Unstoppable

[black and blue]

On another thread someone said:


All techniques are beatable.

Duncan Leung Sifu has said, speaking on the subject of Chi Sau...


There are unstoppable moves in Wing Chun but it is not recommended to train with them. Actually, there are several unstoppable Chisao moves. But remember this: Chisao is only a training device and, like any device, there are always a number of workarounds. A hundred-meter obstacle course can be run more quickly without the obstacles, but what's the point? These tricks are the same way: they are very powerful and very simple, but they are ineffective for real fighting, and all you learn is how to cheat your own training.

Any feelings/ideas/comments regarding unstoppable moves in Chi Sau? As someone posted on David's thread, my Sifu seems to have answers to ALL of my attacks :D

[quiet man]

My five year training (and my sifu of course :-)) has taught me there are no unstoppable moves. Not in Wing Chun, not anywhere. I have an answer for your every attack, and you have a counteranswer for my every answer (edit - one may not always be able to perform them, because one is too slow or too weak or one's skill is inadequate etc, but that's another story). If there were unstoppable moves, I would try to use them every time, and accordingly, I would win every time. And what if we both used unstoppable moves?

There is no "end of the road", only more new roads for you or me to take. We may not always be able to see them, but they're here, they have to be.

Needless to say, this is just my humble opinion and my honest belief.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

My opinion, FWIW, is that nothing is 100% therefore there is no unstoppable movement. My argument for those who say there is has always been why aren't we all doing their method since they would be able to beat everyone else with their "unstoppable" techniques?

I have never bought into the one true way of doing things. I feel each lineage/approach has at least one person who can make that method work for them, therefore making that approach valid. To claim one has "unstoppable" techniques or ones which can not be countered would seem, to me at least, to imply that one would be able to win every encounter and I just do not see that happening.

I do believe that Wing Chun, and many other arts, do have some very effective techniques which if applied correctly with the proper timing and structure can be ALMOST "unstoppable" but nothing is 100%.

Just my opinion nothing more :)

Peace,

Dave

[black and blue]

Almost unstoppable it is then!

;)

[quiet man]

LOL black'n'blue! :D (and here I thought you posed a serious question ;)...)

Imagine that on a poster or an ad: JOIN TODAY! ALMOST UNSTOPPABLE MOVES! ONLY IN OUR SCHOOL! YOU'LL BE ABLE TO ALMOST DEFEAT YOUR OPPONENTS!

[black and blue]

ALMOST FREE LESSONS, FROM AN ALMOST QUALIFIED SIFU. LEARN ALMOST ALL THE SYSTEMS FORMS - IN AN ALMOST QUICK PERIOD OF TIME.

TRAINING IS FUN, AND ALMOST INJURY FREE. YOU WILL ALMOST ENJOY IT.

And hey, it 'was' a serious question. I'm interested to hear about anyone's exeriences.

[quiet man]

OUR SIFU ALMOST LEARNED IN HONG KONG! TRAIN ON AN ALMOST WOODEN DUMMY! ALMOST TWO WEAPON FORMS! ALMOST TWO KNIVES!

(I know you are, that's why I gave you one. I was kidding that second time (hence the wink ;)))

[yuanfen]

Sifu X almost won all his fights!

[yuanfen]

And he is now teaching hand to hand fighting to the special forces of a kingdom that almost won a fight on their own....till .....

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I'm almost sorry I posted anything at all :p

Still I am happy that some are enjoying this :D


Peace,

Dave
BTW: I almost won everyo fight with my wife but she seems to get the upperhand all the time. Perhaps I should ask her about "unstoppable" or "unbeatable" techniques. Those of you with significant others may be able to relate to this. :p

[kungfu cowboy]

It really irks me when X says Y has Z and boy is it _________ ! And then they never proceed to tell you exactly what the X, Y, Z or ________ actually is. Pure drivel.

[yuanfen]

Dave- you have learn how to counter two moves.

1. the frying pan sao

2. the eye "whammy"..

then you may stand a chance.

[hunt1]

There may be unstoppable techniques from Duncan Leungs pov.

However I think he is really talking about my favorites. Cheapshots. You know the ones. Used by those who play Chi Sao tag everywhere. Examples :
Both rolling at a slow pace and then bam person hits the turbo charger to hit. Like tearing away from a stop light to get to the next light then saying they won the race.
You stop short of tearing persons head off so they can examine and correct their mistake but of course instead of trying to learn they take advantage of the pause to hit.
Variation you are polite so you show your hit but dont make contact .Other person ignores and of course tries to land a resonding smack.
And of course for Moy Yat people. Moy Yat always said do not hit on the roll so of course everytime a Moy Yat family person visits they always try to hit on the roll. Go figure.

[aelward]

I think Sifu Leung is referring to cheapshots, as well. <A HREF="http://wingchuninstructor.hypermart.net">Sifu Gorden Lu, </A> who trained partially under Sifu Leung, showed me a handful... they are basically tricks to use on occasion, but nothing to line your arsenal with, or learn to depend on too much.

I have found that I can use some of them as set-ups for more "legitimate" techniques.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


A quote from Leung Jan may be good for this discussion!


Bok Gai Bok Jeet!


100 moves/100 answers



Regards,

[yuanfen]

in principle-there is no unstoppable move.

[Phil Redmond]

Baak gei, baak jiht.
100 techniques, 100 intercepts.
Between me and Rene we'll get the Cantonese Romanizations right...lol.
Phil

[reneritchie]

Chi Sao =! Fighting

You can break the "rules" of Chi Sao, and unless your opponent is quite skilled, score a cheap shot that's very difficult to stop, but what would be the point?

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Phil,


Many thanks!


I dont speak Chinese so any help is appreciated!


Regards,

[flaco]

immaturre answers, again, this guy said that duncan said that in chi sau there are unstoppable moves, not in reality, so yes there are tricks in chi sau, that beat your opponent every time, and someone of duncans level would not lie, i find duncan a very humble guy, and he did say that in real fighting there are none of these possibilities.

he knows a game, chi sau, and he knows how to win, simple

[black and blue]

I have learnt a few methods, not sure if they're tricks or not, that involve giving the impression you have maintained stick with both arms when in fact you're subtly bridging both of your opponents arms with only one of your own arm (leaving the free arm to attack).

Are these 'tricks' for Chi Sau only?

IMO, they can be used in actual combat. A bridge is a bridge. In Chi Sau I may use these methods to free an arm to attack an open line. But my bridging 'two with one' is also good for defensive purposes - effectively controlling two arms with my one. The window of opportunity (time to utilise this) is brief, but it is, IMHO, more about closing down my opponent's attacking lines while freeing my own.

Just my opinion, and I'm a relative newbie.

:)

[TenTigers]

B&B (hey, that's my favorite)
I think you are correct in your description of the "false bridge" technique. I asked Sifu Duncan this exact question. I asked ,"what about guys who do cheap shots like this?" His response was pretty much what was quoted-meaning that some techniques-for the most part,work in chi-sao, but not in actual fighting, so in essence,you are learning an exercise, then learning how to defeat that exercise, which is defeating the entire purpose. Rene gives the answer-chi-sao=fighting. I have seen different styles use different methods of chi-sao. I don't know how he does chi-sao, but I can see his point. Southern Mantis chi-sao is their fighting, and you can play what I call "hard-core chi-sao" meaning, you attack from outside,bridge, and continue until one dominates/controls the other. Perhaps Gong-Sao would be a better term? Rene, could you please elaborate on your method of chi-sao? Yeah, I know it's hard to describe sensitivity, but I think most of us, have a handle on wing chun, and we might still get the idea?

[black and blue]

We have a number of ways of 'doing' Chi Sau

* Rolling with soft/light contact.

* Rolling with a relaxed but more pressing contact.

* Rolling and working on 'threading' attacks (slipping through gaps in opponent's structure) NB: Not using Pak Sau and Lap Sau.

* Rolling and using more aggressive methods (such as Pak Sau and Lap Sau) to clear the line, strip down obstacles.

* Playing one attack, one defend (to give each the opportunity to work on something in particular)

* Set attacks. Rolling and then the designated attacker does his thing.

* Gor Sau (a mix of all the major components of all the above) - sometimes done with light contact (when hitting) and sometimes done harder (ouch!).

These are the basic ways we 'play' Chi Sau. If we spend an hour on Chi Sau, we change training partners every 10-15mins to mix up the 'feel'.

[Tom Kagan]

Even modern full-scale warfare has rules of engagement. If oneside does something which breaks the rules while the other still attempts to stick to the rules, what can result is a situation where the side breaking the rules appears as unstoppable. But, as Mr. Ritchie pointed out, ChiSao is not fighting; it is practice. Thus, unstoppable, as a concept pertaining to ChiSao, is better interpreted as meaning unreasonable.

What is unreasonable within ChiSao? When looking at ChiSao from the point of view of technique, a technique would be considered 'unstoppable' if the person attempting to execute the technique in question is violating the rules while their training partner is still attempting to follow the rules. (This is what I believe is meant by the quote mentioning the fact there is not much point to running an obstacle course at a faster pace with the obstacles removed.) So, the answer to what is unreasonable within ChiSao, in part, depends on the rules (or obstacles) the two training partners agree to, implicitly or explicitly, for a given round of ChiSao practice.

However, because ChiSao is still only an exercise, there are some basic ground rules which apply universally. The 'cheapshot', as others have pointed out already, is a good example of 'unstoppable' within the context of ChiSao as an exercise. If my training partner attempts to execute a cheapshot during ChiSao practice while I am still trying to stick to the rules (i.e. I'm trying to train), chances are my training partner will succeed in hitting me. The result might appear as if it were 'unstoppable'. But, if this situation comes about, my training partner is, in reality, not 'unstoppable'; he or she is just being unreasonable. If my training partner is being unreasonable, my only recourse is to stop training with him or her. Interestingly, there are two ways to do this: 1) stop working out with that person, or 2) become unreasonable myself - in other words I no longer need to bind myself to some arbitrary rule. If I choose the latter, how many and which rules I need to break (and for how long) in order to deal with the situation depends on my level of skill and experience in relation to my training partner.

It should be noted that in such a situation, neither I nor my training partner would really be training ChiSao anymore even if what is really going on resembles ChiSao on the surface. However, if my skill is such that I can stick closer to the rules than my training partner (i.e: I am being more reasonable than they are), chances that I will gain more from that particular round of practice than my training partner regardless of how many 'point' hits he or she thinks they scored. Over time, my training partner will be stagnating while I and others, still attempting to train instead of 'scoring', are improving. If I choose to be unreasonable while still striving to get as close to the rules as possible, sooner or later, I'll figure out the best way to deal with a person being unreasonable. The unreasonable person, however, will still be unable or unwilling to figure out how to deal with me and I'll know quite well what is an appropriate level of being unreasonable for a given situation. They still won't have learned when or how to be reasonable, though. :)

Within the exercise known as ChiSao, I'll put forth the following exchanges of technique as being unreasonable: 1) A techinque which runs a large risk of injuring your training partner. 2) A technique which runs a large risk of exposing yourself to injury. 3) An initial technique choice which is better suited as a 'finisher' and, thus has no reasonable FahnSao (follow up technique). 4) The 'cheapshot'. 5) The 'showboat'.

The rest of what is unreasonable in ChiSao depends on the skill level of the two people involved. What might be reasonable to train between two advanced students who know and trust each other may not be reasonable to train with a beginner or someone they don't know. Along with what is agreed upon between two people as 'the rules' at any given point, what is considered unreasonable also depends on what is defined as the exercise known as ChiSao at a respective school.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Sihing73

BTW: I almost won everyo fight with my wife but she seems to get the upperhand all the time. Perhaps I should ask her about "unstoppable" or "unbeatable" techniques. Those of you with significant others may be able to relate to this. :p
maybe we should start incorporating guilt into our chi sau? then we'd be invincible. :cool:

as far as anything being unstoppable, no. i sometimes think my sisok is unstoppable because i can't seem to do a thing to him, but then i see his sifu and all bets are off. :o