Enter with Discretion: Another Bruce Lee Topic!

[StickyHands]

Did anyone ever wonder what or why did Bruce Lee felt like he needed modify Wing Chun into JKD? I wonder, what was so lacking in Wing Chun (besides Chin Na and boxing footwork) that needed a big improvement? Just because he lost some fights? And when he concocted the JKD philosophy, suddenly it was the opposite? I just think it's because he trained harder. And even refining Wing Chun into JKD, I always found his methods of fighting almost similar, except the inclusion of footwork. So what was so terribe about Wing Chun that drove this remarkable man insane? lol. Thanks.

[greendragon]

#1 pre determined responses. #2 lack of fluid motion.
just guessing

[KC Elbows]

You have to understand, Bruce Lee was practicing Wing Chun before they improved the spelling and found all that traditional ground fighting in it. You would have left too.

Also, since Bruce didn't have someone the callibre of an Emin Bozteppe or William Chung in the US to practice with, he had to go out and actually fight other stylists(non-wing chun- imagine!), which was clearly dissappointing, as that's clearly not what wing chun's about, no matter how you spell it.

Mind you, his behavior was deplorable, not dignified at all times like the grandmasters of today. Thankfully, with his death, wing chun teachers were finally able to get out from under that shadow of his that kept people out of wing chun schools due to his terrible martial arts and bad conduct, and really begin to show wing chun as not only a semantical art, but a great opportunity for a spectacle in both the US and Germany.

[rubthebuddha]

kc -- you smartass. :p it's only funny cause it's true.

on the other hand, things such as footwork and chin na are plentiful in wing chun. bruce wasn't a student of wing chun for very long and, thus, came nowhere near completing the system. if there was one thing he should have criticized wing chun for not teaching him, it would have been to stay out of trouble so he could remain in hong kong to complete his training.

bruce lee was good and fast at what he did because he did train hard -- very hard. however, to criticize something as lacking when you haven't seen it all is presumptive at best.

[Knifefighter]

BL felt that WC was lacking in finishing power due to its lack of full body rotation when delivering strikes. One of the things he incorporated into his fighting was the power that comes with the rotational biomechanics of western boxing and Muay Thai. He also felt that boxing slips, bobs and weaves were a superior method for avoiding punches and utilizing feinting and other set-ups.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by KC Elbows

Mind you, his behavior was deplorable, not dignified at all times like the grandmasters of today. Thankfully, with his death, wing chun teachers were finally able to get out from under that shadow of his that kept people out of wing chun schools due to his terrible martial arts and bad conduct, and really begin to show wing chun as not only a semantical art, but a great opportunity for a spectacle in both the US and Germany.

That's kinda cynnical, his death contributed to a great cause? I dont think he was only saying inefficiency just in Wing Chun, but also other systems as well, that's why he wanted to amalgam as much as possible. Like he said, it's form of fighting of no forms. My question was just to know why he was unfullfilled, but I guess that about answers it. But he did know what he was talking about concerning Wing Chun's good methods of fighting. But as a process, nonentheless, he accidentally not only popularized kung fu, but other MAs as well. And at least his theory of JKD worked for him very well anyway.

But on a further note, there are some contradictions among the responses here :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
You have to understand, Bruce Lee was practicing Wing Chun before they improved the spelling and found all that traditional ground fighting in it. You would have left too.

Also, since Bruce didn't have someone the callibre of an Emin Bozteppe or William Chung in the US to practice with, he had to go out and actually fight other stylists(non-wing chun- imagine!), which was clearly dissappointing, as that's clearly not what wing chun's about, no matter how you spell it.

Mind you, his behavior was deplorable, not dignified at all times like the grandmasters of today. Thankfully, with his death, wing chun teachers were finally able to get out from under that shadow of his that kept people out of wing chun schools due to his terrible martial arts and bad conduct, and really begin to show wing chun as not only a semantical art, but a great opportunity for a spectacle in both the US and Germany.

Bloody beautiful.

I nominate this for Post Of The Year thus far.

:D

[StickyHands]

Geee everyone here hates Bruce Lee, -_- pathetic really. He's a man who was no more perfect than anyone else. But at least he was striving for something, I'd nominate his ego.

[Serpent]

Get over your obsession.

[Chinwoo-er]

You know, I have due feelings for Burce.
To this very day, I think that what he did for martial arts within martial arts is bad. Yet what he did in the films were good. Confused ? Yeah. But too.

What I mean is that the fact that he was able to popularise CMA to the western world was a great contribution to chinese culture everywhere. And the idea that non-chinese people keeps getting kicked was a much needed ego-booster for the then-depressed chinese people. There, I believe that Bruce did something profound and worth calling a hero. Did he over-do the anti-foreign message a little ? I'd say so. But hey, those were different times. And people flocked to the cinemas for his whole package. So as far as the actual people who invested in the films are concerned, who cares ?

However, the fact that Bruce didn't study the arts much and then thought up alot of the JKD principle and philosophy and then claim it as his own creation was something that rubbed me. If we read up on some of the books that were published in the 40s to 60s, and some of the "principle poems" from the old times, we will find that we will find that there really isn't much that is original in Bruce Lee's work. Note, I am not saying that Bruce didn't come up with them by himself. I believe that he did indeed discovered them independently. And true, what he wrote did carry a very strong western philosophical flavour in his style of writting and the linkage between premises that makes it very different on terms of structuring the statement, but the fact that he never went back and read up on the past knowledge and then selling it as his own work makes the world see those principles as being Bruce's own and no one else's. Besides, I think that looking from a philosophical point of view, he has alot of things that contradicts himself.
Alot of the masters from the last generations in Hong Kong hated Bruce because of this. Yet, here is where the pethetic part comes in, in order to gain fame for their own school, half of them came up with all sorts of lies to associate themselves with him. Such as pointing out some of the techniques Bruce "learnt from them" and saying how much of a pals them were. I find it kinda comforting that this rave died down for the past decade or two.

[azwingchun]

bruce lee was good and fast at what he did because he did train hard -- very hard. however, to criticize something as lacking when you haven't seen it all is presumptive at best.

Agree 100%!

greendragon states:

#1 pre determined responses

Not sure what style of Wing Chun you are speaking about, non that I am aware of. Just my opinion, that is the beauty of Wing Chun.....the lack of pre-determined responses. ;)

[azwingchun]

#2 lack of fluid motion.

Again, not sure what Wing Chun system you are speaking about. Wing Chun as I know it is as fluid, if not more fluid than any other art I have seen or studied. Again, just my two cents. ;)

[quiet man]

I completely agree with RTB and azwingchun:
1. When you haven't seen everything, it is perfectly normal to feel like something is missing. Wing Chun IS a complete fighting system, you just have to learn all of it ;).
2. Fluid motions and lack of pre-determined responses are just two of Wing Chun's many beautiful characteristics. (Now, before someone shoots me repeatedly in the head :D, I'm not saying this is limited exclusively to WC).

Hopefully this is the last we'll see of this subject, but I think a see a young martial artist wannabe somewhere in the near future thinking of this same question :D ...

[bob10]

I find it ironic that Bruce Lee is held up as a saviour of Chinese martial arts when he modified the traditional styles he had learnt by adding in elements of Western fencing, boxing and wrestling.

Mybe he modified his WC because he had trouble making it work aginst Western fighters?

Of course I doubt he learnt the whole "complete" system, but people who lose fights using these arts never have, have they?
;)

[Repulsive Monkey]

someone said earlier that they thoght the reason he did it was because there was something lacking in Wing Chun, me myself, I feel Bruce Lee modified it because there was something lacking in himself.
I have always considered his phrase of "classical mess" as being one bourne out of ignorance more than enlightenment. Sure I suspect there isn't a single perfect art around but considering the small amount of time he spent with Yip Man, I think Bruce was a little overblown to make such a statement. Although many have benefitted from what Bruce has introduced the world to, I don't rate it as mind blowing or that original. Maybe his role was more of a cultural interpreter of principles and ideas within the world of martial arts to the western world. I have never felt he was some grand innovator, and I believe if he didn't create JKD, someone else would of, or more clser to the truth already had under a different name and guise.

[bob10]

Did Yip Man teach groundfighting? ;)

[Ford Prefect]

Wing Chun and all kung fu styles are totally complete. Bruce Lee was a no talent hack. All you need is kung fu. Don't worry about testing it in a realitsic manner against other styles and combat sports. It'd be too deadly or there'd be too many rules for that anyway.

[dwid]

RM:
I have always considered his phrase of "classical mess" as being one bourne out of ignorance more than enlightenment.

How long does it take to figure out something is not the most efficient/effective way? Do you need to try to hammer a square peg into a round whole for several hours before concluding that there is something inherently wrong with the materials?

I'm not one to elevate Lee to god-like status or anything like that, but I do think it's illogical to claim that someone has to complete a system to justify criticizing it for its faults.

If you walk into a school that only practices point sparring, for example, because the techniques are "too deadly to execute at full speed," then it would be fair to criticize this without first earning your black belt or whatever at that school.

I think "classical mess" is a good descriptor of many of the arts that have gotten fatter and fatter over time by lazily adding more forms instead of more depth.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by quiet man

1. When you haven't seen everything, it is perfectly normal to feel like something is missing. Wing Chun IS a complete fighting system, you just have to learn all of it ;).

...and how do you know WC is a complete system? How long have you trained WC? Have you seen it all?

[Watchman]

KC Elbows,

I printed your post out and hung it over my desk. Beautiful!

[Black Jack]

Complete system?

Yip Man taught firearm skills?

What about OC Spray?

Tactical Flashlight?

Kama Sutra?

[DragonzRage]

Emin Boztepe's fight with Grandmaster William Cheung did just as much, if not more, to discredit the effectiveness of Wing Chun as anything Bruce Lee said.

[Ford Prefect]

BURN!


Watch you mouth call kung fu "masters" bad fighters.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
Emin Boztepe's fight with Grandmaster William Cheung did just as much, if not more, to discredit the effectiveness of Wing Chun as anything Bruce Lee said.
aye. i'm not sure if i saw anything resembling wing chun in that video. but that's not the worst of it. the nature and politics of the fight itself did little to impress anyone -- from either camp, or anyone else, for that matter. the wing chun world would be better off had it not happened at all.

[rogue]

Whoops, I thought I clicked the link for the Kung Fu Forum. Must have hit the Wing Chun one by accident.

Carry on..

[rubthebuddha]

there's so much goodness on the wc forum, we spill over. :D

[red5angel]

he needed to modify wing chun from vanity and ego. he couldn't learn the whole system from the people he wanted to and he got his arse kicked by someone he thought he should have beat. These two things more then anything else imho led to Bruce developing his own art. I think he was a natural and so it worked for him, it doesn't work for most people though.

[rubthebuddha]

holy crap -- he's back! serpent and sevenstar, grab your ankles, cause your post counts are about to get shot down!

[red5angel]

hehe, actualy they are keeping me pretty busy here at work so your post counts should remain solidly in place, atleast for a while.

[rubthebuddha]

fair enough, buddy. that'll give 7* and serpie a chance to stretch first.

[red5angel]

right, then I am all over them like a rat on a cheeto!!!!

[straight blast]

#1 pre determined responses. #2 lack of fluid motion.

What Wing Chun have you been looking at????

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[red5angel]

uh oh, someone had to bring in the whole wingchun thing....can't we keep that crap over in the wingchun forum?! Let those retards fight about it.

[rogue]

Bruce Lee vs Emin, who'd win and which one made the logical changes to Wing Chun that it obviously need?:confused:

[joedoe]

Royce would choke them both out.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by red5angel
right, then I am all over them like a rat on a cheeto!!!!

This cheeto was born ready, rat boy. Bring it on!


Welcome back, btw.

:)

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by red5angel
uh oh, someone had to bring in the whole wingchun thing....can't we keep that crap over in the wingchun forum?! Let those retards fight about it.

pot.
kettle.
black.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Serpent
Get over your obsession.

How is what I said obsession? Stop being jealous just cuz ur not the half the fighter he was. j/k. Get over your hatred! lol. Seems like I opened up a can of worms by this thread.

[Serpent]

Indeed you did.

Bruce was never going to live up to his hype. It would be really interesting, had he lived, to see where he would be at today.

[quiet man]

Originally posted by Knifefighter


...and how do you know WC is a complete system? How long have you trained WC? Have you seen it all?

Well, I could play the smarta$$ game now and ask you: how do YOU know that Wing Chun ISN'T a complete system? How long have YOU trained WC? Have YOU seen it all?, but unfortunately I graduated from highschool years ago. ;)

Instead, I'll play straight with you: no, I haven't seen it all (only 5 years in training so far). And no, I don't KNOW Wing Chun is a complete system - I BELIEVE it is. I base that belief mostly (mostly) on my sifu's fight record: in these five years I've SEEN people from karate, other WC schools, ninjutsu, judo, aikido, boxing, tai chi and other styles coming into my kwoon and getting kicked all over the place by my sifu, who in turn never even broke a sweat. And I KNOW my sifu knows WC because he learned it from sigung WSL in person.

WC in not a complete system because it incorporates all methods of fighting (no style is complete like that), it is complete because it needs nothing more. I may not be able to grapple with you (or I just might, using the same principles as always), but if I know my WC, you'll never get me on the ground.

Needless to say, this is just my HO and I'm entitled to it, just as you are entitled to yours, so there's no need to bash one another over this ;). And I doubt we'll ever get a chance to see who's right...

[red5angel]

thanks serpent, nice to be back

Rub - at one time yes, no longer.

[rubthebuddha]

empathy, red5, empathy. :p

[red5angel]

At one time I was the mouthpiece for an individual who is a little backwards, no more. However, I still have yet to meet a wingchun guy I think can take me ;)

[rogue]

What caused your epiphany?

[red5angel]

rogue, my answer to that can basically be seen in your thread on cults of personality. I enjoy wing chun and have a lot of respect for it, still practice it. However the politics, the internet tough guys ad sifu have turned me off to discussing it in "public". As for dumping my old instructor, well, I believe that as a teacher, in a position of authority and leadership, you should be honest at all times. Someone once told me that learning from a person who is dishonest is not worth it. It isn't.

[Shaolin-Do]

Im yet to meet any non instructor who can hand me my azz hands down.
:)
Even still, Im sure I can handle more than a few instructors... Jesus that sounds arrogant.

:eek:
:cool:

[red5angel]

I met one, but other aspects of that turned me away, otherwise I have not been impressed. Although I am sure they would be willing to cite you a list of good excuses. My favorite is always the deflection "What is good wingchun?" Or how about the classic "I study wingchun so I don't have to fight.".

[greendragon]

I am back to respond to the flames from my comments about "pre determined response and lack of fluidity" in WC. I did not mean to disrespect the style, these are just observations from the outside (one who has not studied it). When i see WC stylists fight it looks like they root into place and don't move much, using traps and gates and a lot of those weak straight arm punches. I would love to see some good pure WC fighting demonstrated if someone has a link. Maybe I will take some classes in it if it looks workable. I love the idea that it was invented by a female, i like those.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by quiet man
I may not be able to grapple with you (or I just might, using the same principles as always), but if I know my WC, you'll never get me on the ground.


What is it about WC that makes you think you are immune to being taken down?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by greendragon
I love the idea that it was invented by a female, i like those.

This is clearly the best line of the thread.

[rogue]

"What is it about WC that makes you think you are immune to being taken down?", said Knifefighter with a trembling voice. "My lord", he thought, "what if all that BJJ and stickfighting I've blindly put my trust in can be so easily countered?":(

[rubthebuddha]

it's ok rogue. all you gotta do is master that 11th-story flying sidekick to surprise us wing chun people. we fall for that **** every time. :o

[Serpent]

Originally posted by rogue
"What is it about WC that makes you think you are immune to being taken down?", said Knifefighter with a trembling voice. "My lord", he thought, "what if all that BJJ and stickfighting I've blindly put my trust in can be so easily countered?":(

Hahaha! Now KnifeFighter begins to see the true prowess of TMA!

[Serpent]

On a more serious note, why is it that BJJ-types can't accept the fact that TMA's have developed counters and techniques to deal with takedowns? Do they really think that nobody ever took anyone down before Royce Gracie? It's quite funny really.

Caveat - Wing Chun people that claim things like, "If I really know my Wing Chun they won't be able to take me down" are certainly deluded, at least in part. However, there should be many contingencies to prevent a takedown AND to deal with one if you don't prevent it. Trouble is, so many schools these days are run by half-arsed teachers with a couple of years of basics training...

Check out the William Cheung/Emin Boztepe fight to see WC masters dealing with groundfighting! :rolleyes: :D

[rubthebuddha]

deluded is right. if my counters and responses to a takedown are just as good as someone's takedowns, i'll win.

however, if they gots mad skills and my responses are just plain good, you know it'll be my ass that's tapping out.

[Ryu]

*Ryu trying to keep Bruce on the phone*

Ryu: No no, wait, Bruce, it's really serious this time!

Bruce: Forget it, I don't want to talk to you anymore, Ryu!

Ryu: Yeah I know, but but but, the thing! The Wing Chun thing! Did Yip Man teach you groundfighting? Did you know JKD is just true Wing Chun philosophy??

Bruce: I'm hanging up now. Thanks for calling, bye.

Ryu: No wait! Okay it's important this time, just answer one more...

Bruce: No. Get a life.

Ryu: Wait, uh...I can speak Chinese! :p Um...uh.. Ni hao! Wo shi Ryu...uh no wait, that's Mandarin... okay, wait, Waaiiiiittt!!!!

Bruce: *click*

Ryu: Hello?? :( Helloo??? Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuceeeeeee!!!!



:mad: Well thanks a lot guys. Now Bruce won't return my calls.

******* forumites...

Ryu

[quiet man]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
deluded is right. if my counters and responses to a takedown are just as good as someone's takedowns, i'll win.

however, if they gots mad skills and my responses are just plain good, you know it'll be my ass that's tapping out.

Ah-hah!
Aren't we talking about LEVEL OF SKILL then, and not the skill itself? <said he with a self-righteous grin :D ;)>

In response to Knifefighter (and partially to Serpent, who is right in other part of his post): yes, WC has counters for takedowns. In order to grab me, you must move towards me, you must touch me, and I have two hands and two legs with which to intercept you. But I guess seeing is believing.

And no, I don't consider myself to be deluded (Ah-hah! That's the first sign of dellusion! :D ;)), I consider myself to be enlightened, for I have seen true Wing Chun. And with all due respect, no flaming intended, I don't think you have. Maybe we all should refrain from commenting things we're not familiar with.

In conclusion: feel free to believe what you will and let me do the same, and we'll both be happier. Live and let live, that's my philosophy when it comes to MA.



LOL Ryu! :D

[bob10]

You may have "counters" to someone trying to take you down, and yes someone has to come within range to touch you. But if he is in range then so are you. If a guy is skilled in takedowns it's not as easy as "oh I'll just intercept him".

And how about if you slip and fall? Or someone grabs from behind? Or any one of a hundred other scenarios?

[quiet man]

bob10, it works both ways: if I'm skilled in interception, it's not as easy as "oh I'll just take him down".

Like I said, you have to see it in order to believe it. Talk is cheap and fruitless. You want me to prove you something, and I can't do that via Internet. I can't prove WC is effective if we don't touch hands. I can't EXPLAIN Wing Chun to you, I have to SHOW it to you. Period. Goes for all martial arts and all martial artists.

[bob10]

But what makes you so different from any of the other wing chun people I've met or trained with?

[quiet man]

Maybe nothing. Maybe everything. I don't know anything about WC people you've met or trained with.

Once again, touching hands is the only answer. So, if you should ever come to Croatia, feel free to look me up, and I'll take you to my kwoon. That's the only way we'll ever know.

[rogue]

On a more serious note, why is it that BJJ-types can't accept the fact that TMA's have developed counters and techniques to deal with takedowns? Do they really think that nobody ever took anyone down before Royce Gracie? It's quite funny really. Serpent I don't think anybody is saying that TMA never developed counters for takedowns, it's just they never seemed to have developed counters to the level of grapplers abilities of today. Even TKD has usable groundfighting but it's nowhere near the effectiveness of what BJJ contains. But then Royce can't to a 720 spin kick.



Sorry about that Ryu, but if you get in touch with him again ask him if he was a better director than John Woo and Ang Lee. Thanks.

[red5angel]

Quietman, I don't think anyone is saying wingchun can't handle it's own. The problem is that many WC people claim to not need any sort of training to understand groundfighting, that when push comes to shove they will know what to do wink wink nudge nudge. There are some lines and schools out there who mix it in a little and many who don't.
Ultimately it is about level of skill and understanding. Some people feel that the understanding of how to do one art, allows you to negate any other art or technique you encounter. I have to say that most of the WC people I have met would be next to useless on the ground. Many people make fun of the Cheung/Boztepe fight, and whil eI don't agree with the way Bobo handled that whole thing, it showed what someone with a little ground fighting knowledge could do to someone who apparently didn't. Of ocurse ask a wingchun guy and all you get is mumbling about slippery shoes, ambushes and young vs old.:rolleyes: apparently wing chun only works if everything comes together perfectly.:rolleyes:

Rogue, of course TKD or wingchun doesn't have anywhere near the effective ground fighting ability as bjj, bjj is a ground fighting art. What I believe it comes down to, and this has been my experience in open ring fighting the last few months, isthe skill level of those involved and who can make who play in their territory. A good wingchun guy could keep a not so good bjj guy, and sometimes even a good bjj guy from taking him to the ground, and vice versa.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Serpent
On a more serious note, why is it that BJJ-types can't accept the fact that TMA's have developed counters and techniques to deal with takedowns? Do they really think that nobody ever took anyone down before Royce Gracie? It's quite funny really.

Nobody has a problem with that. What we find ludicrous is the statement that a CMA practitioner cannot be taken down. World class wrestlers who have practiced defending takedowns for hours a day for years still get taken down.

[rubthebuddha]

but CMA folk practice their take down defenses maybe for half an hour once a month and call it good ...

YES, it is all about skill. that, and will. how many peeps has royce tied up or choked out -- not because he was bigger or stronger or his art was better -- but instead because the bugger has skills oozing out of him?

by the flip side, how many people has tank abbott rolled over simply because he wanted to win more than they did (that, and his head is made of cast iron)?

same as some grapplers think that CMA never trains against takedoes, for some odd reason, more than a few CMA folk seem to think that grapplers never considered the fact that people may hit them on their way in.

[StickyHands]

interesting....

verdict #1: Wing Chun is a proficient and complete MA

verdict #2: Wing Chun is not so complete, hehe.

verdict #3: Says Bruce Lee: "Eh.... why are we talking about BJJ now... wait, i must incorporate it to Jeet Kunde Do, I'll call it the way of the intercepting Royce! "

verdict #4: You guys gotta be kidding me.... you cant even agree on simplistic Wing Chun, think how Bruce Lee felt. lol.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
BL felt that WC was lacking in finishing power due to its lack of full body rotation when delivering strikes. One of the things he incorporated into his fighting was the power that comes with the rotational biomechanics of western boxing and Muay Thai. He also felt that boxing slips, bobs and weaves were a superior method for avoiding punches and utilizing feinting and other set-ups.


Did Bruce felt he was lacking in finishing power from Wing Chun, or did really Wing Chun as a system had a lack of full body rotation power?