on fruitless quest too late in her life. A poke in the eye with your keys, a karate chop to the neck or a knee to the groin is NOT even remotely good self defense. I think a lot of instructors have been passing off weak excuse for self defense. I am not going to delude someone into thinking they can handle themselves if they won't do the training for it.

i'm off to bed...

[Serpent]

Right on, Becca. People are capable of truly remarkable things if they have the drive and are helped by someone that believes in them. I've seen people crippled by horrendous accidents learn to walk again despite a number of doctors saying it was impossible.

Really, who are you to say what she's capable of? Do you really know better than her what's inside her head?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
cuz, I new you weren't joking with the quality of instructor bit.


Aha, this is about the wink my azz bit? Fair enough - I was being good natured about it, but the more you post the less I respect your ability to teach.




What I say here doesn't mean I'm not teaching her well. Just that I think she is on fruitless quest too late in her life. A poke in the eye with your keys, a karate chop to the neck or a knee to the groin is NOT even remotely good self defense. I think a lot of instructors have been passing off weak excuse for self defense. I am not going to delude someone into thinking they can handle themselves if they won't do the training for it.


Then it's up to her to do the training and up to you to instill in her exactly how much training is involved.

[Becca]

One of my mother's friends succesfully defended herself by holding her keys between her fingers and raking an attacker's face. He actually tried to sue her for "permanant disfigurment". He lost, thank god. The last thing we need is to punish people for stopping a rape.

[Former castleva]

Never Ever do say Never Ever.

[Oso]

serpent, et al: think what you what about my teaching ability but you are doing yourselves a disservice, and probably those around you as well, by thinking that anyone and everyone is capable of learning to defend themselves against a physical attack.

becca, I am sincerely glad that your mother's friends succeeded in defending herself. If the key thing worked for her then great. Despite the fact that that concept has been taught umpteen million times doesn't mean it is a winner. The chance of cutting yourself is too great and actually stabilizing the keys in your hand enough to actually convey force to the target is very difficult.


Then it's up to her to do the training and up to you to instill in her exactly how much training is involved.

serp, you are correct: to this point she has not succesfully done any of the hard physical training that I have laid out for her and questioned me as to whether she would have to do those things on a regular basis. She has complained about her back, her joints, her bones, etc. from day 1. The last two things on the beginning list are 3 star and falls. I've held these off, and may hold them off longer, so as not to discourage her too much. How is she going to learn to take the shock of being slammed to the ground by an attacker if she doesn't fall down some. 3-star could be argued to be a traditional exercise and not necessary for SD but I value it as an exercise to teach timing as well as a conditioning the arms. You need timing to succesfully intercept an incoming attack.


I've seen people crippled by horrendous accidents learn to walk again despite a number of doctors saying it was impossible.

That's not really apples to apples. Sure, it's a great internal accomplishment over a disability but SD is concerned with accomplishing something AGAINST someone else. Yes, you have to have the internal strength to not collapse immediately before an attack but in the end you still have to overcome them physically.


Really, who are you to say what she's capable of? Do you really know better than her what's inside her head?

Having the resolve to come into someplace to try and learn is one thing, and a good one at that. I AM in a position, and have the training, to make a call about what she is capable of physically AS DEMONSTRATED BY HER ACTIONS AND VERBAL COMPLAINTS ABOUT WHAT SHE HAS BEEN ASKED TO DO SO FAR.

I feel it's my job to direct her now that she has come to me and I feel she would be better served by learning to shoot a pistol.

I feel that she thinks I'm going to go easier on her because she is older and has physical complaints. And that would be the worst thing I could do to/for her.

Seriously, this is a small, older woman with apparent physical limitations. How can anyone say, from a tactical point of view, that mixing it up with an attacker physically is the best strategy for her?

[Royal Dragon]

You know, being a teacher myself, I have had these types on numerous occasions. The best thing you can do, it continue to condidtion her, and don't let her advance too far in rank till she's got her basiscs down. I'd tell her what she really needs right now is a "Martial Yoga" program, and have her do lots of stance work followed by some light evade/kick/punch drills Don't even have her try to block anything. Her best bet is going to be footwork and postioning followd by the over emphasised "Eye Jab" to slow the attacker down and runnning away.

If it was me (And I did this once), I bought a bunch of cheap key ring pepper spray samples and gave them to all the moms who were learning from me after their kids classes. I said it was to "hold them" till they got the skills to do it themselves.

[Oso]

RD, it's not about the rank advancement. She quits before pushing the envelope at all. That's not necessarily a mark against her personally, it's just what her body is capable of.

I'll keep trying as I do with anyone who keeps coming to class.


And, imo, consumer pepper spray is also a pretty poor sd fall back. It takes training and presence to apply it just like any other technique and the over the counter stuff at wal-mart etc. is not very strong.

[Shaolin-Do]

I used to have pepper spray on a key chain, because people getting rolled by 5-6 dudes against 1 is a big problem here... I planned on spraying the group then selectively knocking them out..... But the sh!t broke in my pocket and ran all over my leg before I ever had to use it.
:)

I say you should just work the old bat until she drops. 1 good solid day of work. Maybe she will like it and work a little harder and stop complaining, maybe she'll quit.
Im very very tired.
hehehe.
:D

[earnest]

thanks for the responses.

[Oso]

:) Gene should add a warning pop up when ever you post a new thread: Something to the effect of "There is no guarantee your questions will be answered or how many different jerks (myself included) will railroad your thread for their personal statements.";)

good luck in your training.

[earnest]

that is part of the joy of the email forum-
you never know where it is going, but even so, much of interest is discovered by 'accident'

also, that is much better than a forum where you are ignored if you are not recognized as one on the cognoscente.

thanks for the good wishes

[African Tiger]

Nope. I started at 30, with a bad back and a set of bad knees. 4 years later, I still have the bad back and one bad knee...

.....and some seriously fast hands! :p

[ZIM]

also, that is much better than a forum where you are ignored if you are not recognized as one on the cognoscente. Any in particular? [ignore that ;)]

I was giving Oso's prob a little thot, and was thinkin' along these lines: Have you considered throwing a seminar on scenario-based SD? Just kinda throw it out to the class, see the interest for it? With good enough scenarios, she might see what she's up against, maybe do it with another instructor, if there's any you respect/work with/whatever.

[Oso]

ZIM, overall I think your suggestion is a good idea. It would certainly suit the purpose of showing her what she might be up against.

I've long had the idea for a series of SD seminars and have them scetched out on paper. It would be an 8 week course, once a week. I am of the opinion that these single session SD classes you see all over the place are placing a false sense of confidence in the attendees. The only thing worse than not knowing what to do is thinking you do when you don't. Going to a single class and never drilling what you learned will get you into trouble. But, that doesn't really have anything to do with this situation.

I'm going to talk to her after class and try and find out more about what she is after.

thanks for the further input.

[Nevermind]

Check out Zhong Yi Martial Arts in Madison, Wisconsin. They teach Northern Shaolin and I do believe they have a San Shou competition team as well. I've heard good things about them. By the way, who says 34 is too old? It's all in your mind. Now quit feeling sorry for yourself and start training! :D

[Shaolin-Do]

And after that, just sit back and relax yourself with my state of the art asian masseuse 3000. Just turn her on and let her go!
Only 1,000,000 Y. (yen)


Sorry.... seemed kinda sales pitchy.
had to jump in.

[greendragon]

I heard Madison has some world class AIKIDO. I started Aikido when i was 50 and like it. But then I was already a KungFu freakin' Superman !!