Loosing faith in MA!

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.


I am starting to loose faith in a lot of Martial Artists.

Namely ones that keep insisting that their style/system needs to proof itself in fighting competitions.

If you REALLY and TRULY know your style/system than it shouldn't matter if some practicioners can win in the ring.

The way I see those guys need the reassurance of those wins that they are studying an effective system and not wasting their time.

IMO, it reflects on their training and the doubts hat they have off their own capabilites rather than the system/style.

[joedoe]

I think it is horses for courses. Some people feel the need to keep testing, others are happy to learn what they can and leave it at that. I don't think either is right or wrong.

For example, I have a training brother who likes to visit other schools and see how they train and touch hands with them (always politely of course). I think he does this as a way of measuring his progress. I don't like doing that but I do like to meet players from other arts because I like to find out about other arts. Touching hands is optional :)

[Laughing Cow]

Joedoe.

I am not talking about NOT testing your MA, this should be part of your standard training already.
Naturally there are different levels and venues for testing your MA.

I am talking about the guys that scream someone (not me) needs to enter NHB fights to proof that my system can win there.
:rolleyes:

[joedoe]

OK. I am with you on that I guess :)

[rogue]

Someone posted this on the WC Forum and my response.

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I understnad that wing chun is for the street and for self defense but that shouldn't preclude it from being a viable style to train for nhb fights.
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Let's face facts, most arts are taught to be used only within the confines of their kwoon/dojang/dojo. Stop deluding yourself.


If you REALLY and TRULY know your style/system than it shouldn't matter if some practicioners can win in the ring. But the question is do you really and truly know that your system works? I know that my TKD and karate skills work to the degree that they are tested in the dojang and dojo, someone like MerryPrankster knows that his BJJ and MMA skills work to the degree that they are tested in the gym and the ring. Let's guess who the better conditioned and trained fighter is, and who will more than likely be succesful on the street.

[Laughing Cow]

rogue.

Like I said the testing should be part and parcel of your training, if you can't find the desired level in the Dojo/Dojang/Kwoon than you will need to look for outside venues.

One thing that took my Tui Shou to a different level was joining a Tui Shou group that meets informally on weekends and has practicioner from different styles and backgrounds.

IMO simply cooses to test his skill further in a different venue.

[rogue]

IMO simply chooses to test his skill further in a different venue. I agree, but we still have to be honest with ourselves about the degree to which we know if our skills will work. Even the competitive fighter has to be honest about this. A friend of mine told me about a fellow kickboxer who thought he was pretty badass until he got dumped on his shoulder in a dumb fight over a parking space.

At the very best we're all just simulating a spontaneous fight some are just getting closer than others.

[Shaolin-Do]

As soon as my shoulder is better Im going to start going up to a TKD school near my house, and a Karate school to fight. Only like 1 time a week, but Im going to the TKD school to fight the instructor :)
I train with my friends from other MA's and I honestly feel that it does take your training up a couple of notches, gets you more used to things other than what you see daily in the kwoon. Some tech's may seem kinda @ss backwards, but hey, im just there to beat up on them :)

[Merryprankster]

I fail to see how "Royce won so BJJ rocks," is any worse than "Ancient master so-and-so mastered hairy palm kung fu and defeated 30 9 foot tall giant armed barbarians so since I do the same style I must be learning "very powerful" techniques.

Pot? This is kettle.... YOU'RE BLACK!


I don't point to Royce or Kerr or Nog and say "grappling rocks." I can point to my own accomplishments. I know exactly what I can and can't do.


FWIW, I don't want "faith," in a martial art. Ask the dead men in the boxer rebellion how "faith" works in self-defense.

[Suntzu]

"What do you mean I'm BLACK!!!"
see no evil, hear no evil was on the other day... Gene and Richard are the funniest...

have faith and not be sure or test and KNOW that it worked THIS TIME…

[Merryprankster]

And pray it works again!

[Shaolin-Do]

I wish I had people down to spar here.
Oh well... WD should be down before long and ewallace supposed to begin training by then....

[Dark Knight]

With all the time I hang around this forum I see more CMA people wory about MMA then MMA worry about what CMA people do.

The concern seems to be an insecurity among a lot of KF people that they are as good as a MMA fighter. Then all the post come up "I would elbow him on the way in", I would strike the eyes" "Tigers Claw".....

The Gracies have commented that the reason they are so successful is because they train like they fight. Matt Thorton is big on aliveness, not the style.

The sport styles (not all are pure sport but have a sport side) tend to be more effective because they train against an opponent the same way they would fight.

And they practice elbows, kicks, palms.....

Stop worrying about what MMA people do, change your raining but not your style and see how well it works when you have gloves on.

BTW, over on mma.tv you rarely hear about KF, over here you always hear about MMA.

[Dark Knight]

Shaolin do, come on up to Northern Va and Ill spar with you, as long as you dont mind sparring with an old guy ;)

[sweaty_dog]

Styles don't need to be proven in NHB. They can be proven by police, prison guards, bouncers or any people who can handle themselves in some kind of fight. The important thing is that they don't get complacent, think they don't need to test themselves at all and make all kinds of claims on how well they perform based on theory. Theories are all well and good but they need to be TESTED one way or another, and I personally don't feel that friendly sparring is the only way to do it. Wins in mixed competition don't mean a whole lot, but they do add to the sum of what we know about how different techniques and training methods work in application. Having each style hiding away by itself while the real meaning of its movements is gradually lost is not any kind of future for martial arts. It is also important that a style can consistently produce effective students, not just one every hundred years.


As far as individuals go, I would say that if you haven't tested your own skills, then you have no idea what you can and can't do. I would say that includes a lot of us in martial arts. If you haven't defeated or escaped multiple opponents, you don't know if you can do that. If you haven't taken a knife from an attacker, you don't know if your knife disarms work, etc etc. Sure, training can give you a clue, but maybe in real life you will freeze or forget all your technique (or find out it doesn't work). Personally I HOPE that I will be able to do what I practise in the gym in real life, but as far as most situations go I just don't know.

[Dark Knight]

I wanted to add that fighting another person will give you timing and other skills you will not develop in drills. Trying techniques against a willing partner will not train you how to react when they dont do what you want or expect. It wont teach you how to get close enough to grab him or strike him.

Drills and forms are part of our training, but without live training against someone else, you are missing the important lessons that will hurt when its time.

[apoweyn]

"Losing faith" is actually a really good title for this thread. I think that's what it's all about. Operating on faith vs. operating with empirical feedback.

I agree with you, Laughing Cow, that it needn't necessarily be competition. As long as you're testing conclusions. Applying the scientific method. And processing the feedback you receive. Rather than taking things purely on faith.

That said, when NASA wants to test heat shielding (for example), they're going to want to perform the most intense and arduous test they can. Right? So while I'm not big on competition personally, if I'm going to go to the trouble of testing conclusions, I do believe that it should be conducted in as arduous a manner as you can manage. And in terms of intensity, commitment to do harm, fatigue, etc., competition tends to have facets to it that sparring in the classroom does not.

Few real contributors here would say, "6 years of law enforcement experience means nothing; you have to compete!" Intense experience is intense experience. And I think most people would agree that the former is even more intense than the latter. But it's not surprising that many competitors look at the type of sparring that goes on within a given school as being dubious. Not just 'soft' schools either. Many school sparring sessions are going to be limited by the techniques practiced within that school. So people are still going to get a less inclusive and intensive experience than they would in a more open format (such as NHB).

But in this case, as in most others, "the truth is in the pudding." If your sparring is inclusive and intensive, then it is. 'Nuff said.


Stuart B.

[Water Dragon]

I don't think it's really about winning, or showing the world what you can do. It's more about getting out there and trying to apply what you have "learned" against someone who doesn't want you to do it to them, and wants to do their stuff on you.

First you try it in your school, with your friends who are doing the same thing as you. Then you go out and do it against other people who aren't as familiar with your technique, but also bring things to the game that you're not familiar with.

Instead of winning and losing, it's more of, "Hmmm, now that didn't work out quite like I expected it to. Why not? What did I do wrong? OK, now I need to go back and retrain my forms/drills/techniques like this instead of what I was doing before."

Sport fighting is just a real nice way of getting that. It doesn't have to be MMA/San Shou/etc. But it should be there, and it should be against good people from other fighting systems. Beating up the guy who knows 100 forms but has never sparred a day in their life isn't going to do much good for anything (except maybe for your ego)

-edit-
And it's all about doing it in a safe, friendly envirionment where your mistakes wont get you killed.

[ewallace]

Should have put "people from other fighting systems" in bold WD.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by apoweyn
"Losing faith" is actually a really good title for this thread.

Certainly a better title than "Loosing faith".








:D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by FatherDog


Certainly a better title than "Loosing faith".


:D

LOL

The 'professional' proofreader didn't even notice that. [sigh]

[Rockwood]

I guess from what people are saying that the key is to test your art. However you choose to do it, the more intense the test the better. Very few things are as intense as fighting in a cage in a speedo in front of thousands of screaming drunks. Even if you were a great fighter, it would take a very strong heart to fight in those conditions. I suppose some people just have a natural affinity for that situation. Praise the gods I don't.

My only problem with sport fighting is not that it's not realistic enough, it's is a good tool for learning how to fight people. But when it becomes a sport, you train to WIN at the game, not to become a better fighter or whatever you want to become.

The goal changes from wanting to be better at martial arts to: WIN this game, now, whatever it takes. When all you want to do is win, you can gloss over some of the other things you can learn in martial arts, like knowledge of your self.

At that point you are training to spar, not sparring as part of your training.

Two different, but equally difficult, goals.

-IMHO, Jess O

[rogue]

Rockwood,
It's not all about testing your art but testing yourself and learning what you really know what you can do with your art.

Personally I enjoy winning. I enjoy when I win at work, win while sparring in the dojang and win on the street. Winning is good. And I'd rather look ugly and beat the "better fighter" than loose.:)

[Black Jack]

I don't think a person has to be "100% right" in this regard as its all a personal choice and it can tend to become a style verus style diatribe.

It may not have anything to do with the topic but for some reason I feel this quote would fit.

Stolen and paraphrased from the legendary Proffessor Florendo Visitacion which I picked up in a book somewhere.

"Their are no better styles, only better practicioners."


If you don't like my misspelling...eat me.

[Rockwood]

rogue,
I'm with you, I hate to loose. But I see that becoming a better martial artist means doing whatever it takes to do that, not necessarily winning a sparring match at all costs.

I've never been accused of looking pretty, that would take a real twisted mind. I just want to get better at martial arts.

My ego would rather win in any situation. But if I want to get better at something specific, I might fail a few (or more) times in the process. Loosing to a better fighter, in a sparring match, might be the best lesson you've ever had. It was for me anyways.

Sport fighting tends to discourage this kind of thinking. My goal is to get better at martial arts. Not to win every conflict or contest I get into.

Luckily I have a desk job, so I don't have to win fights to bring home a paycheck, which is the goal of fighting sports. Martial arts is a hobby to me, thank the gods.

On the street is another story. I will do my best to win, and use any possible tactic. It has very little to do with martial arts at that point.

Sport fighting can be a useful tool in training martial arts but it is not the goal. That's the difference between sports and martial arts as I see it.

-Jess O

[jun_erh]

If you ask me, Brazilian Ju Jitsu was a little like the internet boom. Alot of those guys are getting totally krunked up in PRIDE and other fights because most competitors train extensively in groundfighting now. and kickboxing

[rubthebuddha]

that, and royce is choking the funk out of everyone. :)

realistically, i think it's healthy to have your interest, your confidence, your faith, your general attitude toward martial arts wax and wane. if it doesn't, check your pulse -- you may be dead, or you may be a robot. interest in any one thing is rarely constant. however, just consider something very worthwhile if it maintains your interest and your confidence throughout the good and bad times.

kinda like a significant other or job. or even mountain dew. there have been times when my love for the dew lessened, but i always came back to it. :)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"If you haven't taken a knife from an attacker, you don't know if your knife disarms work"

or if they'll work again like mp said. i have seen shuul vis pluck a knife out of someone's hand but i wouldnt dare him to do it again.