Obsession with Centreline !!!

[stuartm]

Hi all,

OK - here goes with what could be a controversial one.

Are WC practitioners overly obsessed with centreline ??

Through my experience of studying / teaching WC - i have found that many become blinkered in their training due to their continued obsessional adherence to a set of rigid principles.

Before i go on - I am not saying here that i disagree with the fundamental principles of centreline theory - just that it should not limit you in your training.

Lets look at Poon Sau - when you teach a beginner you stress the hands remaining on the centre, forward energy feeding into the opponents centre, lat sao jik kuen etc etc.... But at advanced levels, i feel you also need to train via a 'bigger circle ' if you like, and with different energies.

Chi Sao has limitations - most notably that you are starting from a point of contact, the real skill in a fighting situation is making that contact using correct angles and structure, and then applying your skills learnt through Chi Sao.

The other issue is that in Chi Sao, many pratitioners will be preconditioned to solely attack / defend on each others centre.

What happens when an opponent becomes more rounded, and opens you up off your centre?? A classic example, and on which is regularly discussed on WC forums, is dealing with boxers. Boxers are very fluid and will bob and will hit from many angles.

The easy answer that wing chun people give is that you simply go forward. You are fooling yourself if you think this is the only answer. What happens when you lose your cente and you hands are not on the centreline. Again the easy answer is to say 'use biu jee etc ' but things are not that simple.

To get back to the point - my humble opinion is that at an advanced level your chi sao needs to take into account a variety of situations (obviously !) and you need to test against other styles to see where your weaknesses lie. Too many people rely on simplistic assumptions which will be exploded if you do not train with a open mind.

No martial art is perfect - you have to take it apart and examine it - and then make it your own. Let me be clear that i am not suggesting the adulteration of 'classical' Wing Chun or any new JKD style - I am merely suggesting an open mind and a flexible interpretation of your art. Test your principles and interpret them !

Before people agree / disagree - I would stress that i am an active instructor who teaches to a traditional syllabus, and with a an establised Yip Man Wing Chun lineage.


Regards, Stuart

[sel]

as i understand it the centre line can change depending on your positioning. it is from your centre to your opponents centre, whether you are sideways to them or front on you can still utilise it in defense/attack.

[Mr Punch]

I agree.
A lot of people I've met in WC are obsessed with a centreline theory that advocates that everything must describe a straight and true path up your own centre. This makes you fight like an idiot (oops, should I say IMHO before that!?:D).

Centreline theory should be as much about staying on, occupying and destroying your opponent's centreline.

1) A good hook will reach the centre, often describing a path of least resistance I want to achieve when hitting effortlessly with wing chun.

2) eg, a sidestepping biu jee to the inside of an incoming hook, then riding the inside to use the hook's own power to hit the bottom of the jaw looks very much like a circular off-centre 'hook' itself. It's still wing chun to me.



The other issue is that in Chi Sao, many pratitioners will be preconditioned to solely attack / defend on each others centre.The centre is vulnerable from all angles. The problem you are referring to, I think, is more that a lot of people forget the centreline is only open to attack from the plumb centre at the front.


What happens when an opponent becomes more rounded, and opens you up off your centre?? A classic example, and on which is regularly discussed on WC forums, is dealing with boxers. Boxers are very fluid and will bob and will hit from many angles.This is often discussed by people who've never sparred/fought boxers. I don't think it has much to do with your initial thread subject. The bobbing shouldn't be a problem: it doesn't change the location of their centreline! The hitting from many angles shouldn't be a problem: I would hope all WCers are doing that... WC power generation is very well-suited to it! The main problem is that they move very quickly on their feet and practise hitting with full power on a heavy mass (the heavy bag) which most WCers don't seem to.
Different thread!


Before people agree / disagree - I would stress that i am an active instructor who teaches to a traditional syllabus, and with a an establised Yip Man Wing Chun lineage.We know Stuart! Splendid! Good luck! Keep up the good work!

Me, I practise WC. And a few other things. I may be good. I may not.

Edited to say "I agree"!

[Fresh]

Originally posted by stuartm
Before people agree / disagree - I would stress that i am an active instructor who teaches to a traditional syllabus, and with a an establised Yip Man Wing Chun lineage.

Well excuse the rest of us and thanks for putting everyone in there place before looking like fools by responding! Maybe you didn't mean it that way but is sure makes your quetion look less than sincere.

[stuartm]

Hi Fresh,

Oops ! I certainly didnt mean to annoy anyone - i put the last bit in just to emphasize that i teach 'trad' WC and wasnt suggesting Wing Chun should be adulterated or changed , just that i thought it needs to be constantly interpreted.

Neither was i suggesting that my opinion was correct. I normally put an a IMHO at the end, and the same applies to this. Just thought it would be an interesting thread .......

Sorry dude !!

Regards, Stuart ;)

[stuartm]

Hi Fresh,

Oops ! I certainly didnt mean to annoy anyone - i put the last bit in just to emphasize that i teach 'trad' WC and wasnt suggesting Wing Chun should be adulterated or changed , just that i thought it needs to be constantly interpreted.


Neither was i suggesting that my opinion was correct. I normally put an a IMHO at the end, and the same applies to this. Just thought it would be an interesting thread .......

Sorry dude !!

Regards, Stuart ;)

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by stuartm
Are WC practitioners overly obsessed with centreline ?? Yes, yes, yes. So much so that the movements become limited and restrictive.

I think the real problem lies in the need to expand the understanding of the centreline. I don't mean "adapt" or "adjust", because the centreline doesn't change, but to broaden the scope in which the centreline applies. With this in mind, then "yes yes yes" to putting more focus on understanding the centreline in a larger scope. (A contraditon to my earlier "yes yes yes")

[yuanfen]

Obsession? tricky word. Learning and internalizing is better than
obsession!
To my mind there is considerable misunderstanding on what
one means by the centerline among wc groups. then you have the TWC language which makes distinctions with the term central line.
I discussed these distinctions some years ago in a JAMA article entitled "Defending the Motherline". My site(www.azwingchun.com> will be undergoing changes in a month or two but the JAMA piece is still up in the article section. When you defend the motherline and have that orientation down pat-
it doesnt matter whether its a straight attack coming down nose to nose straight down the centerline or whether its a hook etc
attacking from a wider angle.
A suggestion- look at the mok jong carefully (not the jkd jong)--
the motherline is there in the trunk, and there are horizontal lines
at the arm and leg levels- and their intersections. Good jong training- there is gold there- teaches both circular and straight line attacks and defenses.

[Grabula]

shortest distance between two points is a line. Wing Chun is about efficiency.

[KPM]

The quote attributed to Wong Shun Leung comes to mind. Paraphrasing a bit:

"You should be the master of WCK, not its slave!"

Keith

[yuanfen]

shortest distance between two points is a line. Wing Chun is about efficiency
-----------------------------------------------
Sure wing chun is about efficiency- and the shortest distance between two points is a line- if it is open-
wing chun geometry is rich-...there are circles too in wing chun.

[PaulH]

That is one of my favorite quote of WSL too! It speaks to each individual differently. Always ever be wary of the use of power. True power does not enslave but serve. It's a subtle trap when one relies too much on any good things when there is a better or easier way to approach the problem.

Regards,

[kj]

Originally posted by KPM
"You should be the master of WCK, not its slave!"

I hold the late Wong Shun Leung and his work in highest esteem, and I like this quote.

I don't for a moment presume that WSL meant to imply that anything and everything we may choose or fancy to employ necessarily qualifies as WCK.

Out of context, interpretations can all too easily serve as arguments for things unintended. As always, just on the look out for slippery slopes, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[PaulH]

Point well taken, Kathy! I would like to provide this humorous story of one of Wong's beimos for the sheer illusion of the slippery context. In this particular fight, the rule was no kicking. During the bout, Wong forgot and was about to kick his opponent's knee. The opponent saw it so he pulled his leg back. Wong then stepped his foot down and punched the guy instead winning the fight. When the loser complained of Wong's trickery, Wong just smiled and said something like "no this is one of WC special punching technique" The point? You're the man. Do whatever you want to get the job done quick. As one of my brother eloquently put it when I ask what is his Kung Fu's name, he said: "Getting Home in One Piece" Do. No comment from me. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[foolinthedeck]

Hmmm. i'm not sure about this.
i think its all down to the individual... certainly we can obsess about the centreline, i know that in chi sau i can just slowly raise a hand sideways and alot of good people will follow it - not because they are obsessed with the centre but because they are obsessed with... hand following i guess...

people who dont follow the hands can be considered better because they come to the centre and destroy me if i try this... to my memory i dont think stuart did this but i'm a forgetful fool;)

i dont think that my chi sau is limited, because i'll try anything and deal with anything in some way... but its still necessary to follow the centres and angles or it ceases to be wing chun.
so lets open our minds but not let our brains fall out..

regarding boxers, its not worth worring about, cover this and you miss bagua, xing yi, systema, aikido etc etc... you cant cover every possible attack against you, best to just perfect your wing chun and stay open to new ideas...
hm...

[Grabula]

let's not forget spirals....

[yuanfen]

good points- foolingthe deck.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Grabula
shortest distance between two points is a line. Wing Chun is about efficiency. How exactly does that relate to centerline principle?

[Alpha Dog]

Who's obsessed with center line? Which one?

[Grabula]

How exactly does that relate to centerline principle?

without getting into balance and structure, the two points reference should be fairly obvious, otherwise practice the first subset of SLT and you should get a pretty good idea.


TOAD - "There is no centerline."

TOAD - "You do not strike, the Centerline strikes!"

[Alpha Dog]

Can you grapple the centerline? How about spar with it?

[stuartm]

This has been a good thread - whatever our opinions !!;)

[Grabula]

Can you grapple the centerline? How about spar with it?


Haven't got that far in the TOAD, my guess is "there is no grappling"

[Alpha Dog]

Wrong again! At least you are consistent.

[Grabula]

chortling buddha grabs his belly!!!

[Alpha Dog]

:o YAWN!

[Grabula]

ooooh! lost your center line! :p

[Alpha Dog]

Which one?

[Grabula]

the most important one!!

[Alpha Dog]

You mean the one you're obsessed with (the one that emerges when your plumber bends over)?

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Can you grapple the centerline? How about spar with it?

Self-love *is* the purest kind!

:)