WHY competition....

[Suntzu]

Pro's and Con's… why YOU should compete…

Pro…
Handling stress… fighting is a stressful event… real or sport… getting use to the body's responses to the fear of competition, real or sport, is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of competition… the body goes thru it's fight or flight responses… and YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM... the butterflies... the negative thots... the weak legs... you have to fight all of those, and more, b4 you even step foot near the ring... overcomming those responses time and time again will only make you more prepared for the next time you wanna earl up ya breakfast... you WILL begin to beable to fight thru them in order to access what you have learned... but those responses WILL rear their ugly heads everytime...

A resisting NON-cooperating opponent… after you getout of the bathroom and have a mint to get that taste out ya mouth… you MUST face HIM… who is he… u may or ma not know… but guess what he wants to kick yo' azz… now thru all the "noise" (heartrate, butterflies, etc.) you MUST access all of your learning and defend against all of HIS coping skills, strategy, techniques, HIS WILL TO LIVE... but the good thing is unlike the streets... u can have a beer with this dude once all is said and done...

not convinced yet :confused:
brb...

[Water Dragon]

Ya forgot the whole "cornered animal" thing.

What am I doing here? Why did I agree to do this? What's wrong with me? I should just bow out and leave. I'm not ready for this.

Not sure, but this would probably equate to, "Maybe if I just give him what he wants he'll leave me alone. Maybe if I beg he'll let me go."

Maybe, Maybe not...

[Black Jack]

Does not hard sparring fit into this same bill??

[Suntzu]

A 2nd Chance… you're at the bar mackin' some chick… this dude come out of the blue… "That's my girl b!tch!!!" pushes you to the floor… surprised you stand up… try to anyway… your legs are a lil weak… he's still running his mouth but you really don't hear anything that sounds like english... he\\ he might be cursing your mother out in some other un-godly language that you didn't bother learning... but you DO hear your heart... it sounds like its on your forehead its so loud and fast... you can hear the bottom of your lungs... your eyes glaze over... "Fu(k it" you tell yourself " I know Kung Fu"... guess what you said it outloud... POW... lights out... you wake with monocular vision... brace on your neck... and a sexy girl in a nurses uniform bending over you exposing the lusty portions of her cleavage... wet dream??? we wish... dude you got stomped out 2 nights ago.. and suffering from things unpronounceable without years of collecting student loans...

point? Beside my liking to write short crazy stories… in the ring/cage Lei Tai… there is a pretty good chance of you walking out of there with a minimal amount of permanent damage… at the almost most-est… you will get helped out/off… hospital bill will be at a managable amount if needed... and if you run across the sexy nurse... this time your face wont look like the elephant man... and you MAY have a chance at those digits...


brb for Black Jack...

[Fred Sanford]

I don't think there is anything wrong with competing.

I also don't think it's the only way to get real world skill.


A 2nd Chance… you're at the bar mackin' some chick… this dude come out of the blue…

last time I checked most sports fighting gyms don't really teach situational awareness or how to handle little dilemmas such as the one you made up. What makes you think you would do any better in that situation? oh wait maybe there is room to throw some roundhouse kicks in the crowded bar. sure.

...and you accuse the kung fu guys of being deluded.:rolleyes:

[Suntzu]

why I don’t think "Hard Sparring" fits the bill…

> on some level your training partner is cooperative… if a "KILL" shot is there… he wont go for the kill but rather 'TAP' you… hard tap lite tap… whatever… but knocking out your training partner is not a goog thing… KO'ing your opponent is CHEERED…

> stress… again… you know what the PARTNER has in his arsenal… you've seen daily… u know his strengths and weaknesses… injuries… u might even know his girlfriend… but an opponent… u know hardly anything about… with a partner you are not as stressed as you are with a stranger... with a partner... most of the time its sh!ts and giggles... with an opponent its d@mn near life or death... with a criminal... it IS life or death...

> improvement… IMO when it comes to partners you only improve as fast as they do… meaning… you only get better after they kick yo' azz and you have to adjust and get better… if your partner is at your level consistantly… YOUR progress is stagnant… but once they make a leap of progress... you MUST follow suit and continue to get creamed... that could take forever... but once you get stomped out in the ring or alley... you know where your improvements should be made and act accordingly... i'd rather take a loss in the ring personally...

[Suntzu]

last time I checked most sports fighting gyms don't really teach situational awareness or how to handle little dilemmas such as the one you made up. What makes you think you would do any better in that situation? oh wait maybe there is room to throw some roundhouse kicks in the crowded bar. sure. True… and that's how sport training is incomplete… but based on what I said about stress previously… due to MY( in the universal my ) dealing with and overcomming being scared sh!tless on previous multiple occassions… I recognize and sub due the fight/flight response immediately... know how to think on a nervous brain... and can react with a display of aggression immediatly or react with reason... basically i'll be able to think clearer(that's a word right?) than someone who doesn't deal with being sh!tless...

[Black Jack]

I don't agree but to be honest I could care less.

Fred's thoughts are closer to my own.

[Suntzu]

c'moon argue back… slow day @ the coal mine… help a bruvah out…

[Water Dragon]

I think Black Jack and Sun Tzu (and Fred) are comparing apples and oranges.

Black Jack and Fred seem to be talking about how to stop the fight from ever happening. Being aware, de-escalation, etc.

Sun Tzu seems to be talking about what happens if the Self Defense part has failed and you must fight.

I think there can be self defense w/o martial arts and martial arts w/o self defense.

[Suntzu]

I also don't think it's the only way to get real world skill. well… what other way to get real world skill that doesn't involve competition??

...and you accuse the kung fu guys of being deluded. just like a KF guy… all theory… no back up :rolleyes:
maybe now that I got personal I can get some convo…

[lkfmdc]

Self defense ability is seldom recognized as a benefit of sporting competition but the ability to use your martial arts skills in a real situation is dependent upon a number of factors. First, one must have the tools, offensive and defensive, to get the job done. This is the importance of offering a complete training program under the guidance of a skilled coach. The rest of the variables are less obvious but no less important.

Self defense ability can be tested by a student’s ability to use techniques upon an opponent who is knowledgeable of the techniques, resisting them and also attempting to launch their own attack. This ability requires not only perfecting the technique but developing your sense of space and range, the ability to see openings, reaction time and personal strategy.

Include into this equation the possibility that the opponent may be using techniques and strategies different than your own.
Furthermore, does one have both the physical and mental condition to engage in a struggle such as this? Does one have the strength, endurance, flexibility? The determination? Will they fall apart under the stress and adrenaline rush, freeze and forget everything they have learned? It has certainly happened in the past to many practitioners.

Remember, if you have not been hit or thrown full power (slamming into the ground) you don’t know how you will react to conditions such as these. This is a reality very few students of the martial arts are forced to deal with in current programs.

A boxer has been punched so many times that he no longer freezes when a blow connects. A wrestler or Judo fighter has been thrown many times and is accustomed to it. These three individuals are also used to exchange, working with an opponent who is both defending and attacking. They are also used to performing under high stress conditions, with large audiences and for extended periods of time. They benefit from experience gained by competition, i.e. sporting adaptations of what were once strictly combat/self-defense methods. Thus, combat sports allow the student to develop the “attributes” of a warrior, including the appropriate mental attitude.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Suntzu
why I don’t think "Hard Sparring" fits the bill… on some level your training partner is cooperative… if a "KILL" shot is there… he wont go for the kill but rather 'TAP' you…

How is this different than competition?

Eg. I watched Couture vs Rizzo for heavyweight UFC belt last night; good fight. One time C was on his knees and R kicked at him, bouncing C's hand into C's face. C immediately pointed at the ref who ran in and kept them apart until C caught his senses. Both fighters also turtled up the last minute of different rounds, knowing they could wait out their opponent's barrage and start fresh the next round. And in the later rounds, both fighters rested for almost minute-long lengths bellied-down on one another after a sprawl; knowing they could mutually catch their breath like this rather than needing to fight.

No surprises there; doesn't make it less of a good fight.

But it also doesn't fit the contrast you're making above.

[Suntzu]

Thanks Chris… once again re-read what I said about stress… and than re-read about the Non-cooperative opponant…

now for your example *adjusts smug scholarly cap*… so you mean to tell me that Rizzo doesn't have the attributes needed to survive a street confrontation b'cuz he rested at the end of a round in a ring fight??? He rested so now when Joe Drunkazz steps up to him in a pizzing contest... he would crumble under the weight of his own heartrate??? after hours of training in the Gym and testing it out he would have NOOOO idea what techniques he has available and which would work AT THAT MOMENT b'cuz of a rest in a ring fight... all of his training... conditioning went out the window b'cuz of taking advantage of a rule??? interesting...


But it also doesn't fit the contrast you're making above. how so??? B'cuz they decided to rest and continue the fight to knock each other out the next round… and that's just one example of one sentence of reasoning… it still doesn't discount the rest that I've said… and for every 'work' there are many KO"S which if happened on the street would have ended much worse than some drunk wannabe boooing him...

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Suntzu
so you mean to tell me that Rizzo doesn't have the attributes needed to survive a street confrontation b'cuz he rested at the end of a round in a ring fight?

No. I'm just saying the contrast you made between competition and hard sparring is incorrect. :p

[Suntzu]

:p well… to nit pick… actually… that’s an argument for prize fighting more than generic competition… an opponent is ALWAYS going to go harder than a training partner… unless ofcourse he sucks…

[Fred Sanford]

:D

[rogue]

Furthermore, does one have both the physical and mental condition to engage in a struggle such as this? Does one have the strength, endurance, flexibility? C'mon, we all know that you don't have to be in shape to be a deadly martial artist!;)

But.....
For various reasons not everyone can train to compete, so what does one do then?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by rogue
C'mon, we all know that you don't have to be in shape to be a deadly martial artist!;)

But.....
For various reasons not everyone can train to compete, so what does one do then?

If you are training with the idea that you may actually have to defend yourself one day, aren't you training to compete then?

[Fred Sanford]

nah, if you don't fight in mma or san shou tournaments then all of your training is a waste.

[rogue]

If you are training with the idea that you may actually have to defend yourself one day, aren't you training to compete then? I used to think that way and ended up with constant injuries from overtraining and picking the hardest hitting guys in my class during sparring. Not the best condition if I wanted to use my skills for self defense. Now most of my training is to be healthy and in good physical shape. Right now I'm trying figure out my goals and to find the right balance in my training to meet them.

[Black Jack]

Rogue its the fine line between karate-do and karate-jutsu. I say to hell with it and just learn martial arts from Sonny Chiba flicks.

Chiba is wicked applesauce.

[rogue]

I'll never forget "the scene" in Street Fighter. LOL.

Maybe I'm turning into a pacisfist, I've been doing CDT for the last couple of months. Heck I'm even certified non-lethal. :p

[Stacey]

the one where he rips the guys balls off?

as for competition....we compete because it is fun, it teaches us, it brings out the best in us. But mostly its just fun.

[rogue]

the one where he rips the guys balls off? Yup, and ouch.

[Suntzu]

nah, if you don't fight in mma or san shou tournaments then all of your training is a waste. not one time did I mention MMA or san shou… but I will say that if you don’t train to be competitve you are missing a large piece of the puzzle… be it conditioning… awareness of self and those around you… etc…

For various reasons not everyone can train to compete, so what does one do then? recognize their limitations…

[Ford Prefect]

I agree with Sun Tzu. The mental conditioning that you undergo while training for and then stepping into the ring to put it on the line is invaluable. Being able to be in control during the adrenaline dump that most people experience before fighting in front of the audience in competition I think is worth more than having a "high level of skill" in a martial art.

I've fought numerous times in boxing tournaments and in some bjj and judo tournies. Never once in training, no matter how hard I went, did I undergo anywhere near the same type of reality-bending adrenaline dump that I experienced in competitions. It can be seen a lot in the combat sport type martial arts. Every school has a guy that can clean up at the school, but can't do anything in competition. Guess why... He can't handle the dump. I know who I'd pick to win a street fight.

Drilling techniques and sparring in class may get you through real life encounters. It may not. IMHO, you are missing a whole new level that you could take your martial arts and your mindset to if you don't compete. Not only will you be better prepared for the adrenaline dump of a real encounter, but that confidence and poise under pressure will carry over to many aspects of your life.

[Liokault]

Why compete?

I compete because I love it.....well love it afterwards, during the training I hate it and right before I fight I really hate it (im getting a cold....is it to late to pull out with a cold? Would I look dumb if i pulled out now etc).

What you really need to look at is what you loose if u compete especialy if u train in a trad art.....if u want to win in competition there are things that you just cant train as much as u should and things that get droped for lokg periods of time. Also you need to change your reactions to stay within the rules of competition.

For example in my last competition I fought a guy who when pressed bent over at a right angle from his waste covering his face with his hands underneath him, in my trad training I would have instantly struck him on the back of the head with either a chain of palm strikes of elbows!! This is massively dangerouse and easly has the ability to cause instant lasting harm so it is obviously against the rules....as such i cant train to do such a thing and it is no longer an instinct for me to do so (as it is a just piled in the uppercuts to his face and knocked him out (twice lol))

[Shaolin-Do]

I agree training for competition and competing is good, but only to an extent. Yes it will teach you mildly the coping skills to handle the adrenaline dump of a fight, but only partially. The adrenaline dump in the ring is a completely different one than a real fight. In the ring, I personally just get excited, like a kid. Im there to have fun, to beat the **** out of someone, or vice versa, and shake hands, and I already know this, and accept this, otherwise I wouldnt be there. In a real fight, the adrenaline dump comes from the fact "is he about to hit me? Are his boys right behind/beside me? does this guy have a knife/gun?" Theres still several other factors but Im still tired too.... need my coffee more. Then I shall continue my thoughts.
SD
:o ;)

[fa_jing]

Competiting sure does light a fire under your ass for training, 'cause you know you've got to go protect yourself against a guy training as hard or harder than you.

I ain't talking about point-tourney's, either.

[ryuujin]

theres the put your gloves on and wait for the ref to pull the guy off of you kind, and then there is the theres nothing holding me back break them or break me honor tourneys. with no gloves and only one or two rules (no weapons usually)

the only things the first one can really do in my mind is make you not afraid of an opponent you dont know, or at least less afraid. The second on the other hand is only one step away from an actualy street fight. boy are they fun:D

[apoweyn]

Ryuujin,

How many of these "no gloves, two rules" matches have you fought in?


Stuart B.

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont know about fighting full contact with no gloves.... I dont think Im god or anything, but Id bust someone's face wide open, real quick. Im sure several people could do the same to me as well.

['MegaPoint]

"Why" indeed! Some forms of MAs feel the need to constantly prove their legitimacy as a fighting art. Many warrior culture based grappling "arts" like Judo and Kendo thrive on this. They are no longer of martial intent. They just go through "simulated" motions of near fighting. The same can be said of similar arts in other cultures. Pancrase for example, and boxing.

Many modern striking forms whether Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan or Korean feel that the proving ground is the ring. They have lost thier way and are trying to beat a path back to reality. So they construct, or reconstruct their reality. Competiton in moderation is a good thing of course (especially for poo-bu tt beginners), but if kumite/sparring/competition is all you train for then you are not really real. You could be more real than the average sap-sucker but you ain't for the real REALS, hahaha!

Neither judo nor boxing are used for military h2h training. Wrestling too. To some extent BJJ is used by the Rangers, but the Rangers have numbers with weapons and aren't really considered the elite of the elite. True Special Operators (SF, SEALs, Marine Force Recon, PJs and Combat Control) learn real fighting, fighting that keeps you on your feet as much as possible.

In the competion of life you are your own worst enemy. Know yourself and you will dominate any opponent. Just do what you do and forget about lengthy "strategery". Chess is for Central and Gorky Park and Prep schools. Decisive fighting is not seen in any competition, even NHB matches.

Where's Bobby Fischer?

[Shaolin-Do]

"Neither judo nor boxing are used for military h2h training"

ACJ = American Combat Judo
taught to a couple branches of our armed forces.

"True Special Operators (SF, SEALs, Marine Force Recon, PJs and Combat Control) learn real fighting, fighting that keeps you on your feet as much as possible."

They learn basic take downs, basic killing techniques. They learn what you can learn quickly and efficiently, in no way taking it to the level of "art form".

Im not trolling, just fixing a couple of points I saw.
:)

[Suntzu]

Where's Bobby Fischer? good movie…

but if kumite/sparring/competition is all you train for then you are not really real. You could be more real than the average sap-sucker but you ain't for the real REALS, hahaha! i agree... and I stated so...... somewhat...
True Special Operators (SF, SEALs, Marine Force Recon, PJs and Combat Control) learn real fighting, fighting that keeps you on your feet as much as possible. correct me if I'm wrong… but military are taught basic H2H… any additional and continuing H2H training is learnt on their time… and from what I hear… most gravitate toward the most ALIVE training situations… MMA... hardcore TMA… whatever…

In the competion of life you are your own worst enemy. hence the mental benefits that CAN be gained from the stress of competition…

[Shaolin-Do]

If you are a cutesy *** got @ss poppy punk band you are your own worst enemy too.

err....
ehehee.

;)

"any additional and continuing H2H training is learnt on their time… "

We have a couple of military personell in my class, from different branches doing different jobs.

[Merryprankster]

'megapoint, that must be why the Marine Corps H2H program looks awfully like MMA training...

Secondly, not to disillusion you, but our troops, special forces or not, are taught to kill with weapons. One more time....with WEAPONS. H2H is a small component of their training. They receive more than regulars, but not nearly as much as a fighter.

Finally, there is no such thing as "reality" training, unless you like getting in bar fights. And when that happens, you will eventually lose. And then, you might wind up dead. No thanks

There are rules in the training hall, just as in the ring. At least in the ring, the person across from me has fairly bad intentions.

[ryuujin]

to answer the question above the number is 6.


My uncle was in the SEALS and he said they went through very little material, just basicly how to defend themselves in the worse case scenarios, and only worked on them for a few short months. When it comes to military yes you have to figure them to train to use weapons, but last I checked we cant just go around shooting people to solve our problems, so we have to do things that will help us prepare for confrontation.

[Merryprankster]

You're missing my point. The argument that our special forces training doesn't look like 'x' so 'x' must not be the way to go is fallacious. Why? Because they train to kill people with weapons.

I'd be far more interested in their small unit tactics and weapons training than their h2h. Make sense?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by ryuujin
to answer the question above the number is 6.


My uncle was in the SEALS and he said they went through very little material, just basicly how to defend themselves in the worse case scenarios, and only worked on them for a few short months. When it comes to military yes you have to figure them to train to use weapons, but last I checked we cant just go around shooting people to solve our problems, so we have to do things that will help us prepare for confrontation.


Ryuujin,

You've been in six no glove, two rules fights? Details? Where and when? What were the rules? The outcomes?


Stuart B.

[Ford Prefect]

MP, You are kidding yourself. Any SEAL could take out Mark Kerr with a super-secret SEAL fighting technique quicker than you can say "competition". Get that through your head.

[ryuujin]

Ive won four, lost two. Ive broke my nose in it 3 times, got a concussion once and thought i blew my knee out when someone kicked it but it just turned out to be hyperflexed. That on top of heavy bruising a bleeding.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by ryuujin
Ive won four, lost two. Ive broke my nose in it 3 times, got a concussion once and thought i blew my knee out when someone kicked it but it just turned out to be hyperflexed. That on top of heavy bruising a bleeding.

[sigh]

I don't know how to ask for more details without sounding like I'm calling you a liar. And that's not my intent. I wanted to know the rules. Whether this was an event or a backyard type of thing. Etc.

Feh. Nevermind. I'll just take you at your word and move on.


Stuart B.

[ryuujin]

^
l

[rogue]

"True Special Operators (SF, SEALs, Marine Force Recon, PJs and Combat Control) learn real fighting, fighting that keeps you on your feet as much as possible."

They learn basic take downs, basic killing techniques. They learn what you can learn quickly and efficiently, in no way taking it to the level of "art form".


The couple of SF guys that I know all have H2H training outside of the what the military does. Now SF is a little different than SEALS in that they spend a lot of time training indiginous folk, some of whom would like to test how "deadly" their new teachers really are. Other times they've told me they had to use H2H is when they sometimes have to go places without weapons, or have been disarmed, as bodyguards, crowd control, sentry removal or when things just go wrong. Also they've had to work alone, without firearms. At least thats what I've been told.:)

[Suntzu]

ttmft... for shameless self promotion...