advanced SLT form

[mtod1]

Hi all, hope everyone is well.

I'd like to ask those who have learnt the advanced slt form what they think/thought of it. Benefits etc.

Thanks in advance

[Alpha Dog]

It really took my WC up a notch. Perhaps even two.

[yuanfen]

I am saving it- when I master the basic slt---maybe I will be ready for it.

[EnterTheWhip]

Faaaantastic!

[yuanfen]

Faansauistic too!!

[foolinthedeck]

maybe i'm just not initiated to a high enough degree yet but...

advanced slt form? i was under the impression that slt was slt. if changes need to be made why not for beginners, what is added or taken away?

[quiet man]

Yeah, what foolinthedeck said.

[sel]

ye, i'd like to hear more about it too...i thought there was only one sil lim tao form!

[Phil Redmond]

I'm presuming the advanced SLT discussed here is the one in TWC. It is similar to SLT but with some footwork. As far as I know no other lineage does it.
Phil

[sel]

thanks phil.
is the footwork unique to advanced sil lim tao? or is it found in the other forms too?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am not involved in TWC although I did have an opportunity to work with someone who studied this lineage. However, I wanted to note that Sifu Chow has a "Shifting Siu Nim Tau" which is between the regular SNT and the CK forms. This is used to further train onces stance turning and shifting.

Peace,

Dave

[Grabula]

Is mtod1 a trouble maker or something? I only ask because it sounded like he had a sincere question and all he got was ridicule?

[Phil Redmond]

Sel,

The stepping in advanced SLT starts after the double gum saos to either side of the body/double strikes to the rear/the double hand push forward section of SLT.

In TWC that section is used to get out of an arms pinned bear hug. In that section there is a 45 degree step to the rear using a huen guek to step behind your opponents leg. There's more involved and it's probabaly hard to visualize from this written description. I'm re-doing the vids for my site so I'll ad that application.

Sihing73,

It was too bad that we couldn't get together and do more than play phone tag while I was traveling near your area. I was looking forward to meeting with you.
I have some 8mm footage of when William Cheung went to Hong Kong in the late '70's to share with his Wing Chun brothers what Yip Man had taught him. In that footage he only does the 3 empty hand forms, and the wooden dummy form. There was no advanced SLT in that footage. I'll ask him if that is an innovation of his or if he learned that directly from Yip Man, as he is pretty open about sharing what were his innovations and what was not.
Phil

[old jong]

I don't have that form in my Wing Chun so,I do my best to do my SLT in an "advanced" way!...;)

[foolinthedeck]

grabula - i didnt intend any ridicule, apart from the usual foolin.
but when a thread is started on a topic which sounds interesting but i have never heard of before, i reserve the right to ask questions in order to find out more. what i said before - seriously, some sifus do reserve things until they believe their students ready.

Phil redmond - what is Twc? i thought that meant 'traditional', would this imply that without advanced SLT, my wing chun is not traditional?? would it imply that the oldest most traditional ancestors of our modern lineages had it as opposed to it being added later?? - honest questions, no disrespect at all.

[Grabula]

foolinthedeck, your reply seemed sincere, it's the first four replies that bother me. One or two of those guys answer fairly lucidly elsewhere it's just disappointing to see them answering in this manner here. You'd think we would learn to play a little bit more nice.

[Alpha Dog]

Gee that is really a shame!

[old jong]

I think this form is not "traditional" but a pedagogical instrument created by William Cheung.

[yuanfen]

Grabula-
"Advanced" is not a value neutral word. In any case- the intent was and is ---to express the considered opinion that the sil lim tao
is such a condensed form --that one does not need an advanced version- since chum kiu gets one started with moving the structure quite well.
The sil lim tao is so rich that it can even inform biu jee at high levels of wing chun. The intent was to point to the depth of the sil lim tao- not to ridicule the poster.

[foolinthedeck]

oh, i thought the first few replies were sincere - thats why i wanted to know more - especially as yuanfen is so lucid normally.

[anerlich]

I believe Old Jong is probably closest to the truth, though I'd like to hear what GM Cheung has to say on this myself if Victor or Phil are able to find out at some stage.

"Advanced" is arguably a poor choice of qualifier, though it is taught after the "basic" SLT in the TWC curriculum. It uses a larger structure, footwork, and emphasises different concepts. The student will continue to practice both forms as long as he does TWC.

foolinthedeck, the Traditional in TWC is as much a marketing tool of product differentiation that anything else. It's even trademarked, I believe. "Super" or "Extreme" might just as well be used for that purpose.

The TWC propaganda holds that TWC is the "original" method passed down to Leung Jan, who "modified" it to hide the "real" stuff from those outside his family. But few believe that literally, including a significant proportion of TWC practitioners, and it is far from proven historical fact.

[mtod1]

I ask a very simple question and I get a few decent replies, some random opinion and arguments regarding the meaning of a word and the validity of an 'extra form'.

Thanks to those that said something useful. (you know who you are).

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by mtod1
I ask a very simple question and I get a few decent replies, some random opinion and arguments regarding the meaning of a word and the validity of an 'extra form'.

Thanks to those that said something useful. (you know who you are).

Now that you are satisfied, what do you think about advanced SLT? Does it rock your world or what?

[Phil Redmond]

There is WC, VT, WT, and TWC, (Traditional Wing Chun)
TWC is what my Sifu, (William Cheung), calls what he teaches. I personally don't use it to mean someone else's WC, etc. isn't traditional. Without getting into politics I think Anerlich is some what close. And yes, the name is trademarked.
Phil

[EnterTheWhip]

A simple question was asked.. A simple answer was given. I think the advanced SLT is fantastic!

[planetwc]

This is an interesting gem right here!

Phil, has this footage been coverted to vhs or digital (VCD/DVD) format? Is it available for purchase?

Who is William demonstrating his forms to in HK at the time?

Has William thought of putting out a "then and now" dvd/vcd with that footage and say himself doing the forms now in 2003?

It would be interesting to see the refinements and polish of 30 additional years of kung fu!


Originally posted by Phil Redmond

I have some 8mm footage of when William Cheung went to Hong Kong in the late '70's to share with his Wing Chun brothers what Yip Man had taught him. In that footage he only does the 3 empty hand forms, and the wooden dummy form. There was no advanced SLT in that footage.
Phil

[foolinthedeck]

mtod1

Thanks to those that said something useful

this IS an open forum, if you wanted a closed thread that didnt inspire any extra illucidation, well i apologise anyway, but i was hoping that i could benefit from it too, otherwise there would be no point anyone posting responses when all you wanted people to do was email you directly.

i am grateful for the explanation of TWC - which to my mind seemed kind of crucial to understanding what advanced SLT is if you havent come across it before. I'm confused about the fact that 'traditional' is trademarked though. Is this an international trademark or other? and how do you trademark a concept? if its possible i'm off to trademark Tan sau, fuk sau and bong sau, and then you'll all have to pay me if you want to use them!!!

[Sihing73]

Hello Phil,

I also wish that we could have done more than play phone tag. Next time perhaps with some advanced notice we can arrange to meet. I would also like to meet you as well.

It would be interesting to learn the origins of the Advanced SNT. I know that Sifu Chow developed the "Turning/Shifting" SNT after years of thought and discussions with his students. We also do not begin any turning/shifting until after the Gaun Sau movements in the 2nd section. The purpose is not to change the form but to allow the student an opportunity to train the shifting more as well as gain a better understanding of the energy involved with each technique. Of course there are some techniques which would not be done with a turn as well.

Another thing which I like to do from time to time is to link all three forms together into one. This is also an interesting way to practice and can deepen ones understanding of the art.

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

FWIW - In the method I learned, we do 4 basic punches even before we learn SLT. These punches include the straight (KYM) horse, the turning (PM) horse, and the stepping (JM) horse, so students get the basic footwork and learn to coordinate it with the waist and hands from the beginning. This was done, in part and along with some other things, so that in the middle 1900s in Foshan, they could gain fighting skill in a brisk fashion.

So, it seems the idea of earlier (than 3 boxing set provided) introduction of footwork is something many teachers have explored over the years/generations.

[Grabula]

yuanfen, agreed. For myself, I have never seen an "advanced" form of SLT, but that doesn't mean that someone hasn't tried to create one.
mtod1, what lineage or what instructor did you learn this from? What are the differences between "basic" and "advanced" SLT?



Does it rock your world or what?

AH! The tao speaks wisdom! the rock must be a triangle, the world must be the nothingness of wingchun!

[Alpha Dog]

You'd like advanced SLT, Crapula -- it'f full or grappling and sparring with yourself!! Just don't do it too much or you'll go blind!

[Grabula]

teehee, "Crapula" good one.:rolleyes:


Just don't do it too much or you'll go blind!

I "see" the light!! If I "go blind" to WC then it becomes nothing and suddenly I have mastered it!!!

[Alpha Dog]

No, you have mastured WC already.

[anerlich]

and how do you trademark a concept?

You don't. You're marketing a brand name, like Coca-Cola or Microsoft .NET. It's a trademark, not a patent.