Chaan Sau

[marcelino31]

What is the purpose of the arm sweeps at the end of SLT?

[OdderMensch]

It wipes your meridians clean :D



I call that motion 'tut sau' and use it to clear a hand that has grabed my arm, to clear over the bridge arm, but I sure it does more then that.

Important to note is the idea that anything you seen in the forms three times is to iliustrate its importance.

[marcelino31]

Hello OdderMench,

Many sifus teach the clearing motion you just mentioned to defend against an arm grab.

However, if you use one hand to free another like that you risk being punched by your opponents other hand (the one not grabbing you). Against the grab i would rather prefer a yan jeung clearing motion or bringing the grabbed arm close in and performing an downard elbow strike motion (from bil jee form)

regards..

[OdderMensch]

In my school we train to hit first, clear the arm then hit again, but yeah, sometime it is better to use other motions, like folding over the elbow.

[Phil Redmond]

In TWC the chit sau movement requires a step back on the side of the grabbed arm so that you are not in range of an oncoming punch. Also, a strike before pulling away is used.
PR

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by marcelino31
What is the purpose of the arm sweeps at the end of SLT?

Training good hand replacement in the lower gate. The application of that hand replacement is up to you.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by marcelino31
Against the grab i would rather prefer a yan jeung clearing motion or bringing the grabbed arm close in and performing an downard elbow strike motion (from bil jee form)



Why? What is wrong with the SLT move?

[Grabula]

I have heard a few basic reasons for this. The first has already been discussed, using it to try to clear and arm, although in my experience it doesn't seem to be all that effective, nor has it been demonstrated to me to be effective.
The second reason I have heard is for sensitivity and a setup for soem chin na type stuff, running your hand down your own arm and onto your opponents. I haven't seen a reasonable demonstration of this idea either.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Have you ever thought about this move not being done low but rather at normal height like your other moves?

Things that make you go Hmmmm?

;)


Regards,

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


Have you ever thought about this move not being done low but rather at normal height like your other moves?

Things that make you go Hmmmm?

;)


Regards,

The old fox, is on to something....


;)

[marcelino31]

Actually the real application of the slicing hands is not to get out of a grab (either starting out with a strike, like a punch, or without it) its really a clearing motion (similar to the triple bil saos in bil jee) and if done higher like Jim pointed out also contains the concept for breaking an opponents structure (there is no need to step back).

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,
Have you ever thought about this move not being done low but rather at normal height like your other moves?
Things that make you go Hmmmm?
;)
Regards,

Taking the hand replacement concept emphasized low at the end of SLT, in the mid-gate in Chum Kiu (the "elbow breaks" in the first section) and high in Biu Jee (triple biu saus)... Hmmm indeed.

If we always say that Wing Chun is a conceptual system, why do people feel the need to picture direct applications in the forms? Are they Kata? To me that seems pretty limiting as opposed to focusing on attributes, concepts and energies.

[OdderMensch]

I have to agree with burnsypoo here, I don't think there is any single 'correct' or 'real' aplication to any motion in the forms. And i don't think there are meant to be. The firms are conceptual, every motion has uses, and most have multiple uses.

Now getting back to useing that specific motion to counter a grab....I am taught that this uses a principle my Sifu calls little bone-big bone.

When someone has grabed you on your arm below your elbow, and is keeping his distance (perhaps pulling you off balance or into a strike) You have an opertunity to use this motion to free your arm.

The first thing you must seek to do is mantain/regain your balance and try to hit the guy, a good hard strike can lossen a tight grip, then you put your forearm, not you hand (this will be critical later)above his gripping hand (say at your elbow) and open the hand on the arm that is being held. The idea is then to run your ulna down your radius and crush the griping hand's thumb between your ulna and your first metacarpel. If all has gone well now his thumb (at the phalanx, a little bone) is caught between your ulna, and your first metacarpel (both big bones) So you pit two big bones against one little bone, and as my sifu often says, little bone loses every time. if it fails? Go back to strikeing and soften them up a bit more. opening the hand on the arm being held keep the "fist in a jar" effect from helping him mantain his grip.

Now, is this the only way to escape a single arm grab, no of course not, but it is a good, simple way for a non bui jee student to do so, this is something we teach people before they even know SLT, as part of our basic self defense.

Also as others have stated this is not the only use for that section of SLT, it is but one example.

[reneritchie]

SLT, and all the sets, are far too economical IMHO to have any movement that is not:

a) of training benefit
b) of concept illustration
c) of power development
d) of application idealization

You should be able to use each and every motion in each and every set as a way to increase specific attributes, understand the system concepts, cultivate power and control of that power, and apply the art.

If the specific motion didn't matter, it wouldn't be there or could just be done any old way. If it was just limited to that, there'd be more sets.

[Grabula]

I am sure it has its use, I just haven't seen a good one yet! any ideas?

[Phil Redmond]

Actually the real application of the slicing hands is not to get out of a grab (either starting out with a strike, like a punch, or without it) its really a clearing motion (similar to the triple bil saos in bil jee) and if done higher like Jim pointed out also contains the concept for breaking an opponents structure (there is no need to step back).

There are too many variables to say what is the *real* application. Does anyone here have another *real* application?
PR

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
SLT, and all the sets, are far too economical IMHO to have any movement that is not:

a) of training benefit
b) of concept illustration
c) of power development
d) of application idealization

You should be able to use each and every motion in each and every set as a way to increase specific attributes, understand the system concepts, cultivate power and control of that power, and apply the art.

Excellent.
- kj

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by marcelino31
What is the purpose of the arm sweeps at the end of SLT?
What's a chainsaw got to do with Wing Chun? Is that a new weapons set? :p

[sel]

my understanding is that the 'sweeping' hand can continue forward to strike (like a chit sau or strike with the knife edge of the hand, even as high as the opponents face). the arm that is being 'swept' retreats to a guard...so if someone had hold of your arm, you pull it back as you strike forward with the 'sweep' arm, pulling your opponent into your strike.

i'm not sure that this movement really works all that well as a grab breaker, it certainly won't work for a beginner.

[Alpha Dog]

I saw the Texas Chaansau Massacre when I was a teenager -- it's what got me interested in Wing Chun.

[yuanfen]

I saw the Texas Chaansau Massacre when I was a teenager -- it's what got me interested in Wing Chun
---------------------------------------------------------
Running away from
some Chickasaws steered me toeards wing chun!!
I didnt have to end up in Texas- thank heavens.