Do you ever exert full physical force in internal styles?

[atip]

When you strike an enemy, do you ever exert your full physical force? It seems that internal arts focus on slow and harmonic movements rather than striking as hard as you can and screaming your magick word.

But when I read about iron palm (or any other iron training for that matters) it require you to exert full physical impact - either striking your palm as hard as you can at a bag or striking an object at parts of your body. It does not sound like internal arts to me. I know Thai kickboxers who contion their body in a similar way too. They toughen up their legs and arms to withstand blow bit hitting themselves with a bottle. They also use their special massage oil. They don't claim anything internal about it, yet it appears to be effective as well.

What does chi have anything to do with this? What do most people here think? Do you think of chi as just some philosophical way to imagine or visualize certain movements, or do you really think of it as internal energy?

[Laughing Cow]

atip.

Do some research on "Fa jing" & TCC/TJQ in general it should help answer your questions and might help get rid of a few stereotypes you got.

There are plenty of Videos online that show TJQ/TCC done at full speed.

[ZIM]

When you strike an enemy, do you ever exert your full physical force? Well, yeah. But you have to define your terms differently, ie. what you mean by full, i might call empty or dead.
Do you think of chi as just some philosophical way to imagine or visualize certain movements, or do you really think of it as internal energy? Do you have any more categories? Seriously

[Repulsive Monkey]

You never ever exert full physical force in Taiji, not unless you're doing it incorrectly.

Chi is not a conceptual idea, you don't imagine it or fantasize about it....you use it.Period.

If you don't use it you're not doing Taiji.

[Daredevil]

How do you strike someone with Chi?

I hit people with jings, with energy, with force.

[dz]

*ksssssch*

*wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle ....... *


Oh, just an open can of worms. :D

[shaolin kungfu]

My chi blast will destroy all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[atip]

So most of you don't believe in
1) The blast of chi?
2) The blast of chi that projects out of the body?
3) The blast of chi that can be extend 3 inches to 3 feet out of the body?

So you don't believe in the fact that some master can knock another person out without physical impact?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by atip
So most of you don't believe in
1) The blast of chi?
2) The blast of chi that projects out of the body?
3) The blast of chi that can be extend 3 inches to 3 feet out of the body?

So you don't believe in the fact that some master can knock another person out without physical impact?

If I believe those I also believe that I can turn into Super Saiyan and that I am called Vegita.
:D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I use the appropriate and necessary force to accomplish the task at hand.. i am not concerned with the amount, just the result..

Chi blast?... i have not experienced it, i have seen "masters" do it to their own students.. i have begged them to "blast" me so i could experience it firsthand but they each refused citing potential harm to me.. That being said, i do not dismiss it.. i simply work on the more practical aspects of my own training while hoping someday to be instructed in this elusive aspect of Tai Chi.. I do believe that FaJing is a valid aspect of Tai Chi, but it is an intricate orchestration of conditioning, alignment, and subtle energy work akin to QiGong.. too often people mistake sensations of "chi" movement with intentional use of "chi", there is a major difference..

Be well..

[BAI HE]

THE WATER MARGIN BY DAN DOCHERTY



So it has come to pass. On Friday July 18th, I went with three students to Newport at the invitation of Paul Brewer to encounter his master, Dr. Shen Hong-xun. We arrived when the course had already started. We entered an upstairs hall where Dr. Shen was seated on a podium behind a table, facing his audience; also seated there on his right was a Caucasian gentleman and on his left, Jan Willem Van Overdam, from Holland.



I approached the podium and the room fell silent. I said who I was and indicated that I had the money for the course in my moneybelt (£312 per person i.e. almost £1250). I then spoke in Mandarin to Dr. Shen saying that he had said he had empty force, I told him to use it, because I was coming, again I told him to use it. I then slowly advanced and climbed up on the podium, standing over Dr. Shen. I then poured a bit more than 1 litre of Evian water over his head and shoulders, drenching him. He and Jan Willem raised their hands to try to stop me but were unsuccessful. When the bottle was empty I left with my students. I heard some people hurl imprecations at me. We drove off immediately to avoid any possible conflict.



I know some people were upset at what happened. I know Paul Brewer and others like Jan Willem and I have respect for their Tai Chi Chuan knowledge, to the extent that my actions upset them, I regret it. Dr. Shen, however, has made many claims directly and through his students about his ability to use empty force:-



"Without physical contact, and up to a distance of some metres, a person can feel and receive force created by my movements. This force can push them, make them roll on the ground - - even out of the hall's exit."



Dr. Shen has said people practice Push Hands and San Shou thinking these are Tai Chi fighting methods and goes on:-



"Whether or not the above is correct I do not want to discuss in this article. However, people do understand that everything is constantly evolving, that there is always a development from a basic to a high level and from a high level to an even higher level."



I discussed Dr. Shen's claims with experienced instructors from different schools, we were sceptical as to his ability to use empty force on someone who was not a true believer, we also were somewhat offended by the tone of the claims which seemed to suggest that people like us who didn't employ empty force were at a lower level than those who do. I wrote in to TCC magazine making what I hoped were mildly humorous remarks about the art of Ty-phoo in relation to empty force.



The response to the letter was an invitation from Paul Brewer to me and Rob Morton to attend Dr. Shen's course in Newport. The invitation was accompanied with an article by the Doctor which contained photos of him using empty force to roll a man out of a hall.



I resolved to go to Newport to see if Dr. Shen could do the things he said to me personally. Rob Morton accompanied me with two other students, one of whom is a trained para medic, we brought medical supplies with us in case someone was hurt.



My own position on empty force is that I am sceptical. It is impossible to prove that it doesn't exist. The most that can be done is to show that at a specific time and place in a specific set of circumstances empty force was not used effectively. How to do it ?



I did not want to hit or attack Dr. Shen as he is both older and much smaller than me, but he claimed higher powers than I possess. I looked at the Tao Te Ching; it says:-



"Under Heaven nothing is as soft and submissive as water, yet to attack what is hard and strong, nothing can beat it. For there is nothing with which you can replace it.

The weak overcoming the strong,

the soft overcoming the hard.

Under Heaven there is no-one who does not know of this,

but no-one can do it."



So I did it.



It was evident from Dr Shen's reaction that he did not enjoy being soaked in public and it is possible therefore to infer that if he could have prevented it, he would have. Like God, like many things empty force exists if you believe in it - it exists for you and other true believers not for pagans. I did not feel any empty force from Dr. Shen or anyone else, perhaps I will one day, if I become sensitive enough. I believe that Dr. Shen has a wealth of knowledge and experience in Tai Chi Chuan and other aspects of Chinese culture which he is able and willing to impart to others. I don't believe that he can use empty force on me. I am a pagan. "

[Repulsive Monkey]

All I can say is that I was there at that inccdent, and that I am shamed to admit I am part of the UK Tai Chi community that houses the likes of Dan Docherty.
His actions equalled nothing. His huge presumption of "if he could have prevented it, he would have" is low level thought. Dan and his henchmen just walked right in in the middle of the class and he demanded Dr Shen basically to do his stuff whilst interupting the course. His two students looked like they were ready for fight whatever happened to which it dictated the kind of animosity they were coming in with anyway.
So, there you have it Dan Docherty threw water over Dr Shen because he thought it was a valid means to determine whether he did or did not have Lin Kong Jin. How pathetic is that!!!
I'm not on Dr Shen's side or his student, but I have had the opportunity to attend some of his courses and know that he has an enviable lineage Tai Chi-wise, but the fact is, is that Dan Docherty in my eyes, and I think a lot of other peoples eyes, made a complete prat out himself by performing a childish act which one would compare to that of two children in a playground.
If that's how he goes around asessing the validity of people's skills by childishly, and on demand, trying to enrage others then fair enough.
I'm not saying whether Lin Kong Jin is what it's cracked up to be, I do believe that from an energetic point of you there is a lot one can do withyout physical touch, but if that inccident proved in Dan's mind that it provided conclusive evidence, just because decided NOT to perform, then hey, I admire his investigative and methodical techniques!!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Dr. Shen responded appropriately.. he remained calm in the face of militant ignorance.. No one has the right to assault another whether it be by water or force.. Dan Docherty, if this is a true accounting, demonstrated an indefensible ethical position... and, proved nothing aside from his own lack of good judgment..

Be well..

[Vapour]

"i have not experienced it, i have seen "masters" do it to their own students.. i have begged them to "blast" me so i could experience it firsthand but they each refused citing potential harm to me.. That being said, i do not dismiss it.."

well if one doesn't immediately sense fraud in this only-my-student-can-be-blasted-with-ki demonstration.... ;)

Usually, people who get money ripped off from this type of ki trick are not particularly poor or suffering from terminal illness so I can sort of tolerate it. On the other hand, once someone start to pry on people's desperation by claiming that certain ki practice can cure cancer or AIDS, I might throw a bottle filled with ****.

What Dan Doherty did (throwing water) was legally actionable offense. However, I have no problem with Dan walking into such seminar and calling the guy a fraud, (that is if the guy claim he can blast someone without touch).

On the other hand, one of technical advisors of our school do ki blast as his favourite demonstration trick. The guy place both of hand on your chest and then, BANG. You literally flew on the wall. He did it with quite big English guy. When this English guy's back hit the wall, his feet was about 20 cm above the floor. The more amazing thing is that you can touch his arm while he do this demonstration and his arm rarely move.

Because high level practioner can manage to blast off the opponent without appearing to do anything, it *looks* as if some sort of unseen energy was involved in such demonstration but that is not the case. The have extremely efficient body mechanics to transfer kinetic energy.

If anyone want to prove me wrong, please contact below link.

http://www.randi.org/research/

If you don't desire money, you can donate it to charitable cause.

[Former castleva]

Good one Vapour.

But you have to remember,ad hoc hypothesis is charlatan´s favourite resort. :)

What was done to this Dr.Shen sounds actually very reasonable,if a strange way to ridicule someone who seriously says ridiculous things.

:cool:

[atip]

I am going to tell a story. You can take it with a grain of salt. It's not a first hand experience, but I hear this from a reputable gentleman.

This gentleman is in charge of a big foreign business enterprise in China that has a lot to do with licensing with the Chinese government. He is in close contact with many high ranking Chinese officials. He said the Chinese government hires a lot of martial art experts who are there to do things to entertain (impress, and surprise) foreign guests. And, he has met with two such individuals.

The first one, when offered a cup of tea, could use his internal energy to suck the tea cup 2 feet across the table into his hand.

The second one asked this gentleman to hold a coin in his hand and stand 10 - 15 feet away. This guy then did *something* to project the energy - as a result the coin was bent.

For my own personal experience, I have met an expert who can make me feel his chi from 6 inches away. It felt like a push of energy (almost like he was touching me with his hand) - but not like something so devastating that could knock me out.

A taichi master who teaches Tai Chi at U of Chicago (I saw him once or twice) *claims* that he can break a light bulb by pointing at it.

That's why I am asking around here to hear what you think of it.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by atip
For my own personal experience, I have met an expert who can make me feel his chi from 6 inches away. It felt like a push of energy (almost like he was touching me with his hand) - but not like something so devastating that could knock me out.

Big deal, I could do that years before I took up Internal Martial Arts.
Except I didn't call it CHI as I didn't know the term than.
:D

Sounds like a bunch of magicians and illusionists to me.

Cheers.

P.S.: Most good MA don't call themselves Masters or like to be called thus.

[bob10]

Derren Brown is a master of empty force. His demo of the no contact punch was excellent - especially the look on the face of the "inch punch master".

Seen many demos of it, and, aside from Rich Mooney, everyone used their own students. Then again when I was a student of my first teacher, his EF worked on some (if they could see his movements), but not on me or others (guess we weren't special enough).

I've not seen any demo that has convinced me it's anything other than psychology. Stories about people moving objects are fine
(I can move a couple of things without touching them, it's a simple trick), but it's always " a friend of mine spoke to this guy who saw...."

[brassmonkey]

most empty force masters are in the field of magic

[Repulsive Monkey]

It's risible when someone throws that prats name into a debate, because Randi is the unbiased person around, aswell as being an anally retentive, critic of anything that he sees fit to question.
Randi = mud.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Is That John Ding you're refering to as your first teacher by any chance?

I agree with you if it's all psychology, then Derren Brown is indeed an Empty Force master (even though the only tools Derren uses is Hypnotism and NLP to do his tricks).
Empty force is real but I suppose in my mind/experience it usually does work best on those sensitive to, willing to do it etc and I'm quite sure if Dr Shen syas this is what he's teaching it for, but not the most reliable method for combat.

Being able to manipulate qi externally as opposed to internally I suppose makes the effect seem more exciting, and breath taking to an audience (if it works!!?).

I'll be honest I've a number of empty force situations first hand myself some I would have to say were dodgy and a few that I'm not so sure about.

[bob10]

;)

Derren Brown uses a couple of other things as well - his book is very interesting reading if you can get hold of it.

Empty force is real - hmm, I'd say that was down to definitions. It is certainly possible to move or influence people without physical contact. What I question is when people claim to be sending out "beams of chi".

I'm not disputing that the body has energy fields or that it may be possible to influence these in some way - after all, EM fields or even sound waves can influence the body. I'm just very sceptical of the performances I've seen (and they were "performances") - that includes Dr Shen too, who I've seen a couple of times.

I think as far as CMA goes there is a strong cultural influence at work here too, perpetuated by myths and legends and a strong desire to be "special" (both on the part of the teacher and the student).

[Former castleva]

What´s wrong with Randi,eh? :)

I can´t believe someone would believe such stuff but that´s just me.
I hear this master Fu Woo-Woo can bend spoons with his chi gaze. ;)
There have been such children too but somehow they failed when they had to do it under controlled conditions.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Former castleva
What´s wrong with Randi,eh? :)

Now, where should I start??
:D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I don't doubt that "chi projection" is possible, we sense it intuitively.. the problem is that as a species we haven't evolved enough to actually accomplish this with any predictability.. sure, there may be isolated, often unintended incidents of genuine "chi projection", but.. i don't currently believe there is a curriculum that can assure mastery of this elusive art.. i will be the first to study with that person whom demonstrates repeated examples of chi projection under controlled circumstances..

Yet, i think the thread has drifted from the original question of full "physical" force..

Be well..

[Former castleva]

"I don't doubt that "chi projection" is possible, we sense it intuitively.. the problem is that as a species we haven't evolved enough to actually accomplish this with any predictability.. "

Huh.
I like the fact how you seemingly succeed in bringing evolutionary biology to this subject.
If you can tell me how natural selection would favour "chi projection",I´d be glad to hear...
:cool:

My opinion anyway,is that this kind of stuff is not very good for the reputation of serious martial arts.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps, there is more than evolutionary biology at work here.. we can also evolve mentally and spiritually.. considering that current science asserts that we use only a fraction of our mental potential, +/- 15%, it would seem that there is room for improvement.. all i am suggesting is that we not dismiss the possibility.. If someone approaches a subject with a negative bias (skepticism) it is likely that that bias will rationalize itself into that person's reality.. even though we can't scientifically prove the existance of Chi, that doesn't preclude the possibility that it can exist.. There is much that our minds are capable of today that 1000 years ago was inconceivable.. the difference was those that were willing to see beyond their science..

IF Chi projection were readily accessable as a tool, it doesn't take a genius to see how natural selection would favor those skilled at its use over those not so skilled.. yeah, i know, BIG IF.... but, if the Wright brothers had just sat around and skeptically asserted that man can't fly.. well, you get the picture..

Be well..

[bob10]

I wouldn't dismiss the notion of body energy, but I have a problem with the terminology or explanations of what is going on.
The meaning of chi seems to constantly change over time. In my early days of training "chi" was the reson given when it was quite clearly bio-mechanics.

Now if you are talking about using intention to disrupt someone, I can get a handle on that. Or upsetting the body's EM field, or interrupting nerve impulses.

I feel the use of "old" terminology clouds the issue. After all, in the west we don't talk of "humours" or "vapours" any more. In this way perhaps these methods can be better undeerstood, trained and taught and we can all develop.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

Perhaps, there is more than evolutionary biology at work here.. we can also evolve mentally and spiritually.. considering that current science asserts that we use only a fraction of our mental potential, +/- 15%, it would seem that there is room for improvement.. all i am suggesting is that we not dismiss the possibility.. If someone approaches a subject with a negative bias (skepticism) it is likely that that bias will rationalize itself into that person's reality.. even though we can't scientifically prove the existance of Chi, that doesn't preclude the possibility that it can exist.. There is much that our minds are capable of today that 1000 years ago was inconceivable.. the difference was those that were willing to see beyond their science..

IF Chi projection were readily accessable as a tool, it doesn't take a genius to see how natural selection would favor those skilled at its use over those not so skilled.. yeah, i know, BIG IF.... but, if the Wright brothers had just sat around and skeptically asserted that man can't fly.. well, you get the picture..

Be well..

Firstly, unless you break the law of physics, ki blast will not happen. Causing nuclear fission or fusion to create *heat* is difficult enough. Converting energy to create *kinetic* force into one direction is far more difficult. And so far, I have never heard of someone who found a way to cause nuclear blast by training martial arts. Only amazing thing is that many people don't realise how ridiculous the idea of ki blast is.

Accusing someone of *negative* scepticism is favourite modus operendi of cults. When someone question their incredibly ridiculus claim, they turn the table and say that problem is on someone who question such false claim. He is too *negative* or *distrustful*. His *faith* is not strong enough and that is why he can't walk or god doesn't cure his cancer.

Evolution has nothing to do with life form becoming "better" or "higher". roachs, rats or germs are as evolved as human in term of evolution. "We use 15% of mental capacity" is extremely misused quote. How someone managed to define what is exact nature of mental capacity is totally beyond me, not to mention the fact that just because you can memorise more or compute faster doesn't make you cause paranormal ability. We don't hear much ghost story about computer do we? Furthermore, Wright borther *knew* living being could fly because it has been done by birds. What they did was to introduce enough engine power to give lift to glider which has been around long time before them. Only later people created the myth of someone who dreamt impossible (and they were not talking about paranomal impossiblity).

I find it amuzing that people who assert the existence of paranormal ability have more tendency to use quasi science as explanation. And they usually aren't trained in science. What they can't do is to clearly distinguish the difference between methaphysics and physics. Instead, they tend to mix these two to give explanation to paranormal, *scientific* credibility. On the other hand, people who are genunine practioner of meditative/spiritual arts rarely do that in my experience. They don't seem to have psycological need to justify spirituality in term of science.

People who believe in ki trick tend to be middle class with new age tendency. Coincidentally they tend to have less children. So if evolution has it's way, ki gene would eventually be eliminated in the future. They also fail to understand a very simple fact. Just because you can levitate or do ki blast doesn't make you a *better/nicer/sincere* person. So I guess evolution are at work by eliminating dumb gene.

[Former castleva]

Hey,that was pretty d@mn well posted of you Vapour.

"Evolution has nothing to do with life form becoming "better" or "higher". roachs, rats or germs are as evolved as human in term of evolution. "We use 15% of mental capacity" is extremely misused quote. "

Exactly and if this mental capacity thing has anything to do with popular notes about how much one generally uses neural capacity...that´s a myth,which has been buried by neuroscience.

"People who believe in ki trick tend to be middle class with new age tendency. Coincidentally they tend to have less children. So if evolution has it's way, ki gene would eventually be eliminated in the future. They also fail to understand a very simple fact. Just because you can levitate or do ki blast doesn't make you a *better/nicer/sincere* person. So I guess evolution are at work by eliminating dumb gene."

lol at ki gene.
Well you know how modern society works,selection pressure is still there but it is being fought.

[ZIM]

Do you ever exert NO physical force in internal styles? :confused: ;)

[Why not move on? Hmm? Those who don't 'buy into' empty force never will]

good post vapour

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Firstly, unless you break the law of physics, ki blast will not happen. Causing nuclear fission or fusion to create *heat* is difficult enough. Converting energy to create *kinetic* force into one direction is far more difficult. And so far, I have never heard of someone who found a way to cause nuclear blast by training martial arts. Only amazing thing is that many people don't realise how ridiculous the idea of ki blast is. ...

Well.. Gosh.. I wonder if there are laws of physics that we simply haven't the means to measure or even perceive yet.. I am not suggesting nuclear fission or fusion, i am suggesting there may be relationships of consciousness/energy/manifestation (re: Hiesenberg experiments) that are not even in the infancy of practical comprehension, but offer unimaginable potential.. "Only amazing thing is that many people".. let science and laws confine the potential of their existence..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Accusing someone of *negative* scepticism is favourite modus operendi of cults. When someone question their incredibly ridiculus claim, they turn the table and say that problem is on someone who question such false claim. He is too *negative* or *distrustful*. His *faith* is not strong enough and that is why he can't walk or god doesn't cure his cancer.

Accusing someone of cultish behavior is favourite modus operendi of skeptics.. (cute, huh?).. I have no problem with questioning, only the associated prejudice, like: it can't work, it wont work, etc.. unbearable boors, arrogant in their assumptions that the universe abides by their concepts, unwilling to yield the possibility that something could exist outside their limits of perception..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Furthermore, Wright borther *knew* living being could fly because it has been done by birds. What they did was to introduce enough engine power to give lift to glider which has been around long time before them. Only later people created the myth of someone who dreamt impossible (and they were not talking about paranomal impossiblity).

Here, i will offer only my own commentary... what a sad existence, where dreams are not realized.. where the measurement is more important than that which is measured.. "paranormal impossibility", steeped with prejudice, seeks to imply/insinuate that paranormal events are not possible, a childish mindset... if "I" can't see it, feel it, hear it, touch it, taste it, measure it, it doesn't exist.. What i sense most about skeptics is the fear that others have it and they simply can't get it.. so they desire to make it go away..

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the other hand, people who are genunine practioner of meditative/spiritual arts rarely do that in my experience. They don't seem to have psycological need to justify spirituality in term of science.

Nor do i.. i only used a reference to it in a posting on this forum.. it was others, insecure in their science's ability to explain reality, that assaulted the reference.. Personally, i don't know all the answers, i simply don't preclude answers that don't fit my beliefs.. you, know, kind of an anything is possible kind of thing

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


People who believe in ki trick tend to be middle class with new age tendency. Coincidentally they tend to have less children. So if evolution has it's way, ki gene would eventually be eliminated in the future. They also fail to understand a very simple fact. Just because you can levitate or do ki blast doesn't make you a *better/nicer/sincere* person. So I guess evolution are at work by eliminating dumb gene.

Here we have a person lauding the merits of science while demonstrating prejudicial behavior (this is a contradiction in case the semantics are too elusive).

__________________________________________________

All this aside, i find science an attractive mental exercise and valid investigative tool, but.. it's just a tool, the value is in the mind that uses the tool ..there are genuine connections between science and metaphysics currently at the forefront of physics investigations today.. "The Self Aware Universe" is good suggested reading.. I hope we can find common ground rather than exploit differences in perception.. hopefully, we can agree that we are seeking the same thing regardless of the path we use to get there.. and, we will each find our paths less troubling if we respect each other's perspectives regardless of our beliefs...

Be well..

[Laughing Cow]

Lin Kong Jing as a skill has been documented in a few arts, the one I know requies physical touch.

"Empty Force" or no-touch manipulation I do not believe in as yet.

Most of those so called "Masters" that claim that seem to share certain traits or backround information.
Now here is how I evaluate those:
1.) Who taught them, who taught their teachers, etc. Show me some lineage for those skills.
2.) Why is there no historical documentation/proof about those skills.
3.) Can any of their students show the same skill.
4.) Is the skill useful in real everyday situation.
5.) Can the skill be used without any form of preparation.
6.) What are the requirements to master that skill. (Heard of 8hrs daily Zhang Zhuang for years)
7.) Where can I sign up for a course?
and so on.

I believe that the human body is capable of many great things, and I also believe that the mind can be fooled and deceived.

Cheers.

[Vapour]

Firstly, bit of correction. The term I used *kinetic energy* was not appropriate. I should have said kinetic force. And to create kinetic force require mass. I just find it incredible that some people believe that it is possible to materialise something by thought.

I also happen to know a physicist. He once bumped into a philosophy seminar and topic was philosophical implication of theory of relativity. He listend for a while and thought that entire people in the seminar were idiots because they were clueless. Hiesenberg experiments is not going to help to justify the existence of ki blast. For that matter, there is nothing in science which can justify ki blast no matter how we progress in realm of science because, as I said, science deal with physics not metaphysics. My *perception* are certainly open to discoevry of new scientific law which we don't know yet. I also know that I'm not going to discover God, ki or secret of love by taking up science.

Though I'm agnostic, I'm more open to religous belief because *miracle* by definition happen outside of law of physics. However, my position is that miracle is pointless in term of spirituality because that only mean God/prophet/buddah can *do* something but it is not necessarily indication of *intent* of action. I know few people who are religious whom I respect not because they belive in the second coming but because they are good people and their faith has something to do with it. To commit oneself in martial arts, religion, work, marriage or whatever pursuits you do is good platform to test one's intent, hence it's all Dao.

[atip]

Vapour:

The posts are too long, and I haven't finished them yet. But I would like to throw this question out anyway (not sure if it has been answered).

If the law of physic is not to be broken, what is your thought on QI? How is the fact that you can mentally guide the movement of QI in your body supported by any science? WHat is QI? For the simplest thing like making themselves feel the tingle or heating their hands up, how is that defined in the modern science?

Quite a few Qigong books (Shou-Yu Liang et al, Mantak Chia et al, and many more appear to think of QI has devine power. Liang even talked about drawing QI from spritiual entitiy or deity. How does that fit in with your reasoning?

[atip]

Vapour:

The statement that only God/prophet/buddah can do miracles is not true. I have read accounts of many others who weren't born with these gifts, but have attained it through self cultivation and training.

In fact, quite a few QiGong books talk about such self cultivation. I used to be an athiest most of my life, but events that have occured in the past 5 years and the people I have met have changed me.

I am very curious to here your explantion on QI. What do you think it is?

[fragbot]

Originally posted by atip
When you strike an enemy, do you ever exert your full physical force? It seems that internal arts focus on slow and harmonic movements rather than striking as hard as you can and screaming your magick word.


Last time I hit an enemy? Who are you? Wong Fei Hung in Once Upon a Time In China.

Anyhow, last person I tried to hit was one of my compadres. And no, I didn't hit him with full physical force. I simply tried to stay aligned and relaxed. Did I succeed? Not as well as I'd liked, but better than most people I suspect.



What does chi have anything to do with this? What do most people here think? Do you think of chi as just some philosophical way to imagine or visualize certain movements, or do you really think of it as internal energy?

BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVISSIMO!

Without a doubt, you've written a subtle troll. Act just starry-eyed enough to not look like a total fool. You're balance is tremendous.

What do I think? I think if you ask 10 people on this forum with qi is. You'll get 10 different answers that range from the ludicrous and magickal (and, yes, I added the k purposefully) to the mundane and probable. Those subscribing to the ludicrous and magickal will speak a wholly different language from the mundane and probable. But you undoubtedly knew that already.

F*** it, I need another beer.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Now, back to the original question.. Do i ever use full "physical" force in internal styles.. Yes, for training purposes i use full physical force.. this is to tone and condition my physical body (not to specifically build muscle mass, but there has been some increase).. i use the analogy of building a good road for my race car (chi)..the better the road, the better the car can operate.. the more practiced and conditioned the body, the more efficiently and expressively we can use our "life energy" (Chi)..

My own understanding of Chi is that force or energy that animates the mass of chemicals and compounds we call our bodies.. without the "life-force" (Chi, or whatever your favorite name may be), we cannot produce a living being.. we cannot find or define Chi as a tangible substance, so.. it suits many people/cultures to refer to it as divine (unexplainable).. What is apparent is that through training we can correct body alignment/structure and direct our "life-energy" to cause muscle/bone movement in such a manner as to "appear" mystical/magical.. Soooo, in practice/training, and on inanimate objects, i do use full-force to measure the effectiveness of my training..

Be well...

[Vapour]

atip, any human being contain potential to become a buddha. But often, the term refer to the first buddah, Gotama Siddhatta. The scripture record many miracle he performed, which has been typically associated with yoga master of ancient society. However, in many branch of Buddhism, such aspect of buddah are rarely emphasised.

My point is that miracle/supernatural is very little to do with one's character. I just cannot see why some people try to learn how to levitate. Only way I can profit from it is by charging money teaching other people how to levitate, totally circular way of justfiying it's usefulness. As of me learning martial arts, I don't really think I need to learn how to fight because I'm old enought to avoid most trouble. I do taijiquan/judo because it's keep me fit and I enjoy the process of learning as well of competitive aspect of judo and tuishou.

The concept of ki/qi was introduced to the West mainly in form of qigong and martial arts. Hence it is often translated into English as energy. This is not correct. In Orient, anything which are not tangible are ki. In Japanese (and Chinese/Korean), air=kuki= vacuum ki, electricity = denki= electric ki, magnetic = giki. We say "watashi tach wa ki ga a u" = our ki match = "we get on well". "kare wa ki ga arai" = he has lough ki= he is short temptered. "Ki ga omoi" = my ki is heavy = I'm feeling down, ki ga tuku = I attached ki= I noticed, ano hito ni ki ga aru = I fancy that person, ki ni yamu = I worry. We don't treat ki as supernatural. Emotion/intention/feeling are not scientific cocept for sure but it's not supernatural concept either.

As of ki in qigong/martial arts term, I think main emphasis is on awareness. In term of science, it's probably to do with electric impulse of nervous system but hey, I'm not medical reseracher. For example, when human body tense up, muscle act as insulator. By relaxing muscle, you can release you body heat from that particular point. In our school, one of very advance training is to stand in single whip posture and switch colour of palm from red to white from your left palm to the right. I also read some research using CAT scan, which found that certain accupuncture point do stimulate part of brain.

My taijiquan instructor occasionaly can guess if someone else used his favourite longsword. He say he can feel something different when he grab his sword. He is also quite sensitive to electricity. He can tell when microwave is on.

On the other hand, once thing I learned is that these scientific explanation give little hep in improving my taijiquan. Because I grow up in culture which takes ki for granted, I don't really bother with whether ki is real or not. It does help my martial arts. But I don't believe I can create a cake in front of me just because I think it's there.

[[Censored]]

Firstly, unless you break the law of physics, ki blast will not happen.
Which law specifically is being broken?

Converting energy to create *kinetic* force into one direction is far more difficult.
Every person on the planet converts energy into kinetic force every day. It's not at all difficult.

And so far, I have never heard of someone who found a way to cause nuclear blast by training martial arts.
I have. :) But I haven't seen it in person.

Furthermore, Wright borther *knew* living being could fly because it has been done by birds. What they did was to introduce enough engine power to give lift to glider which has been around long time before them.
Ki blast is a *common* skill. We are talking about a blast strong enough to knock someone over, which not so common. Seems to match the analogy well.

People who believe in ki trick tend to be middle class with new age tendency. Coincidentally they tend to have less children. So if evolution has it's way, ki gene would eventually be eliminated in the future. They also fail to understand a very simple fact. Just because you can levitate or do ki blast doesn't make you a *better/nicer/sincere* person. So I guess evolution are at work by eliminating dumb gene.

ROTFL. Describes my Aikido experience perfectly. :D

[Vapour]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]Firstly, unless you break the law of physics, ki blast will not happen.
Which law specifically is being broken?

Converting energy to create *kinetic* force into one direction is far more difficult.
Every person on the planet converts energy into kinetic force every day. It's not at all difficult.


I'm not sure whether you are just taking **** or not.

Ki blast violate 2nd law of thermodynamics. To creat knietic force, you have to have mass. Yes we create kinetic energy all the time but we can do that because we use our body. Ki blast create kinetic force without any bodily contact. So where mass (ki ball) come from. And energy equivelant to mass of a baseball is so hot that human will evaporate.

Btw, why hasn't anyone said any DBZ joke? :D

[Former castleva]

Ki violates the laws of biophysics. ;)

Oh yeah.Humans could not evolve ki blast skills because evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics too... :D :rolleyes: :D
Lowly reasoning.

[Shuul Vis]

GDA and i know a teacher that claims he can knock us across the room without touching us. The first time he said so was a bit of a shock. However, we both decided that if he says it again we are going to call him on it. Why should we aloow such a person to make such claims in this world? Sure let them claim they can kick your ass or something who cares? But when they claim they can bend the rules of physics then they better put their money where thier mouth is or quit trashing our martial arts reputation with science fiction.

i mean its hard enough to get credibility in chinese martial srts anyway.

[atip]

When someone (eg., Rich Mooney) makes such a claim, isn't his entire career at stake? It was rumored that he even went for the scientific test. If he wasn't so confident in his ability, why would he even go for the test? There must have been ways for him to avoid it. If he was so cooperative, shouldn't that say something about how he thinks he can do it? Whether he can really do it or not is another question, but I think that he fully believes he can do it.

[Laughing Cow]

atip.

He failed the Test.

The test was conducted by someone who, IMHO, is as much a charlatan as he is.

Cheers.

[Empty Fist]

Without getting into Chi/Qi/Ki blasts or projections and getting back to the original question, force is used in external styles such as Karate and external styles of Kung Fu. These external styles employ the limbs with limited use of the whole body. Internal styles such as Tai Chi Chuan use various intrinsic energies through relaxation/sung and use the entire body as one unit. The end result is the releasing all of the body’s energy like a cracking whip.

[Vapour]

I found a similar thread in aikido forum.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=594

[Former castleva]

I cannot see how "external" styles such as karate etc. would not employ the whole body.
I find internal/external classifications ridiculous myself but whatever one´s preferred method is,there seems to be no rational reason to set one above other.

[Daredevil]

Yeah, if using intrinsic energies and whole body power makes an art Internal, there are a hell of a lot of internal styles around. Personally, I have no clue what makes an art "internal", since I don't much care about it. Sure, there are differences between styles (duh), but there doesn't seem to be a widely accepted definition for what really makes an art internal.

As for "empty force", moving folks without touching ... sure it exists. A very basic demonstration is telling a friend to "come over here" and voila, he comes over. Amazing isn't it? Martial applications are more novel and harder to execute.

Usually the strange is just the mundane viewed with flawed perception and flawed understanding, complicating matters which are essentially very simple.

[ZIM]

I look at the question of 'empty force' as non cogitamus, ergo nihil sum , it doesn't really matter. Nobody can explain it to me, I'm not at any level to learn it, and the ones who go around advertisisng it prolly don't have it- tho who knows. That said, hopefully i'll see it some day... I think maybe its useful as a training device, for sensitization. Now the question is: will training to become sensitized improve me in a good way? I can't feel it now, so why become *weaker*? I'd rather just be like "yeh, screw your chi blasts, old man- you have dishonored my family, now you must pay!" or whatever...

For those who want to go into the science of it all:
this link seems to have a lot of it. (http://twm.co.nz/ind3.html)

TCB might like this..IIRC you like conciousness studies. (http://twm.co.nz/consciousness.html) :)

As for "Full physical force" has anyone pointed out that IMAs attempt to do this, in the sense of 6 combos, structure, etc.? To me, this means 'full', as opposed to 'empty'. Emptyfists comment is closest i think to this idea.

Why do we get bogged down in such things, anyhow? ;) Tuck or no tuck? :p

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Most skeptics i have met actually believe in "Chi" and its miraculous claims.. they simply use skepticism as bait in their search for proof.. if it were not so, what would be the motivation to waste time in a forum such as this ? Hopefully, the motivation is not to evangelize or convert those that accept the claims with some reserevation, of course.. I am amazed at the people that seek and train in a system that openly calls itself "Internal", then set about the task of complaining that the internal claims are false.. strange contradiction from my point of view.. The obvious difference between internal and external styles is the training methods and methodology used to accomplish similar tasks..

Be well..

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

I am amazed at the people that seek and train in a system that openly calls itself "Internal", then set about the task of complaining that the internal claims are false.. strange contradiction from my point of view.. The obvious difference between internal and external styles is the training methods and methodology used to accomplish similar tasks..

[/B]

Heya,

I don't think any art calls itself "internal", some practisioners do. Others don't care for a label. The whole term is a rather new one in the field of martial arts.

As for training in an "internal" system and shying away from the term, I don't see how putting a label on the way I practice has any effect on that way of practice. Words, shwords.

And just for curiosity's sake, what is the obvious difference in training methods between internal and external? I'm not saying there isn't a difference and that I haven't seen one myself, but again, everybody seems to define the divide differently. We're far from an accepted, universal paradigm. So, I'm just curious to know what's yours? What exactly in the methods of training is it that separates one from the other?

When two things are different enough, we label one X and the other Y. Supposedly internal and external are so different to warrant two different labels. However, when most everybody you ask defines the divide differently, these labels lose all meaning, at least to me.

I return to the point that I don't need a name for the stuff I do. Words don't make it work. Practice does.

[Vapour]

Firstly, both external arts and internal arts can make fraudulant calim of empty foce. Ki blast is an theoretical/imaginery extension of fa jing. And both Shaolin and Wudang Kung Fu train fajing skill.

Secondly, only acceptable definition of external and internal style I can think of is that Shaolin/external kung fu are based on Buddhist/Yoga practice which came from India while Wudang/internal kung fu are based on Taoist/qigong practice which come from China. The argument that internal is unique because it's soft, non agressive arts which contain much *higher* practice of internal practice never worked for me. Xingyi is very agrresive arts. Many style of Shaolin Kung Fu contain neigon not to mention that they have plenty of spirituality from Zen Budhism.

However, I think there are distnict difference in flavour of training method. External style tend to teach more techniques/forms. Their method seems to be to study correct performance of many technique so that one eventually grasp the principle hidden behind it. On the other hand, internal style teach fewer forms. In my style of Taijiquan, there are less than 100 moves (the foundation form 37 moves, two push hand form each consisting only 4 and long sowrd form 54 moves) in entire curriculum. The approach is to teach only fundamental move then study how these basic move manifest into different techniques.

Also, external style tend to be more strict about the external aspect of posture. Stuffs like positions and shapes of hands, direction of your feet and so on have to be exact. This not only teach correct performance of technique but it also force strength and flexibility of body to catch up to the requirement of the form. Once you become comfortable with the form, you relax internally. In internal style, they tend to emphasise certain aspect of fundamental at the expense of technique. For example, when I first learned raise hand posture, my shoulder tensed up, I was told to lower the hand to chest hight instead so that I learn to relax my shoulder. Eventually, I could raise my hand without tensing up my shoulder but that happened gradually. Similarly, my stance used to be smaller and higher in the beginning. As my relaxation and leg strength improved, i naturally relaxed into lower and bigger posture. In my style, everyone perform form differently depending on the level of their internal aspect (strength, flexibility and relaxation) as well as understanding of taijiquan principles.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree, words are just tools we use to link similar concepts between people for the purpose of communicating.. but, the concept, particularly "internal", is the issue regardless of the words we use.. As for "Labels", i suspect that in choosing a style to train in, you relied on "words" to some degree to formulate, conceptually, a training system that suits you.. so, it would appear that words do have an effect on how you train, labels do influence your practice.. even if only to point to the desired concept..

Again, short of detailing a history and syllabus of disciplines.. i assert that the training differences are obvious.. slow/fast, relaxed/strenuous, energy work/muscle work, etc..


I return to the point that I don't need a name for the stuff I do. Words don't make it work. Practice does.

without the guidance of "words", without the history of "words", without someone using "words" to instruct you as to how to practice, what would you be practicing? I believe that it is possible to teach without words, i have seen it done.. but, here, now.. we rely on the words we are reading to communicate some very interesting ideas.. beyond the communication, doing (practice) turns the communicated concept into reality..

Internal/external are different paths to a common goal, self-mastery.. better or worse are arbitrary values assigned according to desirability....

Be well..

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob


As for "Labels", i suspect that in choosing a style to train in, you relied on "words" to some degree to formulate, conceptually, a training system that suits you.. so, it would appear that words do have an effect on how you train, labels do influence your practice.. even if only to point to the desired concept..



Yes, arguing totally against that point would be pretty ignorant. However, I see too much influence and value put on these labels, instead of what they actually mean.

As for how I chose my style, words did play their part in the initial interest, but the actual deeds -- the skill and power manifested by my teacher -- made me stick to it.



Originally posted by TaiChiBob


Again, short of detailing a history and syllabus of disciplines.. i assert that the training differences are obvious.. slow/fast, relaxed/strenuous, energy work/muscle work, etc..



I don't think these things you mention are so simple. It's not always one or the other. Often times it's a bit of both.

For example, you need muscles to move your body. You move your body in the internal arts. Hence, you USE your muscles in the internal arts. Not necessarily how you would use them in other arts (and not only your muscles), but nonetheless. Similarly, a boxer (for instance) is not entirely tensed. They learn relaxed power as well. And since some "internal" guys like to make points of this, they too use their tendons and sinews for power generation, just like any other human being (again, just maybe not quite like an exponent of an "internal" art).

Similar examples can be made out of energy work, slow/fast training, etc.

Or heck, maybe I'm just too much of a Baji guy. We stand uneasily (to others, not me) on the internal/external border, but that is a whole different discussion and overall irrelevant, since I can be taught the proper training methods without once requiring the either of these controversial terms. Hence, for my purposes, this particular point has remained that way -- irrelevant.


Originally posted by TaiChiBob


Internal/external are different paths to a common goal, self-mastery.. better or worse are arbitrary values assigned according to desirability....



I'll end this reply with a note of agreement on this one.

Later.

[RAF]

Its not to deny that there are phases of training and development you can label internal in a system, its when the entire system becomes classified as either an internal system or simply an external system that just doesn't seem to fit (of course, my experience is coming from baji and basic training in pigua).

I've heard people actually state that Chen's taiji is not really taiji because its too external in contrast to Yang style. It seems many people fall into the trap of believing that if is played slowly then its an internal system.

You know Daredevil, you might be onto something. Maybe its a baji bias to see systems having both characteristics.

I dunno know.

[[Censored]]

I'm not sure whether you are just taking **** or not.
Does it matter?

Ki blast violate 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Is this the law that says that the entropy trend must increase over time? How is this being violated?

Ki blast create kinetic force without any bodily contact.
According to whom?

So where mass (ki ball) come from.
Who said a ki ball has mass? BTW I won't take responsibility for defending any and all definitions of "ki ball" by assorted internet kooks.

And energy equivelant to mass of a baseball is so hot that human will evaporate.
That is irrelevant and misleading. Who is talking **** now? :)

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by RAF

I've heard people actually state that Chen's taiji is not really taiji because its too external in contrast to Yang style. It seems many people fall into the trap of believing that if is played slowly then its an internal system.

You know Daredevil, you might be onto something. Maybe its a baji bias to see systems having both characteristics.

I dunno know.

Bagua is another "internal" art that is done fast at higher levels. Having studied both chen and yang, I'll take chen any day. FWIW

[Muppet]

Hsing I is very aggressive, but on inspection there is a softness to it which makes it work differently from say, karatel.

Like all striking arts, keeping the body relaxed (or more accurately, eliminating any unnecessary tenseness) is important..

But similar to taiji or bagua, hsing i doesn't try to meet direct force on force if it can. For instance, instead of the typical karate block against a punch, there's a lot of rolling-away and/or deflection. The subtle circular motions and spiralings of limb and body are there for a reason. It's not necessary, but it makes the moves so much better.

Also, it's no mere coincidence that in general, all three arts insist on a particular body structure--head suspended, back slightly bowed out, chest concaved in, etc..

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Vapour
Firstly, both external arts and internal arts can make fraudulant calim of empty foce. Ki blast is an theoretical/imaginery extension of fa jing. And both Shaolin and Wudang Kung Fu train fajing skill.

Secondly, only acceptable definition of external and internal style I can think of is that Shaolin/external kung fu are based on Buddhist/Yoga practice which came from India while Wudang/internal kung fu are based on Taoist/qigong practice which come from China. The argument that internal is unique because it's soft, non agressive arts which contain much *higher* practice of internal practice never worked for me. Xingyi is very agrresive arts. Many style of Shaolin Kung Fu contain neigon not to mention that they have plenty of spirituality from Zen Budhism.

However, I think there are distnict difference in flavour of training method. External style tend to teach more techniques/forms. Their method seems to be to study correct performance of many technique so that one eventually grasp the principle hidden behind it. On the other hand, internal style teach fewer forms. In my style of Taijiquan, there are less than 100 moves (the foundation form 37 moves, two push hand form each consisting only 4 and long sowrd form 54 moves) in entire curriculum. The approach is to teach only fundamental move then study how these basic move manifest into different techniques.

Also, external style tend to be more strict about the external aspect of posture. Stuffs like positions and shapes of hands, direction of your feet and so on have to be exact. This not only teach correct performance of technique but it also force strength and flexibility of body to catch up to the requirement of the form. Once you become comfortable with the form, you relax internally. In internal style, they tend to emphasise certain aspect of fundamental at the expense of technique. For example, when I first learned raise hand posture, my shoulder tensed up, I was told to lower the hand to chest hight instead so that I learn to relax my shoulder. Eventually, I could raise my hand without tensing up my shoulder but that happened gradually. Similarly, my stance used to be smaller and higher in the beginning. As my relaxation and leg strength improved, i naturally relaxed into lower and bigger posture. In my style, everyone perform form differently depending on the level of their internal aspect (strength, flexibility and relaxation) as well as understanding of taijiquan principles.

Excellent Post!

[Vapour]

Originally posted by [Censored]
I'm not sure whether you are just taking **** or not.
Does it matter?

Ki blast violate 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Is this the law that says that the entropy trend must increase over time? How is this being violated?

Ki blast create kinetic force without any bodily contact.
According to whom?

So where mass (ki ball) come from.
Who said a ki ball has mass? BTW I won't take responsibility for defending any and all definitions of "ki ball" by assorted internet kooks.

And energy equivelant to mass of a baseball is so hot that human will evaporate.
That is irrelevant and misleading. Who is talking **** now? :)

Opps, it's the first one not the second. It's been a while since my high school physics. :D

As of second question, it's because F=MxA so you can't have "empty force". So something with mass have to be there to blast someone. I think some people confuse force with energy because of the idea of "energy" ball.

And since someone mention evolution violating 2nd, here is an another trivia. It would have been the case if this planet is a closed system. Fortunately, this planet receive constant energy from sun so evolution can happen withoug violating 2nd.

[Vapour]

As of the original question, it's just occured to me that one do exert "full" physical force in correct fajing. However, instead of exerting full physical strength of arm, one ought to exert full physical strength of entire body especially leg.

To do that beginner in my school are told not to punch when you punch, i.e. not trying to move arm at all. Instead, we sort of keep arm totally relaxed so that arm get thrown forward when the body step forward. As you get better at it, you start to relax your waist and start to feel the connection of force from the ground/leg to your fist. At this point, we start practicing fast form.

Again you can have two polar opposite approach to it. One could do it in tai chi way or you could do makiwara hitting for 1000 times then your arm and body get so tired that you have no other way but to punch relaxed. Plus, I did notice after doing judo for a while that as my body become more powerful, I can relax much easily without collapsing.

[Former castleva]

;)

Yup.
2nd law was but a joke.

[[Censored]]

Opps, it's the first one not the second. It's been a while since my high school physics.

Oh, I thought we were having a REAL physics discussion, but now I hear you have only studied physics at the high school level. :p First law is not violated either BTW.

As of second question, it's because F=MxA so you can't have "empty force".

:rolleyes:

F = M x A
E = M x C^2
E / C^2 = M
F = (E / C^2) x A

QED. Consider yourself refuted. LOL. Don't ever misrepresent yourself as a logical person again...or I'll take your internet kung fu! :D

[Fu-Pow]

A couple of points:

1) As some people already pointed out Chi is a metaphysical concept. Bioelectricity is a physical concept. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

2)I don't believe in anything that violates physical laws. Lin Kong Jin is bull****.

2) Internal/External is a semantic argument. I do an "Internal" and an "External" style. There are differences but I don't think any more difference between two different "External" styles or two different "Internal styles." There are differences in body use that are reflective of differences in strategy.

3) I like the analogy that Chen Xiao Wang uses. Martial arts is like looking at something as you walk up a spiral staircase. Even if you are near the same level as another person you are going to see things slightly differently. It's not that one person is right and the other is wrong. It's that you perspective is different.

4) All authentic Chinese Martial Arts style make use of efficient use of body and mind. If we look outside the Eastern tradition to something like the Alexander Technique we see that there are many similarities with CMA's. It emphasizes that the human body does not consist of simple hinges and levers. This is a useful analogy when discussing biomechanics but truely efficient motion is based on curves and spirals. The human musculature is formed around a double helical spiral. Poorly done karate treats the body as though it was a stick figure. The "Internal" arts especially pay attention to the spiral nature of the human body and seek to link all the spirals into a unified whole. "External" arts do this as well but not always to the same level of unification.

5) "External" arts are not all about force on force. We also have deflection, redirection and something called "leaky force" which is partial deflection. We have "soft" and "hard" techniques.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Opps, it's the first one not the second. It's been a while since my high school physics.

Oh, I thought we were having a REAL physics discussion, but now I hear you have only studied physics at the high school level. :p First law is not violated either BTW.

As of second question, it's because F=MxA so you can't have "empty force".

:rolleyes:

F = M x A
E = M x C^2
E / C^2 = M
F = (E / C^2) x A

QED. Consider yourself refuted. LOL. Don't ever misrepresent yourself as a logical person again...or I'll take your internet kung fu! :D

It's a bit of an excuse but Japanese high school physics is bit advance usually covering first year of university physics in U.S. The problem is that it was bloody 10 years ago. That's why I couldn't remember which law of thermodynamics though I rememer the content.

Above equation doesn't prove anything. You just went round in circle because in the last equation, there is E term which is dependent on non zero Mass for it to be none zero. If mass is zero, then e have to be zero because E=MxC^2

Ask any uni physics student if you want. You cannot have force with zero mass.

If you want, I can up the game by introducing differential equation. The first equation you put is not accurate and only a special case when mass does not change.

F=rate of change of momentum
Momentum = Mass x Velocity

There fore
F=(rate of change of Mass) x (rate of change of velocity)
F= dm/dt x dv/dt

Gosh, I feel idiot going back to high school stuff. :D

[[Censored]]

Let X be false.
Therefore X is not true.
This is neither discussion nor investigation. This is masturbation.

Gosh, I feel idiot going back to high school stuff.

Not only that, but you've gone to so much trouble to prove that "ki balls" do have mass! Sir, I applaud you. :D Though I suspect that their mass _approaches_ 0.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Let X be false.
Therefore X is not true.
This is neither discussion nor investigation. This is masturbation.


Me = Master debater

;)

[norbula]

Regarding empty force, if it cannot be effective against strangers, then it is simply not useful as a martial art. If it is only effective against one out of three people (as Paul Dong asserts), then I wouldn't spend 3-5 years training for it. However, if it can strengthen your qi appreciably, then I do see its application as a healing modality, and this in itself is a very good thing to have. However, it shouldn't be positioned as a martial arts technique.

I do feel it is kind of obscene to charge people 100/hr to acquire this "art". However, that is what capitalism is all about, and let the buyer beware. Therefore, if people are willing to pay for it, then that's fine. Just don't position it as a martial art, or as a kind of souped up spirituality. By comparison, faith healer/evangelists like Benny Hinn can knock out row after row of people, and this makes qigong masters look like rank amateurs. Mr. Hinn is even making a lot more money than the typical qigong dude. He does have a unique marketing angle, positioning himself as a "man of god". So, fine, EF is good for cultivating qi, it doesn't make you super man, super woman, or super spiritual. If you really want to prove it, then volunteer for a double blind scientific study with respectable scientists (let's face it, Randi has an angle as well).

[Samurai Jack]

Give me my stick back, and leave that horse carcass alone!