Internal and Holistic

[Phenix]

I think the term Internal art might be better change to HOLISTIC?

IMHO, internal is about developing oneself and art as a "whole" and "INSIDE OUT" instead of "fragmented" and " outside".

As for inside out,

One develop both the Tee (body) and Young (application)
and at the end Tee and Young become one.

1, For example,

the application such as the Lau concept. (lau sau)

if one has the mastering of Tee or body of "flowing naturally" eg. like water. Then, automatically, one Lau when it is time.

But then, it takes years to master the "flow naturally" like water. So, learning Lau concept is great so that one can use the Lau concept before one master the "flow naturally".

Once one master the "flow" Lau is automatic. Such as one doesn't mechanically recall to step on gas while driving a car.


2, Since human is not robot, every human has it's special characteristics. Certainly, one can learn formulars, kiu sau.... or intention focusing and put them to use.

But then, those are just like programming. This programming of method of application. is called learning the Suk or technic. This doesn't make use of one's full potential and very very oftern will not get one to advance stage. Thus, this type of learning might get one to a certain level very fast but after will remain there forever or decay with old age when the mind and body aging.

As for Dao cultivation, one has to look inside onself, find the characteristic of oneself.
Inside to outward, align the characteristics or nature of oneself to harmonise with the art one is learning. Will Dao cultivation, one will flow with the nature as needed. Certainly this is not easy and will not be able to short cut. One has to find out one's breathing, one's mental states, one's thinking pattern.... one's body up to pinky. .... then Qi the heat comes in.. then the internal organs... then the slight move of body weight..... then the focus and awareness in mind.... examine every pices... and then examine the incoming force... the vectors of force.. diferent type of forces..

There is big reason one need to get to total relaxation. only when the body is total relax. (One can get the breathing method to relaxation from DR. Gay Hendricks breathing research.) Then, one can enter the state of Silence. When the mental is in the state of Silence, Here one can learn and reporgram the mind and body. ( Here is begining of the Deep which refer by Dr. Andrew Wield in Sound body sound mind.... ) One can find out one's reaction on certain things which we got condition when we are baby... From here, this state, one can find out how one pull "reverge gear" or creat trouble or tensing pattern for one's own body or mind... Thus, in the Chi Sau, oftern one is one's enermy.

Then, after passing the relax and silence State, one get into the STillness state, as in the Surangama sutra states this as entering to the "flow of sage". or "entering the flow and vanish the one who enter"... and the samadhi cultivation started here...., where the person "who" is doing the contemplating needs to be "remove" in order to enter. while doing this one investigating concentration, awareness..
This is where the Chan cultivation started. Without the Relax. silence.... one is far away from Chan... So, it is not that simple about seeing a sifu or following a formula... saying a matra....


It is from the Stillness state, advance martial art will be realized, healing is possible, FAjing or reciving Jing can be understood.
And since the stillness state has level of deepness. every level brought one different capabilities....

As it was saying in the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuen Kuit, "Thus, Thus NOT moving is the real Ying Yang, the precious Jewell not Moving (in still), the application is spontaneous."

IN the holistic path there is no short cut. and any polution of mind will bring one to distortion path as it was called Demon path in the past. Thus the precepts in Buddism as a purifier is a must to entering this gate of samadhi.

That is also the reason I never belive the Shao Lin Chan monk create WCK as the ultimate fighting art... If those Shal Lin Chan monk does this either they have no cultivation or they are in distorted state. I belive Shao Lin Chan monk has cultivation, thus, I don't belive they inventing " the ultimate fighting art " to KIll Qing.

If WCK just an art with only some Applications method then WCK is not holistic but external. If WCK has only Body or Tee training method than WCK is just a healing art. If WCK also has Body or Tee cultivation method then WCK is a holistic art. Certainly, the power of WCK is not only from Application but a both the application and Body system-- a whole.

So, I would say, Holistic might be a better word then Internal.
What is a better word for you to describe the above?

IMHO, i won't say I am know it all. But the above model might serve a reference for who would like to see the link from a detail to a whole.

[kj]

Yes, Hendrik, this rings with me. I have also seen you use the word "wholesome." Coincidentally, Ken also uses that term to describe our Wing Chun. Our methods will naturally vary, but at the heart of it we seem to share much by way of common perspective. "Holistic" works, as does seamless integration in the fullest sense. Naturally, it is the underlying implications of these terms which is important, more than terms themselves.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Hi KJ,

Yup. Holitics or Wholesome.... Human is Human. WCK is WCK... different but the same.

I guess it is time to use the western terminology to describe the ancient Chinese meaning. So, the word means something and the state mean something which is touchable and achieveable. otherwise, it is useless praise to the ancestors' treasure....

Emei or Shao Lin are great when discuss about History. But the key of opening the Ancestor's treasure has to base on true comprehension of experience of the nature independent of westerners or oriental.

[yylee]

many times Sifu's words begin to make sense once we go deeper into relaxation. It is like the body is suddenly showing you more messages and pictures. Things become clear..... Some say ChiSau is a sensitivity training tool, but what are we trying to sense? To sensor our own body? or the master in front of you?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee
many times Sifu's words begin to make sense once we go deeper into relaxation. It is like the body is suddenly showing you more messages and pictures. Things become clear..... Some say ChiSau is a sensitivity training tool, but what are we trying to sense? To sensor our own body? or the master in front of you?


One can use concentration to Censor one's awareness.

To sense one needs to let the concentration go so that one aware of what is going on around one. If the concentration of forcing toward.... that will lost the awareness and become rigid, then one starts trying to force thing the way one wants..... fear of getting hit, anger of got hit.... all raise up when the "center" lost.

Not easy stuff and certainly can't use black and white to describe it but it is there. concentration, awareness, "pull away me" as entering the stream of surangama.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix


To sense one needs to let the concentration go so that one aware of what is going on around one. If the concentration of forcing toward.... that will lost the awareness and become rigid, then one starts trying to force thing the way one wants..... fear of getting hit, anger of got hit.... all raise up when the "center" lost.


In the beginning one may easily mix muscle intent with Yi, thinking Yi is just pushing more and pushing forward. Certainly the center will be lost as tension builds up. But the relax kind of Yi is still not easy to attain....

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


In the beginning one may easily mix muscle intent with Yi, thinking Yi is just pushing more and pushing forward. Certainly the center will be lost as tension builds up. But the relax kind of Yi is still not easy to attain....


If mix muscle intent with Yi to push forward, then, that is similar to an object that travel outward without a "self resultant equilbriun".

What happen is there has to be a Self-resultant equilibrium within the object that travel outward for the object to be lively and self balance dynamically. That self resultant equilibrium , IMHO, just to generally and to link things, in Yee Chuan is called Cheng Lik or figthing or resultant force. In TaiJi is called the Peng JIng. In White Crane Eng Chun, It is called the Sun Potential or Chao Yang sieh. Without the development of this Self resulatnt equilibrium force or can look at it as a gravitational force which to hold and dynamicly balance the " core" or "structure" or "self" of the object together. The object will be easily deflected. Since it is a "dead" object.

Now, since human is alive and since there is awareness and concentration and self alignment involve. it is very "alive" and adaptive. So, Thus, I argue and disagree about SLT training is about kiu sau of Qi or... fragmenedly. IMHO, nothing is advance if the training doesn't get holistics.... so it is not the set it is the people who train the set holisticly which is the indication of the letter "small" detailly holistic. and also , it is the set, if the set doesn't design in this way then disregard of how one train, say the TaiYUKu kata or Pin an Kata, one will not get there. It is different DNA.

IMHO,
Why doing the so called Sam Pai Fut in SLT ? there are alots has to do with the self-resultant equilbrium.

Thus, that is not Hung Gar's Iron Wire. That is not other styles' Sam Pai Fut, the name might be the same but it is different thing. IMHO, based on DNA of the art. And in SLT, is that only the Sam Pai Fut has to do with the self-resultant equilibrium, imho, no, all moves have to do with it. Now, without this self-resultant equilibrium, WCK will not show its total potential. IMHO. I can be wrong, certainly.

Nothing is easy, even just to sort out and experience a little this or that is not easy. See the TaiJi people doing Taiji and having all the clasical theories... but how many really can pin point every concept? and walk the talk? Not to mention master the talk. ( Here is not to put down Taiji, but to state a reality that it is not easy without lots of investigation holisticly)

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix

What happen is there has to be a Self-resultant equilibrium within the object that travel outward for the object to be lively and self balance dynamically. That self resultant equilibrium , IMHO, just to generally and to link things, in Yee Chuan is called Cheng Lik or figthing or resultant force. In TaiJi is called the Peng JIng. In White Crane Eng Chun, It is called the Sun Potential or Chao Yang sieh.


hey, we have "Jaan Dai Lik" in WC, and the almighty Tan Sau! :D Of course it is not just pushing the elbow outwards.....



IMHO,
Why doing the so called Sam Pai Fut in SLT ? there are alots has to do with the self-resultant equilbrium.


don't you feel more calm after a few SPF cycles? I say it is a good conditioning before going into the x-sau, y-sau section of the form.




Thus, that is not Hung Gar's Iron Wire. That is not other styles' Sam Pai Fut, the name might be the same but it is different thing. IMHO, based on DNA of the art. And in SLT, is that only the Sam Pai Fut has to do with the self-resultant equilibrium, imho, no, all moves have to do with it. Now, without this self-resultant equilibrium, WCK will not show its total potential. IMHO. I can be wrong, certainly.


IMHO, that so call SPF, its body mechanics and tranquil mindset are necessary for the rest of the moves. If you stress that breathing is of paramont importance in SLT, why not take a few deep breaths before worrying about applications?




Nothing is easy, even just to sort out and experience a little this or that is not easy. See the TaiJi people doing Taiji and having all the clasical theories... but how many really can pin point every concept? and walk the talk? Not to mention master the talk. ( Here is not to put down Taiji, but to state a reality that it is not easy without lots of investigation holisticly)

if it is that easy, nobody would bother joining forums like this one and write Megs and Megs of posts ;)

[sel]

yes, i think holistic and wholesome are both great words to describe it. my sifu uses the term holistic too.