How has the internet effected the martial arts?

[David Jamieson]

Anybody have any notaions to mention?

Does anyone feel it has changed the perceptions of the martial arts as a whole?

I mean, obviously there are a lot of new perspectives as well as misconceptions. But is the spread of information that abounds about the different aspects of Kungfu training and the cultural trappings that surround it reaching a critical mass through this medium?

It doesn't change the hard work that is required to get any good at it, that's for sure, but for me it has changed a lot of perspectives that I myself had held about different martial arts.

It's also served to demystify a lot of things about martial arts training and what's required to fulfill a training path towards a specific goal and towards a more holistic approach to living with martial arts practice as a part of everyday living.

anyway, looking for different views.

cheers

[PHILBERT]

I think the internet has definately changed the way we view martial arts. Now if you want to know if a school is legit because you want to train, just post it on a MA forum.

Want to know the background and fighting cocepts of Hung Gar before you visit the school? Look it up.

Want to see videos of the style in action? Look it up.

Want to see photos? Look it up.

Its all there. It has made finding a school that is legit that much easier if you take the time to look rather than just run in and take there word for it (Temple Kung Fu, Chung Moo Quan, etc)

[Starchaser107]

From a more "Insular" view point:D , I think the net has really provided more advantages and pros than there are cons. Before the net existed (and to some extent before cable became so widespread , but thats another arguement altogether), there wasnt that much information readily available at your fingertips about Kung Fu , or any of the Martial Arts. The only information you had was through interaction with whatever and whomever was available in your proximity. Theres no telling wether what you got was truth or doctored or whatever. Not that there isnt fraud online because theres plenty, but there are also alot of avenues available to research and judge for yourself , providing you have the time and are willing.
While Charlatans still abound and pervade the net circuit , there are places like THIS(big up to kungfuonline) where one can go and challenge , criticize and get, lets say, a more informed opinion/s pertaining to whatever is in question. In most cases that is.
The net is helpful for lots of martial artists who travel and want to make contacts with people who do the same thing as they do or have similar interests. Not too long ago it was the Yellow Pages for that, (Does anyone still use that to the same degree anymore?)
As for perceptions on the martial arts, If we are talking about practitioners perceptions I can safely say yes , that has been my experience , and I have seen it influence the perceptions of others around me. The general publics perceptions im not sure , but im quite sure it has.(paradox) Its much easier for an inquiring or curious mind to find information, theres not much to be seen on television not alot of mainstream martial arts resources for the world other than the internet , so most definately.
Demystification would go right along with perceptions wouldnt it. Most of those misconcieved notions come from the movies or ancient folklore. Being involved in the martial arts for a long time will more than likely demystify you of those myths , especially if you are exposed to other arts and not just confined to your school.
The net is an excellent tool. just depends on how people use it. For those who seek knowledge the information is out there.
As with anything there are the opportunists who have transvormed this excellent vehicle into a means to further augment audacious claims and promote propoganda. theres no escaping that. Just be thankful that it also provides a means of balancing these things out.
What I havent seen the net Do, and I do not think that it is Capable of , is offering an excellent filter for useful information, One has to do most of the filtration themselves. I suppose it is still in the early stages, but a drawback of this could be someone with little otr no experience coming across a fradulent site and giving creedence to it. Therefore feulling a totally ignorant cause and spreading the seeds of misinformation.
With mediums such as this (forum) hopefully through reason and intelligent discourse much of that sort of thing will be sifted out and nipped in the bud.
And since Im on the topic of forums and being here Id like to say that reading , and sometimes contributing to off topic posts does relax the atmosphere a great deal, and i think its necessary. If everyone was always uptight and took themselves too seriously , not alot of people would want to stick around for too long.. theres only so much to talk about martial arts at any given point in time , sometimes there is a boom in on topic sometimes a decline. Anyway thats my 2 cents , (not worth anything in usd):cool:

[Laughing Cow]

The Internet changed the way people view MA and it's study both for good and bad.

Good as listed above, so I would like to concentrate on the bad side in a sec.

The Internet like any other information gthering medium is only as good as the data put into it by people.
Many consider the internet the largest collection of oudated information available. :D

Problem is that anybody can add Data to this medium and many do so, some with good intent and some with fraudulant intent. Imagine the Internet like a huge party with masters, charlatans and students attending, finding the masters is still tough.

Now here is a problem I for the MA student(can be a blessing) in the olden days you often only had access to your Sifu and his associates and thus you did not stray from his teachings and/or get different views.

Dojo/kwoon hopping was less prevalent, students looked to their teachers for answers and guidance, whereas now many look for it on Boards like KFO, E-Budo, etc.
And with this the WHOLE student/teacher relationship changes and, IMO, will result in a lower skill level for the average student.

I always held the belief that too much knowledge/information is bad for your MA studies.

While I think the Net has been a blessing to the serious & experienced MA, I think it ahs also been a curse for the newcomers due too much Information available.

Cheers.

[ZIM]

The net is an excellent tool. just depends on how people use it. I usually view the net through the use of that overworked word 'paradigm', in this case two of them. You can either use the net as a TV or a phone.

Too many use it as a TV- they think they can learn a form or the quality of a school thru its videos, so they don't have to go touch someone's hands or even ask questions. That can be the bad side [tho lets face it, some things ARE that bad ;) ]

A better use, IMHO, is as a phone- the net allows others to meet each other, exchange info/addresses/body fluids/whatever, get impromptu gatherings of different long-lost branches going, etc. These forums are neat first-off howdy-doos for that kind of thing. it also, i guess might contribute towards survival of near-to-dying arts cuz you know where to find them.


And with this the WHOLE student/teacher relationship changes and, IMO, will result in a lower skill level for the average student. Now, you see, thats the problem with playing telephone [you call it 'chinese whispers' in UK]. Things can get misunderstood far too frequently. I might get some idea from the net to explore in class or something, and it might be taken as a challenge to the sifu's authority... well, it might be, might not.
While I think the Net has been a blessing to the serious & experienced MA, I think it ahs also been a curse for the newcomers due too much Information available. hehehe This comes off as a little elitist, sorry. The serious & experienced are sometimes using it as a tool to garden their own little fiefdoms, stamp down what they regard as heresy [nah, never happens! ;)]. Thats the flipside to what you are saying [and of what I'm saying as well, BTW]. Info is a neutral thing, thinking/discrimination is req'd to make it good. Hopefully a good MA teacher can point a way towards that [you know, the ole merde detector].


I mean, obviously there are a lot of new perspectives as well as misconceptions. But is the spread of information that abounds about the different aspects of Kungfu training and the cultural trappings that surround it reaching a critical mass through this medium? I think we haven't yet seen all that the net will eventually do, that its just begining, in fact. Just wait for it- there's going to be email-oriented qiqong cults, made-for-PC TV programs of the falun gong, MP3's that put you into some kinda theta brainwave state for meditation, zazen cushions for sitting in front of the screen, surround screens that you have to touch a certain way in order to learn the next sequence of movements [yep, punch softly with your yi/intent 'right here'], mobile units you can strap to your leg that'll give you a beeping noise for every time your left leg should hit while circle walking...yikes, i give up, even tho i'm just babbling right now... :p

[Laughing Cow]

ZIM.


[you call it 'chinese whispers' in UK].

Wouldn't know what they call it there, only been there a few times on holiday and once or twice on Business.
English is not even my mother-tongue.
;D


FWIW, I don't consider myself an experienced or serious MA, so my statement couldn't have been elitist.

An experienced MA "usually" can see the difference between the wheat and the chaff, the beginner is usually just too overhelmed with the amount of often conflicting information.

Naturally the Net is also being used to stroke certain ego's.
I could name a few MA Forums that exist solely for that purpose.
;)

[ZIM]

oh, cmon, name them...we'll keep it quiet. honest. ;)

[David Jamieson]

Yes, the internet is an ego and icon generator to be sure.
I like the T.V and Phone analogy. It gives everyone an opportunity to advertise themselves and to showcase themselves in whatever fashion they desire to do so.

In context to Kungfu, I really do think it has effected how people see martial arts and their practitioners. Imagine if you were presenting your school through a website and you were not the greatest web site creator, or not even mediochre.

To Joe nobody looking for a school, he is going to naturally be more attracted to the better design. That's human nature. Even if the better designed site is the front end of a not so good school in reality and the badly designed site belongs to a school that has great offerings. This is the same with video production, books, CD's, all forms of "marketing" presentation and all the way down to individual presentation and personal hygiene :D

really! Funny how we approach things in life.

Cheers

[Dark Knight]

What I like about the net is it gives the truth to the world. Now instructors who want to tell their students that they are superior for X reason, the students find people from other styles and see what they actually do.

Some so called “masters” who claim lineage are being exposed.

Its better for the students, now they have access to find out what others are doing, how they are training and are capable of expanding themselves due to this knowledge.

Hopefully we can get rid of:

“We don’t spar because we are too deadly”

“We don’t go to tournaments because everyone knows we would win, so we are not allowed”

“In Ju-Jitsu they have never seen a roundhouse kick and wouldn’t know what to do if you threw one”

“Im not allowed to teach our secret techniques”

“Grand Master One Hung Guy could beat them all, but he has nothing to prove”

“All styles come from TKD”

Get rid of these forever.

[David Jamieson]

In Ju-Jitsu they have never seen a roundhouse kick and wouldn’t know what to do if you threw one

ok, as an aside i find this statement a little bit funny for personal reasons.

I was sparring with a friend and he is involved with mma and modern martial sports.

While we were sparring I threw a spinning hook kick and he wasn't ready for it and didn't expect it. CMA moves can be rather unusual and truly some of these techniques are not expected.

Spear hand thrusts towards the eyes were not expected either! :D

Now my friend is good and has been doing MA for a good chunk of his life. So have I for that matter, but my leanings were usually towards the more esoteric side of things and for the last 8 or 9 years I have been religiously practicing Chinese martial Arts.

It's common sense in some arts to not take the limits of them to tournaments with you. Would you execute a a knife hand strike to the throat at a tournament? I think not, it's dangeroous, possibly lethal and totally illegal in a point match. Many Martial arts used for "for real" fighting, do not subscribe to point fighting or sport fighting methodologies. They are for real killing arts. I wouldn't take that knowledge or techniques to a tournament and not all tecahers have to cater to those folks who want to fight in tournaments and compete. Many Masters have a good deal of their art locked up with lethal techniques and this is not some empty claim liek folks poke at it.

Anyway, don't throw out the baby witrh the bathwater. I've seen guys who do martial arts for years get introduced to some basic Chin Na and their minds are blown at the effectiveness and simplicity of the techs.

They had just never been taught this stuff.

cheers

[Dark Knight]

I understand what you mean, I use a sweep (Drop to one knee, or on the ball of the foot, the other leg is extended while spinning, I’m sure many here do it) on TKD guys. It is something they haven’t seen, and when they are on one foot with a high kick it works, even if you telegraph it.

But my post was pointing out some of the stuff that instructors say to their students keeping them in the dark. I had one like that also, telling us how other schools were jealous of us, that was 25 years ago when you didn’t have access to information.

There will always be certain techniques a system has that others may not be prepared for,
Boxers are not prepared for a shoot or armbar
TKD guys for many sweeps
The list goes on for all styles.

But instructors do not need to lie to their students if they don’t know something, or to make themselves look good.

BTW Japanese Ju-Jitsu is very different from BJJ. You will see that JJJ guys are rounded better with kicking, striking and trapping. BJJ specialized in one area of Ju-Jitsu.

[Stacey]

The internet? Porno has definately lessened my jing. Seeing fight clips and other training regiments has been the best. Overall, its been bad though. I've listed to progressive this and that focussing on parts and missing the big picture.

[ZIM]

What I like about the net is it gives the truth to the world. Now instructors who want to tell their students that they are superior for X reason, the students find people from other styles and see what they actually do.

Some so called “masters” who claim lineage are being exposed.

Its better for the students, now they have access to find out what others are doing, how they are training and are capable of expanding themselves due to this knowledge. I don't think you'll ever find anyone who'll say 'my kungfu sux and is incomplete'. ;) Maybe turn it around a bit and ask yourself: how many of us actually ARE 'complete' in our respective arts? How many of us have actually STOPPED learning new things? Now, I know what you're saying here- frauds are being exposed, and that is a valuable thing in itself. Its just a question of how the student 'learns' from this 'expansion'- does the student decide that he'll just go MMA or decide to go further into his own art? Thats the question. In some ways, the net is contributing to a MMA-ization /wushuization of the arts; good classic kungfu does not look like football or wushu alot of times, yet thats what ppl expect now. :(

Anyhow, I'm really of the opinion that we're just going to see new scams emerge, given human nature and the nature of money. "Hidden secrets of MAs revealed! Only available thru this special online offer!" There'll be fantastic kungfu camps on offer- you'll get there and there'll be NO camp, just a bunch of other ripped-off ppl... And really, I think I'm already seeing some of this going on, pretty new-ish MA-oriented scams, designed just for this new-est age.

We've also got to pause to acknowledge that some very good things have already come about in part because the net is around- dogbrothers, the re-emergence of serious WMAs, the web-presence and good service of ppl like Black Taoist, etc. Keeping that going is key, IMHO

[red5angel]

I get a lot more naked kungfu pictures now that the internet has boomed!

[rubthebuddha]

zimmy,

my kung fu sucks and is incomplete ...









... but i'm working at it. :D

for me, the net has been a boon to my martial arts. had it not been for the net, i'd be ignorant of a lot of other arts, a lot of you hosers, and i'd still be reading ikf like it was a good mag.

[joedoe]

Thanks to the internet, I definitely know a lot more about other arts than I otherwise would have.