tongue

[foolinthedeck]

hi.
will everyone agree that the place for the tongue is touching the top of the mouth just behind the front teeth in order to connect the 'circuit'?

i was wondering about this in a external way too, when taking a punch to the face/jaw. if the teeth are clenched together then there is tension and damage is likely - i test this by tightening my teeth and lightly hitting my own jaw, it doesnt feel good. if the teeth are apart and loose then there is the danger that they will clash together or that the lower jaw bone will move independantly, again by hitting myself it doesnt feel good.

now, if my teeth are slightly apart, but i use the muscle of the tongue to provide a shock absorber between the upper and lower parts of my jaw. testing it here it feels good, also during chi sao i keep my tongue connected and feel as if any hits to the jaw that i suffer are absorbed to a certain degree.

this also stops the tongue from being trapped between the teeth.

of course wu sau etc should be there first, but what are your thoughts on taking a punch/strike to the jaw? i'd be interested in how boxers take one, especially on the street with no gum shields.:p

[stuartm]

Hi FTD,

I always tell my students to keep their mouths shut !! LOL!

Seriously though, I always feel that people talk about boxing too lightly and talk about boxing punches in simplistic terms ! My opinion is that the teeth should be closed together to lock the jaw - if you get hit in the jaw from the side then you are highly likely to suffer a broken jaw. While i have never boxed, I have two close friends who are boxers / trainers active today - and they tell me that this is correct. By keeping the mouth closed you are also working towards correct, regulated breathing.

The traditional boxing guard tends to cover the jaw with the fists either side of the head to cover against the hook. I think the reality of strict Wing Chun training is that during Chi sao , practitioners become so concerned, almost obsessed with centre line attack and defence(you may recall our chi sao session where we actually discussed and agreed on this !), that you rarely see any rounded attacks such as a hook or cross. To me this defeats the whole pupose of your martial art - if a technique works - USE IT !!!

A simple example would be me striking in chi sao and my opponent blocks by using jut sau. If his jut sau presses me accross , I will disengage and throw a tight hook - this is the natural evolution of that particularly energy - so why should i try and create something more complicated and less effective.

I digress, so i will post a thread that i know you will have an opinion on!!

Regards, Stuart

[Mr Punch]

Apart from any internal benefits, placing the tongue at the circuit completion point has two other obvious fighting benefits:

1) It keeps it out of the way.

As you both suggested, the jaw being firmly closed is very important to avoid getting it broken (from the side or the front), but as people often forget this when they've been clocked a few times, you should try to remember to keep your tongue up to prevent yourself from biting it.

I should follow this advice!:D Otherwise it hurts!

2) It makes breathing easier.

Try it. If you don't go too far back, as some of the really advanced taichiers recommend (which in my opinion leaves you a little vulnerable to 'swallowing your tongue' but that may be because I never got to much past a beginner at taichi...), or too far forward (which will often lead to the problem above), but put the tip just behind the shelf of the gum, and the body over the bulge in the roof of the mouth (stop me if this getting too technical!:D ), it somehow clears the passage when you are breathing through your nose (don't know the physiological reasons: just try it and see) or mouth, and prevents you from choking on your own saliva when breathing through the mouth.

Incidentally, I prefer breathing through the mouth since the third and fourth times I had my nose broken. YMMV!

[Mr Punch]

Forgot to agree with you Fool!

Jaw firmly closed is different to tightly clenched! So I agree, in my experience it should closed but with a little give, and the best way to do this is with the tongue in the position described.

[Phenix]

place the tonque up there one can breath down to the abdoment instead of stuck in chest breathing.

More energy MOre oxigen... why not?

Try it if your tounge is not up there how deep can you breath?

[yuanfen]

Position of tongue? IMO- depends on what you are doing.
For some chi gung or pranayama- you have it high up on the upper palate. In a fight without a mouthpiece you have it at the
beginning of the gum line behind your top front teeth.
Also- Ali got his jaw broken by Ken Norton in their first fight if memory serves, when Ali had his mouth open and Norton left hooked him.

[foolinthedeck]

thanks for the replies.

stuart - i was more interested in your thoughts on the tongue than on the teeth although there is some overlap.

i'm interested in the different tongue placements too, i always thought it was tip to just behind back teeth, not whole tongue against top... or tip against palate a few inches back... i'll ask the internal guys about that.. i still need to find out where the ren meridian is anyway...

[anerlich]

the ren meridian is anyway...

Next to the stimpy meridian perhaps? :D

Definitely need to keep your mouth closed and chin down. I'd be more worried about that than the precise placement of my tongue.

Too may Wing Chun guys stick their chin out while they're flailing away chasing the opp's hands. Great way to get hooked right on the button.

I can't comfortably put my tongue on the back of my teeth anyway. It tends to sit most naturally on the palate ridge behind the teeth.

Tongue on the roof of the mouth during meditation and breath drills also helps the production of saliva which aids digestion and stops your mouth getting dry.