Gan Sao Straight vs Bent

[marcelino31]

I have seen many instructors teaching WC where movements like gan sao are done with the arm held straight as opposed to having a natural bend.

Which way do you prefer and why?

[AfroFire]

The natural slight curve, you could bang up your elbow in time me thinks after a few heavy gan saos :)

[marcelino31]

Hello,

I too prefer the slight bend in the gan arm, it helps to absorb and disperse force better than a straight gan.

With a straight gan against a strong blow you might get pressure on the shoulder joint ; with the bend, the elbow helps to absorb.

:D

[Miles Teg]

Chu Shong Tin employs a very bent arm when using a gan sau. When I say �every�f I mean more than a natural curve. Its probably around 100 degrees. I think the bend is something has added to W.C himself as no one else does it.
I think it definitely has some merits to it. It seems to be structurally stronger than a straight arm gan sau, while also being in a better position for a following strike.

[yuanfen]

I think the bend is something has added to W.C himself as no one else does it.
-------------------------------------------------------
Really? Not so.
An overgeneralization.

[yuanfen]

I think the bend is something has added to W.C himself as no one else does it.
-------------------------------------------------------
Really? Not so.
An overgeneralization.

[Miles Teg]

Hi Yuanfen
Do you do it this way as well?

I said 'I think' because I dont actually know. But it does seem like everyone else has a straight arm. Even in the Yip Man footage his arm seemed to be pretty straight when performing SNT.

If you do bend the arm, how much? Is it standard or does it depend on circumstances etc.?

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Hi Yuanfen
Do you do it this way as well?

I said 'I think' because I dont actually know. But it does seem like everyone else has a straight arm. Even in the Yip Man footage his arm seemed to be pretty straight when performing SNT.

If you do bend the arm, how much? Is it standard or does it depend on circumstances etc.?

Hello Miles,

The idea of bending the arm is to deflect incoming energy off the tangent of a circle...So the arm shape is circular...

regards...

[Phil Redmond]

Regardless of whether your arm is bent or straight, if you don't make proper contact your elbow will get banged. I teach that the contact point should be the fleshy part of the upper arm. Usually the gan is supported by the gam sau or the tan sau thus avoiding contact with the elbow. I have done both ways in full contact matches. Try fighting full contact with someone then see which one you prefer.
PR

[yuanfen]

Miles-

Form and applications are two different things. In applications
you auto adjust. So you can have a bend. In the firm- the true gan sao in slt- the way I do it- comes in the second of the three
group motions after the double ding sao and return to the sides.
At the begiining of the slt- the double sup gee sao -crossing hands-- is bent- its not a true gan sao.
joy

[Shuul Vis]

Mine is always curved for many reasons. For one, its structurally stronger being an arch rather than a wall. And secondly, a straight arm puts your elbow joint at risk.

[Miles Teg]

Wow I guess I was wrong. Lots of people seem to do it this way.

Yuanfen
You lost me a little, Im not so good with the termonology. Are you referring to the gan sau that comes after the tan. Just before the bong sau set?
So as I understand you do the gan sau in the form straight, but it application it varies depending on pressure etc. Sounds logical.
From what you've I heard from you about your lineage its not so different from chu shong tin. The gan sau can bend, you curve the line in the opening double tan and gan, you use 50/50 weighting, and forward pressure. Well it is similar if you consider how many variations there are in different w.c schools. Whats the story with your elbows? do you have them right in the center or what?

[yuanfen]

Reply to Miles in brackets:
Wow I guess I was wrong. Lots of people seem to do it this way.
(Their problem and option. No argument- but since you asked-If in the slt you do the gan sao with each hand bent- you(general you) are not learning to run the energy all the way to the fingers. The "strength" that one fells is basically one's own tense muscling))

Yuanfen
You lost me a little, Im not so good with the termonology. Are you referring to the gan sau that comes after the tan. Just before the bong sau set?

((Yes))

So as I understand you do the gan sau in the form straight, but it application it varies depending on pressure etc. Sounds logical.

((Yes- amount of bend depends on point of interception))


From what you've I heard from you about your lineage its not so different from chu shong tin.

((Some differences- but more similar than dissimilar))

The gan sau can bend, you curve the line in the opening double tan and gan, you use 50/50 weighting, and forward pressure. Especially when you consider how many variations there are in different w.c schools.

((Some differences--I beleive TST used to go straight up and down
in the opening-mine is a kwan. Best to learn the kwan early- its in the jong also- early))))

Whats the story with your elbows do you have them right in the center or what?

((Where the elbow is visually is less important than whether the elbow is in charge of the line. Peoples musculature and pecs and breasts vary. BTW since my name is joy- some spammers mistake my gender and promise breast enlargement and a bigger cup.
I wear a cup elsewhere when i have to<g>))

Yuanfen- joy

[Miles Teg]

Cheers mate.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Regardless of whether your arm is bent or straight, if you don't make proper contact your elbow will get banged. I teach that the contact point should be the fleshy part of the upper arm. Usually the gan is supported by the gam sau or the tan sau thus avoiding contact with the elbow.PR

Why use two arms to do the job of one? I would rather defend with one arm and attack with the other. Or better yet use the defending arm also in an offensive manner.

[Phil Redmond]

To block a hard round kick to the ribs is one reason. Without the gam sau the kick could slide up to hit your uppr gates. One hand can be sufficient to block a punch but *some* kicks need the support of two hands. I'll be doing videos for my site soon to illustrate how this works against someone trying to smash your ribs in. You have to try out techniques against a resisting partner who is really trying to hurt you to see what works.
PR

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
To block a hard round kick to the ribs is one reason. Without the gam sau the kick could slide up to hit your uppr gates. One hand can be sufficient to block a punch but *some* kicks need the support of two hands. I'll be doing videos for my site soon to illustrate how this works against someone trying to smash your ribs in. You have to try out techniques against a resisting partner who is really trying to hurt you to see what works.
PR


In the wc system i am currently training in it is not considered
advisable to block a kick that way. If you divert two arms
to protect your rib area and face the point of contact, as advocated by TWC, then you leave your other side unprotected and exposed. The opponent can kick you and while you are blocking with 2 arms he can punch to your exposed side. Sifu Cedric Grayson, explained this to me in detail and demonstrated these things.

I do not deal with a round kick to the ribs by just standing there and meeting it with a supported gam sau. Either an intercepting kick to the knee hip area is performed or better yet simply step into your opponent and strike him. Distance and timing is important here. Proper kicking distance is when hands cross hands. As someone has already mentioned, not sure who, TWC seems to fight at a further away distance, perhaps this is the reason you have to focus so much with dealing with kicks..

My motto is hands against hands and feet against feet.

Nelson Marcelino

[WCis4me]

marcelino wrote:

If you divert two arms to protect your rib area and face the point of contact, as advocated by TWC, then you leave your other side unprotected and exposed. The opponent can kick you and while you are blocking with 2 arms he can punch to your exposed side.Sifu Cedric Grayson, explained this to me in detail and demonstrated these things.
Are you saying you were blocking a kick from your sifu and while that was going on he kicked you from the other side? Or he just told you? Because if you saw it then it would have been a sight, like from a movie, as both legs would be in the air kicking and doing the splits, as he semi circled in air to meet both his targets simutaneously. Unless of course you were just standing there with no defensive or offensive movement and being positioned in various ways for the purpose of the demonstration.
From what you are saying there is one side open, while the other and most of the center is being blocked. That means the person would be doing the kick that was being blocked and simutaneously getting the other leg around to the other side to kick. As far as punching, if someone is doing a hard round kick to the rib area, their body is naturally tilting away from you, so how could they be throwing a punch at the same time? Especially if you go with your example about TWC and distance. You wouldn't be able to punch and kick simutaneously unless you were fairly close to one another. Then it wouldn't be a HARD kick to the ribs as that would require some distance. It also wouldn't be being blocked in the same manner, if it was in close.

The example you give seems to indicate that this was a slow motion, not aggressive, demonstration, possibly only a verbal one, as I don't see how someone can throw 2 kicks simultaneously to different sides, well without landing on their butt or being way off balance, and then punch with any sincerity to meet their target at that distance.

IMO, in a 'real' fight, you do not block the leg and then just stand there or wait in that position to see what else is coming (as you would in a slow motion, friendly demonstration). Once that leg is blocked (contact is made) you move on from it to anything else that is coming at you. If nothing else is coming at you in that split second, then the course of action should be you block, flank, attack. The defensive block of the kick should and can be part of a fluid movement to your attack. In fact if you block that kick your opponent needs to regroup his/her balance (as they are only on one leg, or in your example, no legs are touching the ground) before moving on to something else(happens fast which means you have to think and be fast, hence train train train, drill after drill, until your speed is developed).
IMO, if you used your arms you:
a) further disturb the balance by the contact with the leg without compromising your own balance;
b)by not needing to correct your balance you have more time to launch your own assault.
It is split second things like that can and do win fights.

Here is an example of what I mean when speaking of the tilt, distance, balance, and fluid movement to your attack. If you click on the picture while it is playing you can pause it/restart it. Gives a better visual move by move. It is the bottom right video under techniques.
Round Kick Example (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp)
FWIW I did try this with someone today, they did a kick to my ribs, I blocked, then they snuck in a punch from the same side (grrrrr was asking them to punch from other side)and I was still able to deflect that surprise punch and get my own punch in from my right(contact made on left side of lower jaw of opponent).

[marcelino31]

Maybe i didn't make it quite clear. I will say it again.

If your opponent steps in with a round house kick and you use two arms to defend against it then there is opportunity for him to punch you from your unguarded side. The video clip shown on the site doing the round house is not the way i am referring too. Car is stationary and Ryan is simply doing a quan sao while stepping off the line of attack. From this distance Car cannot punch Ryan.

Also Car is not doing a proper TWC round house kick he is supposed to step forward and then perform the round house kick.
It also looks like the kick is being done from to far away. Throwing the kick as shown is too telegraphic.

IMO i don't like doing a round house kick, even though it is a kick used in TWC. You mentioned Yip Man -- shouldn't we all be doing Yip Man wing chun? In what Yip Man form is the round house kick trained?

This is really getting off topic...The original topic gansao straight vs bent...lets talk about only that here..if you wish to continue please start another thread about using kan sao to defend against round house.

[WCis4me]

You mentioned Yip Man -- shouldn't we all be doing Yip Man wing chun? In what Yip Man form is the round house kick trained?
That reference was in another thread and completely on topic for that thread.
You have diverged on this thread quite a bit. I was responding to your diversion. Figured it was ok since you are the thread starter and changed topic first.
Interesting that you are not studying TWC, nor are you a sifu in that system, yet you are confident enough to feel qualified to educate us all on how/what a proper TWC kick should be (particularly a Sifu in the actual system and senior to you) among other TWC methods, theory and applications.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by WCis4me

That reference was in another thread and completely on topic for that thread.
You have diverged on this thread quite a bit. I was responding to your diversion. Figured it was ok since you are the thread starter and changed topic first.
Interesting that you are not studying TWC, nor are you a sifu in that system, yet you are confident enough to feel qualified to educate us all on how/what a proper TWC kick should be (particularly a Sifu in the actual system and senior to you) among other TWC methods, theory and applications.

Vicky, that is not a proper TWC round house kick, at least not as I was taught according to Redmond...

[WCis4me]

Vicky, that is not a proper TWC round house kick, at least not as I was taught according to Redmond
I don't know if it was meant to be or not, or if it a proper one or not, I am not that advanced. I figured it was right that is why I used it to illustrate.
I will check with Sifu Redmond, I am sure he can clarify for me. He has vast experience and is very accomplished with the TWC system (among other systems) that I trust his advice/correction/opinion, on anything to do with it.

BTW, even though I am clarifying about the video clip I referred to for my own clarity, I don't see how it matters in the purpose of this discussion. I did not realize that we were talking specifically about TWC round kicks, I thought it was round kicks in general, then various ideas on blocking them. I hardly think it would be practical to train against ONE type of round kick, or even a MA trained type of round kick. I would want to train against any kick that could be thrown, even from a non MA person.
Of course that is just IMO.

[marcelino31]

To get back to the discussion, I prefer the bent gan sao to the straight one...

[Phil Redmond]

Marcelino wrote:
Also Car is not doing a proper TWC round house kick he is supposed to step forward and then perform the round house kick.

Of course the kick isn't a TWC round kick. Are we only supposed to train against *one* type of round kick? The videos are demonstrations of possible situations/techniques, not *real* fighting.
PR

[sel]

sorry marcellino, this is going off thread.....
________________________
WCis4me,
the gan was definitely bent in that video. yes? or was it a seung bong rather than gan sau? in any case, the elbows were bent.

comparing your defense of a roundhouse kick to what i am taught,
depending on range we either step in (not to the side) or without a step do gan sau or seung bong and kick their supporting knee. stepping in rather than to the side or simply kicking forwards, brings immediate simultaneous defense and attack, rather than defense first then attack. the gan sau or seung bong is then a secondary or back up rather than a main defense. the main defense is our immediate attack to their supporting leg.
______________________
back to gan sau... we do gan with a bent arm. i agree with others who have pointed out that a straight arm risks injury to the elbow/shoulder and believe that a straight arm is weaker in structure to a bent arm. the bent arm also allows a 'springy' quality whereas a straight arm doesn't.

[marcelino31]

sel, your my hero!

woof woof :p