Good master?

[dragonwarrior65]

Heya all! I was thinking about going back into martial arts(I used to take it for a year or two when I was 10), and started looking around for Chinese Wushu schools around my area. I only found one school within driving distance, and I'm wondering if anyone's heard of it or had any personal experience with the grandmaster there....The school is called the ACCS, and it's website is http://www.kungfu.org. The headmaster is a guy named Frank Demaria, and his chinese name is Ma Fo Ren. He seems to be very impressive, especially regarding his lineage. I'm really interested in learning REAL chinese wushu(not flower fist), so I'm wondering, is this guy the real deal? Can y'all help me out here?

[Dai Yoshida]

You can't be serious!

There's so much wrong with this guy I don't know where to begin.

A person will pick up proper spelling of CMA phrases if they have sufficient contact with the CMA community.

Only a white guy who learned from another white guy would refer to Bagua as Pa Kua.

His knowledge of CMA and Shaolin Temple is right out of the 70's TV show.

I'd say stay away.

[David Jamieson]

bagua and pa kua are the same thing. they are both acceptable spellings.

baguazhang and pa kua chang are both said the same way and both mean the same thing.

don't let romanized spellings influence what it is. what it is , is what it is.


Only a white guy who learned from another white guy would refer to Bagua as Pa Kua.

sorry dude, but i think your perspective is skewed to say such a thing.


His knowledge of CMA and Shaolin Temple is right out of the 70's TV show.

Most people's are. Shaolin is new again. The tradition runs long, but with a few considerable breaks in the timeline and the spreading of the seeds far and wide on several occasions.

What is Shaolin now is drawn back together from recollection and return of students of students of students. the temple has only been rebuilt since 1981-2.

Many masters of Shaolin kungfu took the "journey to the west" and many of them passe dthere martial arts down to the next generation. Quite a few of whom happen to be of all races creeds and colours.

To think that the Chinese only have real kungfu hasn't been true for at least 25 or 30 years, fairly widely in the west. Nevermind all the other countries that had exposure before the west!

cheers

[Stranger]

Only a white guy who learned from another white guy would refer to Bagua as Pa Kua.

As I understand it, the two spellings can be solved by doing a google search on the terms "Pinyin" and "Wade-Giles"- two seperate ways to Romanize the Chinese language.


I think these are right:


Pinyin: baguazhang

Wade-Giles: pa kua chang



Pinyin: xingyiquan

Wade-Giles: hsing-i chuan


Pinyin: taijiquan

Wade-Giles: tai chi chuan


Get the idea?

[Dai Yoshida]

Did you guys even look at the pathetic website?

[SaMantis]

OK, I looked at it.

So far, it looks like a well-produced website with better-than-average writers/producers who know exactly what market to target the site to. The information is geared toward beginners/novices and people looking to join a CMA school who don't know jack about martial arts beyond Kung Fu: The Legend Continues and Walker Texas Ranger.

Does this make it a bad school? No. There's nothing wrong with having a good web design and a solid marketing strategy. Some of the fortune-cookie-fu philosophy in the "Message from Grandmaster" is funny, but that still doesn't prove anything.

I don't know the lineage, so I can't judge it based on that.

But then again -- that Frank DeMaria has shifty eyes... oh, and a mustache. Yeah, you can't trust that guy... ;)

[Becca]

And parially bald. You know what they say about bald guys...:D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Becca
And parially bald. You know what they say about bald guys...:D

They save money on combs?

[Serpent]

The dude on that website. He looks just like a character from one of those awful American police dramas. NYPD Blue or some shiat like that. I don't watch them, but I see the ads for them all the time. That guy looks exactly like one of the dudes in the cop show ads.

I think I may have had too much coffee today...

[Dai Yoshida]

Originally posted by Stranger


As I understand it, the two spellings can be solved by doing a google search on the terms "Pinyin" and "Wade-Giles"- two seperate ways to Romanize the Chinese language.


I think these are right:


Pinyin: baguazhang

Wade-Giles: pa kua chang



Pinyin: xingyiquan

Wade-Giles: hsing-i chuan


Pinyin: taijiquan

Wade-Giles: tai chi chuan


Get the idea?

Wade-Giles is a Eurocentric turn-of-the-century holdove from the colonial days.

Find me someone from Beijing who is not offended at being called a Pekinese.

Wade-Giles is not accepted transliteration for any Chinese govening body specifically because of its Colonial racist attitude.

Just from the utilitarian viewpoint, Wade-Giles does not accurately portray the actual pronounciation of any Chinese dialect.

In short, only a Westerner speaking to another Westerner would find it a useful rendition.

If someone from China tells you both Pinyin and Wade-Giles is acceptable, he is just being kind to an ignorant American.

[Sho]

I'm sure dragonwarrior65's intention was not to start an argument about the 101 different spelling systems. Why not just leave the romanization case as it is?


Find me someone from Beijing who is not offended at being called a Pekinese.

If someone from China tells you both Pinyin and Wade-Giles is acceptable, he is just being kind to an ignorant American.Why are you mentioning all this? You're making big generalizations here and having a rather impolite tone.

[shaolin kungfu]

I didn't see anything that immediately poopped out as a fraud. A little cheesy, but oh well. I don't know the lineage either, so it could be a complete lie.

Why do you care about spelling dai? it seems like such a small point.:confused:

[Stranger]

Pinyin was officially adopted by the PRC in 1958.

By your logic, any Chinese person that learned to Romanize their native language prior to 1958 and didn't feel a burning need to learn the "newer system", can't possibly know real kung fu. Your logic is flawed. No matter how Euro-centric Wade-Giles is/was, it was all the world had to go on until fairly recently in historical terms.

The PRC also modernized the Chinese characters in an effort to make the language easier to learn.

I didn't go to the website because I am not a CMA practitioner and did not feel comfortable judging somebody's kung fu when there are more qualified people here to do so. As a history teacher I did feel qualified to point out that both spellings are acceptable (whether or not they like it in the PRC).

Remember also that there are "other Chinas" than the PRC.

[bodhitree]

I do think the site was cheesy with his tjq classic quotes. Whats wrong with learning off a non chinese person, thats racist. My sifu is black and his sifu is black(although he learned off of a chinese person)(and I'm a whitie), does that mean there not talented, or that what there doing is not gong fu!

[David Jamieson]

Wade-Giles is not accepted transliteration for any Chinese govening body specifically because of its Colonial racist attitude.

Uh, wade giles is no longer used as widely as pinyin in China. But nevertheless, wade giles is still used widely elsewhere. Besides, do you know that the chinese language as a spoken form is comprised of many mutually non-intelligable dialects. Only when Mao enforce putonghua on the whole country did the people start to understand each other in the spoken word across regions.

I don't see a difference in your comments about whites learning from whites and a racist undertone here.

I have an issue with racism. So don't mid me if I go off about it when I see it at play.

cheers

P.S I can't believe you guys are going on about what someone looks like! ahahahahahahahaha. How shallow.plllp

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Dragon,
I remember hearing about this guy Frank back in the '80's if I am not mistaken.

His shrfu master Chang Dungsheng taught in Taiwan and is regaded as a great master of Chinese wrestling.

I remember my shrfu mentioning that master Chang passed on the goods to two americans and I think this Frank is one of them.
Call and ask.
That would make him one of the top authorities on this style.

It would also explain the spelling of the Chinese characters as that is what we use here in Taiwan.

Please post your results of further inquiries.

[apoweyn]

Dai Yoshida,


Wade-Giles is a Eurocentric turn-of-the-century holdove from the colonial days.

Find me someone from Beijing who is not offended at being called a Pekinese.

Wade-Giles is not accepted transliteration for any Chinese govening body specifically because of its Colonial racist attitude.

Just from the utilitarian viewpoint, Wade-Giles does not accurately portray the actual pronounciation of any Chinese dialect.

In short, only a Westerner speaking to another Westerner would find it a useful rendition.

If someone from China tells you both Pinyin and Wade-Giles is acceptable, he is just being kind to an ignorant American.

Come off it. Plenty of legitimate instructors still use 'tai chi', 'hsing i', and 'pa kua.' That's the way a lot of people are used to seeing the words. I personally prefer pinyin. And I personally agree that 'Peking' is a terrible romanization of 'Beijing.' But dismissing a school on that basis is foolish.

Hell, isn't 'kung fu' a pretty awful romanization too? Isn't 'gung fu' or 'gong fu' more accurate? I'm not expecting everyone to stop saying 'kung fu' though.


Stuart B.

[Stacey]

that guy is not white. He grew up in chinatown, had chinese friends and speaks fluent chinese. He had an amazing Shifu and if he was qualified to teach, then you should be there.

[SaMantis]

Hell, isn't 'kung fu' a pretty awful romanization too? Isn't 'gung fu' or 'gong fu' more accurate? I'm not expecting everyone to stop saying 'kung fu' though.

Yes but ... isn't kung fu an incorrect term for the art anyway? Isn't it technically wu shu or kuo shu? Are we all racists for calling CMA kung fu?

Wait a minute, is the proper romanized spelling wu shu? kuo shu? Am I about to get pounced by the pinyin police?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SaMantis


Yes but ... isn't kung fu an incorrect term for the art anyway? Isn't it technically wu shu or kuo shu? Are we all racists for calling CMA kung fu?

Wait a minute, is the proper romanized spelling wu shu? kuo shu? Am I about to get pounced by the pinyin police?

That way lies madness!

And if it's pronounced 'guoshu', shouldn't it be spelled that way too?

...

Yep. Madness.


:)

[David Jamieson]

wu shu is actually a fairly new term, though it does succinctly describe chinese martial arts and has been in use for a while.

Kuo Shu means "national arts" I.E, had the preference been flower arrangement, then flower arrangement would be the Kuo Shu :D

Kungfu is a term that relates to a holistic study of any field. When you achieve "Kungfu", you have achieved a high level of skill in that field, ergo, Kungfu has come to relate to martial arts. But it shoudl relate to a life path and philosophy that allows one to move through the world with mastery in all they do.

Chinese martial arts as they are sub categorized and codified are probably most correctly deemed "Chuan Fa" or fist method/fist law.

This term relates most directly to the martial arts themselves.

Kungfu is a generic term that has become popular in usage in context to martial arts of China.

cheers

[Becca]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Chinese martial arts as they are sub categorized and codified are probably most correctly deemed "Chuan Fa" or fist method/fist law.


Most of my brothers and sisters (we actually call each other that.) call it Kempo amongst our selves. To distinguish between Chinese and non-Chinese martial arts we say Chinese Kempo. But we do not ridicule those who call it Kung Fu, because it is also that. :)

[greendragon]

ah yes, i remember back in the colonial days... before the Romans changed the spelling...

[CLFNole]

Who cares about all this spelling crap. What if you speak Cantonese, the spellings would be different. Everyone uses the mandarian spellings.

Tai Chi in Cantonese is Tai Gik. Pa Gua is Baat Kwa. etc.....

So I guess if you can't spell it right you can't be qualified to teach. Great logic for a language that really isn't written in English anyhow.

If you can teach you can teach, doesn't matter what color skin you have or what shape your eyes are.

Peace.

[Suntzu]

http://www.kungfu.org/wugwojung3.shtml
looks like TKD to me :D

http://www.kungfu.org/wugwojung2.shtml
and is that Bolo in the background?...

[dragonwarrior65]

hmm......so he seems like a good guy to learn from? I dunno, he runs the only place around here(30 min and under driving time) that teaches Chinese wushu, the rest are all Mcdojos, or teach Tae Kwon Do(which I don't really want to learn)

For the record, I'm a 100% chinese guy who sees no problem learning from some white guy....it doesn't matter what color skin the guy has, as long as he knows his stuff...

also, Kung Fu is actually not a "real" term for Chinese martial arts. Kung Fu basically means hard work in mandarin....it could be used to apply toward cooking, dancing, etc., not just martial arts. The best way to refer to Chinese martial arts(IMO) is Wushu(literally Martial Arts in chinese) or Chuan Fa(Fist Method)...just my 2 C

[chen zhen]

Did anyone see that extremely bad application of a crane beak he does in the last pic? I freakin hope he broke his wrist, being so careless.:mad:

And what's the chinese guy doing? Is he hovering off the ground?

I hope that MF'ing Frank guy goes to hell together with the namat guys:D

[shaolin kungfu]

I hope that MF'ing Frank guy goes to hell together with the namat guys

Watch what you say, the walls have ears.

[chen zhen]

I know, that's why I put a :D behind the sentence.
:rolleyes:

[shaolin kungfu]

I know. I was going to put a smiley behind mine, but i couldn't decide which one. one of these two:D ;) . or maybe this one:eek: .

[chen zhen]

but anyway, the school sucks &??#%&, period. but you (dragonwarrior65) could look it up anyway, and see if it's worth it. Ask the guy questions, to find things out.
But if it's the only MA school near you, you're screwed:D
sorry to say it.

[David Jamieson]

cz-

have you attended the school and had enough [personal experience in what is offered there to make your assumption?

You see, it's not only you who makes these statements based on a singular photograph.

A little story:

After I had trained privately in Kungfu, teacher decided to open a public school. I, and some others agreed we would attend teh public school and we would help where we could.

The very first night of teh very first class, tecaher came out of teh back office to survey the situation, see how many students and talk to his private student about how things were gonna go.

He took half a step up onto a platform at the front of the club and looked around, then he slipped and started to fall backwards. I shot my hand in behind his back and steadied him onto his feet.

He was as surprised as I was that he had actually slipped.

Does this make him a bad teacher?
Does this make his Kungfu no good?

I wonder what excatly it is some of you folks are looking for in a kungfu teacher. Many seem to make this leap from comic book hero to the kwoon.

In my own observation, it is the new students and novices who are most delussional about everything and it takes a few years of hard work to smack that fantasy camp blah blah out of their minds.

Some people simply never get to see a master of kungfu for what he really is. Just another human being doing his best at what he likes to do. Nothing else.


cheers

[Unstoppable]

hey i heard that monkey boy :mad:

[shaolin kungfu]

OMG!
Everyone run!
It's NAMAT!!!!
:eek:

[Unstoppable]

yah run away CHOICKEN

[shaolin kungfu]

Ummm, whats a choicken?


I think I will run away. I wouldn't want you to hit me with a super secret ultra spider web chi blast or something.:rolleyes:

[Unstoppable]

how should i know? your the choicken not me.

ZING!!!!

[shaolin kungfu]

OK dude, I think i've learned my lesson on the WC forum. So unless Kung lek gives me permission to make fun of your style, I'm done with this.

[Unstoppable]

ANOTHER VICTROY FOR NAMAT AS THE COWARDLY CHOICKEN RUNS AWAY WITH ITS HEAD BETWEEN ITS LEGS!!!!

[shaolin kungfu]

Don't poke a bear in the zoo, man. Leave it alone.

[chen zhen]

I hear what you're saying kung Lek, you're absolutely right.
But you have to admit it. The school is, with a very high possibility, sucky.

I don't have a comic-book like vision of an ideal shifu (but the school looks like something out of a comic-book..), and I don't judge it from ONE pic, I looked the website thoroughly through.

I liked your story, and the point you made with it.:)

[Unstoppable]

WTF r u talking about bears and zoos? u r mentaly instable

[shaolin kungfu]

The word is unstable, and no, it's from a movie.

Please tell me your smart enough to know what i meant.

[Unstoppable]

ok i am smart enough to know what u ment

NOW WTF DID U MEAN???????? I HAVE NO IDEA

[shaolin kungfu]

I meant stop taunting me, or I will call into question your schools lineage, techniques, founder, and intelligence.

The analogy is that I'm like a bear in a zoo. If you poke a bear in a zoo, they'll sometimes poke back, with more force.

[Unstoppable]

HAHA LOL UR PRETTY WEAK AND RETARDED FOR A BEAR

[chen zhen]

Unstoppable, you're a little freaky, if you know what I mean:D
I've observed your posts

[Unstoppable]

HAHA thanks buddy ill take that as a complement ;)

[chen zhen]

See! there it was again;)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek


A little story:

After I had trained privately in Kungfu, teacher decided to open a public school. I, and some others agreed we would attend teh public school and we would help where we could.

The very first night of teh very first class, tecaher came out of teh back office to survey the situation, see how many students and talk to his private student about how things were gonna go.

He took half a step up onto a platform at the front of the club and looked around, then he slipped and started to fall backwards. I shot my hand in behind his back and steadied him onto his feet.

He was as surprised as I was that he had actually slipped.


Thats a pretty imaginative story you told there! Not an accurate story or memory in the least, but what the heck...its nice to know someone would want to save his Sifu!

GHD

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

Thats a pretty imaginative story you told there! Not an accurate story or memory in the least, but what the heck...its nice to know someone would want to save his Sifu!

GHD

I can't believe you broke your reign of silence to post this.

[Becca]

CZ - Why are you arguing with that bozo? Maybe if you ignore him, he will go troll somewhere else...

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by apoweyn


I can't believe you broke your reign of silence to post this.
I did not know you tracked me so closely AP. But since you do you will know that I do not come here that often in the first place.

As for a month away...my father was in the hosptal.

As for posting now...my father just passed away a few days ago and I came here for some distraction.

For the post I made above...I do not believe in ficticious stories at someone elses expense whether those stories are just due to an incorrect memory or purely made up.

As I have said to you before...if you do not like what I post...do not read them then :rolleyes:

GHD

[Ben Gash]

This guy used to write a few articles in IKF, and he does seem to know his stuff. He also genuinely did train in Taiwan and learn Shuai Jiao, taiji, Xingyi etc from Chang Tung Sheng. Some of the other Suai Jiao guys say that he overexaggerates his seniority and object to him calling himself grandmaster, but that's prolly just marketing.

[chen zhen]

Who're you calling a bozo? I argue with whoever I want.

[Unstoppable]

ya i hope ur not talking about me becca (if so u r a nut)

if u r i dont argue with CZ he is a good dude i only argue with ppl who attack me first

i am ritcheus

[chen zhen]

Thanks unstoppable;)

If it's Kung Lek you talk about becca, I don't argue with him. I respect KL, I've seen his posts on KFO through the years, and he's a good, knowledgeable guy. He knows what he's talking about (in contradiction to me, most of the time:D )

If it's dragonwarrior you talk about, he's just a newbie, and we're trying to help him, and he asked a reasonable question. It does'nt help calling him a bozo.

[Stacey]

Kung Lek's Shifu can't even walk....suddenly his posts are making a lot more sense when I take them in context.


My Shifu is bad assed at Ba Gua and is African...ergo.................................... .................................................. .................................................. ...

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

That wasn't the point stacey.

cheers

[Becca]

Originally posted by Unstoppable
ya i hope ur not talking about me becca (if so u r a nut)

if u r i dont argue with CZ he is a good dude i only argue with ppl who attack me first

i am ritcheus

Yes I was, and yes I am. (A nut) I got the impression that you were attacking him. I also got the impression that you were the NAMAT guy who almost got him banned from another board. It ****ed me off that if you were, then you had followed him to yet another baord to cause problems. If I am wrong, then I an sorry. If you are the guy who started the problems on the other board, then I'm not. :)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Stacey

KL's Sifu can walk just fine...of course...you can always pay a visit to his Kwoon though to find out for yourself.
Too bad though that KL had to tell a fallacious story to bring disrespect to his Sifu (and himself for that matter). His point which as KL stated, you totally missed. He used a story as a metaphor. But like I said his story is incorrect in its details. Since I was there, this is what happened: his Sifu stepped up onto the stage and then changed his mind and began to step back down and turn around. However KL was so close to him that in order to avoid stepping on KL's foot, his Sifu leaned to the side rear. KL thinking his Sifu had slipped on water on the floor (had just been washed), put his hand on his back as an automatic response from good reflexes gained from some private years of instruction. Thats the story, but it was not on opening day but rather at some point later in the year.
Negative stories told at someone elses expense is not a good thing to do (for example - look at your response to it)...whether they are from an inaccurate memory, a mistaken idea or for that matter accurate. It is disrespectful to the person about whom the story is told and brings disrespect to the story teller as well. When it is about one's Sifu...triple it all.

GHD

[Unstoppable]

becca okay apology excepted. me and chen zhen were just messin around you should read more careful

i dont even know what ur talking about about the other board i only posted here and like twice at cyberkwoon but that place was kinda boring

i never got anyone banned or any of that i seriously dont no what ur talking about

i dint even no there were other NAMAT students posting on forums i wonder hwo it was i prolly no him

[chen zhen]

It was ShaolinKungfu who got (nearly) banned from the WC forum for talking about namat in a ..*cough* you know, way:D I have never been banned.
But I also think I misunderstood what you where saying. Thank you for defending me, then, too;)