reality for wing chunners these days

[flaco]

i feel(my personal opinion)is that all wc or wt guys need to at least grapple for a few years, and if your attitude is that you don't need to, that your so good with wc, then fine. but my reality is, that in order to defend against something, you ought to know how it's done. just as great wt or wc organizations all wised up, and learned kali for its weapons and knife stuff, many smart wt owc guys are learning grappling.

many guys on the street today, do bjj or sombo, or whatever. where it was ***gy to go to a gung fu class, and wear a uniform in the past, the neighborhood tough guys have no problem putting on a gi, to learn how to choke and break things. i grappled for 4 years, and im glad i did. im no pro, or no great fighter, im average, so dont get offended by my post, it is my reality. maybe you disagree, thats ok.

i feel that if you at least attain a high blue belt in bjj, that you have a good grip on the strategy, and weaknesses and strengths of the art. you dont need to do this with every art, but in honesty, mostb people who fight, are training in mt and bjj these days.so in order for your wc to go beyond theory, i recommend you trying bjj or sombo for a year or two.only if you are into real fighting. for all the wc guys training for self defense or hobby,etc, it fine to just train wc.

again, i know some people only need wt or wc, and they can handle most, so i exclude those exceptional people, anyone else, i want no negative threads, im not here to argue, either you agree,or don't, but lets be mature about it.

[AndrewS]

No argument.

Grappling is much fun, and your ability to deal with anything increases with your familiarity with it.


Later,

Andrew

[Edmund]

An everyday person may get no exposure to any martial arts at all. For them to find something in an art like WC is a good thing.

Very few people devote 4 years to anything. Even to spend a few hours a week trying to learn something real like WC.

Not everyone is going to want to do BJJ and Sambo. (OR weapons) If they find they have an interest in WC, they shouldn't be put off for not living up to your standards of street fighting excellence.

Why preach on their case for not doing grappling?
Some don't want to do it. This is a hobby for most people. If they get good at WC they will be happy. Get your head around that concept.

People are interested in WC on this forum mostly. You should post on the Street Fighting forum.

You're like those gun nuts who think everyone should own, wear and learn to shoot a gun for thier own safety.

[AndrewS]

I resent being characterized as a 'gun nut'. I have one 12 gauge for home defense. Given that I live in Los Angeles, a city which will require I eat my neighbors when it collapses next, I should have a 12 gauge, shotgun speedloader, a Mossberg 20 gauge for my girlfriend, at least two hand guns (of the same caliber), an assualt rifle for plinking, and one good rifle for hunting. That's conservative and sane.

Having lived in the American South, this is a not atypical armory selection, and hardly one which a 'nut' has.

When you have two miniguns slaved together, a gatling gun, multiple blackpowder rifles, hang out at the local gun shop and range all the time, and spend more 10% of your salary and more than one weekend every two months at gun shows, then you're a gun nut.

God, I wish I was a gun nut. I just don't have the time with all the hand to hand training I do. H*ll, I can't even find time for armored edged weapons work. . .

Andrew

[planetwc]

I agree with your comments.

[Edmund]

But West Hollywood is so beautiful, dude.
The whole of America is very friendly.

Must be because everyone is scared of being shot.
(Or grappled apparently)

I saw a fistfight in the subway every day for 4 days in Paris. And they weren't hardass looking guys. Just regular old people started arguing and then throwing punches.

[AndrewS]

Ed Yuen is that you????

Did you wind up taking that thai match?

What's been up?

Andrew

[zultan]

where does everyone hang out that they will run into grapplers in here?if you have to defend yourself on the street the chances are pretty slim that the person will be skilled in bjj.i dont think most bjj folks go around mugging people or starting fights.where is this big fight that you are preparing for?the ufc?if you go out and get into alot of fights maybe you need to train your character more than your martial skills.i would be more worried about someone slicing me open with a blade than putting an armbar on me on a dark street.

[Edmund]

Yeah it's me!
I knew it was you ( There's only 1 Andrew thats always wanting two miniguns! What's up with that?!).

The promoter never got back to us.
Guess he found someone else.

It's not that easy to get on a card here.
Even for Mr Monday Night, everyone's favourite wrestler, The Whole ******* Show, E-V-D!

Not much up... Wish I could get another trip to the States. But due to a downturn in our chip business I'm just happy to be still working. We've had a few lay-offs.

How's it going?

[AndrewS]

Hey Ed,

welcome to the KFO thing. This place is pretty entertaining, and I've caught up with some great folks off of it.

Life's been way busy for me- starting to teach seriously, and training hard.

Thanks for dropping Pavel's name, btw- I've become the complete Party freak, and actually have sucked my girlfriend into lifting with me (you know it's love when she'll do 10x5 squats with you in 40 minutes). Are you familiar w/ Ian King? <www.kingsport.net>

I just started formal grappling training- working with a good purple belt of JJ Machado's who fights NHB and Muay Thai, and am having mad fun with that, after checking out John Machado's, Gokor's, and Rickson's.

Let me know when you're running through LA again. I've been wandering around some electroclash clubs with extremely pretty scenery.

Glad to see you here classing up the joint,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

Hey Flaco,

I don't think most people have bjj or sambo or even judo training, but I do think football and wrestling (especially in the US, rugby too in other places) are so well spread and well funded in the school system that the odds of you stumbling across someone who knows how to tackle or shoot and has trained on an almost daily basis against skilled, athletic, *resistant* opponents is much higher than finding a similarly trained stand up fighter (no NCAA TKD or Muay Thai or WCK conferences...) that unless you've already personally experimented and determined you can handle the general types of attacks you could face from someone who will try to ground and pound you, you could very well learn the har way in reality. And just like you wouldn't want to learn stand up, much less WCK from a Gracie or Dan Gable, you probably don't want to learn ground prevention and recovery (fighting is a more involved endeavor) from a WCK person. Always go for the best, most specific, most experienced instruction possible (just like you wouldn't go to a pediatrist for a neuro-consult, a butcher for organic produce tips, or a cobbler to make you wedding tux).

Hey Ed,

How's it going? Be careful, Andrew S posts here...

Andrew,

I'm jealous of your time management skills. How do you fit it all in???!!!

[[Censored]]

Have you found yourselves unable to hit the grappler as they come in?

[InjuryProne]

Well depending on where you live, there is a 'decent' chance that you will run into a high school wrestler looking to brawl. Some of these guys LIKE to fight. Same goes for other jock types such as football, rugby players. Especially in a bar or club atmosphere (which i dont frequent anymoer). Also, in any gym, there are meatheads roided up and ready to crush your skull in. The people i have mentioned are who i train to fight against. Not ufc leevl fighters (this would be impossible to train for obviously even if you did). It doesn't take much for someone to "force" you to grapple with them. Particularly when they're bigger, stronger, or you're not looking.

Back in my drunken college days, after a couple of years of hard training in kenpo, ive done the "wrong" thing by NOT backing down from a ****ing content. On almost every occasion, the guy was bigger, stronger, with no training. Alhtough i never got seriously hurt (and never serously hurt anyone else), grappling whether it be stand up or ground would have helped ME.

On the other hand, if i was a hardcore wing chun guy like some ive seen, The only ground fighting would've been the drunk frat boy fighting for consciousness on the ground after being punched to oblivion.

To each his own i say. But im convinced that for me, grappling is a "safety". For instance, one time at a party a guy basically tackled me from behind to start the fight. No amount of wing chun would have helped there. if i had been a better grappler, i would have ended up on my feet much quicker than i did and i prolly wouldn't have had to "trade" punches like i did.

Ive seen fights between jock frats and football players that involved "tackles". I'm sorry but unless your a superb striker, the likelyhood of ending the fight before a grappling struggle ensues is pretty slim from what ive seen.


Originally posted by zultan
where does everyone hang out that they will run into grapplers in here?if you have to defend yourself on the street the chances are pretty slim that the person will be skilled in bjj.i dont think most bjj folks go around mugging people or starting fights.where is this big fight that you are preparing for?the ufc?if you go out and get into alot of fights maybe you need to train your character more than your martial skills.i would be more worried about someone slicing me open with a blade than putting an armbar on me on a dark street.

[reneritchie]

One thing to keep in mind with rugby players, footballs players, and to some extent wrestlers (ever see a cross face applied in real wrestling tournaments? close to a forearm smash), is that they are used to getting hit, taking the hit, and continuing on with their gameplan. This makes them pretty darn stress resistant and you really have to hit them properly to do damage enough to disuade them, nevermind stop the momentum of their charge (and there are other things in addition to hitting you'll likely have to do to prevent them taking a punch and just landing on top of you anyway). You'll need to do various things to break their directional alignment, mess up their balance, play with their momentum, etc. You'll have to do it with the proper timing, the proper skill, and most importantly, you'll have to do it well under stress and pressure. This all equates to training, of course, and not against a dummy, wooden or otherwise.

There's also, perhaps especially for women but not just women, a chance you'll be physically assaulted while *already* down (sleeping in your bed, lying on the beach or in the park, half-@ssed on the bar floor after slipping on spilled beer).

And, let's not forget, WCK is pretty darn good at takedowns and ground'n'pounding as well, so knowing what to do can prevent your getting mugged by evil WCK ninja as well 8P

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

time management? Well, it all starts with my first pot of coffee of the day. . . ephedra has occasionally been involved . . .

I also moved out here to a job which I can fit my training schedule into, which is luckily about 4 miles from where I live. Where I live is about 1/2 a mile from my school (no coincidence), and I'm rolling with a guy who's about 2 miles from my place.

Later,

Andrew

[zultan]

i dont mean to bash training in bjj at all,i think it can definately help.im mainly commenting on all the comparisons with wing chun and nhb.i also forget how juiced up jocks can get out there.bad call on my part folks

[flaco]

to mr negative--i also stated in my post, that if wc is a hobby for you, fine, so i see no reason you kinda got ****ed. i am talking about wc, so theres no need for me to go to the streetfighting forum. all martial arts are for self defense.

for the posetive post--thanks for your input guys, and unfortunately, here in ny, many roidheads, and tough guys study bjj, theres even a school in my neighborhood, that in order to get in, they take you to a bar, and pick out the biggest dude, and you have to start a fight with him. i have former friends who are in that school, and they go out every weekend, and start fights, choking people in clubs,and bars,etc

now, im against what they do, but they can fight, and when im in town,out with my girlfriend, its scary to run into people like this, so i also know of other schools with the same mindset, and alot of college and high school wrestlers also love starting fights.so, unfortunately, the ufc, and the attitude of gracies stepping on their opponents head after a victory, or tito ortiz giving the finger after he knocks someone out, has appealed to many people, more so than the philosophy and peaceful side of martial arts.

in the end, these things are needed for growth, look at gjj, they killed everyone in the past, then they start losing, and the art was outdated, now they have added greco roman takedowns, and sombo leglocks, and some mt, and the art is again much better. many people who never put their butt on the line, to grow, really think their art is still all that, and they fall behind. i really hope to see a good nhb wc guy someday, it would really boost the arts reputation as a good combat art.

anyway, just my two cents, and thanks for the replies

[[Censored]]

Can anyone give a simple answer to my simple question?

[Edmund]

Hi Andrew (and Rene)!


Are you familiar w/ Ian King? <www.kingsport.net>

Nope and the link didn't work!

I've been lifting a bit as well.
Same sort of routine. No Kettlebells. :)

[AndrewS]

Hey Ed,

try <www.kingsports.net>.


Later,

Andrew

[Edmund]

Flaco,

I am Mr Positive.

You said all wc or wt guys need to at least grapple for a few years.

See "gun nut" reference.
It's like saying everyone should carry guns, or knives, or do weights or eat raw vegetables.... It's all for their own good apparently.

A lot of people don't want to!
On the forum most do want to do WC though....

Your fears are not necessarily other people's reality! They deal in their own world and pursue their interests not yours.

Hell, I've been out at night in NY. It was great. No problems. Aside from people putting their trash straight on the footpath with no bins.

You want a NHB WC guy? Cool. I agree.
But *everyone* doing a few years of grappling...
Hell Why?

Reputations are funny things. It depends on what circles you move in

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Can anyone give a simple answer to my simple question?

Sure, what was your question again?


Originally posted by [Censored]
Have you found yourselves unable to hit the grappler as they come in?

No, as of this time in my training that has not been a problem.

Threre, a nice simple answer, how's that for service? :D






orgiinally posted by InjuryProne
For instance, one time at a party a guy basically tackled me from behind to start the fight. No amount of wing chun would have helped there.

I disagree. While no amount of any non-jedi training wuold have allowed you to avoid a suprise hit like that, a soild grounding in chum kiu would have prepared you to end up in a better position on the ground and get back up safely, if the tackler wasn't to skilled on the ground.

Look at the turning section with the double 'lan sau' after you land, assumeing you have no time to react before then, you could have turned yourself around and tried to keep you elbows and knees close to your body, to avoid hits.

Flaco -
i have former friends who are in that school, and they go out every weekend, and start fights, choking people in clubs,and bars,etc

Can you tell me the name of this school or any of the bars, i've a personal injury lawer that would love that kind of business :P

As to the origianal point of the thread, as has already been stated by wiser folks than I, WC is not designef with the ring in mind, it is not optimized for that kind of preformance. Sure, a very skilled, very athletic person could take WC and use it in the ring, but if I were going to fight NHB/MMA type fight all the time, i wouldn't train in WC, i'd pick a style, or set of styles, that would allow me to use my entire arsenel in the ring, and then train that for 8 hours a day. But i'm not, that doesn't interest me much. :)

[Edmund]

try <www.kingsports.net>.

Took a look.

I think he was the conditioning coach of the Brisbane Broncos - the rugby league team of my hometown.

Didn't know he did so much other stuff!
He's trained some Aussie Rules teams and union teams too.

Some funky exercises he wrote for T Mag I can see.
One legged deadlifts and good mornings!

[AndrewS]

Yeah, one legged dead-lifts *rock*!

One of his leg workouts has a nice, simple route to single-leg squats, too- start on a platform with one leg off, add one plate to the platform every workout.

He's big on the unilateral exercise thing, which I'm a fan of.

Later,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

[Censored] I answered your question, though perhaps not simple.

I've found myself able to hit grapplers coming in, but that's not a good WCK solution. Why? It depends far too much on luck or on overwhelming superiority of force (akin to Karate's "one punch kill" strategy).

As I said, many "grapplers" (and I'm including football, rugby, and other well funded tackle sports in there) are used to taking hits and continuing on with their game plan.

IMHO, WCK doesn't focus on the "one punch kill" idea; its more about balance and momentum, IMHO, and recovery when/if errors happen. It's a *system* but it needs to be trained.

[ntc]

Censored:

The answer to your question from my end is "no"..... I have worked out with both greco-roman wrestlers, grapplers, and shuai chiao fighters, and have absolutely had not problems hitting or trapping them.

[[Censored]]

I'm sorry but unless your a superb striker, the likelyhood of ending the fight before a grappling struggle ensues is pretty slim from what ive seen.

It seems to me that if you've put substantial time and effort into Wing Chun training, and you are NOT a superb striker, something has gone terribly wrong. And if you are not putting time and effort in, you will fail regardless of your approach.

I've found myself able to hit grapplers coming in, but that's not a good WCK solution. Why? It depends far too much on luck or on overwhelming superiority of force (akin to Karate's "one punch kill" strategy).

LOL, punching depends on luck? I think you're funning with me.
If I hit so hard that my opponent is in mortal danger, does that mean I must be doing Karate and not Wing Chun?

What does Wing Chun do better than anyone else, in your opinion?

As I said, many "grapplers" (and I'm including football, rugby, and other well funded tackle sports in there) are used to taking hits and continuing on with their game plan.

So they are used to taking hits. And Wing Chun people are used to giving hits, I hope. The greatest gongfu will prevail?

IMHO, WCK doesn't focus on the "one punch kill" idea; its more about balance and momentum, IMHO, and recovery when/if errors happen.

IMHO, a strike without stopping power is worthless, and Wing Chun without strikes is impotent.

[reneritchie]

[Censored]

Punching with the timing and power necessary to stop an equally experienced grappler from taking you to the ground during a non-play (ie. stress) situation is not something any serious MAist should leave to an odds equation. There are too many things that can go wrong, even if you are a darn good striker, and when things go wrong in that situation, you will be the worse for it, not the grappler. Heck, let's say you do get the perfect strike at the perfect time and knock the grappler out, right on top of you, where his girth (dead weight is a beeyotch if you don't know how to move beneath it) pins you just long enough for his friends to start tap dancing on your face.

IMHO, striking *while doing several other things* is a far more robust, realistic approach. You need to alter the positional dynamic so their charge is not coming straight into your center, you need to alter their physical alignment so their legs aren't driving them in a unified direction from head to toe (arms included). You need to create a dynamic relationship wherein, even if you miss your perfect punch, you are still *fine*, and not the gum on the bottim of their ground'n'pound shoe.

Will the greatest Kung-Fu prevail? In theory, and in movies. Life sucks, however, and Murphy was an optimist. If someone takes your best punch, laughs and splits an evil gapped toothed grin, you better have something else in your bag (actually, should have had something else from the get go).

What does WCK do better than anyone else in my opinion? Not punch. In fact, nothing. WCK doesn't do anything. It's just a system to improve fighting skill. It doesn't fight for us and isn't a magic blue pill. If we let it, however, it can help us learn to control ourselves and our opponent in a stress situation. Does that mean punching? That's just a tool, an element. Maybe use it, maybe not. Maybe I can just change the line and slam the grappler into a wall, or over a railing, or dump him on his shoulder, or whatever. Maybe I can punch and use it to setup the next part of my offense, or to transition in between different parts of my offense.

Stopping power is an illusion. A punch that will stop someone half my body weight with no chin is not the same punch that will stop someone twice my size with a chin of granite. I don't train for the former.

[BetaSao]

There are certain points (eg, Bai Hui on the GV channel, and the TaiYang points, as well as some of the points on the GB and Liver channels) are very prone to a focused, penetrating, pointed strike. These strikes will induce dizziness, loss of consciousness, or numbness, regardless of whether the person is muscular or not. So, regardless of what type of grappler you are (footballer, wrestler, UFC fighter, etc.), if you are aware of the body mechanics and some of the vulnerable targets in the body, then you should not have to rely on brute power. Hit smart!

[Grabula]

don't think I am picking on you specifically here Censored, but I find that a lot of strikers talk about hitting someone as they come in as a good defense against grappling. I have also seen a few fights, not sure how many, some live, some on video/dvd and some on the internet, where this has been tried, mainly to no avail.
I can't explain why, possibly these guys are all just really tough? Who knows, what I do know is that the single head shot doesn't seem to be the answer to the whole grappling question. I fanyone has tried it successfully or seen it pulled off I would like to hear about it.
I think no matter how good a winghcun guy you are, atleast training a little grappling here and there would probably get you a long way, longer anyway then no training at all.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is necessary, especially as flaco pointed out, for the hobbyist. however I do believe any well rounded martial artist will look at it seriously.

[reneritchie]

Ryan Parker, a noted Okinawan pressure point stylist, entered the NHB cage to show the effectiveness of PPS in real application. Unfortunately, he was somewhat less than effective.

I'm not sure there are real examples of people using them under pressure against competant, resistant opponents to make them part of a high-percentage defensive system. (and FWIW, many grappling tournaments allow pressure point manipulation -- since they don't consider it makes a difference at all).

WRT the one punch knockout, its happened, sometimes due to excellent timing (Silva vs. Newton), but just as often a lucky break (Shembri vs. Sakuraba or Henderson vs. Renzo). For me it goes back to being low-percentage, and risky if anything goes wrong. For me, WCK is not about low percentage techniques, its about robust, layered, systematized strategies that can cope with competant, resistant opponents and the errors that may occur during a stress situation.

[anerlich]

I have a blue belt in Machado BJJ.

BJJ is absolutely fascinating and so much fun. Much more so than WC for me at the moment.

I've lost interest all these endless theoretical discussions. Some people may feel a need to prove Wing Chun more effective than anything and without need of revision or innovation, perhaps not just to feed their egos or avoid admitting some things to themselves, but I am not one of them.

It just ain't that important.

[flaco]

edmund, if you dont want to grapple, thats cool, but im talking about people who really are into the self defense part, and knowing if their art really works or not. remember, every tkd school is filled with people who think that one step sparring, and light sparring prepeares them for reality. and again, some of the tkd guys can fight.

but on a whole, many wc people train wc vs. wc, and the odds of facing a guy throwing straight punches and doing lop sau on you is none. also, the nhb thing is a joke, and wc guy allowed to use all his weapons, will mostly lose, if they have not grappled. there is not one guy in nhb that was not taken to the ground.

as far as the lawyer,these guys at that school are paying tons for lawyers, so you missed out.

i would gladly suggest you guys use goggles, and have a guy try to take you down, use all your deadly strikes, etc, and see what happens, go to any high school wrestling team, and try it.

again, wc can beat grappling, but you need to train it against grapplers.you need to perfect timing, etc.

[namron]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Ryan Parker, a noted Okinawan pressure point stylist, entered the NHB cage to show the effectiveness of PPS in real application. Unfortunately, he was somewhat less than effective.

I'm not sure there are real examples of people using them under pressure against competant, resistant opponents to make them part of a high-percentage defensive system. (and FWIW, many grappling tournaments allow pressure point manipulation -- since they don't consider it makes a difference at all).


MMM

I'm not a 100% believer in 'pressure points', especially when I'm a westerner trying to see through eastern cultures eyes (liver meridian, heart5.......)

To me a gwai low westerner they are just a representation of where the nerves or other body weak points are expressed near the surface.

I have watched the pressure point marketers quite a bit (Dilman, wally J etc), they are always done under controlled circumstances (logical) and usually involve some awkward double or triple tap techniques ie: stand on third bone of instep with big toe, strike with knuckle to just below left cheek bone.

I try to keep an open mind however and would willing be a guinea pig for this type of thing if they come to town!

I do think you would be in a worse position trying to go for a pressure point strike on a charging grappling opponent! Once he takes that leg out or lifts and dumps you, your playing his ball game and in his court and he'll just lay on ya until he reckons your tired enough to finish off if not before.

I know some people are big on WC purity and bully for them, however to pick up a few basic skills in ground work doesnt take that long and if it saves you long enough to get up and out of the pot mores the better.

Hes a quote that illustrates IMO a conception of pressure points (source = Department of Anatomical Sciences Adelaide Uni Australia):

'Boxers sometimes lose consciousness when a seemingly harmless blow connects with the chin. When the jaw is even slightly open, the force of the punch is transmitted to the base of the skull across a small area of contact from the jawbone. The resultant large stress jolts the brainstem (which is associated with consciousness) where it passes through an opening in the base of the skull, and the boxer will lose consciousness.

When the teeth are clenched , this contact between the jawbone and the base of the skull is lost, and the force passes between the opposed teeth and into the skull bones. This weakens the stresses the brainstem sustains and loss of consciousness is less likley.'

So tell your students to keep their mouth shut and breath through the nose!
:D

Anerlich, could you give me a short run down on the John Will system, I remember he used to be big on shoot starting from the standup fight position and then working takedowns and matt.

Is this still the way he works?

I asking because I finding limitations with judo syllubus wrt no face contact, ankle/leg locks or wrist locking.

[Edmund]

Flaco,

You stated everyone should do BJJ or sambo for a few years. How does the rest of NY - the ones who have no training at all - survive these gangs of wandering BJJ miscreants?

Your perception of reality is that everyone needs a few years of grappling in case these gangs come to the NY bar you and your girlfriend happen to be in. If people are serious about street self defence, they owe it to themselves to go do BJJ (Before it's too late!! Laws don't stop them! They have good lawyers!!).

You should write a pamphlet for Rorion Gracie.
It's great hyperbole. Perfect advertising strategy.

I kinda though they could just advertise on their merits, but I guess they went the other route.

[flaco]

edmund, i clearly stated my opinion. as far as the gangs, that was just an examle of how even street punks are now grappling, so its a common style.

as far as my advise, dont take it, and hopefully one day you will face reality, and run into a big strong opponent, and try your wc. i know many guys with no training in grappling, who will destroy the average wc guy.

wc was once, and still is(in a few schools) a very street real martial art, my point was, that unfortunately, nowadays, its a money maker because of bruce lee fame.

one of my students is 240 pounds, and when we sparr, yes, i have way better technique, and i can get to his side, and pound him, but, he just uses his brute strength, and can pick me up, and he could easily knock me out with one punch. when it gets close with him and i sparring, i take him to the ground, i totally dominate him.

i am no fan of rorion, bjj is not a superior art, however they train ,the way they fight. we can wrestle full out, all day, and tap if we lose, so on the street, we are ready for a fully resistant opponent. whereas most wc schools, will do chi sau, lop sau, etc.

i have seen boztepes lat sau, and this is a good step towatrd reality sparring,so there are good wc guys out there.like i said, if your into wc, and martial arts as a hobby, thats great, then my post wasnt for you. if your into martial arts and wc for reality, then it was for you.

like i sated, and wc guy looking for realistic training, should grapple for at least a blue belt. grappling is just like wc, we grapple blindfolded, and its all feeling.

some of the best wc guys out there train other arts, gary lam is a great thai boxer, boztepe is great at a few arts, william cheung has even done some bjj after waking up. if you are into reality, then wake up.you can at least train against a grappler to see his strategy.

by no means am i always worried when i go out, i just gave an example of a school i know of.my last fight, never went to the ground, however the guy tried to take me down. trust me, ive been training long enough to known something

again, if its your hobby,why reply? and if you disagree, fine, but if your reality is what happens in your dojo, and you dont go outside the box, you will learn the hard way.my post was only intended to help people.if your so uptight, maybe you are a little insecure? maybe deep down, you have some doubt in your effectiveness, otherwise, why be so defensive?

[Grabula]

edmund, flaco has a valid point and you would be wise to pay attention. Ultimately if you are serious about self defense or fighting or what have you, grappling will be something you approach at some point in your martial life if for no other reason then to understand how it works on the basic level. Blowing it off as needless is in my opinion ignorant. I'm not trying to be derogatory, I am just don't think your attitude was appropriate for what flaco was talking about. He made it quite clear that not everyone is suited for grappling. If your a purist or just don't want to do grappling then so be it, but don't fool yourself or try to fool anyone else into believing you have it all under control if for some reason someone takes you to the ground.

[yuanfen]

Ultimately if you are serious about self defense or fighting or what have you, grappling will be something you approach at some point in your martial life
-------------------------------------------------------------
Grabula-

are you going to tell Gin Foon Mak that?
(or is that a differnt Grabula who is going...?
Apologies if thats the case))

[Grabula]

yuanfen, of course not. He knows what he wants to get out of martial arts, and maybe what he has studied has worked for him. However I just consider all aspects of combat a part of the "martial way" as it were and I think anyone who is well rounded or has certain goals in mind should look at all of those aspects. It certainly doesn't hurt.

[reneritchie]

In the old days it wasn't uncommon for someone to know several different types of MA, each with a slightly different focus. Some sifu even encouraged or directed their students to other famous masters to round out their educations. Maybe the Hung Ga guy gets sent to a Lama sifu for some work on long bridge, maybe does some Tai Gik Kuen for a different type of internal work, maybe learns the Wudang Gim and som Sut Gao. Plenty of well known MAists in our time are like that to, even WCK sifu ;)

Its just one approach to overall martial education, same thing as learning a couple languages or different types of mathmatics. Depends on your goals and aptitudes, as always.

The other is to stick to one approach and figure out how to use it to handle different situations. Not just fantasy, but give yourself some real experience in doing it.

[Grabula]

Depends on your goals and aptitudes, as always.

That I think is the key.

As for sticking with one art or going to a few, I don't think there is any wrong way. Any art should be able to address just about any situation, whether you have learned to or have figured it out on your own is another matter completely.

[Alpha Dog]

I thought thinking inside the box was the key.

Or was that yesterday's key?

O -key fine...

[Grabula]

I thought thinking inside the box was the key.

Stop thinking alpha dog and just be the box, right? It's not a box, it's not anything. The ultimate is nothingness. This whole Tao of Alpha Dog things is confusing but I think I am starting to understand....

"There is no box" - ToAD

"Wingchun is about no skill" - ToAD

"Be one with nothingness." - ToAD

[Alpha Dog]

What about the key?

[Grabula]

nothingness? ;)

[Alpha Dog]

That is a circularity. Try again?

[Grabula]

a circularity?! ah I see the truth of it!

[Alpha Dog]

I didn't think you did.

[Grabula]

I have been reaidng the ToAD! It is a very complicated (some would say nigh incomprehendable) manuscript and a lowly student such as myself can only go so fast in my learning!

[Alpha Dog]

Xia4 Yi1 Bei4 Ze Ba!

[Grabula]

Laughing Buddha sings!!

[Alpha Dog]

Now that is "incomprehendable".

[reneritchie]

incomprehendable

Nice. Right up there with "irregardless", "anticipointment", and "fantabuluscious". You are now ready for a prime time TV news magazine spot!

[anerlich]

John Will's approach is difficult to describe briefly, and I get most of it second or third hand anyway. My Sifu, Rick Spain, is a friend of John's and visits him regularly, as well as having John at our school for seminars 3-4 times a year. But as John lives in Melbourne (when he's not out of the country or interstate, he travels constantly), Rick gets most of his tuition in weekly privates with one of John's brown belts, Anthony Lange.

These days, since he achieved black belt, John tends to specialise in teaching BJJ. But if you read his book "Fight Logic", it will give you some idea - basically a kickboxing standup, freestyle wrestling takedowns, and BJJ on the floor. The strategy is very much: set up a takedown with strikes, put the person on the floor and finish with a choke or arm/leg break.

John's original art was wrestling, then he did Silat, then moved into Shootfighting and BJJ. He has scarily fast and effective takedown skills, especially low singles and doubles.

While he's no slouch at striking, my personal opinion is that my Sifu is MUCH more knowledgeable in that area. But he wants himself and his students to become complete fighters.

John is an excellent coach - not just his knowledge of technique, which is formidable, but also the process of teaching a martial art. He has some excellent insights into the psychology of learning and training that I've always enjoyed greatly in his seminars.

His bio and some interviews are at http://www.bjj.com.au if you want to find out more.

[sweaty_dog]

Rick Spain is a great martial artist. Not many people who have gone as far as he has in his chosen area would be humble enough to start again in a new field and combine it with their own curriculum.

To the people that think they can stop a takedown with a punch, maybe you can, but you should probably make sure if that's your only plan.

[Unstoppable]

sometimes an eye gouge is all you nend to stop a shooting in wrestler

[sweaty_dog]

I'm assuming you've tried this? If you're from Dandenong in Victoria I'd be surprised if you've even met a wrestler.

[Unstoppable]

ya i have met a ton of wrestlers you fool there are many wrestlers maybe not in Dandenong here but the ones i met are in thomastown also some in footscray

sheesh you people




:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

[anerlich]

sweaty,

Have a look at Unstoppable's web link in his .sig before you attempt a serious argument with him. One of the funnier MA sites on the web.

"We are the best in America, the best in English speaking countries the world over, the best in non-English speaking, except China, and in fact just the best except the Chinese who invented all styles. We learned from the best Chinese. "

" Sifu Thom Nelson is a professionally accredited philosopher (Socrates Grade) from the NAMAT philosophy college. And is also made aware of many secrets and ancient secrets about the universe (called cosmology eg chi, energy, tao, big banf, buddha and what some call "GOD" metc) and about the life of humanity (good, bad, evil, ku chi, energy, kung fu, war, etc) "

"We train hard, fight hard, and offer cheap videos and books. Cyber training is another specialty, so you can learn from the safety of your own computer ... WATCH OUT FOR HACKERS."

"Sifu Nelson was taking his own journey (not to the future) to Thailand. There he trained at the prestigious lumpyknee muay thai camp for seven months. At the end of his time there, he defeated all fellow students and instructors one after another in his blackbelt test, the quickest it had ever been done, and was thus awarded the World Muay Thai Heavyweight Championship despite weighing only 60kg!! "

"Many celebrities are graduated from NAMAT. Sarah Michelle Gellar ("Buffy" - famous vampire slayer). Chuck Norris as well as Sammo Hung and Jackie Chan. The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin are both accredited teachrs of NAMAT American Temple Boxing."

The descriptions of the videos for sale are hilarious. LOL @ "lumpyknee"

[shaolin kungfu]

look at this! (http://www.geocities.com/namatkungfu/video5.htm)

That has to be one of the dumbest videos ever.

:D

[Unstoppable]

hey come on guys im not the ONE on TRIAL here

[Edmund]

Originally posted by flaco
edmund, i clearly stated my opinion. as far as the gangs, that was just an examle of how even street punks are now grappling, so its a common style.

as far as my advise, dont take it, and hopefully one day you will face reality, and run into a big strong opponent, and try your wc. i know many guys with no training in grappling, who will destroy the average wc guy.

[snip]

by no means am i always worried when i go out, i just gave an example of a school i know of.my last fight, never went to the ground, however the guy tried to take me down. trust me, ive been training long enough to known something

again, if its your hobby,why reply? and if you disagree, fine, but if your reality is what happens in your dojo, and you dont go outside the box, you will learn the hard way.my post was only intended to help people.if your so uptight, maybe you are a little insecure? maybe deep down, you have some doubt in your effectiveness, otherwise, why be so defensive?

Great marketing!

The first rule of advertising is to prey on a general insecurity that common people might have so you are doing OK with the blah blah blah on punks attacking people.

But I don't know if the personal attacks are going to work so good. They often put people off.

The main problem is the target audience. You probably will get more mileage on the Street Fighting forum. But then maybe you get less new customers I guess.

Now go train jiu-jitsu!

[Edmund]

Grabula,

Please refrain from derogatory comments.

I never stated I "had it all under control" unlike some talk about pressure point KO takedown defences. I am serious about many things. Nevertheless I don't push my preferences onto others.

Flaco used complete hyperbole and shenanigan to make his point.
I called him on that. His point being that he felt every WC person should do grappling to blue belt level.

It's a broad and frankly arrogant opinion, painting everyone else as somehow less serious about what they do.

But that seems par for the course for BJJ people on the internet.
If I stated they should all do Muay Thai for a few years before they get their blue belt, some would be similarly offended.

But I wouldn't do that. I respect what they do and just let them to do it. If the various BJJ people who troll here would show the same courtesy there would be no problem. This is a WC forum.

Having met and trained with BJJ people, I know not all are so conceited.


Originally posted by Grabula
edmund, flaco has a valid point and you would be wise to pay attention. Ultimately if you are serious about self defense or fighting or what have you, grappling will be something you approach at some point in your martial life if for no other reason then to understand how it works on the basic level. Blowing it off as needless is in my opinion ignorant. I'm not trying to be derogatory, I am just don't think your attitude was appropriate for what flaco was talking about. He made it quite clear that not everyone is suited for grappling. If your a purist or just don't want to do grappling then so be it, but don't fool yourself or try to fool anyone else into believing you have it all under control if for some reason someone takes you to the ground.

[Grabula]

edmund, I think you and I see what flaco is posting as two different things. My issue was instead of drawing into a discussion with him you went straight to arguing or trying to shoot down his theory. This sort of behaviour runs rampant on the internet and on this forum as well. I saw no attempt for you to clarify what he meant, and your aggressive disagreement could be taken as insulting, whether you meant it that way or not. I did refrain from "derogatory comments" as best I could but your combatitive attitude however may not allow you to see that. some of these grapplers aren't trolling they are just trying to address a percieved issue in the training of wing chun. You may not agree, however showing a little respect for differing opinions and being thoughtful about what you have to say goes a long way.

[flaco]

i still stand by my post edmund, and it is not belittling wc, it is stating that wc is a great standing art, however you are dead on the ground. bottom line is you are dead on the ground against a good grapppler, and even street punks of today are grappling, so it is very wise advise that i gave.

i do suggest that all bjj people learn thai, or wc or boxing to be realistic, and only the arrogant ones deny this.bjj needs good striking, theyb stink at striking, so if your in a bar, or club,or crowded mall, etc, and get attacked or robbed, you would be better off, not to grapple, so iadvise bjj guys to learn a good stand up art.

if your mind is so strong on only wc, fine, you came at me aggresively, when i stated a well rounded fact, with realistic stats to look at. look at how many people are enrolled in bjj schools, and how many exist, and whats the word on the street in conversation about martial arts. most people know of bjj from the octagon, and if theyw ere to study an effective art, they would study bjj. of course people who know martial arts will maybe choose other arts also. but giving up your pride, and looking at my statement as a pro wc statement, would be wise. i train wc and love it, but i am in martial arts to be effective, and no one art has it all regardless of what anyone says.

if all great wc masters also train against grappling. such as boztepe, william cheung,etc. i guess you know better than all of us. good luck with your superman attitude.

martial arts guys and religious people are usless to argue with. do your thing, and i'll do mine.

to the rest of the guys who understood my point, thanks for the replies

if we are going to war with iraq and think they have chemical wweapons, we better train how to be protected from chemical weapons,and be prepared. if we go in and just say "we are america, the strongest nation in the world, we dont have to train against anything,we have superior principles and strategies,we dont need anything". IF WE THINK LIKE THAT, WE WOULD BE STUPID,AND BE DESTROYED.the same applies to martial arts strategies, most people in america grapple and strike. i doubt you will get mugged by a mantis or wc guy, but a thug who once wrestled or boxed is a possibility that is much more common. we grow up in this country on football, wrestling, boxing, the average layman has done a little of one of the above.

JUST COMMON SENSE.

[Edmund]

Dear Flaco and Grabula,

Your derogatory put downs are not appreciated.

I do not believe I am more knowledgeable than others. Or a better fighter.

However I am not pushing that everyone do WC on a BJJ forum, unlike yourselves on this forum. You created this troll thread to do so.

If you would simply allow others to "do their thing" without verbally abusing them as ignorant, I would not have a problem.

But you seem to think that everyone else is pushing their religion on you somehow!

As I stated in my first post - not everyone wants to do BJJ but they shouldn't be abused for not being badass streetfighters.


Originally posted by flaco

[snip]
if all great wc masters also train against grappling. such as boztepe, william cheung,etc. i guess you know better than all of us. good luck with your superman attitude.

martial arts guys and religious people are usless to argue with. do your thing, and i'll do mine.
[snip]

[WCis4me]

FWIW,
Here is a link to a video clip that was taken at a William Cheung Seminar in Oct. 2001.
Not sure if I was following correctly (spent a couple of days away and lots of catching up to do so only skimming through posts) but from what I gathered there was a question as to whether any WC schools teach grappling (ground techniques). This clip shows that at least one does, that I know of.
on your back (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp)
Under techniques, go to bottom right video clip.

Regards,
Vicky

[sweaty_dog]

"If I stated they should all do Muay Thai for a few years before they get their blue belt, some would be similarly offended"

A black belt in BJJ said pretty much exactly that to me, only he didn't specify MT, just said it was a good choice as a striking style. Do you need to learn how to swim to sail a boat? Maybe not, but you'd better hope you don't fall out!

[namron]

Andrew,

Thanks for the John Will info, I'll check it out!

[Andrew Williams]

Hi Ed & Andrew S.

Hope all is well with you and yours. You may remember me, I used to talk to you quite some time ago on another forum.

Just thought I would say hello.

Andrew W.
Perth WA.

[kj]

Well I have to say hello too Andrew, to both you and Ed. Good to see you guys popping in here; it's like old home week.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grabula]

edmund, this is the last time I am going to point this out to you, after this I have to assume you are trolling. flaco made it quite clear that "depending" on your goals, some sort of ground fighting should probably be a part of your training. If your a hobbyist or just don't have any interest in pursuing it that far, so be it.
Now I suggest you go back and read the post you feel are inflammatory and put your own original post in perspective.

[reneritchie]

Hey Andrew W!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just about finished with the Understanding TWC thread...started reading the first few pages of this thread...and can never resist getting into some serious discussion about grappling and wing chun...

28 years of wing chun....L-O-V-E wing chun...but learned some Catch wrestling before wc and started picking Catch up again in recent years...and IMO...

Stand-up striking and kicking..even if it is the great wing chun way..is not enough by itself for MANY real confrontations that occur from time to time where there are no rules and regs...

In certain instances it IS POSSIBLE in my experience to defeat the attempted grab and takedown with strikes...but if this is all you have in your arsenal to defend with against the nasty, drunken wrestler, football player, overall jock, trained bjj guy looking for trouble, or even the plain ol' punk down-the-street who likes streetfights...

WATCH OUT...Mr. wing chun....Sooner or later you're goin' down!

[hunt1]

WCisforme the clip you put up is an actual techniqui shown by Philip Nearing in his Wing Chu Video taking it to the groud. He produced and distrbuted the video 6 or 7 years ago.
Imitation is the best form of flattery so I hope Philip is flattered.
His video on Wing chun ground fighting was the first commercially available.

[anerlich]

This clip shows that at least one does, that I know of.

Rick Spain's Hung Suen WC school does also. Our groundfighting syllabus is called "Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu".

[Edmund]

Wow the 3 Andrews, Kathy Jo and Rene!

This is going to be an interesting forum.

To Grabula, thank you for letting be those who aren't interested in BJJ but you implied I was a fool before which offended me. It also misrepresented my view. As did Flaco. I do not hate grappling arts.

[Andrew Williams]

Hello too to Kathy Jo, Andrew N. and Rene.

What an absolute pleasure to see all of you in this forum, it is like old times, I am very happy. I am sure we will catch up as things move along.

Grappling is not for me because of my temperament. Also, I have not the physical wherewithal to study and work toward the perfection of two martial arts.

However, I have found that training with grapplers has allowed me to better understand and/or augment my use of WC foot and handwork.

Purely from a fun/exercise point of view I love to hit the mat and (if I play by their rules) be humbled by those better than me.

Physically and tactically, a well conditioned grappler can make for a formidable opponent, one that is dangerous and quickly able to injure his/her opponent. I will say that I would rather suffer the horrors of a concussion than the ramifications of a dislocated limb. (Neither being desirable).

Be wary the grappler, the good ones anyway, and likewise be wary those that fear them not.

Kind regards Andrew W.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by anerlich


Rick Spain's Hung Suen WC school does also. Our groundfighting syllabus is called "Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu".
If I am not mistaken was Rick Spain once a student of William Cheung? Did he learn some of that groundfighting from William Cheung?

[Merryprankster]

Here is a link to a video clip that was taken at a William Cheung Seminar in Oct. 2001.

Reviewed the clip. Absolute non-sensical garbage. MAY get you out if the person knows exactly nothing and isn't too much bigger than you. If the person has maybe a month of groundgrappling experience, you're getting thrashed.

Do NOT try this escape unless you want to get beat up.

[reneritchie]

What MP said (and reversals of course are only 2 poinch under cbjj, since they were punching, gotta assume NHB, an everyone but BJM knows there ain't no poinch there).

[sweaty_dog]

I disagree! That thing looked awesome! I love the way he just kind of falls sideways when you push on his elbow. All along I have been wasting my time bridging and rolling and going out the back! Maybe you could get him off even faster if you didn't touch him at all, you just kind of roll over onto your belly and let him fall off by himself?

[PaulH]

SD,

To move the body sideway you got to disrupt first his sitting weight on your hips which can be very heavy. It's hard to do it against a heavy grappler who also know how to bypass your defending hands. To me the defender's hands are way too extended and look so very vulnerable for arm bar.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

The only saving grace is the guy on top doesn't know how to control and strike well from the mount. Were he properly based and putting weight, it might be a bit more unpleasent (maybe even, instead of punching, he began smashing the bottom guy's head into the floor).

[OdderMensch]

Not knowing the full context of what was being shown I won't comment on that clip directly other than to say, that not how I train to deal with that situaion.

Extented arms are there to give you time to react when the opponent is away from you. When the are (lit) right on top of you, its time to reel them babies in. I'd want to protect me head face and try to elbow the inner thigh of the guy on top (also I think a more experienced groundpounder would try to move off my hips, up to my chest more) Once I got them on my hips, I could try to bump him off me and either escape or attempt my own lock or mount on the ground.

it workeed in the clip, but if my Sifu has taught me one thing about that position, its that its not a great place to be as the guy on top can reach my face, but I really can't reach his, thereforee the face/head is not where i would concentrate my attacks.

[anerlich]

"If I am not mistaken was Rick Spain once a student of William Cheung?"

You are not mistaken.

"Did he learn some of that groundfighting from William Cheung?"

William Cheung's pre-Gracie/UFC groundfighting was almost exclusively striking and leg entanglement type takedowns against a standing opponent. Prior to about 1993 there was none of this "anti-grappling" stuff which seems so prevalent (and so ordinary for the most part) for every WC oldtimer not prepared to look outside the box these days. Most of what I've seen of TWC "antigrappling" in magazines and the like is horrible.

There may be some of sigung's students who claim to have learned "secret antigrappling" prior to 1996 when Rick, at the time the GM's most senior and by far longest serving student, left the WWCKFA, but I am betting they are stretching the truth considerably.

This is not to say the kick and leg entanglement strategy from the ground does not work. Allan Goes successfully used it against an extremely tough customer in Kazushi Sakuraba in Pride. But it's not invincible - Vitor Belfort tried against Sakuraba as well and got his legs totally hammered.

Trying to larp sao or fend off an experienced grappler or G&Per with your arms is a fairly dangerous business. presenting a stright arm will get you cross-armbarred in a second (it's one of the first things taught in BJJ class), and often a G&Per will want you trying to grab his arms as it gives him a good set up for an Americana/paintbrush armlock/figure 4 from the mount.

One fairly common G&P approach from mount is to restrict and pressure the opponent by staying low and giving them no space, throwing in hooking punches to the floating ribs or side of the head/jaw. By grapevining the bottom guys legs with your own you add pressure and further restrict his movement. You only sit up for short periods, and as said above you try to quickly move up on the guys chest and off his hips so you cant be bucked off so easiy, and throw a quick flurry of gravity assisted straight punches. Other tactics which some people have made work are stiff arming the guy's jaw and pressing the side of his head to the floor while pucnching or palming the temple on the up side, or if he tries to puch at your stomach rounding your back, grabbing the back of his neck in a partial crank with one hand while pounding his face with the other. Attacks to the leg or knee from the bottom guy can be countered by cranking his head and neck away from the leg under attack.

You never stay up high for too long, but usually slip back down to the smother/grapevine position and return to the hooking though the gaps strategy..

It's actually not that easy to stay on top just throwing punches and doing nothing else if the guy underneath is determined to get you off, though he's probably going to eat a few strikes doing it. But a good G&P technician is a different animal altogether.

[anerlich]

Your uberbada$$ chi sao skills can actually be quite valuable when you have your opponent in the guard, and are far less vulnerable to having your arms effectively attacked than when mounted. Bear in mind that grappling training develops its own tactile and proprioceptive sensitivity, and in his own way a grappler may be just as or more sensitive to your body movement and plans as you would be if you were standing with arms in contact.

However you have to be VERY careful with your arms when mounted, or in side mount, or sidecontrol, kneeride, head to head, etc. (all of which have their own good opportunities for landing blows while controlling the opponent). Generally, on the bottom, you want your elbows tucked in with your hands close protecting your neck and head (not a simple proposition).

Give a competent grappler on top an opportunity to control or attack a neck, arm or leg and he will.

In the scenario I discuss above when the top guy is chest to chest with his opp with legs grapevined, chi sao is of little practical value as you are far too close to form any effective bridge. This is really an intimidatory and diminishing tactic by the top guy, causing progressive damage and exhaustion. For a KO he has to be up high to get the punching range and leverage (kinda hard to do a decent one inch punch on your knees), where you MAY be able to deflect some of his shots (though carefully, or your arms will be attacked) or dislodge him.

The use of the legs to avoid being mounted, to kick or to control the opponent can be an effective tactic in the right hands (feet?). In WC it might be called "chi gerk from the ground". In Jiu Jitsu, it's called "working the open guard".

[sweaty_dog]

Originally posted by PaulH
SD,

To move the body sideway you got to disrupt first his sitting weight on your hips which can be very heavy. It's hard to do it against a heavy grappler who also know how to bypass your defending hands. To me the defender's hands are way too extended and look so very vulnerable for arm bar.

Regards,

No way! I just thrash around, maybe try and choke the guy with my arms nice and straight, or roll over onto my stomach and try to crawl away. It works every time!*






















*No it doesn't.

[namron]

Originally posted by sweaty_dog
I disagree! That thing looked awesome! I love the way he just kind of falls sideways when you push on his elbow. All along I have been wasting my time bridging and rolling and going out the back! Maybe you could get him off even faster if you didn't touch him at all, you just kind of roll over onto your belly and let him fall off by himself?

I wouldnt advocate this technique, it may be better than nothing though (if the person doesnt know any better).

Some of the main things are that you are assuming the person will be sitting on your hip. This can then form part of the classic 'buck' the opponent and roll technique.

Where the opponent is not sitting on you (ie:his hips are raised) and especially if he is higher up near the chest rather than the hip your in trouble this means as you turn he can just ride with you and not sacrifice balance. The opponent is generally out of range from your punches (to head) and is free to rain down on you and if you roll onto your belly you'll be choked out very very quickly as you are exposing your neck.

The above is one opinion - there are much more competant grapplers in the forum than me.

[Merryprankster]

Cough Cough.

*Clears throat*

I think sweaty dog is kidding

[reneritchie]

A couple weeks ago a had a chance to play around with an experience wrestler and we spent most of the time just trying for a good clinch. He was, as Andrew N. suggested above, remarkably sensitive and adaptable, and his "swimming" was as hard to deal with as an experienced WCK person's Chi Sao or a Taiji person's Tui Sao, etc. Interesting experience for anyone who has the chance.

[Merryprankster]

Now now Rene, stop it. Everybody knows that wrestling just relies on brute strength. No sensitivity to weight shifts or spaces opening and closing down at all.

[reneritchie]

MP, sorry, my bad. They also have no idea how to strike while in the clinch, and any headbutts, extremely stiff crossfaces, etc. are always and purely 100% accidental, just like bjj knees to the groin...

[Alpha Dog]

WC has knees to the groin...

[reneritchie]

Sure, but ours are nice and legal..... :)

[Deathrobe]

not that it matters, but ive been training in wing chun for 10yrs

I find wing chun to be very good means of self defense.

Though ive only studied wing chun privately ive been to public classes only as a supplement to my training..

some things comes to mind

One its impossible to get really profficient in wing chun by yourself, you need a training partner to practice with for sensitivity.

Sensitivity is key to handling grapplers if you no the basic positions like the guard and mount etc.. you can apply wing chun sensitivity training to this..

Also it does take atleast 5yrs to get a decent handle on how to use wing chun(this unfortantly is true) people take wing chun and have no patience and end up quiting before they even start to begin to understand how sensitivity and force come into play.

Ive been to alot of forums and listen to people dis wing chun.
I can only speak for myself.

Wing chun doesnt work well in the ring because
for 1 its hard to articulate your wrist with gloves on
2 some gloves prevent u from doing things like lopping
3 the way the system is designed it doesnt lend itself to exchanging blows and some of the more deadly techniques are the common means of defense.

Ive sparred alot of different guys from different styles using wing chun and have done okay with it.. It usually comes down to whos just better doesnt have much to do with the style at all..

As far as wing chun in the ufc or things like that I really could care less about these events I would rather people dis wing chun then let people of the wrong mindframe knowing how to use it.

what linage do i train under? I suppose its a mix of willams cheungs and ip juns wing chun.

I mix internal with external in my wing chun i use a 90/10 stance instead of a 50/50 stance however, I have kept the core principles of wing chun

Rene-were u one of the guys who wrote "complete wing chun ?
IF so great book i bought a copy of it and its one of the best books ive found on the subject.

As far as association's and sifu's and such I do not really come from a linage because most of the "grandmasters" are to money oriented and care more about dollars then they do thier students.this is sad because wing chun is a great system that gets misrepresented all the time by 1000's of people.

If played chi sao with guys who has 7+yrs on me and ive shut them down because they totally dont understand how wing chun works.


If you want to be good at wing chun then u cannot use force against force sure , sure everyone says they know what im talking about u would be suprised how few REALLY understand what im talking about.

Sensitivity and chi sao is key to understanding but how can one understand if they really dont understand sensitivity and chi sao.

chi sao should be trained slow and soft/ FAST and hard.
dont let yourself get into a grabbing match or pushing match or clinching and holding this is not wing chuns way to many people practice forceful habbits because they listen to people tell them this is the way.

To be soft takes yrs of practice to understand being soft takes more yrs of practice.

peace

[Merryprankster]

Also it does take atleast 5yrs to get a decent handle on how to use wing chun(this unfortantly is true) people take wing chun and have no patience and end up quiting before they even start to begin to understand how sensitivity and force come into play.

Hey wow, interesting. How is it that Judo, Wrestling, SC, and BJJ produce guys with functional sensitivity after 6 months, and good to excellent sensitivity after about a year?

[PaulH]

I don't know what "ttt" means from some of the posts here, but they are for me: Techniques, Tactics, Training. I saw phenomenon results over a short period of time from any martial artists who can integrate and focus well on constantly improving the three areas above.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

ttt = to the top, a post to send the thread to the top of the message board so people can see it more easily. A show of support for the topic.

MP, people in competitive endeavors tend to develop functional skill faster, especially when training against like minded, resistant partners.

[Ernie]

Hey wow, interesting. How is it that Judo, Wrestling, SC, and BJJ produce guys with functional sensitivity after 6 months, and excellent sensitivity after about a year?

easy they are not punching each other and are developing full body sesitivity off a person giving resistence

the body adapts faster and there not confused by all the internal dialogue that comes with wing chun.

also they use natural body mechanics vs. trying to reprogram
the way you use your body as in wing chun

ironiclly i have found people with a ground backround or tai chi learn wing chun faster and more functional then those that don't

[PaulH]

Hey Ernie,

How do you explain fighting ability of boxers over a short time period then?

Regards,

[Ernie]

don't think it's that short they spend a lot of time developing there tools before they ever get in the ring and once they get there it's honest fighting ,
none of that is my wirght right or is my tan to low or to high stuff that we deal with they either hit or get hit
you adapt quickly in this enviroment
but they train much harder out of the ring then in the ring
so what they accomplish in 6 months is way more the average wing chun guy
remember most not all but most wing chun people completely disregaurd conditioning like it's the evil power or something
again they also use natural body structure no need to reprogram

[OdderMensch]

I agree with Deathrobe here, five years seems like a long time, but WC was designed to be a subsystem of Shaolin, the total shaolin took more like 16 years to develop.

Now, this is not to say a good WC instructer can't have people fighting within 6 months, or even beating people within a year, but that fighting will be considered (to the WC styleist) crude. Not that there is a **** thing wrong with crude, functional fighting :D

But to develop the Ma gung needed for stability, the strikeing power, the sensetivity and the depth of technique will take some time. Time and practice, practice, practice.

hmm gota cut this short, i'll get back to this tonight.

[PaulH]

Interesting, OM. There must be a better way to shorten the process of learning good effective WC fighting. If I observe my cat, he can fight good against dogs even though he did not go to train in any cat's kwoon that I know of in less than 6 months. The training methodology should allow nature to take more a bigger role if it is to minimize any undue tension or disharmony that often come with artificial or alien methods that you imposed on the human body. Look, I still haven't figure this out yet, but maybe someone knows?

Regards,

[Edmund]

Originally posted by PaulH
Interesting, OM. There must be a better way to shorten the process of learning good effective WC fighting. If I observe my cat, he can fight good against dogs even though he did not go to train in any cat's kwoon that I know of in less than 6 months. The training methodology should allow nature to take more a bigger role if it is to minimize any undue tension or disharmony that often come with artificial or alien methods that you imposed on the human body. Look, I still haven't figure this out yet, but maybe someone knows?


Your cat doesn't do WC. He does cat style.
Frankly I think I can find a dog that will kick his butt.

All cats should study a little dog style - at least up to blue flea collar level. There's a lot more dogs roaming around at night ever since UDFC came to pay per view.

[Deathrobe]

I wasnt saying that to start a fight, you can learn how to kinda use wing chun quickly but you wont be very effective.


Wing chun teaches skillfully mastery of the body.

Do you honestly believe you can obtain that skill that fast?

I was saying 5yrs to be generious im not trying to get students im not advertising anything all im saying is i spent alot of yrs training in wing chun and it takes alot of yrs to figure it out its hard its not easy And if you looking to be a excellent fighter tommorow then dont look at wing chun as an art to study if you arent commited to being the best you can be then you arent going to reach your full potential in wing chun.

I think all styles are good im not bias i just happen to like wing chun and am willing to follow through mastering the system best i can. To do this is going to take the rest of my life. What are you willing to sacrifice to be the best?




I spend 150 dollars a week on private lessons thats 5lessons a week for me. I do that now because i can.

yrs pass ive spent about 60dollars a week on privates .

I supplement my privates with public classes.

Ive worked all types of jobs so i could continue to make time to study martial arts.

How important is learning to you? what are you willing to sacrifice to learn?

In the pass 10yrs I only miss my lessons when i go on vacation or if im deathly ill.

I hear people ramble on about effectiveness and so forth.dedicate your life to something and really DEDICATE To it and you will find what you are looking for.

if you look for shortcuts you are just fooling yourself.
I wont even go into how much time i spend training myself.

[PaulH]

Hey Edmund,

You find your dog and I'll find a mountain cat against yours any day for the upcoming UDFC. Don't be so bitter about blue collar dogs. Didn't someone say that they are best friends that a guy can ask for? Ha!Ha!

Regards,

[anerlich]

I think to be fair to Deathrobe, while boxing, wrestling, MT and BJJ give you a significant edge over the average untrained person in a short period of time, a high level of competence(say national level competitor, BJJ purple belt, etc.) takes more than a couple of years.

There seems to be a perception here not by everybody) that boxing and wrestling are low arts and don't qualify as lifetime vocations or pursuits the way some allege they regard their CMA practice. That's an arrogant and ignorant viewpoint IMO.

Deathrobe, you're getting your privates **** cheap. FWIW, my Sifu was a total WC maniac for the first ten years of his training. These days he said that was a foolish way to regard life. He achieved lots, but said it meant little without anyone else to share it with. He still trains hard and has awesome skill but is rather less of a monomaniac these days.

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by PaulH
Interesting, OM. There must be a better way to shorten the process of learning good effective WC fighting. If I observe my cat, he can fight good against dogs even though he did not go to train in any cat's kwoon that I know of in less than 6 months. The training methodology should allow nature to take more a bigger role if it is to minimize any undue tension or disharmony that often come with artificial or alien methods that you imposed on the human body. Look, I still haven't figure this out yet, but maybe someone knows?

Regards,

It sure ain't me :D but I'll say this, i've never thought of WC as being a very 'natural" way to fight. WC is IMVHO a very effective way to fight, that takes advantave of the body nature gave us, but I don't think nature ever intended us to fight like this.

Look at your cat agian, it developed to kill animals much smaller than itself, and while it can fight off dogs and live to tell the tail :) but do you think it could kill a dog? I doubt it, cats have small, sharp claws and small, sharp fangs, but we poor humans have niether claws nor fangs. Our primary weapon is, and has always been our mind. our mind lets us design strategies, therory and movements to overcome obsticales and achive our goals, WC is one tool that was designed after centeruies of testing, training and most importantly, fighting. It was meant to teach all the important lessons of shaolin, while being as compact as possible.

[Deathrobe]

Actually i get lessons very cheap because ive been taken them for very long. And have a good relationship with my teacher.


Anyhow, I also combine my wc training with chin'na and tai'chi (yang style).

As far a other styles i do not consider them low styles and wasnt saying anything negative about other styles.

My point is to aquire your full potential at something u must dedicate yourself fully to it. regardless of style.

chin'na is a good supplement for self-defense its pretty straight forward and rather effective. It compliments wing chun very well.

[yuanfen]

OdderMensch sez:Look at your cat agian, it developed to kill animals much smaller than itself, and while it can fight off dogs and live to tell the tail but do you think it could kill a dog?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake to underestimate felines. They come in different sizes-
fom big cat country- my world-the Bengal Tiger to the house cat.
An Arizona wildcat can tear up a dog pretty badly.My now aging Alaskan malamute is a stong character- but the most scared I have seen him, is when a small mother cat who thought that my dog was passing by too closely to her kittens- jumped on his back and was alternately chewing on his neck and scratching him.
I had to go to my dog's rescue while he was howling, moaning and groaning. Kipling hasa great poem on the toghness of the female of any species.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deathrobe sez:
chin'na is a good supplement for self-defense its pretty straight forward and rather effective. It compliments wing chun very well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually wing chun chinna is a natural extension of wing chun development.. all in due time.

[yuanfen]

OdderMensch sez:Look at your cat agian, it developed to kill animals much smaller than itself, and while it can fight off dogs and live to tell the tail but do you think it could kill a dog?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake to underestimate felines. They come in different sizes-
fom big cat country- my world-the Bengal Tiger to the house cat.
An Arizona wildcat can tear up a dog pretty badly.My aging Alaskan malmute is a stong character- but the most scared I have seen his is when a small mother cat who thought that my dog was passing by too closely to her kittens- jumpedon his back and was alternately chewing on his neck and scratching him. Kipling hasa great poem on the toghness of the female of any species.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deathrobe sez:
chin'na is a good supplement for self-defense its pretty straight forward and rather effective. It compliments wing chun very well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually wing chun chinna is a natural extension of wing chun development.. all in due time.

[reneritchie]

chin'na is a good supplement for self-defense its pretty straight forward and rather effective. It compliments wing chun very well.

Although not all lineages retain/emphasize/do it, like most TCMA, Wing Chun Kuen already has a Kum Na (Qin Na/Seizing & Holding) engine all its own (which functions from the core of the art much as the striking, throwing, etc. does).

Before looking for outside Kum Na sources, I would suggest trying to learn WCK Kum Na, as it will be a seemless fit. Otherstuff will probably work other ways (while the techniques of most Kum Na are similar from White Crane, Mantis, Eagle, even Aikido/Jujitsu, they often have different overall mechanics to WCK).

[PaulH]

Hey Rene,

Some one said to me that there are a lot of Chin na WCK in the WC forms. How do you classify them in general and where do you find them in the YM forms?

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hi Paul,

WCK Kum Na, unlike lets say Ying Jow Pai Kum Na, tends to be sudden and not for control or imbolization, but for damaging the joints and clearing the line for the striking skills to be integrated.

Almost every movement should have a Kum Na application. Tan, Fook, and Bong have built in Kum Na, Lop is obvious, Huen, Kwai, etc. It's all in there.

Mostly, however, I'd say we function from a Fan Kum Na perspective in that we don't try to go out and grab someone as often as we do nasty things when they try to grab us.

[PaulH]

Thanks for the info, Rene. I don't know what a Kwai is except it is a name of a river in my old favorite wartime movie.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

kneeling, like a kneeling punch or kneeling elbow (diagonal or straight downward movement). Sometimes use Kwa (hanging) or Cup (Covering) instead.

Kwai Jarn would be a good example from Biu Jee.

[KenWingJitsu]

Wow....the thread that keeps on going.

Anerlich's correctness on just about every post he's made has reached unneard-of levels of correctness.

That clip is....lol shall we say......"incomplete" - just to be nice? You can off balance the guy but you wont roll him off oyu unless he only has one hand lol.

And as to taking 5 years to be 'good' at WC.....Well drop WCK & go box instead... I mean...what happens oif you are attacked next week?
The only good WC is WC that trains you do deal with someone fighting you back.. That's all. And yes, I am correct again. :D

[Deathrobe]

HEHEH i edited this post it was much longer then i wanted it to be.

Im just going to drop the whole issue

good luck :)

[OdderMensch]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Wow....the thread that keeps on going.

Heck, we're just getting started :D

And as to taking 5 years to be 'good' at WC.....Well drop WCK & go box instead... I mean...what happens oif you are attacked next week?

What happen if I'm attacked when I'm 60? And it's not five years to be good, its five years to learn everything. Getting good takes much longer.

The only good WC is WC that trains you do deal with someone fighting you back.. That's all. And yes, I am correct again. :D

I agree 100%

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by yuanfen

Mistake to underestimate felines. They come in different sizes-
fom big cat country- my world-the Bengal Tiger to the house cat.
An Arizona wildcat can tear up a dog pretty badly.My aging Alaskan malmute is a stong character- but the most scared I have seen his is when a small mother cat who thought that my dog was passing by too closely to her kittens- jumpedon his back and was alternately chewing on his neck and scratching him. Kipling hasa great poem on the toghness of the female of any species.


Yeah, but i doubt get's got a mountain lion at his place. We don't compare well to most animals, that's all i'm sayying. I'll comment more later, i've gotta go to work now.