Taiji's Proficiency

[StickyHands]

Hi! Me again :D . Anyway, there are many practitioners and teachers who train and teach well. But as with the high rate of numbers, there are also many taiji practitoners, while prolific with the other stuff, forms, cultivating internal energy, but those who aren't interested in competition or fighting, but think they are learning fighting in the process anyway. My question is that there many trainers who aren't able to fight at all despite the years of training. How does one prevent this from happening, acknowledge that he can "actually" fight effectively, and utilize Taiji as any other deadly MA? Thanks.

[Laughing Cow]

StickyHands.

For me there are a few types of MA out there:

1.) Those that can fight and do so.
2.) Those that can fight but don't do so.
3.) Those that can't fight.

IME, the 2nd group is by far the largest.

I am still smiling at all those guys that reckon a MA must show his skill in a fight for it to be acknowledged/recognised.

I don't need to see my Sifu fight to see/understand that he can do so.
Once you have been long enough studying MA you can assess people and their skill by observing them.

In Chen TJQ I have heard a saying that an Instructor only needs to watch someone perform "Warrior's attendant pounds the mortar" to asses his skill and understanding of the art.

It is my belief that similar holds true for any system/style.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Yes, but your missing the point. I asked for those who train in the "intention" of learning to fight, but not necessarily fight, such as tournaments. How does one know when doing Taiji that he's skills are prolific for a fight or SD? Because in an external system, you can pretty much imitate and get some of the stuff right and train henceforth, but something like Taiji, you have to have a feel for it instrinsicly, am I right? Even after all that training, many practitioner simply cant fight. Im sure it's true for any other systems as well, but Taiji being complex as it is, it becomes extremely polar- either u know how to fight using internal energy or u dont- there is no some or middle ground about it.

[Laughing Cow]

Stickyhands.

If a guy is trained correctly in TJQ he will know how to fight.

Problem I see is that too many students rely on the style to make them a good fighter without realising that it is them that are failing and not their style.

Taiji like any other MA system relies on the effort put in by the student and critical self-analysis.
The fighting attitude does not come from the style or training but must be present in the student.

Too many students these days are NOT willing to put in the effort and time to learn TJQ properly.
I see it even in my class where seniors after a few years of study still get corrected on basics and stuff I was told to look out for in the first few lessons.
Now I don't think it is the fault of my Sifu.

Said that how many students really stand in Zhang Zhuang for 1 hr every day or practice each form 10 times a day.
This I do believe are the basic requirements that it takes to learn TJQ properly.

Too many people today don't realise that the masters of old were the exceptional few and not the norm.

One last point it is said in the Chen TJQ classics that you should NOT train with the intent of fighting, as it takes away from the training.
Therefor if you only think about using it for fighting you will miss the goal, your intent should be on correct basics, principles, etc and not fighting.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

IC, but it is a martial arts, and fighting is an integral core of it. Otherwise, besides health benefits, why would one be training for any MAs at all?? Most of us who just train, but not with the intent to enter tournaments, do so for Self defense. So if you simply just stick to doing qi gongs, you'll never have any efficacy when protecting yourself right? I understand that people dont train the basics in Taiji with that much effort, but considering how long it takes and how vigorous yet slow it is, most people dont seem to just have time for it. That's why I see a lot of people (not to stereotype but old people out of shape or people that seems have nothing to deal with martial arts) taking Taiji for excercise and health purposes, neglecting the martial or SD aspect of it. So sometimes the teachers as well change their curriculum to make it training friendly, hence you lose the sight of Taiji is all about. Where as something like karate :D, will dictate either train to fight or the get the hell out.

[Laughing Cow]

StickyHands.

Here is a rule I once learned in connection with MA.
"CMA are Family Arts, JMA are Combat arts."

The point I made is that if your ONLY goal is to fight or for Self Defense your mind will be too pre-occupied to master TJQ or ANY other MA correctly in order to become a good fighter.

Who is talking about qi-gong and forms only, there is a LOT more to TJQ than is advertised and commonly known, TJQ is a very complex and intricate system.
But if trained correctly can get you up to usage level as quickly as most other systems.

TJQ is a difficult system to master and unless you give 100% during your training and focus 100% on the basics and principles you won't get it.

At times we train with the national champion at our kwoon and when we finish the class you can see the difference(sweat, exhaustion, etc) between him and the rest of the students, even though EVERYBODY trained the same routine.

Hard to put into words, but there is a different level of commitment and intent between him and the average guy at the Kwoon.
He can do a form once and gain/advance more than I could if I did the same form 5 times.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

Try this one next time you see a guy perform a form look at his face and eyes and than do the same with a master.

You should see a difference and this is what separates them from us.

Also remember Internal arts still start off with external training initially.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Well, not to be mistaken, I did adhere to the fact that you mean Taiji isnt only about fighting, and I do not doubt the capabilities of the masters, but I was referring to the common joe in actuality. :) This is off the topic, but does Taiji or any of the other interal arts incorporate flying kicks or spinning kicks, high jumps, or may be mild acrobatic stuff like other external styles? Thanks. Great talking to you.

[Laughing Cow]

Chen TJQ includes jumps and jumping double kicks.

Chen TJQ if done correctly looks closer to Shaolin styles than the more common Yang TCC.

[Empty Fist]

Interesting, I was under the impression that northern styles emphasized higher kicks where as southern styles (Tai Chi Chuan) emphasized lower kicks. Anyway my teacher’s master, William C.C. Chen, said that if you cannot defend yourself with Tai Chi Chuan after 3 years of training then you are doing something wrong.

[taijiquan_student]

Taijiquan IS a northern style, not a southern one. My teacher has told us that William Chen quote too, as Master Chen was one of his teachers.

[Brad]

Interesting, I was under the impression that northern styles emphasized higher kicks where as southern styles (Tai Chi Chuan) emphasized lower kicks.
Taiji is a Northern style, and uses higher kicks in forms practice a lot of the time.

[Empty Fist]

Thanks for the info. I’d hate to walk around with a sign on my back that says kick me without anybody telling me :D One of my Tai Chi Chuan books (can’t recall the name) shows a map of China outlying the geographic region where Tai Chi Chuan was developed. Couldn't make out if it was north or south (the area was right in the middle). Curious….The Yang Short Form I learned does not have any high kicks. The highest kick is “ Turn Around with Lotus Kick”. The kick, as taught by Master Chen in the short form, is a mid-level kick. I’m not aware of any high kicks in the Yang style. If anyone is aware of any Yang style high kicks please share your comments and the name of the posture. Thanks.

[Rurouni Kenshi]

i dont think that taiji fighting technics are in forms, not more than any karate technic are in kata.
but taiji has principle, like body straight, sole of the yang foot grounded, shoulder relaxed and so on.

so if you think about spin kick, the sole of the foot is not grounded, so this can not be in accord with taiji principle.
for high kick, few kicks permit to keep the body straight and relaxed.
and for the jumping kicks however they are in the form and it can be possible to generate jin from it, i doubt that any serious fighter would use it in real fight

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Rurouni Kenshi
i dont think that taiji fighting technics are in forms, not more than any karate technic are in kata.
but taiji has principle, like body straight, sole of the yang foot grounded, shoulder relaxed and so on.
so if you think about spin kick, the sole of the foot is not grounded, so this can not be in accord with taiji principle.
for high kick, few kicks permit to keep the body straight and relaxed.
and for the jumping kicks however they are in the form and it can be possible to generate jin from it, i doubt that any serious fighter would use it in real fight

I disagree, there are techniques used in fighting in both kata and in the taiji forms.

And whether or not the sole of the foot is on the ground while doing a spin kick when the kick is actually thrown is a matter of how you train.

I also believe that the use of any technique, such as a jumping kick, can be effective if employed at the right moment. In my definition of a "serious fighter" there is the understanding of the constant change involved in fighting, and the need to free the mind from any limits, using whatever might be appropriate at any given moment, including jumping kicks.

No personal attack intended, but I usually find that the argument that certain methods or techniques won't work in a fight are advanced by people that aren't effective with that particular method or technique. While one individual perhaps can't make a certain technique or method work, its not a good idea to assume that another "serious fighter" is bound by the same limitations.

While there are limits, they are usually a product of ones training and outlook. Personally, I've found that if as movement has survived centuries and still remains a part of the training of the best proponents of a given art, those technioques or methods will work (such as the jumpinmg kicks in the chen forms). Usually its a question of understaning when and how to apply the knowledge.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps this is a case of "not seeing the forest for the trees".. it's all there.. the MA, the health, the spirituality, the meditation, the philosophy, it's all there.. Now, either the instructor or the student (or both) may not have the intention or inclination to deal with all of those aspects, but it's not a failure of the art itself..

A bit of wonderful wisdom imparted to me goes something like.. "we are what we have chosen to be, the beauty of it is that we are free to choose again and again.. " Too often we hear people lament the poor instruction, the poor quality of students, the lack of combat effectiveness in Tai Chi, etc... Choose again, find a better teacher, move to another area, visit China, test yourself.. but, stop blaming the Art until you have experienced the fullness of it.. Centuries of history detail the benefits and practicallity of Tai Chi, yet.. the dark imaginings of people affected by a couple of poor experiences would seek to devalue this Treasure of the Orient..

Even those that train for primarily health purposes, if they train with focused intention, will find enhanced reflex actions (muscle memory) in times of need.. the sad expectation by too many is that Tai Chi should produce some World Class "whoop A$$" champion.. if that's the goal, i suggest that you have misconceived the nature of Tai Chi.. it CAN produce that person, but why?.. when there is so much more to living a quality life than being a bad-a$$.. That being said, i do train/teach as hard as any other school i am aware of in the martial aspect of Tai Chi, i simply balance that with health and meditation/philosophy.. in almost every instance, once the student is exposed to the depth of philosophy and spirituality in Tai Chi, the desire to fight diminishes while the training to fight increases.. Another excellent piece of wisdom i have seen in here is.. "better to be a warrior in the garden, than a gardener in the war".. of interest is that the better part is in the garden, not the war..

oops, i've rambled again, sorry.. Be well..

[Laughing Cow]

It is my belief that you won't get the FULL benefit of any system unless you train all the aspects.

Agreed that sometimes changing teachers might be needed in order to be able to cover all the aspects.

One thing I see often in the kwoon is a lack of communication from the student to the teacher.
And thus often the teacher is not fully aware of the students needs and desires.
Which often results in a disgruntled student leaving to seek a new teacher.

Cheers.

[Rurouni Kenshi]

Walter, if you know how to do a spin kick at full speed and power while keeping the sole of the foot grounded please tell me.
in years of taekwondo training (which i do not practice anymore)
i never seen anybody able to perform a spin kick this way.

for the limitations to the kicks, you should read the book of yang jwing ming, wich give a complete insight of the way kicks are used in internal martial art.
the main problem with high kick is to still be able to emit jin, otherwise it is just external.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

During the spin the foot is rotated by a toe-to-heel/heel-to-toe motion positioning the foot squarely on the ground just ahead of contact.. this permits a full connection to the ground and a substantial transfer of "earth energy".. or so i was taught.. additionally, if you can rotate the DanTien ahead of contact, it is possible to whip this technique into position..

Be well..

[Ron Panunto]

High kicks in real fights are low percentage techniques. With one foot high off the ground your balance is precarious and you expose your groin to your opponent, and in the case of a spinning kick you expose your back to your opponent. Any savy fighter will rush a person trying to do a high kick and knock him on his ass. This is what taiji stategy is all about - close the distance ASAP and keep your opponent off balance.

There are high kicks in the taiji forms, but they are used for training. Real kicks are mostly to the shins and knees and occasionally to the groin and stomach.

If you want to practice using taiji to fight with, then fight as part of your training. This can be done with moving free-style push hands, posture applications training, and sparring.

Ron Panunto

[Walter Joyce]

I do know how to throw full power spinning kicks with the sole on the ground, the kick isn't thrown until thethe foot is planted.

As for Yang Jwing Ming, I rarely if ever rely on his advice.

And lets not conuse jumping kicks with high kicks...there is a difference.

[looking_up]

Hey Walter,

Looks like you've been training more, posting less. Thanks for reminding me about that lesson...

Are you still training bagua, or have you been converted completely over to Chen style for the moment?

Cheers!!!