now for something different

[jungle-mania]

I am sure everyone knows the BS between MMA and TCMA, one says the other is less realsitic than the other. I figured that the best way is test it out in a mock scenario like on the pathway, with 2 or 3 guys attacking a represenative from each style and see who comes out top first and the least damaged. If anyone is interested to do it, please share the clip, i would really LOVE to see it. Anyone up for the challenge? BTW, sanshou people should represent themselves, since they are a hybrid between the two.

[PHILBERT]

You lost me after MMA...

Ok, well, here is what I wonder, where is this going to happen? What is this pathway? Is it a mystical and magical place that I haven't seen? I swear I'm not drunk! Or on drugs...Anyhoo, what is this pathway? And what do ya mean 2 or 3? Like 3 MMA guys fight a TCMA guy and/or 3 TCMA guys fight a MMA guy? Well 3 on one, the one will loose each time.

The 3 MMA guys will attack the TCMA guy, one will get him to the ground, the other will hold him and the 3rd will rape him.

The 3 TCMA guys will attack the MMA guy, one will get him to the ground, the other will hold him and the 3rd will rape him.

I swear I am SOBER!

[Starchaser107]

yeah the same thing philbert said.. and what you mean share the clip, what clip, whhose filming this, Man try to be on some workable wavelength here .

[apoweyn]

I think junglemania is trying to say that the debate could be settled (or at least tested) by having an MMA guy and a kung fu guy jumped by three people while they were walking alone on a path. Whomever fares better will settle the debate. And someone can film it to share.

Either he's a mildly brain damaged programming exec from Fox television or he's advocating some scenario training.


Stuart B.

[Shaolin-Do]

That would show which of the 2 PRACTITIONERS was better, and hence solving.... nothing.
but yes, it probably would be interesting to watch.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
That would show which of the 2 PRACTITIONERS was better, and hence solving.... nothing.
but yes, it probably would be interesting to watch.

One run wouldn't even show that much. You'd have to run the scenario many times, as in most scientific experiments. Of course, by that time, the people involved would be used to it, which would colour the results too.

Face it. Not likely to ever get a satisfactory answer to that question.


Stuart B.

[Shaolin-Do]

We could have them both smash their faces through a 1 foot chunk of ice. That will determine quickly who is the better martial artist.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
We could have them both smash their faces through a 1 foot chunk of ice. That will determine quickly who is the better martial artist.

Er, yeah. I'll meet ya there.

[jungle-mania]

Yeah, apoweyn pretty much get the geist of it. Sorry about my poor control of grammar, I was bone tired when I wrote the thread. I agree with apoweyn that if we use the same practitioner repeatedly, it will make the results flawed. However, if we test the scenario several times with different pratitioners each time, that might reduce the margin of error in the final results. Even then, it might not settle the debate, but I believe that it will be provide a substantial material to based further argument on that matter in the future.

[Starchaser107]

I think its pretty much agreed on that its always dependent on the individual and not the style itself. Theoretically the project sounds workable if you somehow found the perfect representative of each style and not just any practicioner. Otherwise I dont think It would prove much. Would be fun to watch though.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by jungle-mania
Yeah, apoweyn pretty much get the geist of it. Sorry about my poor control of grammar, I was bone tired when I wrote the thread. I agree with apoweyn that if we use the same practitioner repeatedly, it will make the results flawed. However, if we test the scenario several times with different pratitioners each time, that might reduce the margin of error in the final results. Even then, it might not settle the debate, but I believe that it will be provide a substantial material to based further argument on that matter in the future.

No worries jungle-mania.

Well, even with multiple practitioners, I'm not sure it would prove much. You would really need to set some parameters. 'Traditionalist' is completely meaningless. Even 'wing chun stylist' is meaningless. One school could blow, while another is excellent. So you'd need to run multiple runs with different students from different schools. And you'd need to account for the tendency of a given school to perform. (In other words, if the students of a given school tend to suck, then it's probably a reflection on that school and not the effectiveness of the style itself.)

That whole process would only get more confusing once you start with the mixed martial artists. What's the mix? What's the ratio? (How much wrestling vs. boxing vs. whatever)

As has been said before, I don't think this would ever prove anything beyond the effectiveness of the individual. Too many variables. (Hell, something as random as a person's frame of mind at that second could 'taint' your results. Is this guy's style ineffective, or was he just depressed about a recent breakup? Distracted by stresses at work? Etc.)


Stuart B.

[Oso]

you know, we didn't have this stupid question before the gracies started all that NHB stuff.

who let 'em into the country anyway?

anyone check their visa?

have they got greencards?

I think martial arts should be treated like vegetables. You can't bring vegetables and fruits into the country w/o an inspection. We traditionalists should have been allowed to inspect the gracies and deny them entry.




yea, that sounds good. (in my best Strongbad voice)

[apoweyn]

[quietly perusing his own green card]

Yeah!! :)

[rogue]

Too many variables. (Hell, something as random as a person's frame of mind at that second could 'taint' your results. Is this guy's style ineffective, or was he just depressed about a recent breakup? Distracted by stresses at work? Etc.) Which is always a problem with scenerio training. The more you try to set it up to be realistic the less realistic it becomes.
A nice scenerio training technique a friend used on me was real simple. We were both working in a city and walking back to work after lunch. I was hot on stick fighting at the time and going on about it. While still walking he set up this scenerio using the very area we were walking in. "You notice someone approaching you with obvious ill will, they are 60 feet out, find a stick", after about 2 seconds he says "he's 40 feet out", after another second, "he's 20 feet out", another second "he's on you". Never found a stick.

We've since done the same thing with different goals (escape, fighting, protecting someone else) in bars, walking down the street, and at work. It's cheap, can be done anywhere at anytime and doesn't get you tied up in thinking just about technique. Kind of like Dungeons and Dragons for self defense.

[apoweyn]

LOL

D&D for self defense. Beautiful. :)

Good drill though, yeah. That's the thing. All the physical capability in the world doesn't make much difference if, at 'go' time, you can't bring those things to bear on a target.


Stuart B.

[Former castleva]

Abstract;
Randomized Double blind trial. Dr."Former castleva" War sciences. University of War Sciences. 2003
Setting:Blind Alley.
BACKGROUND:There has been a lot of discussion on whether traditional martial arts are worthy for modern times and they have been constantly compared to MMA (Mixed martial arts)
There has been very little empirical study being done before,we felt there exists a need to publish such.
METHODS:Comparable method;Practitioners of martial arts of Chinese Kung-Fu and Brazilian jiu-jitsu,unaware of each other´s identity,were placed into a blind alley.
The aim of this test was to test whether kung-fu stands up to MMA and whether it is more effective than pure placebo.
RESULTS:3 documented confrontations between kung-fu and MMA practitioners partly confirm the claim that kung-fu is effective for combat.Kung-fu was able to cause pain but our limited study suggests that kung-fu may not be very effective for causing chronic pain.Some BJJ exponents reported having felt no pain.
Where kung-fu proved to be more effective than pure placebo,MMA was found to be a favourable pattern for causing injuries such as neurological ones and fractures.
CONCLUSIONS:Kung-fu proved slightly more effective in confrontation than no organized method.The study suggests that MMA is favourable and much more effective when compared to kung-fu.Considering that this study may not represent the whole picture,rigorous research is encouraged.

[norther practitioner]

please remember that n>=30

[jungle-mania]

What if we raise the scale of difficulty for the test, instead of haivng 2 or 3 people jumping on the MA practitioner, we get 5 or 6 guys with no martial art background (I like to keep my hope that most martial art pratitioners are not thugs) jumping at him in one go with trashcans, plastic chairs, etc (but no knives or hammers or such, since this is a mock up) in a bar or on the road. Anyone keen?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by jungle-mania
What if we raise the scale of difficulty for the test, instead of haivng 2 or 3 people jumping on the MA practitioner, we get 5 or 6 guys with no martial art background (I like to keep my hope that most martial art pratitioners are not thugs) jumping at him in one go with trashcans, plastic chairs, etc (but no knives or hammers or such, since this is a mock up) in a bar or on the road. Anyone keen?

Honestly, I don't think the scale needs raising. I'd be extremely interested to see how people faired in this scenario training with just three assailants. I'd be very impressed if people performed so well that it warranted doubling that number.


Stuart B.